convince me to go solar this year.

[mopinko]

getting ready to build an addition to my house. (meeting with the architect today.) it is on the south end of the building, and will obviously be passive solar, and as highly insulated as possible. we also plan some pv, and hot water, and a green roof.
this will all add up to a whole lot more than just replacing what we are replacing. there are some rebates in our state, set to expire at the end of the year. things are getting more efficient, and cheaper, all the time, it seems. and if my man barack wins, i expect to see some good incentives.
so, it is kinda nerve racking to think about investing now, when i know it is going to get better soon.

what would you do?

[Captain Hilts]

1. Get a solar mechanism to HELP your electric/gas hot water heater. Not expensive...

and in use all throughout the world, except here.

[Lorien]

2. If I could afford it I would do it in a heartbeat

have you ever tried to live without any power for weeks at a time? I did after hurricane Charley and it was just hell (Florida, in AUGUST). I've seen enough evidence on peak oil to know that EVERYONE should be considering solar if they can swing it.

[liberal N proud]

6. Same here

[iconoclastic cat]

3. Okay, go solar or I'll shave your cats! nt

[mopinko]

19. no cats. just short haired dogs.

[0007]

4. Talk to your DHY Parrot

and then check out your utilities bills.

[mopinko]

20. my parrot is grey.

and yes, my utility bills are staggering. but still, everything i see is getting faster, better, cheaper. like computer technology.
just the other day bought a 100G hard drive for what i once paid for 20M.
that is what i am talking about.

[Teaser]

5. If you go solar now, I'll hook you up with this hot chick I know

convinced?

[jpak]

7. Federal solar tax credits (30% of total cost) expire at the end of 2008 as well

thanks to Bush and the GOP.

There is also no guarantee of a Dem victory in November (just visit GD-P if you don't believe me).

:evilgrin:

Better get her done...

[brystheguy]

10. Can't do it yourself and count?

Found this while researching after reading this post.

To be eligible for the solar hot water system tax credit, the system must be certified by the Solar Rating and Certification Corporation (SRCC) and produce 50% or more of the hot water needed by the residence. There is no qualification provided for PV systems. Individuals may claim tax credits for either or both types of solar systems.

So, according to the above, one could not construct a solar hot water system yourself and have it count toward the credit?

[jpak]

11. Yes - if you build a DYI (non-SRCC certified) solar hot water system you can't claim the fed credit

However, if you buy a SRCC certified system and install it yourself, you can still claim the tax credit.

This is to make sure folks buy and install solar hot water systems that will work properly and last a long time.

Makes sense to me...

[brystheguy]

17. Good deal. I like to do things myself. n/t

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

15. SRCC system certification (OG300) is

only available for systems installed by the installer. OG100 is component certification (the panel) and is something that a competent homeowner can, but shouldn't do. The tax credit doesn't specify the system must be OG300 certified - but just that it's "certified by" the SRCC. The language is vague, and can lead to trouble with John Q. Homeowner trying to install system's that wind up freezing/bursting/etc. I would recommend getting a qualified installer. Unfortunately, there is still no nationally recognized installer certification for solar thermal like there is for PV (NABCEP is the gold standard for PV installers). Go with a company that has a long track record of quality. I'm seeing more and more folks deciding they want to start renewable energy companies since fed and state incentives started popping up - some with absolutely no experience installing solar (one guy is a landscaper who wants to add solar to his product line...

-ROC

[brystheguy]

16. Thanks for the clarification.

I was just doing some looking around at all of these systems and it's pretty bewildering. There are several variations of systems and companies. Is there a website that rates any of these systems or makes suggestions? I'm fairly confident in my ability to install a system as I have plumbing experience and construction experience but I'll probably visit a couple of places to get a look at what I'll be in for to make sure. Again, thanks for clearing up the certification issue.

[Rabbit of Caerbannog]

18. here is a link

from SCRR: http://www.solar-rating.org/participants/participants.htm

DISLCAIMER: I am affiliated with SRCC. Having said that - I still strongly advocate for professional installation (thermal and PV) to help avoid the black eye the industry got back in the 70s and 80s when every Tom, Dickhead, and Harry decided to become solar installers. Systems crashed, houses were damaged, consumer trust was in the crapper, and the industry is STILL struggling to regain legitimacy.

[mopinko]

21. i have hope, and also

i know the chicago people behind this campaign. we will win. yeah, been to gd-p. but still...

[phantom power]

8. If you're thinking about tax-credits...

I would take the bird in the hand and do it this year. I would not assume anything is "going to get better soon," for a variety of reasons.

[jpak]

12. As long as the GOP can filibuster, there is no guarantee that Dems can restore solar tax credits

To be absolutely sure, we need a solid 60+ vote majority in the Senate...that will take some doin'...

[mopinko]

23. i think we will accomplish that as well.

:shrug: many people see that we are on the wrong road.

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Things may be better for solar, later, but they will be continuously

worse for mainline grid power, sooner. Holding out for better in a couple years would be, I think, a mistake compared to getting off the grid ASAP - and besides, building in the solar now would be less expensive than retro-fitting later, even if the current incentives are not up to what might happen in a couple years.

(I wish that was a dilemma I could afford to face, I say from my one-bedroom apt.)

[Lorien]

13. From the looks of the economy, big purchases are better made now

because inflation could price many things out of our reach in the near future. And yes, I agree that there could be substantial savings in building now over retrofitting later.

[mopinko]

22. i will not be able to get off the grid.

my family and house are just too big.
if i were to hold off, i would hold off the whole project.

[GreenGreenLimaBean]

14. i put 3kw of solar on my house last year.....

they generate about $50 of electricity a month...my cost was $7,500...Austin Energy paid the bulk of the cost, around $14k...i am eligible for the federal tax credit which i plan on taking...but even after all this, my payback period is 14 years at current prices....i would still do it again, but my PV installer told me I would get the biggest bang for my dollar by going for energy savings thru efficiency, rather than generation..things like more insulation in the attic, sealing windows/doors, solar screens, CFLs, etc....i have slowly been doing those things and last month I got my electic bill down to $23.00 ....

hopefully this info will help you make an informed decision....
cheers,

[TheWraith]

24. Don't go solar. Not worth it. You want renewable, get wind.

You can get a small wind system, enough to break even on your power bill or better, for well under $10k if you shop around and get a good deal. Solar just can't even come close to competing with that price.

[mopinko]

28. i want wind. i think i have enough wind.

i live in the bowl of lake michigan, and it is windy enough to bend the growth of a lot of the trees. but my architect says it has to be 50 ft above the ground to be worth it. that i cannot do, afaik. 30ft max set by building code.
couldn't find the pic i was looking for, but the chicago center for green technology has some really cool wind turbines. they are cylinders of aluminum blades, like ribbons wrapped around a tube. they are beautiful and efficient.

[TheWraith]

41. 30 feet still isn't bad. You'd get more power at 50, yes, but it's not entirely necessary.

You just have to increase the rated capacity of the turbines to compensate. On eBay you'll sometimes see packages of 6 1200 watt turbines going for ~$2500 plus shipping. These would give more than enough rated capacity to meet the needs of the average household, even if you had to settle for less than ideal hight. Add in the roughly $3k cost of a grid-tie inverter and equipment, and if you do the labor yourself you're out the door for under $6k.

[Ready4Change]

25. If money is an issue,..

Do insulation, solar water, then solar PV.

If it's still an issue, when buying the PV system, underby on the PV's and buy extra capacity on the charge controller/interties. That way you can upgrade your system later just by adding more panels, rather than upgrading EVERYTHING.

[all.of.me]

26. Whatever you do now helps.

Last fall, I added solar domestic hot water. It cost 7500 and will payback in about 5 years, estimating propane price increases. On sunny days, the hot water heater doesn't turn on at all. I have 2 teenage girls, so hot water usage is substantial.

I also added a solar greenhouse for heat and food. Right now, it pre-heats the air for the main part of the house. I don't have to build a fire until way after dark. When I finally get around to growing food (we're still building, so we missed this winter growing season), I'll offset my grocery bill, too. And I already have people asking to buy greens from me!

Seal up your house, too. We can take care of our envelopes before doing solar or wind, to make a huge difference. Replace old windows (even 10 year old windows are outdated), add insulation in the ceiling, caulk doors and windows, and have good window coverings.

But, yeah, go solar. I love it. No moving parts, like wind generation. The greenhouse has this wonderful feel to it as heat radiates from the surfaces. There are no cold spots!

[mopinko]

33. we will be doing a roof top green house.

we will loose a little yard space, currently occupied by the garden. we will be doing a green roof on the existing house, and a greenhouse topping the addition.

[yurbud]

27. Ed Begley backs this company that leases you solar for cost of your usual electric bill

It doesn't get much cheaper than that.


http://renu.citizenre.com/

[mopinko]

34. that is pretty interesting, but

the plan really is to invest in this stuff now, expecting low or no energy bills to help us in retirement. i know a lot of baby boomers are thinking the same thing.
why oh why did st raygun have to screw us on this? no, i know why. just sayin'

[NNadir]

29. If you sit around waiting for solar to get cheaper, and considering as an "investment..."

...you're in really, really, really, really, really, really common company.

About 7 billion people - the vast majority of whom are not meeting with an architect to increase the floor space area of their houses - have joined you in waiting for solar to become cheaper.

Last I looked, collectively they were participating in this game for more than 50 years - stretching back to the invention of the solar PV cell in 1954.

Be sure, by the way, to insist that any neighbors you have who have trees in the way of your light cut them down...

[mopinko]

31. nope, no trees.

have a clear, beautiful south exposure. current zoning prohibits any taller buildings on the block. not that that can't change, but it is unlikely.
mostly looking at this as a long term investment. something for retirement, which is still 15 years off.

[jpak]

36. Nonsense

[NNadir]

39. The scale on the upper graph shows how misleading the "solar will save" us club is.

Note that the scale is on "hundreds of dollar" per peak watt, meaning that in 1965 it would have cost $40,000 to light a 100 watt light bulb at noon in bright light on a cloudless day.

The lower graph shows that one can now light a 100 watt light bulb at noon in bright light on a cloudless day for $470.00.



This was fine on a $100,000,000 space mission maybe, but not for, say migrant workers - about whom yuppie brats couldn't care less - picking artichokes in California, or for climate change ravaged refugees in Chad.

Therefore the upper graph is meaningless inasmuch as it applies to maybe the wealthiest 2% citizens of the world.

The second graph shows that for the last 8 years, the "solar will become cheaper because it's more widely used" crap is well, crap.

For 8 years I've been sitting here listening to anti-nuke fundies announce almost daily that solar is about to become affordable, and we still have yuppie brats predicting the same damn thing, day in day out, day in day out. As the lower graph shows, for the last 4 years (roughly) the anti-nuke fundie yuppie brats, stoned out of their collective gourds on whatever the hell they drink at yuppie dinners, whatever it is they smoke, and maybe carbon monoxide leaking from their collection of wood stoves, can't compare two numbers.

And of course, there's always this standby for the great solar revolution, the EIA data:

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/trends/table1.html

It shows that over the last decade, solar electricity has wasted more energy (on website promotions) than it has produced.

Solar electricity is a toy for yuppie brats, and nothing more. As a form of energy it remains as trivial as it was 8 years ago, as it was 20 years ago.

It is not now, has never been, and likely will never be, a significant form of electrical power generation, not any where, at any time.

Those who think that it will be a significant form of energy are simply engaging in denial because they couldn't care less about the dire catastrophe facing the real world, probably because they live in some kind of bubble of wealth and privilege wherein they know nothing, produce nothing and do nothing. Mostly these are people who are ill-informed, indifferent, and intentionally ignorant.

[jpak]

40. Sorry to burst your molten salt bubble, but PV prices are *falling*

and no amount of screeching, kicking, floor-pounding and breath-holding will change that...

:D

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. Actually, I think the argument is pretty simple

The cost of solar is getting down to the point where the labor for installation is close to the half the cost.
http://www.solar-energy-connection.com/solar-panels/solar-panels-cutting-the-cost-47

If you don't put solar on now, you'll put some other sort of roof on (pay for the materials and the labor) and then, at some future date, you'll pay for labor all over again.

Looking at it quite simplistically (even neglecting incentives):

    Today's Cost:      Tomorrow's cost:
    Solar Shingles     Normal Shingles (installed today)
    Labor              Labor (today's labor)
                       Solar panels (or shingles)
                       Labor (tomorrow's labor)
    ==============     ==========================
    (Labor × 2)†       (Labor × 2) + Materials

    † The cost of the solar shingles is about equal to the cost of the labor

Put solar shingles on when you build.

[mopinko]

32. if we put it off, we will put off building anything.

not building until we can go solar.

[OKIsItJustMe]

35. Well, that means the case is more difficult to make

at least from a purely financial standpoint.

However, from an ecological standpoint... well, I don't know... when is the right time to start fighting "Global Warming?"

[skids]

37. House Equity value

Try to get a number on the equity it adds to the house,
and think of that in terms of the mortgage. Because
house values are plummeting, but not so much the values
of solar-equipped houses, which are still selling pretty
well while the market is tanking.

If the bank can be told the house value is increasing,
because you can find an assessor that can accurately
price in the solar equipment taking into account their
market premium (might be difficult) and the tax burden
in your town isn't huge, then that might be a winner
right there -- while everyone else's equity is
plummeting and some are going upside-down, your collateral
actually gained value. That should put you in the
"mortgages we want to keep" pile.

[mopinko]

38. we're already in the "want to keep" pile.

and values here, although they are sliding a little, are still good, and it will take a serious depression to ruin them. we have owned for a long time, and owe little. as it stands it is worth at least twice what we could possibly spend. mortgage payments could be stretch out to a bearable payment, also.
it is a money decision, but one that we hold the cards.