Turbine in Your Tank: Wind-Powered Cars

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/03/27/turbine-in-your-tank-wind-powered-cars/?mod=WSJBlog

March 27, 2008, 10:21 am

Turbine in Your Tank: Wind-Powered Cars

Posted by Keith Johnson

At a time when countries around the world are scrambling to install tiny amounts of renewable energy, Denmark has a different problem: What do you do when you’ve got too much wind power? Stop giving it away to the neighbors, for starters, and use it to take more cars off the road.

Leila Abboud in the WSJ (sub reqd) reports that Denmark now gets 20% of its electricity from wind—or even 28% these days—which can overwhelm the power grid, sending a lot of juice to Germany and Norway. One solution from local utility Dong Energy and Better PLC? Use the excess juice to power electric cars.

“Cars are the perfect match for wind power,” said Shai Agassi, chief executive of Better, which is rolling out a similar network in Israel and has a deal with Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co. to build fully electric mass-market cars that run on lithium-ion batteries. “They charge sitting in the garage at night when there is little other demand for electricity.”

The project will take a few years to roll out in any event, and Mr. Agassi’s electric visions in Denmark may end up a pipedream.

...

[fascisthunter]

1. I Think This is an Excellent Concept for Light Vehicles

More alternative technology to resolve transportation and its pollution is a very good thing in my book.

[KansDem]

2. I often wonder about the possibility of putting little wind turbines in the cars themselves...

If the engine can go in the back, like the old VWs, then put wind turbines in the front. What was once the radiator grill would allow wind caused by the moving vehicle to enter and operate the turbines, so whenever the car is moving, the batteries would be recharging.

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. I'm sorry, but, no.

I'm afraid the laws of thermodynamics step in here.

Essentially, you'd be using the engine to drive the turbines, by pushing the car through the air. It would be horribly inefficient. You'd be better off running a standard generator directly off the engine to charge the batteries (i.e. a “series”/“serial” hybrid.)

[Fovea]

4. The force that makes wind work is drag.

No free lunch here. Energy will leak out of the system as heat like resistance, the drag on the turbine will exceed energy regained.

The founders of RANS bicycles and light aircraft started with a prairie sail trike. You could even tack with it. Perhaps the perfect recreational vehicle if you live in Hays.

Better regeneration comes from using the electric motor to brake, and directly recapture.

I had a ZAP company bike motor that would recapture something like 10% percent on downgrades IIRC. Or course, it ate your tire doing that.

[Fovea]

5. Yes. This is a big part of the solution

An Electric Car is a storage system.
As such, or rather considered as a pool, they create a big sink
for surges in a wind/solar/tidal system. And you can drive them.

This is as true for private electric vehicles as it is for electro-motor public transit.

This would mean that your car might also have give back in times of crazy peak demand or emergency. Your car would know how much energy you might need to drive that day. Battery units would be standardized and you might be able to have your battery replacement cost folded into the amount you contribute.

What does this presuppose to work?

Even better batteries.

[diane in sf]

8. Yes, this is why Pacific Gas and Electric is pushing for plug-in hybrids here,

they make excellent storage places for excess capacity at night and can be drained during times of high demand like mid-day when they'd be sitting in a parking lot.

[Kolesar]

9. Ok, how about a GPS link to show how far you have driven from home?

The car could memorize your routes and know if you are at work and only need a certain amount of charge to get home. It could sell the excess for a high price back to the grid. Peak electricity is probably 30 cents/kW*hour.

[Fovea]

10. Sure, you'd need to have some flexibility

If the new battery would charge as fast as a capacitor then you could just hit the grid for a quick recharge.

The big difficulties will be changing electrical standards, because while 110 ac is great for transmission, batteries and capacitors are dc critters. The new standard for household may become 24v dc or some such. But resales to the grid will probably use inverters.

The interesting thing to me is the idea of vehicle as sink.

[tinrobot]

12. You'd actually need higher voltages to charge cars

More volts delivers more charge more quickly.

When electric cars become common, you may actually see a standard 480V outlet in every garage to make cars charge faster.

[Fovea]

14. Yes, you are right.

I was trying to say that house main current would be better off 24vdc.

I was a lurker on the EV list for a while a few years back.

I know the UK does great on 220vdc, but a lot promising rock stars
discovered why you should not touch a mike where beer is spilled.

I use as a model for the perfect battery the fictional batacitor from P.J. Farmer. It had the ability to exchange energy like a capacitor. Near instantaneous charge/discharge cycles would really make this idea sing.

Of course, then we would probably really get the big boost with near room temperature superconductivity. As I understand it, we are getting closer. And really, the earth doesn't need the waste heat.

I hope that physics and materials research moves along apace.

[tinrobot]

6. Why limit it to just wind?

Wind, solar, geothermal can all be used.

What we really need are some viable electric vehicles.

[IDemo]

7. More on the concept here-->> (pdf)

"Electric Vehicles with V2G: Storage for Large-Scale Wind Power"

[kristopher]

11. Kempton is the originator of the V2G concept

He has a web site at the University of Delaware that fully covers V2G and wind.

http://www.ocean.udel.edu/windpower/


http://www.udel.edu/V2G/

[madokie]

13. Deserving of a rec for thread title alone

but there's lots of reasons other than that that this needs to be read by all. We have it in our power to do something about CO2 and EV's is a big step in that direction. Charge them up at night when the power companies have an excess of energy, in that they have to keep the generators generating for the power that is needed and it requires very little extra power in comparison. Taking a few million ICE autos off the streets during the day will have to make a much bigger difference than the added CO2 being produced by the power companies to make that power to charge the EV's at night. Wind and solar would be icing on the cake, just making an already good thing much better.

[NNadir]

15. Wind can't even power the world's light bulbs.

In general, though, one ridiculous car culture fantasy more wouldn't make a piss pot full of difference.

The "renewable will save us" yuppie fantasy jumped the shark a long time ago, and we'll just pile this on top of the other useless wishful thinking.

Denmark has "too much" wind power because the geniuses in the "renewable will save us" industry - who will kill to raise the external cost of energy with a misguided and environmentally reprehensible attempt to incur enormous damage through storage schemes.

Cars are failing because distributed energy is a dumb idea.

[diane in sf]

16. Howdy EEyore, sorry nukes are dying, I suppose that accounts for your depressed

affect.

[DCKit]

17. Yes, centralized control over any commodity is always best. Especially energy.

You Nnever KNnow when you'll have to pull the plug on some big-mouthed radical tree hugger.

That's why all potatoes are grown in Idaho, all the corn comes from Kansas, all steel from Pittsburgh and, using our magical voting powers, political corruption is being centralized in DC.

[eppur_se_muova]

18. Wind-propelled vehicles? Nothing new.

http://www.texasescapes.com/MikeCoxTexasTales/196-Wind-Wagon.htm

http://www.kshs.org/portraits/wind_wagons.htm

http://www.wagonmasters.org/about/windwagonsmith.html