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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:26 PM
Original message
Group Asks S.C. to Halt Nuclear Plant
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5594525.html

COLUMBIA, S.C. — An environmental group has asked South Carolina regulators to halt Duke Energy's request to include planning costs for two new nuclear reactors in its rates.

Charlotte-based Duke Energy Corp. told the South Carolina Public Service Commission in December that it has spent $70 million and expects to spend $160 million more on the project through December 2009. South Carolina ratepayers would pick up $64.4 million of the pre-construction costs for the Cherokee County project in their power bills.

South Carolina Friends of the Earth contends nuclear power isn't safe, costs more than other energy alternatives and there is no solution for handling the waste generated.

Duke has not committed to building the reactors, but wants to keep the option open in the next decade.

<more>
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. they're legislating pi again...
"And in South Carolina, the definition of renewable energy is on the verge of changing. A bill defining renewable energy as coming from solar, wind, tidal and other sources has been amended to include nuclear energy. That Senate legislation could get final approval in the House on Wednesday."

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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. nuclear can be renewable
if you build reprocessing plants to renew the fuel rods. Most of what is considered "waste" these days really isn't and if it was reprocessed could be used for fuel and medical purposes.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. nuclear is not renewable. nt


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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. are you telling me
that you don't think spent rods can be reprocessed, reused etc?

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's recycling (with diminishing returns) - uranium is *not* renewable and it's *not* sustainable
n/t
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. you can renew the same amount
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 09:15 AM by sabbat hunter
of uranium about 80 times thru reprocessing.

Fuel rods last about 6 years. times that by 80 so now the same amount of fissile material lasts 480 years. Pretty damn renewable to me.

Additionally generation IV plants can use thorium instead of uranium, which means about 1/300th of the material can be used.


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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You idiot! Uranium has a half-life of only 4.47 billion years.
And you yourself said that we are limited to 80 half-lives. So what are we supposed to do after 358 billion years, Mr. Cheney Pants?

And the Earth only has a limited supply, like 10-15 parts per million, or about 5 quadrillion tons, of which only about 100 trillion tons is recoverable. And we'll run through that by 2050.

Typical short-sighted pro-nuKKKer!

:eyes:

--p!
Potash? What potash?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Ummm...spent fuel is reprocessed for its plutonium not its uranium content.
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 11:40 AM by jpak
and reprocessed Pu costs $2000 per kg and produces enormous quantities of solid and liquid high level waste that we *still* don't know what to do with.

US commercial reprocessing was a commercial failure. The defunct spent fuel reprocessing plant in WEest Valley NY produced $20 million of plutonium nitrate and will cost tax payers $4-8 billion to decommission and clean-up (and it closed in 1972).

Typical pronuclular stupidity....
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. spent fuel
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:18 PM by sabbat hunter
can also be reprocessed into new reactor fuel in breeder reactors.

Typical anti-nuclear ignorance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Breeder reactors don't work
They melt down or have sodium fires, but none have successfully bred significant amounts of plutonium...

Typical pro-nucular ignorance...
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. maybe you should
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:25 PM by sabbat hunter
actually do a bit of research like I have.

Pyroprocessing

Pyroprocessing is a generic term for several kinds of Pyrometallurgical Reprocessing. These processes are not currently in significant use worldwide, but they have been researched and developed at Argonne National Laboratory and elsewhere. The principles behind them are well understood, and no significant technical barriers exist to their adoption. The primary economic hurdle to widespread adoption is that reprocessing as a whole is not currently (2005) in favor, and places that do reprocess already have PUREX plants constructed. Consequently, there is little demand for new pyrometalurgical systems, although there could be if the Generation IV reactor programs become reality.

Pyrometallurgical processing techniques involve several stages: volatilisation, liquid-liquid extraction using immiscible metal-metal phases or metal-salt phases, electrorefining in molten salt, fractional crystallisation, etc. They are generally based on the use of either fused (low-melting point) salts such as chlorides or fluorides (eg LiCl+KCl or LiF+CaF2) or fused metals such as cadmium, bismuth or aluminium. They are most readily applied to metal rather than oxide fuels.

Advantages and disadvantages

Advantages

* Pyroprocessing can readily be applied to high burn-up fuel and fuel which has had little cooling time, since the operating temperatures are high already.
* It does not use water. Water is problematic in nuclear chemistry for many reasons. First of all, it tends to serve as a moderator, and accelerate nuclear reactions. Secondly, it is easily contaminated, and not easily cleaned up, and it tends to evaporate, potentially taking Tritium with it. This is not as large an advantage as it might first appear as it is possible to treat normal oxide fuel using a process called Voloxidation<10> which removes 99% of the tritium from used fuel. The tritium can be recovered in the form of a strong solution which might be suitable for use as a supply of tritium for industrial applications.
* It separates out all actinides, and therefore produces fuel that is heavily spiked with heavy actinides, such as Plutonium (240+), and Curium 242. This does not prevent the fuel from being suitable for reactors, but it makes it hard to manipulate, steal, or make nuclear weapons from. This is generally considered a fairly desirable property. In contrast, the PUREX process can easily produce separated Uranium and Plutonium, and also tends to leave the remaining actinides (like Curium) behind, producing more dangerous nuclear waste.
* It is somewhat more efficient and considerably more compact than aqueous processing methods, allowing the possibility of on-site reprocessing of reactor wastes. This circumvents various transportation and security issues, allowing the reactor to simply store a small volume (perhaps a few percent of the original volume of the spent fuel) of fission product laced salt on site until decommissioning, when everything could be dealt with at once.
* Since pyrometalurgy recovers all the actinides, the remaining waste is not nearly as long lived as it would otherwise be. Most of the long term (past a couple hundred years) radioactivity produced by nuclear waste is produced by the actinides. These actinides can (mostly) be consumed by reactors as fuel, so extracting them from the waste and reinserting them into the reactor reduces the long term threat from the waste, and reduces the fuel needs of the reactor





Also there is more than 1 type of breeder reactor

Types of breeder reactors

Two types of traditional breeder reactor have been proposed:

* fast breeder reactor or FBR. The superior neutron economy of a fast neutron reactor makes it possible to build a reactor that, after its initial fuel charge of plutonium, requires only natural (or even depleted) uranium feedstock as input to its fuel cycle. This fuel cycle has been termed the plutonium economy.

* thermal breeder reactor. The excellent neutron capture characteristics of fissile Uranium-233 make it possible to build a moderated reactor that, after its initial fuel charge of enriched uranium, plutonium or MOX, requires only thorium as input to its fuel cycle. Thorium-232 produces Uranium-233 after neutron capture and beta decay.

In addition to this, there is some interest in so-called "reduced moderation reactors"<7> which are derived from conventional reactors and use conventional fuels and coolants, but are designed to be reasonably efficient as breeders. Such designs typically achieve breeding ratios of 0.7 to 1.01 or even higher.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing

So you are quite wrong about reprocessing and breeder reactors.


*edited to add links*
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Maybe you should do some research: which of these breeders melted down, had a Na fires or bred Pu???
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 12:42 PM by jpak
EBR-1
EBR-2
Rocketdyne Expermental Breeder Reactor
Fermi-1
Phenix
Super-Phenix
BN-350
BN-600
Monju

:popcorn:
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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. you realize of course
that the technology is not used anymore that was used in the Rocketdyne facility, being that it was built 50 odd years ago.

Technology has changed A LOT in the last 50 years. .

But don't let facts like that stand in your way of your ignorance of current technology.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Japan's *modern* breeder suffered a catastrophic sodium fire in 1995
http://www.wise-paris.org/index.html?/english/ournewsletter/2/page7.html&/english/frame/menu.html&/english/frame/band.html

The US, UK, France, Russia have abandoned their fast breeder programs.

Japan's FBR program is in limbo (post-Monju fire).

The only country with an active FBR program is India - and they want it to make bombs...

ignorance indeed...

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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Thats because
you dont use fast breeder reactors to reprocess spent fuel into new fuel. There are other types of breeder reactors you know. Go look at my earlier posts and see.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Where did I say that FBRs were used to reprocess spent fuel???
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 01:23 PM by jpak
nowhere

That's just plain stupid.

and which country is developing thorium breeding cycles???

Not the US, UK, FR, RU or JA....

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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. you said
"Japan's *modern* breeder suffered a catastrophic sodium fire in 1995

http://www.wise-paris.org/index.html?/english/ournewsle...

The US, UK, France, Russia have abandoned their fast breeder programs.

Japan's FBR program is in limbo (post-Monju fire).



that certainly insinuates that you believe that FBR are used to reprocess fuel.

We SHOULD be developing thorium breeding cycle breeding reactors.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Breeding Pu and reprocessing are two different processes - I know the difference, you don't
Breeders irradiate 238U to produce 239Pu

Spent fuel from conventional or breeder reactors is reprocessed to recover 239Pu.

Now you know too...



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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. you can also
Edited on Fri Mar-07-08 08:14 PM by sabbat hunter
reprocess fuel to get more useable fuel for nuclear reactors/energy.
and new breeder reactors are different than the old fast breeder ones that were used for creating plutonium

The Liquid Fluoride Reactor was also developed as a thermal breeder. Liquid-fluoride reactors have many attractive features, such as deep inherent safety (due to their strong negative temperature coefficient of reactivity and their ability to drain their liquid fuel into a passively-cooled and non-critical configuration) and ease of operation. They are particularly attractive as thermal breeders because they can isolate protactinium-233 (the intermediate breeding product of thorium) from neutron flux and allow it to decay to uranium-233, which can then be returned to the reactor


And I have already posted earlier about how "spent" fuel can be reprocessed into new fuel, so I won't go into that again.


Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. "They are particularly attractive as thermal breeders"
PERVERT!

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Reprocessed uranium is contaminated with 232U and 236U
The former renders it highly radioactive and the latter is a fission poison.

Both greatly increase the cost ($ and energy) required to use reprocessed uranium - 232U requires extra shielding and other safety measures for handling, 236U requires further enrichment of 235U to negate neutron absorption by 236U.

It would take 250-300 years for 232U in freshly discharged spent fuel to decay to negligible concentrations.

No country that reprocesses spent fuel for *plutonium* MOX fuel uses reprocessed uranium.

There's a reason for that...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Um, you're at your best when you mangle and distort physics.
Nothing is quite as hilarious as when you start talking isotopes, since you are completely clueless about reactor physics, nuclear chemistry and reactor engineering.

Uranium-236 may be viewed as a burnable poison. Anyone who knew anything at all about reactor physics - and let's face it, you don't learn reactor physics in fundie anti-nuke cults like "'Friends' of the Earth" any more than you learn evolutionary genetics in the "science" classes at Liberty University - knows that almost all reactors have burnable poisons. The nice thing about U-236 is the way it burns, particularly in thermal breeding scenarios. For a while the poisoning effect rises as U-236 is converted into Np-237, but as both are depleted as fission poisons accumulate, the situation relaxes.

In fact there are many parts of the fission neutron spectrum at which the "fission to capture" ratio (duh, Mom, what's that?) is as high as 0.3 for U-236. For Np-237, the ratio is nearly 0.4
(Source: Stacey, Nuclear Reactor Physics, Wiley, 2001, pg 235.) The obvious advantage of a parasitic nucleus like U-236 in reactors having slower spectra, is to eliminate the need for boron and other poisons deliberately added to reactors.

This means that by manipulation of the spectra via geometry and materials considerations, the neutron sinks can be easily manipulated. Interestingly enough, for 1 MeV neutrons, U-233 has the highest known value of eta for any actinide other than Pu-241 (which in any case is near 2 MeV.) The engineering implications are obvious.

It can be shown that there are many methods to do these things in situ, as were pioneered by Weinberg more than 3 decades ago.

But, of course, if you're reading some dumb shit rhetoric off of some googled anti-nuke website filled with contempt for science and engineering, none of this matters.

As for U-232, I note that our fundie anti-nukes are pretty loud - when they're not telling us, a la Amory Lovins that nuclear energy is dying - at voicing their illiterate fantasies about weapons diversion of uranium. In the next breath, they're arguing to keep existing weapons materials as dangerous as possible, at least when they're not pushing fossil fuel wars. In fact, a bunch of dumb ass anti-nukes were essential to whipping up the "Saddam Hussein is buying uranium" hysteria in 2003. There was NOT ONE person with a knowledge of nuclear physics who took one word of this bit of crap seriously.

U-232 has the advantage of making clandestine weapons diversion of uranium fuels impossible. The problem is not that we have too much U-232, but that we don't have enough of it. In fact, one might argue that the perfect nuclear fuel for the purpose of forcing nuclear disarmament would have an admixture of U-232, U-233, U-234, U-235 and U-236.

There is no feasible technology for enriching such a fuel to weapons grade. This fuel composition can only be achieved through a rational embrace of nuclear fission energy plants.

I note that the first US nuclear reactor - the one at Shippingport - operated for a full cycle on thorium based fuel, that the first molten salt reactor operated on thorium fuel in the late 1960's and that Indian reactors operate on it now.

Thorium fuel does have a moderately higher processing cost that traditionally enriched fuels, but the cost of nuclear fuel is trivial in all cases, the equivalent of gasoline at less than a penny a gallon. However, since there is no shortage of nuclear fuel, there is no reason to exploit these facts - yet.

The cost of nuclear energy is almost entirely the cost of the infrastructure. Fuel is plentiful and cheap.

I note with my usual contempt for ignorance, that we are hearing this disingenuous whining about cost from a yuppie apologist for solar power - affordable only for Mom's drinking class - http://www.solarbuzz.com/.

When the cost of nuclear energy rises to 21 cents busbar per kw-hour, be sure to come back and whine. Until then, though, your criteria is like the bullshit representations of every fundie anti-nuke - selective attention.

Somehow when we are distributing point source electronic waste - which is what solar cells will become in about 20 to 30 years - across the face of the earth in the brazillion solar roofs, cost is no object. But when we talk about energy that every person on earth can afford, we suddenly hear whining about costs.

India, which has the world's largest thorium reserves, couldn't care less about the chanting of the yuppie cults who know no physics, no chemistry, and no economics. It fully intends to go with thorium, and this is an extremely wise and informed choice. They can do it; they will do it and to some extent they are doing it.

The reactor at Kamini went critical in the mid 1990's. It is operating now at 30 MWe. Kakrapar 1 and 2 are both loaded with thorium fuel.



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sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thank you
for your voice of reason!

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. LOL!!!111
:rofl:
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. 'cuse me while I go puke
:puke: voice of reason, :rofl::rofl::rofl: damn my sides hurt, man you're killing me, voice of reason huh:puke:
now to go bath :rofl:
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. No country that reprocesses spent fuel uses reprocessed uranium for all the reasons stated above
none

and the rest of your ridiculous post is all the stupid hobbyist nonsense you can Xerox.

Now.

Your stupid cut-and-paste argument is that "The problem is not that we have too much U-232 (sic), but that we don't have enough of it."

There's plenty enough 232U and 236U in current stockpiles of reprocessed uranium. Trouble is, they are useless - nobody uses them.

QED

Furthermore, your silly *hobbyist* suggestion that they be used for disarmament purposes is a clear admission that civilian nuclear power is used to produce fissile material for nuclear weapons programs - clandestine or otherwise - and contributing to international instability and fear.

Just how is the international community to dope Pakistani, Israeli, Indian, Iranian, et al., weapons grade 235U with 232U and 236U???

It is the height of delusional sociopathic nonsense to suggest that this can be done.

Oh yeah - speaking of delusional nonsense, how's your made-up make-believe fairy-tale molten salt breeder reactor coming along????

:rofl:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Incorrect.
Theoretically, some day in the future, it may or may not be possible to recycle fuel rods several times,
in theory perhaps as much as 80 but in reality probably a lot less than that,
although it will be several decades before we know whether this is even practical on any scale at all.

That's a long stretch towards calling something "renewable".
The legislation in the OP is about what can be built today, not about technologies that may or may not exist in the future.

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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
8. "You'll get pie in the sky when you die"
("that's a lie!")

Joe Hill
The Preacher And The Slave
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
25. And in other news, Liberty "University" calls for an end to evolution.
Um, why not tell us about the illiterates over at Greenpeace who oppose nuclear energy.

www.windwatch.org
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