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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:00 PM
Original message
The Republicans and Wall Street brats are taking the market down on purpose.

Republican brats want the country to fail so they can blame it all on Obama. Wall Street is selling the market becuase they aren't getting everything they wanted. boo hoo..

Either way. They are going to sabotage everything Obama does. Look at the market sell off. They totally trashed any confidence. Those bastards on CNBC are nothing less than traitors. They should be charged with treason and hung by the neck until dead. Screaming "socialism" is like yelling fire in a crowed room. They are causing a panic.

I hope they're having fun because this is going to blowup right in their ugly faces.

If they don't want the country to survive they should get the fuck out.
I think they should pack up and get out right now. Why wait. They did enough damage to make themselves proud. If they leave now they could even take the loot they stole with them. If they wait for a year they will be running with nothing but the clothes on their backs.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
1. If that's so, they're shooting themselves in the foot
They need to take a lesson from Obama's town hall in Florida, today. He went to Lee County Fl,a deep red part of Florida, and the people loved him.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sanity Reason and Patriotism evades those guys....Selfish and Evil Bastids
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm happy to see them do it, frankly....
OK, happy is a bad word to describe my reaction. I'm not happy that workers, children, and retirees will suffer as a result. But I do feel that the American economy NEEDS to be reborn, that it is choking in its own excesses, and that the only way that's ever going to happen is by revolutionary economic change-- and that is going to require popular and political will that is presently lacking.

The American economic model is rotten. Tear it down, IMO.
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tosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Yeah, economic detox, or....
this economy needs an enema.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bull. This is normal market activity.
Looking at the past year, you're going to try to claim that a 350-point sell off is something unusual?

If you hear hoof beats, think horses...not zebras.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
22. You know, that sounds all very good and clear-headed and wise.
Please know, Mercutio, we've "known" each other a long time. I respect you and your opinions. I am simply sharing mine, not denigrating yours.

10 years ago, I would have absolutely agreed with you. 100% and no doubts.

But then came the 2000 Stolen Election, when the Bushie Tyrants' mask of phony benevolence has been dropped far more than it ever has before. (we must be getting closer to the Endgame for them to do that, I think)

Thus, I just can't think that way anymore. I can't think in "Conventional Wisdom" anymore, because "Conventional Wisdom", now that it has been fully Bushigandized, I believe is quite literally insane.

Just a few of the predictions, far superior to anything one can find in "Convetional Widsom" and all FULLY archived here on DU in the years 2001-3 and forward (but most of them were made in that early time fram in which my eyes first opened):

Made about JULY of 2001 as an iron-clad prediction, and repeated numerous times in numerous threads since: When Bushler leaves office in 2009 (itself a 100% accurate prediction) our nation will have $10,000,000,000 National Debt.

Sounds easy, in retrospect. Try doing 8 years BEFORE the fact. Try having the balss to say it, not with a caveat, but as an IRONCLAD FACT.

Try getting 80% of it correct in those predictions made as IRONCLAD 100% WILL HAPPEN FACTS.

How 'bout this one, made first around MAY 2002 also repeatedly archived on DU and I have witnesses who can confirm I said these things also when I said them As soon as we 'win' in Iraq, we will return torture to Iraq.

I was actually too tepid in that prediction. I NEVER imagined it would be so easily to market Torture as National Policy to the American Subject Populace, and so I thought it ould be Saddam's Torturers rehired or some CIA-trained SAVAK-type Iraqi Goons, not our army troops, doingthe torturing.

I should have known better, eh? But I fell into "Cable TV Conventional Wisdom" for a minute on that one and could not think outside of it.

We AMERICANS, so easily accepting of Torture as National Policy? NEVER!

:rofl: See what happens when one thinks in Cable TV Conventional Wisdom? WRONG 90% of the time, not correct 80% of the time, I have observed. Look at all the Cable TV Iraq Predictions. 90-100% wrong.

That, in it's own way, ae results we can learn from, too. 90-100% wrong, means it might be wise to stop listening and thinkng in that way, demontsrably proven to be nothing but and endless tape loop of incorrect analyses and predictions. NOTHING BUT WRONG. Am I exaggerating about the Iraq "Predictions"?

Anyway, so there are two concrete examples. I have more, actually a dozen more or so, also made years in advance whihc have now 100% come to pass in the form Ienvisioned or WORSE, like the torture.

I recognize this is anecdotal evidence. I also recgonize that you have been around long enough, Mercutio, to hve actually seen these things with your own eyes that I typed in DU so long ago.

Which at the time, you no doubt mocked or gently chided me for being :tinfoilhat: . That will be archived, too.

The whole point of this was that NONE of these stunningly correct predictions were not possible until I STOPPED thinking in Conventional Wisdom, in Cable TV Pundit-Think. I am not perfect, not even close, but my correct long-term predictions are about 80% of them, and only the most extreme ones were "wrong", though in the long run they may still prove prescient.

80% correct. Predictions made months and even YEARS in advance sometimes. Archived at DU and other places on the web, and entirely verifiable, if necessary.

The funny thing is, I am a scientist by profession, but it was my scientific thinking that got me here.

Results. Rigorous self-challenging and debunking makes that which it does not kill, stronger.

Much to my surprise over the last 30 years, many times I went to debunk the "Lib'rul Conspiracy Theory Moonbats", thinking "I'll show these crazies that they hurt our Party with this nonsense," I found it was Conventional Wisdom being debunked.

Like my successful predictions that arose out of my change of basic assumptions based on Cable TV Conventional Wisdom, this happened not once, but at least a dozen times.

My scientific mind kept at it. Questioning "the crazy", trying to debunk it with cold logic and fact. Most every time, the effort ended up in forcing me to question Cable TV Conventional Wisdom AGAIN.

When I finally began to accept where the data was pointing me, and I switched Cable TV Conventional Wisdom OFF, on my TV and in my soul, suddenly I could make all these predictions years in advance!

Results, you see. Observable data. Analyses of potential futures by using the past as template.

I am still a scientist by profession, Mercutio, and I still hold the scientific method in high regard, even when I am trying to connect dots out of imperfect data, and I always try to keep in my the old scientific truism, "Correlation does NOT necessarily mean causation."

I could still be wrong about my overall thesis, I understand that.

However, some of my results are on display for you, just a sampling, and I stand by what I have said.

I hope you won't flame or insult me. I have tried to be very respectful in my reply to you.

But I have proved to my own satisfaction that Cable TV Conventional Wisdom is both a lie (most of the time) and quite insane (ALL of the time between celebrity worship, Infoganda, and Punditocracy). (which is worrisome, what do nations driven insane usually eventually DO to themselves)

SOMETHING beyond the BIG LIE of Cable TV Conventional Wisdom is going on.

You may disagree to disagree, but I stand by what I have seen, my correct predictions, all roughly 12-15 of them, made well in advnace like the two I mentioned.

I stand by my words.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I hear what you're saying, but not everything is a conspiracy theory.
If your supposition is correct, why did the market soar after an agreement on the bill was announced?

The market is insane. It's 100% sure to hit a new low sooner or later, but they keep it floating along on rumor and illogical sentiment...and the smart ones make their money on the swings.

They're spooked. They're avaricious. They're spreading false guidance to protect their positions and make what money they can. I don't believe, however, that they're out to get Obama.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Well, I am looking not at a single day, but at long-term trends
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 04:43 PM by tom_paine
You are correct, not everything is a conspiracy.

But the last 8 years have shown quite conclusively, I believe, that there are more conspiracies (often taking place right in plain sight), than I had previously suspected.

Just like as if I were presenting a case for the prosecution of an accused murderer when there was no body nor murder weapon, I would say, "One coincidence, that would not be enough to have brought this case to trial; two coincidences, no way. But, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, during the last three days we have presented you with 14 seperate "coincidences" and in spite of the fact that we have no body nor weapon, we ask you to convict."

Happens every day somewhere in this country, probably more than once a day.

It is, as I understand it, a fact of being a prosecutor. Enough circumstantial evidence all pointing at the same person as being guilty of a crime is enough to convict, sometimes.

So, I am internally doing nothing more than waht proscutors do around this country every day.

Connecting the dots to make the case. Find that one last coincidence, the "straw the broke the camel's back" in terms of whichever piece of circumstantial evidence tips it over into a conviction from ALL the pieces.

I don't want to get into specifics, as that will cause this post to ramble off topic. Plus, I know you disagree already with most, if not all of them.

I know you disagree, but for me, the tipping point has passed long ago. I don't know what it is, but SOMETHING is wrong here in our nation and possibly world, and it is BIG. One too many coincidences for the prosecution, so to speak. For me, there's more than enough for conviction.

OK, I said my piece. We agree to disagree, Mercutio, and that's okey-dokey by me.

I hope you are well during these stressful and trying times.

:hi:

And yes, with all that, I am still hopeful that Obama (by which I mean the entire administration) can start turning 30 years of Bushevism back.

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CrazyLate Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. $10 trillion debt in 2009
At the rate we're spending money, we'll have a $15 trillion debt at the end of 2010, and that's barring any additional unforeseen calamities.

If I was the praying type, I would pray for whoever is in power to develop some sanity when it comes to the economy. You can't fix a collapsing bubble caused by debt by more debt, but we're going to keep on trying that. Republicans certainly are to blame for getting us into this ditch, but it doesn't mean we have to keep on digging.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Are you saying I was wildly optimistic in my mid-2001 assessment?
Edited on Thu Feb-12-09 04:08 PM by tom_paine
Yeah, probably. However, anything that happens after Bush left office is irrelevant, because I specifcally said in 2009 after Bush leaves office. As in, the day when Bush left office.

So, what was the Nat'l Debt the day Bushler left office?

Roughly $10,300,000,000,000.

So I was quite close, within 3%.

I said that 8 years ago, while we still had a little of Clinton's surplus left.
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CrazyLate Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You might've been a tad optimistic
But good call overall. Say goodbye to that surplus, it's been gone, long gone and doesn't look like it's coming back any time soon.
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. I thought it was a protest about getting sat down on
and having some rules to go by for a change. Transparency must scare the pants off of them.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. Actually...
It might be more like this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/administration-officials_n_165551.html

Could be that this is gonna be a bad thing for anybody to clean up. And maybe, Geithner needs to start listening to the likes of Reich and Krugman.
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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Sigh. Joanne, I respect you a lot, but
Everything Wall Street does is in the interests of making money. When Wall Street was plunging during the campaign, did you say that they were trying to sabatoge the election in favor of Obama?

I'm seeing a lot of posts like this today, and I think it's cognitive dissonance. The stimulus bill is not going to save us; today that is starting to dawn on people, but we still don't want to believe it's true. Nothing is going to save us. You may hate me for saying it, and can me a "doom and gloomer", but unfortunately, I'm right.

Wall Street knows that this is the end game. THAT is why stocks are sinking like a stone today.
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree with your assessment.
I suspected that we were headed for the slag-heap of history even before the economic crash happened. Not because of anybody's malfeasance, but because there are fatal, tragic flaws in how we have constructed our civilization. They may or may not spring from inherent biological flaws in human nature, but they are certainly well entrenched in our culture's way of relating to the world. The flaws feel so natural that we will believe almost anything else rather than face the simple, fundamental truth that we've based our entire civilization on an erroneous perception of ourselves. We are willing to believe that we are the victims of gigantic conspiracies rather than admit that the system we built and believed in was based on a mistake.

We have run into The Limits to Growth, in both biophysical and human systems simultaneously. The stock market crash is as much evidence of this as the Australian wildfires or the death of the oceans.

It's time to change.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I still think there is some manipulation

Remember last fall, when the first bailout bill was being debated? Somebody was sending a message that if the bailout bill isn't passed, the economy is going to collapse. Remember? The bill eventually passed.

Isn't the same thing going on today? Somebody is again sending a message that the Geithner plan needs to be approved soon, or the economy is going to collapse.

And the reason to be passed soon? So that whatever is left of our taxpayer dollars can be transferred to the banksters. And they want it transferred quickly. Because, there is going to be a collapse. And they know it. Nothing is going to save us. The stimulus bill may help with some jobs and other critical provisions. But first, the banksters want as much money as they can swindle from us.

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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. Don't get me wrong. I'm a doom and gloomer too. But I don't like winning
Edited on Wed Feb-11-09 06:29 AM by Joanne98
elections and than still get run over by the thugs. I don't agree with most of the stimulus. It's been ruined by the Republicans. But Geithner's plan wasn't as bad as I expected. CNBC is just pumping and dumping. I'm writing another rant today. Since they've started again. We may be going down as a country, but it won't be half as depressing if the criminals go to jail.
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Celebration Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. I agree n/t
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ipfilter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. There are up days, and there are down days.
They don't always coincide with the current news.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. The whole damn system could crash for all I care.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's just classic "sell on the news".
look at this chart:

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Skink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
14. Riech predicted dow 7000 in January.
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wuvuj Donating Member (874 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-10-09 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. The markets dropped because...
...Geithner said he was going to look at the books of all the banks to see what they are really holding....Paulson just gave then $ to keep them afloat and they didn't have to say what they had or what they spent the $ on?

Financials took the worst hit. Some of the worst banks are probably going to be parceled out.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well it is about time you spoke your mind - lol n/t
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
18. Please...
.. the market has hovered way higher than any sane valuation for months.

If you think this little 4% selloff is anything, just wait.


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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. 5th K&R I couldn't agree more. nt
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-11-09 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
20. Of course they are. Greater Depression leads to the next Greater War.
And it's very possible, Obama's election notwithstanding, that in the upcoming Greater War, it's we Americans' turn to play the Nazi Role, just a dlittle different. Good marketing strategy for the Bushies.

I hope I am wrong.
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AyanRand Is Dead Donating Member (85 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. They're throwing a tantrum
A treasonous corporatist tantrum
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-12-09 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
26. "Socialism" . . . most people have a positive view of socialism . ..
if they understand it - !!!

Like Communism -- which was actually "Totalitarian Communism" as J. Edgar/Mary Hoover

used to like to correctly refer to it -- the public is heavily propagandized by GOP.


The original German Socialist Party was legit --- they supported women's rights, abortion,

labor/workers -- all kinds of positive things. That's why it was co-opted by Hitler ---


As I understand it, the market rebounded when the Stimulus bill was passed . . . ??

Keep calling and e-mailing -- every day and in every way possible ---

we need national health care -- Single Payer ---

and re regulation of capitalism.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.







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