Hybrid Escalade? You Gotta Be Kidding

[marmar]

from HuffPost, via AlterNet:




Hybrid Escalade? You Gotta Be Kidding

By Clint Wilder, Huffington Post. Posted February 13, 2008.

Are hybrid Escalades, Tahoes and Yukons really just the lipstick on a pig's philosophy at work -- dressing up a bad thing to look a little better?



Some years ago, I'm not sure when, the prize vehicles awarded to heroes of major sports events made the unfortunate transition from snazzy convertible sports cars to the biggest, hulkiest, meanest SOBs -- I mean SUVs -- on the block. So it was no surprise when New York Giants quarterback Eli Manning, after engineering one of the greatest upset wins in Super Bowl history 10 days ago (with a tremendous assist from his team's defense, I must add), was handed the MVP trophy and the keys to a brand-new black 2009 Cadillac Escalade.

But this is 2008, and there's a twist. It's a hybrid Escalade. And that's now officially a trend. The Super Bowl telecast also included an ad for the new GMC Yukon hybrid, and at Major League Baseball's All-Star Game last summer, I was there in person at San Francisco's AT&T Park to see game MVP Ichiro Suzuki receive a hybrid Chevy Tahoe SUV. (Full disclosure: in addition to clean energy and sustainability, I'm also passionate about sports in general and baseball in particular).

At that time, my book The Clean Tech Revolution (co-authored with Ron Pernick) had just been published, and at a bookstore appearance the next day I was happy to extol Ichiro's MVP award as a great example of clean tech having moved firmly into the consumer and cultural mainstream. I also noted that Fox Sports used biodiesel to power its satellite trucks and broadcast equipment at the game, and the related All-Star Fanfest displayed the Chevy Volt, General Motors' concept car that can be configured as an all-electric, plug-in hybrid, hydrogen fuel cell, or flex-fuel vehicle.

But now, I'm not so sure that biggest-of-the-fleet SUV hybrids are such a good thing. Yes, it's good to see the mainstreaming of hybrid technology, but are hybrid Escalades, Tahoes, and Yukons really just the lipstick on a pig's philosophy at work -- dressing up a bad thing to look a little better, ecologically speaking? GM calls it (I'm not making this up) intelligent indulgence. GM promises that the hybrid version will improve the Escalade's city gas mileage by up to 50 percent -- from its current 12 mpg all the way to 18. Yippee.

The hybrid Escalade reminds me of the 15,000 square foot McMansion with solar panels, or the coal-fired power plant with incrementally reduced CO2 emissions. Sure, it's better than its more harmful, greenhouse gas-producing predecessor, but it also carries the implication that incremental improvements in the way we've always done things -- or at least the way we've done things since the 1980s when SUVs and McMansions proliferated -- will get us where we need to be on carbon reduction. They won't. ......(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.alternet.org/environment/76785/

[Triana]

1. Just IMO - yep - They're lipstick on a pig. (n/t)

[liberal N proud]

2. That is were all the "big three" are putting their hybrids

Chrysler, GM and Ford all putting hybrids in SUV's

Why? One reason is those are the vehicles that are selling.

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. Silly me. I thought the buyers were hybrids.........

[Dr.Phool]

4. Lipstick on a pig. Or a gas hog to be precise.

The hybrid technology on them just increases their mpg by a couple, because they're still big and heavy.

I bought a new Prius for my wife on Valentines Day, and it's got the whole package. Low friction tires, small gas tank, etc., to make it more fuel efficient.

[DainBramaged]

6. Nissan Armada, Honda Ridgeline, Toyota Land Cruiser

Big SUV's from your beloved Japanese manufacturers. I guess it's ok for them to spew them out as long as you can get your Prius and feel ok about yourself.

Know what the millage is on those pigs?

Here, I'll help. The Armada gets 12 MPG City, 17 MPG Highway. GREAT gas millage from a "good" Japanese manufacturer.

[Dr.Phool]

7. I'm 55 years old. It's the first foreign car I've bought in my life.

And I thought long and hard about it. I see Ford and GM getting ready to buy out all their hourly employees, so they can pay new employees much less?

I'm supposed to be loyal to a bunch of greedy CEO's who've been way behind the design curve for over 30 years? And I traded in an S-10 that I bought new in 2003.

It ain't the American worker who created this situation, it's his asshole boss.

[TheCowsCameHome]

11. When I heard Hannity and Limbaugh hawking GM products, I said

I'm outta here.

45 continuous years of buying GM products, but that ended it for me. Let them sell their stuff to right-wing scum from now on.

Fuck them - if GM thinks they're suitable representatives for their products, they can do without me.

And my recently purchased Honda Odyssey van is doing just fine, thank you. And when my Buick gives up, I'll buy a Toyota or Honda to replace it.

[DainBramaged]

18. Right wing scum buy LOTS of Toyota's and Honda's and Nissan's too

They buy Lexus and Infiniti and Acuras by the hundreds of thousands each year.

What a bullshit reason to stop supporting GM.:puke: :puke: :puke: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[CRF450]

24. Not to mention, their are many who also own a Prius.

Bullshit indeed.

[MADem]

55. I am still driving a US made subcompact I purchased in 1986

It hadn't been my main car over the years, but now it is. It has less than a hundred thousand miles on it, it gets in the mid to upper thirties highway, depending on how I drive (one gets more gas mileage driving like a geezer) and it has NO bells or whistles. Seat belts, yep, an old tape player, yep, no ABS, no airbags, but it runs like a top.

[Dogmudgeon]

57. Yep -- NOT buying a car so often saves a LOT of carbon

Has anyone calculated the carbon savings between buying a new car every two years and every five years?

I have customarily driven my cars until they rusted out. A 16-year-old Honda, an 18-year old VW (both American-built, I made sure), and three Fords that outlasted their eras of coolness. Now I've got an aging Chevy, but I also put about 20 miles on it a week, if that.

By the time it dies, I hope I will be able to get a micro-car or better yet, a powered bicycle or minicycle with a big basket. And, of course, living somewhere where a car is not required.

--p!

[DainBramaged]

5. I guess here at DU vehicle choice is limited to Japanese cars

Silly me, I guess the big SUV's from Toyota, Honda and Nissan don't count towards political incorrectness. They make a few "good" cars so they aren't subject to criticism.

[deadmessengers]

9. I don't think political correctness is the issue here.

The fact is, the Big 3 American automakers have been putting out an inferior product for 30 years now. I buy Japanese not because it's PC to do so, but because they're more reliable and thus cheaper to own. Both American and Japanese manufacturers put out environmentally damaging products, yes - but it seems that the environmentally damaging products that are marketed by Japanese companies tend to last about twice as long.

[IADEMO2004]

10. Years ago Lee Iacocca said Chrysler and their Japanese partner

made the same car on the same line with the same employees in California with only a few cosmetic differences and the emblem on the hood. The Japanese brand of the same car always had a higher customer satisfaction rating.

[DainBramaged]

14. So it's ok to damage the environment twice as long??

Logic seems to fail me here. And the other question no one wants to respond to is the plant that makes the batteries for the Prius (in Canada) has fouled the landscape for centuries with the byproducts of lithium battery production. But that's ok since the Japanese products tend to last twice as long as American cars. Which has proven to be a fallacy over the past decade, but who's counting, only Japanese cars are good.:sarcasm:

http://www.mlive.com/naias/index.ssf/2008/01/slow_hybrid_vehicle_sales_grow.html



Slow hybrid vehicle sales growth predicted


During the Detroit auto show, Jeff Swan was roaming the floor with an eye toward buying a new vehicle. But while he values fuel economy, the traveling salesman said hybrids don't make sense for him.

The Chicago resident said he does a lot of highway driving, where hybrids are least cost-effective.
The economics don't work," he said after viewing the Toyota Prius. "There's still too much of a premium. Gasoline's not expensive enough yet."

Despite the attention paid to hybrid models at the 2008 North American International Auto Show, industry analysts say a combination of factors, including often-hefty price premiums and an acceptance by consumers of $3-per-gallon gasoline, will temper sales of hybrids this year. That's despite the introduction of new hybrids such as the Saturn Green Line Aura and Vue and the Chevrolet Tahoe Two-Mode Hybrid SUV.

We don't see a huge spike in the short term," said Michael Omotoso, senior manager of global powertrain for J.D. Power and Associates in Troy. The firm predicts that hybrid sales will rise a modest 31,000 units, the smallest gain by the segment since 2003.

That's partly due to the introduction of inexpensive compact cars like the Honda Fit, Nissan Versa and Chevy Cobalt "that get about 30 miles per gallon without having to pay a hybrid premium," Omotoso said.

[tinrobot]

34. I hope GM releases the Volt.

It's a great concept for a car. If it works as advertised, it will actually give GM some credibility when it comes to fuel economy.

But don't assume DU choice is limited to Japanese cars. The criticisms leveled here are not about country of origin, they're about fuel economy. A 20mpg Escalade is not doing much at all to save the planet.

[DainBramaged]

45. Imagine if fleets of delivery vehicles became hybrids in a decade

From UPS to FedEx to DHL to the guys who deliver Frito's. Most of these trucks are gas burners getting horrific millage. Imagine giving them the ability to increase their millage to 20MPG each? What a difference. A 20MPG Escalade is the perfect test bed for future technology.

You can't just look at passenger vehicles as a way to improve our dependence on petroleum. You have to look at our infrastructure and how our goods are delivered to us. Fleet purchases of medium to large gasoline burning trucks are over half of the production of the American auto industry. Vans for construction workers, work trucks (basic pickups) all could benefit from hybrid technology. Police and municipal vehicles would make a huge difference.

Oh, and today I printed the technology training manuals for the techs on this vehicle. 20 7.2 volt Lion batteries, power inverter, and the engine turns off at idle while stopped. Many of the accessories formerly driven by the engine (power steering, brake booster, ac) are now electric instead of engine dependent (for obvious reasons) so the change in technology isn't just adding batteries.

And keep in mind, these are 6000 pound vehicles getting 20MPG around town. Translate that to the next generation of work trucks and the savings on import oils adds up quickly.

Sea change. It will take a generation to make it happen. The point of origin needs to be somewhere. Why not here.

[nradisic]

8. more than 60% fuel improvement....

For those who are ignorant.....

GM's largest gas engine is the 6.2L behemoth that is the main powerplant for the Escalade, Hummer and Yukon XL Denali. It is also one of the worst polluting and least fuel efficient engines in the world. That being said, there are some families, like ours that drives one due to need...my wife and I have triplets and dogs. Whenever we go away, we need a very large vehicle. Three full rows of seating and a ton of storage behind the 3rd row....We own a Yukon XL Denali.

The only vehicles with that size are the Suburbans, Yukon XLs and Escalades of the world. With a hybrid 6.2L engine the average fuel consumption goes from 12.6 MPG to 20 MPG! That is an increase of over 63% fuel efficiency for one of the worst polluting engines in existence. What is so hard to understand ho awesome that is? I am getting a Yukon XL Denali Hybrid as soon as it is available, so that I can save a ton of money on gas and pollute a heck of a lot less, while still having the truck that we need.

Do you understand now, why a Hybrid Escalade really is a huge deal? The fuel savings is enormous and with a Hybrid Escalade, you will be releasing tons LESS of CO2...Do you know how much less oil we would use if most of the fleet vans, pick up trucks and large SUV's were switched to Hybrids over the next ten years? We would use millions, yes millions of barrells of oil LESS, every year....

[DainBramaged]

13. You waste your breath here

This isn't the place to love American iron. Even if you need it.

[Kolesar]

15. 20 mpg and a huge towing capacity will make for a market success that Toyota won't have

Note that Honda killed one of their hybrid cars and the other is not selling very well. Who Killed the Hybrid Car? The consumer.

I might suggest for you a minivan. Chevy's is 16/23 mpg.

[tinrobot]

16. You could get a 500% improvement in a Prius.

That being said, there are some families, like ours that drives one due to need...my wife and I have triplets and dog Whenever we go away, we need a very large vehicle.

So, I assume you have five people in your family. Almost any car seats five. You don't need an Escalade to seat two adults and triplets.

A Hybrid Ford Escape can handle that many people plus it has room in the back for dogs. It gets triple the mileage of the Yukon XL and almost double the mileage of the Escalade hybrid. A Hybrid Toyota Highlander gets almost the same mileage as the Escape and has three seats. A Prius at 60mpg would get five times the mileage of the Yukon XL and it also seats five.

If you only need a big vehicle for "whenever we go away" then why not rent a Yukon for those days out of the year and go back to a smaller car for the day to day stuff? Driving a few tons of steel at 20mpg to the grocery store every single day does not make sense just simply because you take it on a few road trips a year.

I'm not trying to be critical, but we really need to change the way we look at car ownership in this country. Right now, people think they have a right to own whatever size car they want. If they "need" it, then somehow that trumps the planet's need to have less carbon and less pollution in the atmosphere. The truth is, most people don't need cars as big as they think they need, and can do just fine with much smaller vehicles.

[DainBramaged]

17. People do have a right to own what ever car they want

which is why you chose Prius. Fuck this "more environmentally pure than thou" attitude. Chastise your beloved Japanese manufacturers for their excess before you criticize any of us. Why do they make Nissan 300ZX and Infiniti 350 sports cars? Because people have a choice. Why does Toyota make the Avalon, bigger than an Impala/ because people have a choice. And ANY car of today gets substantially better gas millage than cars and trucks of just 10 years ago.

Quit with the "I'm better than you bullshit because I drive a Prius" It's what makes those of us who despise everything that's wrong with the Right hate the warts of the Left.

Oh, and go preach at the Chinese and Indian embassies. They are destroying the planet (with their complete disregard for good environmental practices) faster than we ever imagined.

[tinrobot]

27. Sorry, but I don't own a Prius.

I simply cited the published mileage for the Prius and various other hybrids - including one from Ford. I'm not trying to act superior, nor do I love Japanese cars. I'm simply pointing out that we're all on this planet together and we breathe the same air. One person's choice does affect everyone else.

I'd humbly suggest that those people who insist on buying gas hogs are the ones acting superior and seem to think that their needs trump those of everyone else. Those who choose to drive gas hogs add a lot more carbon dioxide and pollution to the air that we all breathe.

Similarly, the more things people buy from China and India, then the more those countries will pollute as well. If you want China and India to stop destroying the planet, don't go to their embassies -- stop buying the stuff they produce. Consume less.

Oh, and by the way -- cars of today do not get "substantially better gas millage than cars and trucks of just 10 years ago." Look it up yourself:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov

For the Yukon in question, the 2008 gets worse mileage:

1998 Yukon 1500XL 6.5L - 13 mpg city/17mpg hwy
2008 Yukon 1500XL 6 L - 12mpg city/17mpg hwy

[CRF450]

28. I'm pretty sure it would get a little better than 12mpg

You gotta remember, these new 08 EPA numbers are for "worse driving conditions". Its not trully what the vehicle would get. I'm willing to bet that new Yukon could average better than that 12mpg rating, maybe around 15 or 16mpg.

[tinrobot]

35. A little better is still not "substantially better"

I forgot that they changed the rules, sorry about that.

But even if it gets 15mpg comparatively, it's still not that much better than 13mpg.

[CRF450]

39. I know that, I just wanted to make that part clear about the EPA numbers

I own an 01 Trans Am, the new 08 EPA numbers rate my car 17/25 when its originally rate 19/28, its a 6 speed manual BTW. I average around 22mpg, and have reached up to 31mpg on the interstate.

[DainBramaged]

30. Fuel economy dot gov

I trust their numbers as far as I can throw a Yukon. Too bad you still give the Japanese a pass. You could gave picked a Land Cruiser. But they do no wrong.:sarcasm:

[tinrobot]

33. Gave the Japanese a pass?

For the record, I drive a 2007 Ford Escape Hybrid. Made in Kansas City by union labor.

I picked the Yukon because that was the vehicle mentioned in the original post I replied to. But you'd rather make assumptions than actually read.

[lectrobyte]

22. If I had more time, I'd figure out how much gas you'd need to save

to justify the price tag of that hybrid Yukon. Aw heck, why not? Assuming 2WD models, city driving, 100,000 miles, the hybrid uses 4762 gallons, vs. 7143 for the conventional. Best case, then, you're saving 2381 gallons. Unfortunately, gas has to be around $6 per gallon (and that's certainly a near-future possibility) before you've saved any money. I say "best case" because adding more highway travel into the mix makes the price tag of the Yukon even less justifiable.

Let's see, a Grand Caravan gets 19 City, 26 Highway...

[CRF450]

25. Not the largest engine GM makes.

The LS7 used in the Corvette Z06 is a 427ci 7.0L beast. Yet rated at 505hp, it can still average around 20mpg and reach up to 30mpg on the highways because of how small and light that car is. Put any engine in a 8000lbs vehicle and it will be a gas guzzler. But 20mpg city is pretty awsome for a vehicle that big and heavy. I wish I was getting that much out of my Dodge Dakota, which cant get anymore 16mpg city.

[RedEarth]

12. GM just doesn't get it

[kestrel91316]

19. Oy. Don't they know you CAN'T make a silk purse out of a sow's ear???

[NNadir]

20. Frankly, all hybrid cars are lipstick on a pig.

The problem is not really about SUV's, but about cars themselves.

[lectrobyte]

23. you got it.

Here we stand
Like an Adam and an Eve
Waterfalls
The Garden of Eden
Two fools in love
So beautiful and strong
The birds in the trees
Are smiling upon them
From the age of the dinosaurs
Cars have run on gasoline
Where, where have they gone?
Now, it's nothing but flowers

Years ago
I was an angry young man
I'd pretend
That I was a billboard
Standing tall
By the side of the road
I fell in love
With a beautiful highway
This used to be real estate
Now it's only fields and trees
Where, where is the town
Now, it's nothing but flowers
The highways and cars
Were sacrificed for agriculture
I thought that we'd start over
But I guess I was wrong


-- from Nothing But Flowers by the Talking Heads

[lectrobyte]

21. Let's see, 21 MPG instead of 14MPG for only $15,000 more...

That's city mileage, highway is only 2MPG different. Yeah, the public is going to snap those up. The thing is, if you are worried about fuel economy or environmental impact, then does that go with purchasing a full size SUV?

http://www.gmc.com/yukonhybrid/index.jsp

Let's see some numbers from the fine print at the bottom of the page:

Yukon Hybrid 2WD with EPA estimated 21 mpg city/22 mpg highway. Note: Yukon 2WD (Gas) EPA estimated mpg: 14 city /20 highway.

2WD Hybrid Yukon: MSRP $50,945

2WD Conventional Yukon: MSRP $36,245

On the bright side, the more of these they sell, hybrid or conventional, the sooner we can use up all that petroleum and begin to make some of Kunstler's "other arrangements."

On edit: NB: couldn't find exact figures for the Escelade, assume the Yukon is in the ballpark since it's basically the same thing with a different grille.

[losthills]

26. Hybrids are the best technology we have going...

and they should be encouraged. My own opinion is that congress should mandate that ALL new vehicles be hybrids.

Hybrids not only get more miles per gallon, but they also produce less emissions per gallon. Every hybrid on the road is an improvement, and that should be encouraged. As more hybrids are produced, we'll see more improvements in the electric component of the vehicles. Hybrids are a good step on the path to acheiving an all electric fleet.

I see nothing here to criticize....

[Dogmudgeon]

29. The entire environmental movement has been turned to this

Symbols being considered more important than reality.

Hybrid cars as anything other than the early-adopters' novelty.

"Save the Planet" sloganeering, including abuse of the word "green".

Scolding about consumerism and "buying useless junk" by consumers who buy all that useless junk.

CFL light bulbs (complete with elemental mercury).

Utter contempt for scientific work in the life sciences and engineering that could actually make a difference.

Biofuel dreams -- ethanol, biodiesel, or in any other form.

Criticism of "gadgets" that draw a tenth of a watt, but no criticism of highly inefficient major appliances (heaters and heat pumps, washing machines, overpowered stereos, poorly-designed computer technology -- yes, Macs, too).

Survivalist fantasies dressed up in romantic-leftist fantasies (e.g., new-agey communes instead of armed "freeholds").

Dietary fads now linked to environmentalism, but no widespread call for a sane agricultural policy.

Solar and wind energy being used to make oil companies look nicey-nice.

An old-fashioned bourgeois-liberal attitude toward these problems, substituting emotionalizing and bathos for progressive policy (or even pragmatic policy).

Sentimentalizing in the style of Iron Eyes Cody and Grizzly Adams instead of cultivating a generation of Gorean energy/enviro policy wonks.

A seemingly concerted effort to distract attention from the systemic nature of these challenges ...

... or perhaps a stubborn refusal to understand the systemic nature of these challenges.

The very notion that facing these challenges will NOT be extremely difficult and unpleasant.

I don't blame environmentalists ... I blame the use of environmentalism as propaganda, as deception, as greenwash. I am surprised to see anything like this on AlterNet.

In a very few years, we will be sharing a painful laugh as we contemplate our hybrid cars, our CFLs, our good intentions, and our complete inability to calm the maelstrom.

--p!
No, I'm not in an optimistic mood. Why do you ask?

[DainBramaged]

31. "instead of cultivating a generation of Gorean energy/enviro policy "

Why should they change, they have their little hybrids, they are doing their part.:sarcasm:

We also neglected plastic grocery bags, excessive packaging in the use of household cleaners, bottled water (a sore point with me) and all other beverages, alkaline battery recycling, frozen foods as a substitute for fresh food and the excessive electricity needed to keep them frozen.


But everything is OK. As long as they can drive their Priui and show they are "saving gas"!

[Dogmudgeon]

38. It's a small world -- to consumers.

I find it hard to get on the backs of individuals or simply criticizing a particular action. Buying a Prius is not a reprehensible act. The problem lies in public awareness. The public is actively being sold on the idea that they can "be Green" by consuming something that is branded "Green". It's like the idea of shamanic (sympathetic) magic. It encourages the view that the world at large is only slightly bigger than their own personal world, and that they can change it by acquiring the right product.

In this forum, many people regularly think of energy in terms of the energy they use in their households. We try to show them that domestic energy is one-tenth or less of the total. It's a natural mistake to make, and easily remedied. But most of us, you and me alike, have hundreds of these mistaken ideas that have been cultivated in an all-consumer-all-the-time world.

A lot of these reforms (CFLs, eliminating the bottled-water racket, etc.) should be part of an overall sea-change in the way we do things, instead of being parceled out for use in feel-good greenwash ad campaigns. I think it's really an infrastructure problem -- society-wide problems in fundamental systems. Most people have been sold on the idea that infrastructure is bridges and roads. But energy and agriculture are much more basic. Most people are aware that there are some energy problems, but the challenges we have in agriculture are far worse and could kill enormous numbers of people -- but not Americans.

You seem to be an automobile Union man (or possibly woman). I think we need to get rid of our dependence on cars, as do many of us here, but there is a huge disconnect on the part of many environmentalists. They want to abolish the automobile, and they want to build high-tech windmills, but next to none of them realize that Detroit could be re-tooled to turn out alt-energy hardware in a very short time. We have hundreds of thousands of people in this country with serious metalworking and assembly expertise, many of them unhappily idled. But most of us don't think about Detroit and the auto industry because we seldom pay attention to it.

There is a purpose to keeping people's attention splintered like this -- consumerism. It may well take a shock on the scale of 9/11 AND the Kennedy assassination AND the Great Depression AND the Second World War, all put together, before people start thinking "in Glorious 3-D" again. I do not look forward to that shock. People with that small-world attitude think it's just going to mean wearing more sweaters and staying home and talking to their kids more often and "getting to know the neighbors". There could be some serious suffering going on, even to the upper-middle-class world that is home to the American environmental movement.

How do you tell people that we are headed for some serious trouble? Whether it hits fast or slow, if we don't make some big changes soon, the entire world will be screwed.

"But I'm using CFLs. I keep my thermostat at 68F in the winter. I've gone vedge. I only invest in socially responsible businesses, like Ben and Jerry's. And I'm driving a Prius!"

That's all well and good, but they're lifestyle adjustments. We need a social and governmental commitment to literally build the future, and to do it more intelligently -- not another Ameriprise ad with Dennis Hopper mocking us to "get real".

So ... that's my Morning Rant.

--p!

[DainBramaged]

40. The public is only willing to compromise to the verge of being uncomfortable

Your dissertations are refreshing and enlightening. We need a sea change in the attitudes of the population in general, and not just in America. Europe has really led the way in going Green over the past decade or so. Japan and Korea pay lip service to the Green movement. But the developing nations are still in the 18th century (regarding the environment). Brazil is a perfect example. They are consuming the rain forest at such an alarming rate that by the end of my life it could become a desert. And this is supposed to be an educated forward thinking Nation (oil independence be damned).

When consumers begin to turn their backs on gratuitous consumption, we may be able to stem the tide of the destruction of the planet. But I fear it won't be in time. Thanks for your input. It was refreshing.

PS

A GM executive stated that the oil companies will dramatically force down the price of petroleum if plug in electric cars become as popular as hybrids. They do not want to lose the monopoly they hold over us.

We have no control over our futures.

Be well

[salinen]

36. We're in the "last throes"

Consumerism as a religion has the desired effect that the government needs to sustain itself. Intensification of all resources drives the economy at a rate which makes CEO's smile, and the environment suffer. I call it the "Easter Island" effect. Only when it's much too late will it really be recognized. It's the human condition. God is a terrible designer.

[One_Life_To_Give]

37. Cyber Hugs

:pals:

Look on the brite side. You will be in high demand when the entire country has to get by on 1kwhr per household per day.

[losthills]

41. Rush Limbaugh couldn't have said it any better.

Anti-environmentalist rants seem to be increasing in intensity in this forum. Maybe because they think people are afraid to call them on it, or maybe it's because they perceive that people are just not paying attention to their nonsensicle tirades any more. It's a shame, really, that environmentalists and environmentalism should be under constant attack in a supposed Democratic forum. I see this sort of garbage in other forums on the web all the time and have learned to expect it. But I do think that this forum should be different. This is a Democratic forum, and environmentalists are one of the prime constituencies of the Democratic party. If this is supposed to be a place for Democrats to discuss the issues that are important to Democrats, then (in my opinion) the moderators should be more aggressive in weeding the neo-cons out.

[Xithras]

42. Faux environmentalism doesn't help anybody.

People who commute 50 miles to work in their Prius aren't saving the world (a real environmentalist wouldn't commute). People who replace a half dozen lightbulbs with CFL's in their 3500 square foot McMansion aren't doing a damned thing to help the world.

The argument isn't against environmentalism, but against feel-good greenwashing that does little to help the environment, but is primarily aimed at assuaging guilty egos. Reduce your driving? Naaah, just replace a few lightbulbs to neutralize your carbon footprint. Worried about the CO2 emissions from your Escalade? Just go plant a tree. Concerned about all of the native wildlife displaced when your shiny new subdivision was put in? Go pimp Al Gore's new movie so you can feel like you're "doing something".

That isn't environmentalism.

QUIT driving. Plant a DOZEN trees. Fill in your POOL. Live in a SUSTAINABLE way. This new breed of Ego Environmentalism is just as damaging as freeper denial.

[losthills]

43. We know what environmentalism is, thanks.

And we know why neo-cons come here to attack it.

[Xithras]

49. Are you calling me a neo-con?

Let's not devolve this into a pissing contest to see who's compost pile is bigger, but I challenge you to deny that faux environmentalism is a problem. Too many people call themselves environmentalists because they "support the environment" without doing a damned thing to actually support it or live sustainably.

[DainBramaged]

44. You missed his points entirely

But that's to be expected. His single most important point was that environmentalism is more than just buying a hybrid. It is a lifestyle change, and for the Nation, not for a few individuals.


And the Mods should be weeding the Neo-cons out of GD-P and the guns lover forums, not here.

[losthills]

46. I didn't miss a thing.

There were no valid points in that psychotic rant. And it's still there for all to see. If you were an environmentalist, then you would be as offended as the rest of us are. But, unfortunately, you are not....

[DainBramaged]

47. Let me put my hair shirt on and flagellate myself for not meeting your standards

What bullshit. When you live carbon free you can call your self an environmentalist. Right now you are simply a fool.

[Dogmudgeon]

48. Here's the lowdown

I support nuclear energy development. Perhaps you don't agree with me. That's fine. I trust you can discuss the issue without having an emotional meltdown. Some people can't.

There are also other supporters of nuclear energy in this forum. Many of them are hard-asses, especially those who can argue the point intelligently. I am not a hard-ass, though. It just isn't my style. I make occasional tweaks and wise-ass cracks, but I take none of this personally. I'm not good at administering sustained, humiliating, and painful punishment. There is no thrill in it for me. I should probably learn the craft, but it's a low priority for me.

So it's not all that painful to attack me.

Therefore, I am easy to attack. I don't inflict much pain, and I give my adversaries a lot of space to make their points, save face, turn the argument back to dialog, etc. Since it's low-risk, they choose to pick fights with me -- just like any bully puffing his chest out and strutting for the approval of his peer-group.

It doesn't bother me. This is the Internet. Their words have no real poison, and their rage carries no threat. Their bullying is ineffective. They are welcome to try to convince me otherwise, but they can't so much as make a rational argument, let alone a convincing one.

They rant, they rave, they insult, they (falsely) accuse me of being in the pay of Dick Cheney, they throw the kitchen sink, they stamp their feet and show the world what is really behind the avatars of peace signs, marijuana leaves, Lennon/Guthrie/the Dalai Lama/etc. Anything but adult dialog about the serious challenges our world faces. They can only deal with people who agree with them, who flatter and praise them for the rightness of their thinking.

I think it's rather sad, but there it is.

--p!

[DainBramaged]

52. "Green" bullies are no different than "carbon" bullys

You've done an outstanding job of explaining your positions and they are refreshing, but the elitists among us (especially this thread) think they have all of the answers.


And they are the ones who are the least carbon free. Just look how they power their computers!:eyes:

[Dogmudgeon]

53. Thanks for the words of support!

Bullies only bother me when they get in my face -- and are armed. The green bullies are toothless. When they start hunting down Internet people they don't like and killing us, then I'll worry.

The real loss is that instead of protecting the environment and/or humankind, they end up protecting their egos and their mindsets. Meeting the challenges of the future is not likely to be entirely comfortable, pleasing, or flattering for anybody. Getting one's way (mine included) will be off the agenda real quick.

--p!

[losthills]

54. Green Bullies?

What a farce....

[Dogmudgeon]

56. You got that right!

But then again, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x134206#134576">it`s in what I wrote.

Ho-ho-ho!™

--p!
Green Giant® brand, The Green Giant™, and the phrase "ho-ho-ho!™" are the registered trademarks of General Mills, Inc.

[losthills]

50. Let's see if I understand you correctly....

Your avatar is General Motors, your slogan is "Only Teamsters can deliver the goods," your identity is wrapped up in automobile manufacturing and diesel truck driving, and you purport to be an authority on who is allowed to call themselves environmentalists?

You seem angry, and more than a bit confused, like your buddies on this thread who routinely denigrate and belittle any positive news that comes out on energy and environmental issues. It seems self evident to me, as an environmentalist, that American auto manufacturers producing hybrids is a good thing that should be encouraged. You, as a representative of the United Auto Workers and the Teamsters, have a problem with that. It's hard to understand what that problem might be, but I'd have to guess it has something to do with money.....

[DainBramaged]

51. It has to do with you preaching to everyone who doesn't agree with your "environmentalism"

And you so completely misread everything in this thread it's not worth discussing with you further. Get your head out of your ass and realize that even though I am Union, I believe the solution rests not just on hybrid cars, but a NATIONAL attitude change towards how we do business and how we consume goods.


Goodbye. Oh, and the trees I planted when my daughter was born shade her front yard now. And that was 20 years ago.

[NJmaverick]

32. Hybrids are GOOD

It's also GOOD to encourage any and all vehicles to be produced as hybrids. It's illogical and counter productive (to our goal of energy independence) to discourage hybrids.

[DainBramaged]

58. Two last items for the non-believers

http://www.helium.com/tm/304583/idling-bumper-bumper-gridlock

The area in Ontario where the initial smelting for the Toyota Prius batteries occurs has become barren and scarred and lifeless in the less than two decades that the smelting plant has been situated there. The rain now falls acid, plant life has long since withered, and no wildlife exists for miles around.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/COL14/802210312/1081

Incidentally, the 344 gallons of gasoline saved by driving a Tahoe hybrid rather than an Expedition or Armada is greater than the reduction in fuel use the EPA predicts by switching from a mid-size gasoline-only Chevrolet Malibu to a compact Toyota Prius hybrid.

[lectrobyte]

59. That nickel mine thing is very tired, do some googling and see that

at most Toyota has bought 1/2 percent of their output for use in batteries in the last few years, otherwise the mine has been in operation for 40 years or more supplying nickel which is mainly used in making chrome, stainless steel etc. Yeah, you might save more gas going from a 14 to a 20 mpg car than going from a 30 mpg to a 60 mpg one, but total usage is still horrible for the SUVs.

[DainBramaged]

60. What's tired are the enviro-elitists who deny the total package of activism

and feel Toyota is the god of green.

Fuck Toyota.

Maybe they should be cleaning up the site instead of moving on.

To China, where there are NO environmental laws.

[lectrobyte]

61. God of green?

If you say so.