Greece's Middle Class Revolt against Austerity. "We Won't Pay"

[dixiegrrrrl]

This is the key point of the article, I do encourage reading it.

"business owners' absolute refusal to pay any taxes resembles an uprising of the ownership class, rather than the working class, a rebellion of the self-employed business owners who have long been the backbone of Greek society."

"Standing in his small store, Belitsakos makes a sweeping gesture and says that the people in his movement no longer have a choice. "The state will kill us," he says. "We're acting in self-defense." Then he starts to do the math. Over the last two years, his sales have massively shrunk as 60 of the tavernas and restaurants he used to make deliveries to have terminated their contracts with him. At the same time, the government has raised the value-added tax (VAT) twice while imposing a never-ending series of new fees. He mentions the €300 ($406) one-time fee for the self-employed, a two-percentage-point boost in the VAT, a €180 solidarity levy for the unemployed and a property tax that is "easily a few hundred euros every year."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,787847,00.html

[truedelphi]

1. it's interesting that over the last week, several people

have made mention of the fact that the "National Security" measures taken after Nine Eleven ensure that we the people cannot do very much about our situation as it deteriorates.

We all need to examine the fact that the biggest terrorists among us will continue to plunder the economy, while telling us it is the fault of Granma and Granpa, rather than pointing the finger at themselves for taking Nine to Thirty trillions of Dollars out of the Federal Reserve...

History shows us that when people have physical power over their officals, much will change in the manner that it needs to. Even the British in the 1600's, would go en masse to an offical's home and start threatening that personage with verbal abuse, with promise of worse to come, if changes weren't made.

But here our populace will meet with weaponry specially designed to burn our skin, to impair our hearing, to push us away - just from being out in the streets.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. NWO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

[femrap]

22. That 'fencing'

thing in NYC over the weekend was a new one for me. Is this what they're going to use on young women? Fence 'em and mace 'em? Is that the new way?

And seeing all those cops surrounding that silly gold bull...I thought it was funny. But not quite as funny as when all the Fundies had their hands on the silly gold bull and their Bibles in the other when the Markets were collapsing a few years back.

Home Land Security....think of all the $$$$ lost in creating that new Dept. of the Gov't.

But not to end on a sad note, enjoy the following laugh:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/sunday-morning-politicomedy-snl-does-gop

[PassingFair]

3. Sounds some of the contractors I work with. Most of them were Bush supporters.

All of them HATE paying taxes, because they have
to WRITE CHECKS to pay it.

Working stiffs have it taken out every week,
and sometimes get tax REFUNDS!! Easy-Peasy.

I have been on both sides of the divide, and
I have to say, I hated paying taxes when I was
a small business owner, but at least when I was
making the money, I paid them without complaint.

In 1998, I paid more in taxes than I MADE in 2003.

Greeks need to pay their taxes if they are making money.
If they are not making money, they should have social
safety nets in place.

There is a difference between "WON'T PAY" and "CAN'T PAY".

Let's hope our governments can discern the difference.

[tama]

4. Ever though about it this way?

Wy should we pay taxes for bank bail-outs - and military imperialism, corporate socialism, corrupt politicians, police brutality etc.?

When it day by day becoming clearer that they use our tax money only to rob us and rob the whole planet, why should we pay? Instead of using what resources we have to create our own social networks, social networks that are not based on robbing others with the threat of violence?

[PassingFair]

7. Participatory Democracy is the best way we have to...

"...create our own social networks, social networks that are not based on robbing others with the threat of violence?"

That's why we should pay taxes.

AND that's why we need to keep a close
eye on how the taxes are spent.

[tama]

11. But what if

you would come to the conclusion as a Greek citizen and free man, that governent and the whole system no longer represents your interests and search for good life, but only the most short sighted and destructive interests of the Troika and the financial elites, with ever increasing part of national product robbed as "interest" by the loan sharks?

Or as American or what ever citizen and a free man, such conclusion that there is no going forward without the whole global ponzi scheme collapsing - and that process is allready happening and takes years - and if there is no other way to clear the debt bubble than to let the whole system tilt - preferably as softly as possible - jubileum, nulling all debt some way or another and then trying something else than this old and tired insanity of system based on interest and growth ideology, politics of greed.

[PassingFair]

15. Then you move out of Greece.

Or you participate in the democratic system to
ensure that the money spent on programs that
float ALL boats.


As long as I see that my unemployed neighbor
has enough to eat and keep his children in
school, I know that my taxes are going, at least
in part, to the betterment of the populace.

I fucking KNOW that he WANTS to work.

There are no jobs for him here that pay a living
wage.

[tama]

23. This land is your land

this land is my land. Not corporate land, not land of corrupt governement wanting to dislocate the people and steal the land. Current system is not democratic in any sense of the word, democracy starts with saying no to corruption and oppression.

Your neighbour is getting crumbs. If you were not forced to give the lions share of the fruits of your labor to the military-industrial complex etc., you would have much more resources to help your neighbours.

[sam11111]

5. confusing OP quote. Q.: were tax cuts for the rich the origin of their Debt, as it has been here?

Ditto , cause rest of europe Debt?

Thank you
Sam

[dixiegrrrrl]

6. Tax cuts for the rich were not the cause of the problem here or there.

Much of the so called "debt" is paper losses that the banks created and do not want to pay,
the losses made them insolvent,
but they did not want to admit to being insolvent and to having trillions of losses on paper,
so they got the governments to GIVE them OUR money ( remember TARP here? Europe got some of that money too).
And then they continued to gamble with the money they got, lost MORE of it, demanded MORE free money, etc until they bled the countries dry.
Now they are trying to force countries into ruinous taxes so they can have even MORE money.

Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone has done a whole series of articles on this mess, he writes in clear language, I would recommend starting there.

[truedelphi]

8. I would agree with everything you are saying, but do wish to point out that

those who claim a "conservative" philosophy of economics (not that they actually do) started an entire mythology of how bad it is that the nation is in debt (At least with regards to the USA.)

And if those "conservatives" really feel that a nation being in debt is so awful, then they either should

1) Damn well end all the expensive, expanding, non-winnable wars

Or
2) Tax the richest people and companies so that the wars will be paid for.

[dixiegrrrrl]

10. No disagreement there.

Of course, it is quite obvious that those "fiscal conservatives" apply the same distorted logic to the economy as they do to human life: abortion is murder, but sending young men off to war to kill other young men and civilians, is just dandy, especially if a profit is to be made.
What's a little death and debt to others as long as THEY make out fine, eh?

[sam11111]

13. thanks grrrl. you are right - partly. I submit that a larger sum by far is seen in having

up to 20% of the fed Budget missing since rr's huge tax cuts for the rich. ( t c f t r.) From about 70% to 38%. Forgive me for rough estimates - don't have time to do authoritative math on this.

Also add in the other t c f t r --those from LBJ to rr.

((Aside: a normal 90% or so rate existed from Truman to the end of LBJ.))

90% to 35 now -- a HUGE loss of revenue over the decades it has blocked Revenue and thus run up a Debt.

Other things contributed but t c f t r dwarf them.

IMHO. Oh, and thanks for the polite reply.
Sam
If 1.5 T is avg Budget, during last 43 yrs and 20% missing
.3 X 43 = 12.9 Trillion missing due to t c f t r.
I do not claim perfection for these rough estimates.
Polite refinement of figures welcome.

PS. and now they want grandma to pay the $15 trillion debt. Incredible!

[sam11111]

14. PS "half of Revenues come from the rich" so if they now pay 1/3 what was normal '45-'68 then HALF of

the Fed Budget is missing.

Because of t c f t r.

So my 20% estimate above is a lowball...should be 50% most likely. Somewhat less during '68 - '81.

Anyone have an acedemic's figures for t c f t r starving the Revenue?

"It never was overspending (homeless are dying in the streets) - it was low Revenue"

[dixiegrrrrl]

16. I AM grandma, and I am BROKE!!!

Tell you what is happening tho....rapidly growing underground economy.
Easy to see in these parts.
some barter, mostly a lot of direct cash transactions. The plumber, the auto mechanic, the roofer, the yard workers, etc. Most every able bodied guy has a "side job" on weekends, cash only.

Around here, in the 6 month summer season, a guy with a riding lawnmower can make well over 100.00 cutting 2 large lawns a day. ( large yards here, 1/2 acre minimum)

One guy does 5 lawns on my block every 6 weeks, 5 lawns on the next block the next day, repeat all down the neighborhood. Cash.

[bemildred]

19. But confiscatory tax rates at the top would "disincentivize" this sort of financial masturbation.

So in that sense, tax cuts for the rich does contribute to this sort of speculative fraud.

[tama]

24. Tax havens for the rich

you know, let's be real.

[jtuck004]

9. K&R. You often come up with interesting stuff that illuminates really important things.

Thank you for your efforts. I saw your suggestion about watching the series "Meltdown" on Al Jazeera English as well - you were right, everyone ought to make the effort to watch it. There's nothing new for anyone that has been a student of this, but it does make some good points, and maybe, just maybe, people who aren't interested in reading blogs and books will watch it and become inspired. Or at least it could become training material for the groundwork that has to be done before change can really happen.

This article describes a nice reversal. Instead of the greedy, immoral financial sector creating a crisis that benefits themselves, it's the property-owning person refusing to do the will of the wealthy and powerful that is precipitating this one. Somewhere he and others replaced fear with the courage to take the hit that most Americans seem afraid to endure. Or perhaps they are just not aware that change is possible.

Another line from the article is particularly on point "You Can't Lose If You Don't Play". I suspect most people will read that and point out that he and others will lose mightily with such a strategy. They are correct, but perhaps the heaviest things they will lose are the financial chains that bind them to their masters. In this country we are losing every day - 25 million unemployed, underemployed, or disheartened people, 50 million without health insurance, 45 million on food stamps, millions who have or will be losing their homes to foreclosure over the next few years, millions in poverty or near poverty - numbers that continue to increase while just enough effort is expended by TPTB to run things a few more months, to kick the can down the road. Maybe they hope that the magic rain will soon fall and wash all our troubles away, though perhaps it's a more cynical hope that they can "get theirs and get out" before everything spins apart. Regardless, the current strategy insures that 98% of our population stays one paycheck or one illness away from poverty, from dying without healthcare, all the while living a life of desperation while a relative few enjoy the real benefits of their work.

If the 50's and 60's taught us anything, it's that any movement which seeks change requires training first. People have to be aware of what is holding them down. It's not enough to take to the streets and hope others will join, you have to replace their doubts with the knowledge that not acting is worse, identify their real opponents, create the situations where they can win. They then become a formidable force. When that is accomplished we can answer that last line, "The only question is what they really have to win".

Thanks for that.

[dixiegrrrrl]

17. I used to be an community organizer, back in the 70's.

We did a lot of "consciousness raising " about issues.
It is ALWAYS a truism that you can't be doormat unless you are lying on the floor.

[jtuck004]

20. Yup

[customerserviceguy]

12. Well, Greeks not paying taxes is nothing new

If they do get kicked out of the eurozone, even Albanians will feel sorry for them.

[dixiegrrrrl]

18. LOL...that is like our saying here:

"We are so poor even Mississippi feels sorry for us"

[OllieLotte]

21. I don't blame him. I sense he simply tired. n/t

[Yo_Mama]

25. They passed the property tax - everyone's going to be paying

The deal is that the electric companies are supposed to be collecting, and if you don't pay they cut off your electricity.

It's not a huge tax now, but it's going to be hard to avoid!