WSJ blog: Up to 42% of jobs potentially offshoreable

[antigop]

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/12/17/up-to-42-of-us-jobs-potentially-offshoreable/

Between 21% and 42% of U.S. jobs are potentially offshorable, according to research conducted by students at Harvard Business School.

The study aimed to replicate a finding by Princeton economist and former Federal Reserve Vice Chairman Alan Blinder, reported last year in the Journal. The students largely agreed with Blinder’s low-end estimate of 22%, but the high end of the range surpassed Blinder’s 29%.

Nearly 900 members of the MBA Class of 2009 participated in the study, which had students assess the potential offshorability of 800 occupations.

“We wanted students to understand that, as future business leaders, they are likely to face an unprecedented array of options concerning what they can do where,” Harvard Professor Jan W. Rivkin, who co-authored the study, told the Business School’s Web site. “The idea that you might offshore the reading of radiology films or the research done by consulting firms would have been unthinkable 25 years ago.”

The Harvard study estimated that 25.2 million to 31.8 million jobs could potentially be moved overseas. The number included high-paying white-collar positions, as well as manufacturing and other blue-collar labor.

Blinder’s study led to a contentious debate among economists about whether the benefits of globalization outweigh the pain it can cause workers. The Harvard study raises the same questions among future business leaders who might see the benefits of offshoring jobs, while understanding the danger that they could see their positions moved overseas as well.

[GoesTo11]

1. That's great news! My 401k should go way up!

And I'll need all of that money once my job has been outsourced.

Scavengers.

[ogneopasno]

2. That's why I didn't feel sorry for the guy in the posts last week who was laid off after 32 years

as an operations manager in the toy industry. I wondered how many jobs he had outsourced.

If the study would take into account the number of jobs that could be "insourced" -- sold to the lowest bidder, such as construction jobs, labor and services -- the number and affect would be even more remarkable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. I'm so proud that our universities are instilling creative problem solving.

The "problem" being me.

[leftofthedial]

4. Go for it!

Send the entire goddamned economy to some slum in some third world country.

Fucking idiots.

[Citizen Number 9]

16. I think it's great

that people who have historically looked forward to a life of poverty have an opportunity to improve their lot.

It doesn't trouble me a whole lot that they aren't US citizens. Haven't we always made an effort to improve opportunities for people outside of the US? As people get more education and better work they begin thinking about having a say in what happens.

I'm not against opportunity in the US, but I still remember one of the stupidest things I read on the Internet was some "Conservative" moron whining about how "foreigners" (who didn't even speak english) had taken away his sons' jobs.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Why is it the sole responsibility of the U.S. to improve the lots of other countries?

Furthermore, you do realize that the current "free trade" model requires the U.S. to be the market for the goods produced in those 3rd world countries, don't you? When we don't have good paying jobs, there aren't any consumers to buy the stuff that would help those poor people out of poverty. That's the major flaw in the guilt trip people like you are trying to lay and you either don't see it or refuse to acknowledge it. Many Chinese factories are idle as we speak, as warehouses are chock full of merchandise that isn't selling.

[Citizen Number 9]

44. THere is nothing in my posts

either stated or implied that says it's the sole responsibility of the US to improve the lots of other countries.

However, we know that democracy and at least half of the population does better where people have opportunity and better wages.

We seem to have enjoyed being the market for all kinds of foreign goods for some time now. I suspect that when the dust clears, the Chinese, just to use one example will be rethinking the part they have played.


We aren't the only ones with good paying jobs anymore.

[Taverner]

5. Well I'm sure this type of free trade is good for America

After all, our corporations would never do anything to hurt us

:sarcasm:

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. It's good for the "america" which Harvard MBA's prefer. n/t

[Taverner]

8. They're all looking at penthouses in Dubai anyway

At least the ones who get to do the offshoring

[blue97keet]

20. Dubai is going bust and getting a nuclear bailout from Bushco

That's right. A nuke technology deal so they can go on an A.Q. Khan style marketing spree.

[BeyondGeography]

6. The chicks are hotter offshore, too

Can I go?

[SheilaT]

9. As compared to what percent of

jobs that have already been outsourced?

Pretty soon we'll all be working for McDonald's or WalMart, except that I honestly think that they both will probably figure out ways to totally automate their stores so that no humans need apply.

[Citizen Number 9]

18. Maybe people wanting to improve their employability should consider

going into the design and implementation of automation systems.

[FormerDittoHead]

116. FYI: McDonnalds has started outsourcing drive through order takers

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/11/national/main679730.shtml

The article basically reads like a Press Release, they talk about quality of service being the issue (yeah, right), etc.

Read between the lines. The bottom line is that the same technology can easily be routed to India, where the cost of living is, well, a lot less.

[izquierdista]

10. Most offshorable job?

MBA student. I hear there's lots of them in India!

[AnneD]

11. Reading radiological films off shore........

so who do you sue if they miss the cancer and isn't that practicing medicine with out a US license. And when you off shore this and your communication network breaks up from sunspots (electomag radiation)how do you find a radiologist if they have all been off shored. THIS is the root cause of the decay in America today-taught by these ivory tower idiots that cannot conceive as to why we shouldn't off shore a third of our industry. Fucking idiots. Now I see why we are in the shape we are today.

[Citizen Number 9]

17. There's a growing shortage of US radiologists

Maybe one of the reasons is because of people who are only thinking about who they can sue for the ills that occur in their life.

[silverojo]

34. If people would just do their jobs, they wouldn't get sued

If you're a shiftless moron (as so many techs are), you deserve what you get.

[Citizen Number 9]

101. Ummmmm....

maybe you didn't realize that a Radiologist is an MD.

[Warpy]

35. Done right and with reciprocity, the Xray films read in India

would probably have an advantage over those read by an exhausted radiologist on call that night in the US. The same goes for films in India taken at night there and read here during our daylight hours.

Unfortunately, it's not done that way, is it? It's all about stiffing the US worker and expecting customers for goods and services here in the US to drop off the trees.

What we're seeing is the direct result of 40 years of suppressing the demand side of the economic equation by depressing wages. We haven't seen the brunt of it yet because the effect has been blunted by easy access to credit that seemingly never has to be paid off---just do a laughably low monthly minimum and keep on charging. Now banks are putting limits on those cards and people are suddenly facing the possibility of not being able to charge more and more.

We're seeing our economy collapse in the main part because workers are simply not being paid enough to support themselves and pay their debts.

Offshoring was just another stupidity committed in the name of keeping labor costs low. Everything wrong with this country can be traced to business's attack on labor.

Likely the jobs that are gone are gone forever since the machinery that people used to run to do them has been offshored or sold for scrap.

We're faced with the prospect of digging ourselves out of what's looking more and more like another depression while rebuilding our industrial base from the dirt up.

Maybe this time we'll have laws that protect our jobs instead of protecting the right of a few rich men to stripmine wealth out of this country. Maybe this time the silly and unfair dogma of free trade without fair trade will be buried with a stake through its rotten heart.

[northernlights]

12. one of the more critical promises Obama needs to keep

is to end tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas, and instead punish them, and reward companies that bring and keep jobs here.

Somebody should write to those sobs at Hahvahd and mention that if we all simply commit suicide on Hahvahd Yahd to prevent slow starvation, they'll be the ones living with the stench or digging holes to bury the bodies. It's not like any of'em will have a clue how to run a backhoe.

[GoesTo11]

13. After outsourcing all the earning, we can outsource the buying too!

The initial idea is that cheap foreign labor will produce goods, which will be bought at basically current US prices by US consumers. That's the profit formula. But after all the outsourcing, we won't be able to buy the stuff. So companies can sell the same stuff to the foreign countries where people have jobs. The prices will have to be lower, of course. End result: US companies basically switches places with third world countries. Effin' Genius it is.

[sarcasmo]

14. In a related story, India wants the H1B visa numbers raised this year.

[Hannah Bell]

15. india wants? try microsoft wants.

[JohnWxy]

19. I wonder if any economists have done a study on how much goods you could sell to a nation which had

outsourced 42% of it's jobs? Also, we can't all work at McDonalds and Burger King - and who would your customers be? Are Indians going to order out from McDonalds. That's a pretty long delivery.

[fedsron2us]

21. Do the benefits of globalization outweigh the pain ?

One look at the current state of the world economy should answer that question.

[Citizen Number 9]

22. If you are referring to all the economies going down together...

I think that is good.

Takes a little edge off the jealousy factor and makes us all pull together.

[fedsron2us]

23. No jealousy just reality mate

It was the US economy that was funding the offshore jobs using borrowed money. Now that source of cash has been squeezed out of existence many of those overseas jobs will go. The globalist goose is cooked though I suspect you have not realized it yet. Most of the worlds major economies are engaged in competitive currency devaluations, bailouts of their domestic industries (including finance) and protecting their own commercial position by use of implicit or explicit tariffs.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ae7iPsOtuxcQ&refer=home

It will be trade wars first and then shooting wars later. Just as happened in the 1930s.

nb - You can not have free trade without true repricocity and that has never really existed as many of the US trade partners, particularly Japan and China, have run mercantilist foreign policies and continually gamed the currency system. Sadly, for them the sky is now black with chickens flying home to roost.

[Citizen Number 9]

24. Interesting theory,

I wonder if it is correct.

Maybe time will be the best proof of whether it is or not.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

26. You go first.

Volunteer to give your job away. Or STFU.

[Citizen Number 9]

27. Volunteer to give my job away?

Why would I do that? I work hard to keep myself in demand.
No one "owes" you anything, including a job. You're the only one who has ultimate control over that.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. I think you made a wrong turn

Free Republic is thataway --------> That bootstraps shit doesn't fly here. It's exactly the kind of mentality that got the economy where it is.

And whatever it is you do, I'm certain there's someone in another country who can and will do it for less. Now go find that person and give him/her your job or STFU.

[Citizen Number 9]

29. Not all Democrats believe that everything is someone else's fault

Some of us have to make the juice for everyone else to look at with big eyes.

I'm not a bootstrapper, but I do believe that only the owner of the boots can decide where the boots go.

By the time some other person has "stolen" my job I will have gained enough experience, become more skilled or figured out what else I can do to get a better job. There's nothing that says someone owes you a job, particularly if your approach is to behave like you are more deserving than anyone else.

[Elwood P Dowd]

30. Like the Cat Burgler said, go the hell back to the Freeper board.

"By the time some other person has "stolen" my job I will have gained enough experience, become more skilled or figured out what else I can do to get a better job. There's nothing that says someone owes you a job, particularly if your approach is to behave like you are more deserving than anyone else."

That is typical repuke bullshit talking points.

[Citizen Number 9]

40. If that's the case, then

I guess that not everything they say is worthless, huh?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Citizen Number 9]

48. So far,

the sum total of your contribution here has been to misidentify me and what I stand for.

Not everything good is sweet.

Maybe if you try sticking to the discussion you'd learn something.

[notesdev]

31. Oh naive one

just wait until it doesn't matter how good you are at your job, corporate policy is to replace your kind with H1-Bs, or to "offshore" the work, or a hundred other ways to make how good you may or may not be at your job meaningless.

[StreetKnowledge]

33. You say that bullcrap and You're hanging out at DU?

Seriously?

After how many million jobs have been tossed out so that some MBA dipshit can make a few bucks more profit, and you want to come here and defend these dirtbags? After we know that everyone else plays the game for their benefit. No, we can't do that, right?

Screw off. Free Republic is ------> that way.

[Citizen Number 9]

41. The jobs aren't "tossed out"

I think the thrust of this thread is that they go outside the US - to someone who can do them more cheaply, perhaps.

[HughBeaumont]

36. So much dumb, I don't know where to begin . . .

Point by Point why Offshoring jobs is unnecessary, wasteful and economically stupid.

. . . also illogical . . .

. . . and over-assumptive.

Support of job offshoring is NOT a progressive position

There are better ways, of course.

Workers, the most important part of economic success, are getting screwed worse and worse with each passing year.

[Citizen Number 9]

51. Hugh, I think I see what is happening

I slogged through all those two-year old pages from your journal even though most of what you were reacting to wasn't anything I have said.

But it was instructive, even the fact that you didn't bother to actually reply directly.

The "progress" of society may be outstripping the abilities of a growing number of people to actually deal with it. You think offshoring is all about greed, but I can tell you that business is running out of qualified workers here in the US. An economy that protects only the worker within the confines of the US is unsustainable. We had it for a while, when the US was the richest country in the world, but things change. It's the human condition and people need to be able to respond to it. A political solution is temporary and, well, unsustainable.

These items from your blog were particularly telling

"School bored the living shit out of me... So why am I doing it? Because I HAVE to.

Do we keep playing this never-ending game of employee musical chairs? When does the continual "retraining" stop before burnout, depression and unhappiness take over? Your job is not your life."

Labor has been the human condition for thousands of years. If you can't come to terms with either labor or education, I can see why you'd be getting upset.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

55. It's not about "progress". It's about greed, theft, and exploitation.

Unfettered capitalism is a toxic system that destroys everything in its wake - people and the environment. Profits and unending "growth" are what drives it and the whole point is to get more money in the hands of fewer people. It's nothing but a giant Ponzi scheme.

[Citizen Number 9]

59. Agreed. There is a group, that given 30 years of unfettered capitalism

could effectively own everyone else due to their greed, theft, exploitation and, not inconsequentially, their skills and abilities.

However, our system is far from being unfettered capitalism.

I'm not alone in believing that making opportunity available to everyone is one of the most important functions of our Democratic system. Things get much more difficult after that. What do you do with the folks who refuse to take opportunity in favor of some other questionable self-interest for fear of using a different word?

And, Profits isn't a bad word, Cat. It motivates all of human endeavor. The paychecks people get are a form of "profit" and I'm sure you realize people do all sorts of things to maximize that for themselves.

I'd like to know what you say to the little old retired couple who own 10,000 shares which represents their life savings. The company is willing to accept smaller profits in order to implement whatever program might make "something" "better" out in the real world, but that would mean Ma and Pa will get $8,000 in dividend income this year as opposed to $16,000, which they are accustomed to. What do you tell them?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

85. Ma and Pa have Social Security and probably a pension in addition to their investments.

Furthermore, they should realize they cannot morally profit now on the backs of future generations. What do you say to the small child now, who will die of war, disease, or malnutrition in the next few decades because of today's short-term profit motivation? "Sorry kid, but Ma and Pa needed to double their dividend income"?

[Citizen Number 9]

117. I don't think you understood the situation too well.

Ma and Pa are not doubling their income, they are facing it being halved in order to implement some corporate "good" somewhere.

It's sort of silly to just imagine that Ma and Pa have all that other income. Many people don't. I guarantee you that loss of $8,000 is a lot more important to them than it is to some larger investor somewhere and they are the ones letting the board know it.

[HughBeaumont]

58. Business is NOT running out of qualified workers here in the US.

We've lost over one million private sector jobs in the last year alone. I'm quite positive business can find all of the qualified workers they need in that group of people, as well as countless others that are no longer counted on unemployment rolls due to the fact that they gave up looking.

What American businesses are hurting for is a glut of qualified workers who will work for them at $40,000-$35,000 a year or less. If anyone thinks that's a great salary, that's actually $10,000 LESS that what the average American SHOULD be making in real dollars if wages kept up with productivity and inflation these past few years.

Offshoring IS all about greed. Searching for the lowest cost labor, whether qualified or not, means more profit, more bonuses for the upper echelon and less value and morale for the company's workers. Destroyed morale equals less productivity, more frustration and less effectiveness for projects due to overwork. In turn, more unemployment and lower wages here means less consumerism, less taxes flowing into the American economy, less power for the workers and continuation of boom/bubble/crash economic cycles so common of low-tax, corporate-favoring scenarios.

What's going to be the ultimate solution for America's labor pool? That we all become PhDs to push paper and make flowcharts for phantom dollars and speculative assets? Do you know how bad student loan debt is killing the finances of American workers long after they've graduated? America is making college less affordable and harder to attain. This also ignores the fact that some people here, whether due to lack of desire or being more skilled in other areas that don't really require degrees, are not meant for college but have to go anyway because that's what our business leaders are forcing all of us to do.

This economy is all junk food and no meat and potatoes. Strong economies are BALANCED economies; one that can accommodate workers of all education levels and ALL skills. Europe seems to have a balance of corporations, manufacturing and infrastructure upkeep, along with an outstanding social safety net, great public transportation everywhere and taxpayer-funded health care for their citizens. I don't see any problems with their sustainability.

What you cannot seem to come to terms with is that this Friedman model you and the wealthy seem to be in like with has failed miserably wherever it's been tried. Sustainability comes from a gainfully employed citizenry under a progressive tax system with a balanced work base propelled by Keynesian economics. Under the Friedman model things DID change . . . for the worst; just as it did in South America in the 70s and in the US since the 80s. Wealthy people got insanely wealthier while real wages have stagnated since 1979 for the lower 95% of us.

And I stand by what I said. Two years old or not, it still applies now more than ever. Your job is NOT your life. Many of us cannot pursue what we really would want to do in life because it wouldn't pay the bills. Since everything absolutely HAS to have some sort of monetary value attached to it, as society dictates, we must forgo our dreams and wants to push paper for rich people so they can buy luxury items. If this is what's ideal to you, that's incredibly sad.

[Citizen Number 9]

60. "the ultimate solution for America's labor pool"

is going to be that they have to compete with every other human being out there. That is the consequence of globalization and improvements in education and opportunity that have been taking place outside the borders of the US.

I don't have a devotion to any school of economic theory. I believe in real-world solutions. I am substantially more perceptive than the average person, and after 50 years of observation, I can see certain things that generally apply to most humans.

What is it you really want to do that wouldn't pay the bills? I'm not sure you have a "right" to expect that, but at the same time, I know lots of people who manage to do it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

84. "I am substantially more perceptive than the average person"

:eyes:

It must be so difficult for you to deign to associate with the likes of us.

[anigbrowl]

106. Yes, it must be. I think he's quite right.

china and India are not going to go back to economic isolation now that they've discovered they be economically self-sustaining. Avoiding this fact is not going to solve the US's problems; autarky isn't a viable solution for this country.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

108. Are we economically self-sustaining anymore?

We used to be, until the "free trade" geniuses exported our jobs and industries. Now we export natural resources and import finished products, while people try to survive in the New Service Economy.

BTW, China imposes hefty tariffs on our goods, while we put practically nothing on theirs. Tell me why that's okay and why the US should allow such a disparity to exist. While you're at it, explain to me why our trading "partners" should get away with manipulating their currency to increase the trade deficit further. Oh, and since this whole "free trade" thing is working out so great, why are Chinese warehouses full of merchandise that isn't selling because Americans aren't buying it. Surely, such a "self-sustaining" nation could easily find other buyers for those goods in this awesome new globalized economy, couldn't they? Or they could just sell them in their own domestic market, what with having so many people flush with cash from those $0.57 an hour sweatshop jobs, right?

[xchrom]

112. china's and india's wealth are built on the wealth of the west --

post colonialism.

what those countries have capitalized on is cheap labour -- when they should have been filling each other's economic holes{i.e. chinas microsoft, indias caterpillar, etc} with trade with each other at wages that were far better for their economies.

they let them selves be sold a bill of goods from foreign companies all over the globe.

now they are committed to it.

the obviously republican poster above doesn't get it -- his job hasn't gone out from under him by sheer luck -- but it could have -- ask the san diegans after mcdonald douglas.

countries have a bound and hounerable duty to look after their workers.

[Citizen Number 9]

118. I am accustomed to associating with people who aren't quite as

rude and abusive, but I can generally overlook it if you can manage to keep on track with the discussion.

[Deja Q]

115. RIGHT ON!!! Your response deserves a DUzy and on the front page.

:yourock:

[Deja Q]

114. And if you can't see the growing imbalance between cost of education and cost of living,

I can see why you're being naive.

[Two Americas]

37. wrong board

I think you are on the wrong board.

Or maybe I am. Hard to tell what direction the Democratic party is going. If it is going your way, you can have it.

[HughBeaumont]

46. You're on the right board.

"Bootstraps" Laissez-FAIL "Dems" are the ones that need to gets ta STEPPIN'. We should all be united in support of workers of all stripes, because we're all in the same boat.

Anymore, that same boat makes too many concessions to lift the yachts in that "rising tide".

[mrreowwr_kittty]

50. "...if your approach is to behave like you are more deserving than anyone else."

Your posts reek of that attitude. Put down the Ayn Rand novels and join the real world.

[Citizen Number 9]

52. I'll invite you once again to actually discuss things

as opposed to making personal attacks.

Do you feel like you are more deserving than anyone else?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

57. The whole fucking thread is discussing things.

Read it. As for what I deserve, it's in the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

You don't insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, and most especially, promote the general welfare by destroying America's manufacturing capability and impoverishing her citizens.

[Citizen Number 9]

61. And see, here is another place we differ

you obviously feel that "someone else" is responsible for these changes, when I will tell you it is the society as a whole that is making these decisions.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. Gee, that's funny.

Most of "us" didn't want to bail out the financial industry with little to no oversight, but "someone else" had other plans. Most of "us" don't want our troops to remain in Iraq, as defense contractors loot our treasury, but "someone else" is making a different decision. The decision you seem to be making is to go along with it and pretend it's good economics and that you will always fare well because of your superior mental prowess and ingenuity.

[Citizen Number 9]

81. Do you mean "The Decider"?

Can't account for him. Didn't even vote for him, but about half the people in the country did. See how it works?

You need to be asking all those middle class folks you work with why they voted for the last administration. Report back here so we can use the information to keep from electing another guy like that again.

[tama]

39. The slavers

like their wage-slaves docile and eager.

Race to the bottom!

[Citizen Number 9]

42. Wake up

And take control of your life.

[tama]

45. NO CONTROL

That's the anarchist wake up call on Streets of Athens. You can keep on dreaming, slave.

[Citizen Number 9]

49. Anarchy just isn't that popular

Can you tell me why?

[tama]

65. au contraire

Anarchism is popular, aristocracy and royalism (including "represetative" oligarchy) are hierarchic.

[Citizen Number 9]

68. The notion of anarchy may be popular

in your estimation, but you will notice that the actual practice of it never lasts too long.

[tama]

71. Wrong

Anarchism (by any name) is the only actual practical way of life lasting hundreds of thousends of year in balance with nature - organic sense of order of so called "primitives", in the sense of belonging. We've been there, done that. Some few still manage do, others are relearning, despite your cancer civilization ethnociding and slaving them - us - all it can.

This is not a matter of civilized intellectual argumentation in the game of being "right". Fuck that. Your whole way of life is just plain wrong. Deal with it, don't bitch. If you really want to deal with it and wake up, I can offer what I've learned in case it could be of use. Until then...

[Citizen Number 9]

73. Sounds lovely, yet at the same time....

quite savage. Won't Darwinian pressures and natural selection begin to take precedence over ...more civilized notions?

In addition, there are bound to be interpersonal conflicts. How will they be handled?

[tama]

75. More theories

"Darwinian pressures and natural selection" - according any and all philosophies of science, no theory is complete but just a half-truth, at best.

Conflicts will be handled as allways, in situ.

So in answer to your question in other post, I know science well enough and better than most. It's not All. It's just somewhere.

[Citizen Number 9]

79. Conflicts handled at the source?

I hope you realize that is a whole lot of "might makes right" and "an eye for an eye".

Traditionally, that hasn't turned out so well for the weaker members of society. Not too well at all.

[tama]

87. Locally, between those involved

Discussions and agreements who washes the dishes, etc. etc. etc.

State is all about might makes right and eye for an eye. States turn out not so well for the weak. They serve best the interests of greedy egomaniacs.

[Citizen Number 9]

90. You've completely lost it.

The weak disappear without a state or a ruler.

[tama]

91. LOL

And who makes the "weak" weak in comparison and then disappear? Not by anyhow self-imposed rulers and states? :D

Without ruler or boss or any other strongman thug, who is "weak"? In a non-hierarchic community, who is weak?

[Citizen Number 9]

95. I'm humoring you and entertaining your notions

Your concept of non-hierarchical humans is a complete fantasy.

Got any original research?

[tama]

96. Yup

Anthropology of pre-civilization ways of life. As for shamans, they are not holy leaders but holy servants.

[anigbrowl]

104. Bwahahaha sure

If you don't believe that coercion and exploitation exist in primitive societies, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[lonestarnot]

32. Why is it that pugs think they "work" hard and always throw that shit in someone's face when

faced with confrontation and that bootstraps shit, betch your into those too? :eyes:

[Citizen Number 9]

53. I think everyone feels they work hard

whether they do or not. It's another of those things that are relative.....Someone else works harder than you.....you work harder than someone else.... etc.

[tama]

38. "I work hard to keep myself in demand"

How is that different from prostitution?

[HughBeaumont]

47. But don't you know?

The reason that we have a bad lot in life and have been dealt a bad hand is because "We simply don't WORK HARD enough!" :sarcasm:

I always resented the implication that all of us are poor simply because we "don't work hard enough".

Many of us spend half to 3/4 of our day doing something work related; whether it's commuting, the job itself, added work from the job or schooling to improve our career prospects.

We're trained to be cubeslaves almost from the time we set foot into elementary school. We're not trained to think creatively (unless it benefits your employer), but merely to regurgitate feasible solutions within an hour's time.

Love of learning doesn't factor in, because the schedule given and the kind you'll have in your future fabric box doesn't allow for it.

Being able to attend college is only going to get more difficult as life goes on, what with no liquidity for student loans and companies cutting tuition reimbursement.

We "Don't work HARD enough"?

Mr. "Citizen" should tell that to the blue collar workers of this country, who worked the hardest, sacrificed family time and sanity to live in those plants that provided for their families and ended up getting screwed the hardest once the laissez-FAIL capitalists took over our government.

And then maybe he should tell that to the college graduates, who were told that's what they needed to do to thrive in this life: get a degree. Oh wait, sorry, your bachelors is now "not good enough". You need a MASTERS degree to push paper now. OH WAIT, everyone and their brother is now going into massive debt to get that master's degree, but even people with master's degrees are now being laid off.

What do you tell them? What do you tell the people who now have to start over at ages 30-55? "Better LUCK next life"???

[Citizen Number 9]

56. I don't think it is that simple, Hugh.

Although I will say that it certainly is a factor.

You have to work "smart", too. So, making good decisions is part of it.

For example, I can't think of any life decision I made because someone said I "had to".

What is your bad lot in life and why do you think you've been dealt a bad hand?

Tell you what. I'd be happy to discuss this with you, either privately or publicly as long as you agree to be fair and honest and not get angry at anything I say, and of course, I'll promise same.

[HughBeaumont]

62. AH. The "work smart" argument. Always love this one.

I say this because one apparently has to be skilled at fortune-telling in the modern work world.

See if this fits into your weltanschauung:

My bank (privately owned, by the way) is currently under a scrutiny-laden audit with the Office of Thrift Supervision over some bad construction lending and other assorted bad assets on their books. They recently laid off 535 people, and thankfully I was not one of them, due to the fact that I work in one of the few areas of the bank that's holding them above water. Among the laid off, however, were some of the hardest workers I've seen; long-time company people, many with college degrees, who mentored others and sacrificed family time to see successful projects through that would help said institution. I have to hope that by December 31st, this bank can impress the auditors enough to avoid being shut down by the FDIC.

Or I can always leave and look for a job that isn't there, because every other institution, banking or not, is in the same exact boat that my company is and are laying more workers off and have hiring freezes. Layoffs only lead to MORE layoffs, BTW. When does this mythical "bottom" happen? When America becomes one big Lorain, OH?

During the first recession 7-8 years ago, the bank I work at was one of the few places that was hiring workers rather than laying them off. Out of 200 people who applied for my position, 97% of them were unemployed individuals. Being contrarian and concentrating on residential market areas and assets that thrived rather than speculative construction lending worked to their benefit, because they were quite successful in the coming years. Last year, they gambled, as many institutions did. And lost.

Now I ask you. As a laid-off-for-five-months worker in 2001, should I have said "No" to a non-publicly-traded banking institution who had successfully existed and built wealth for 110 years (as many banks around them also did) because 7 years and some change later, they would be part of the worst domino effect that the banking industry has seen in 75 years? Was I supposed to, by some magical ability, see into the future that my decision to go with a bank that hired people during a recession would somehow be precarious years down the road?

Should I have been . . . "better prepared"? Should those laid-off workers with higher educations have been . . . "better prepared"?

Remember when IT, project management, financial analysis, accounting, etc. used to be "professions" and not "jobs" meant to be traded and sold like cheap plastic Chinese crap at a store owned by a family that has WAY too much damned money for their own good?

Used to be that a blue-collar worker in the 60s and 70s counted on their rights and their job security. Used to be that a college degree DID matter in the white-collar world.

Then the Harvard/Chi-School "bean-counters" took over our corporations and politics without a shot being fired. The End.

Could you now please concede that often times, it ISN'T the fault of the worker?

[Citizen Number 9]

72. I think you are grossly misunderstanding my position

There is no doubt that bad things happen, including things that aren't your "fault". I've said that before here. But what is equally true is that you are responsible for your own choices and there is no choice that is without risk. None whatsoever. You even allude to that.

You may have convinced yourself that you could count on certain things and whatnot, but there was no one short of an omnipotent being that could actually make that happen, is there?

That's pretty much life.

So while you can be angry or whatever you want, the only choice you have is to keep on trying and making better decisions.

In any case, it's pretty clear that this is not what you want to hear right now. I'd suggest that you put me on 'IGNORE' so you don't have to see any more of my posts.

[tama]

63. The reason that we have a bad lot in life

is that we work too much. In jobs we don't like but are forced into (wage-slave or hunger?), jobs that are harmfull for the wellbeing of our planet and everything decent. Jobs that force us to be away from our loved ones. For the benefit of some greedy fuck with penis envy.

Blue pill or red pill? :)

[Citizen Number 9]

67. I didn't set the rules of the Universe.

You're going to have a hard time supporting the notion that you have a right to expect all those things without the concomitant work to get them.

In history, many forward thinking philosophers and writers have proposed utopian societies. Some have actually made attempts to create them. Unfortunately, none of them have been successful over the long term. The rules seem harsh to some, not so harsh to others, but they are still the rules.

Four letter words and impolite terms may get you attention, but they don't do much to further your theories.

[tama]

70. Myths are stronger than theories

Myths are real, theories just wanking. The myth about golden age degrading into worse and worse (now down to age of black sticky smut called oil - how low can we go?) is of course real and true. And the mythical paradise that we left means originally garden.

The rules for mankind are harsh indeed. Either relearn how to live in paradise, perhaps wiser from the way of the prodigal son, or be no more. Tough love from Mother Nature.

[Citizen Number 9]

74. Tough Love from Mother Nature?

At first glance this would seem to support globalization, wouldn't it?

Theories just wanking? I'm guessing you're not a scientist...are you?

[tama]

76. Localism and variation, not globalization and universalism. n/t

[Citizen Number 9]

78. Localism and variation?

Isn't that what we've had all this time? Some would say that is the source of a lot of our ills. I don't think variation will ever go away because people are so...different.

But, it's pretty clear that the global community is coming together because of transportation and technology.

Maybe Peak Oil will shut that down and things will become more...how did you put it? - "Organic Human Communities"

[tama]

82. No

what we have is, after centuries of European imperialism, the totalitarian system of globalized capitalism. Not localism and variation.

[Citizen Number 9]

54. If you feel that is prostitution

then I can see where we are going to differ.

Do you feel you have a sense of how humans interact and how other people see things, or do you see things only through your eyes and people you feel are just like you?

There is a big world out there with all kinds of people. Do you mind if I ask what your plan is to get along with them?

[tama]

64. "Differ"

is what you do, from the start. You judge yourself - not like a honest whore, but by "differing". All the "best"... :)

[Citizen Number 9]

66. Ah, another personal attack. Things do not bode well.

I've been all over the world and have seen workers in all sorts of conditions. I've been involved in developing functional solutions that represent an improvement over the status quo. In most, if not all instances, these solutions have been very agreeable to the great majority of them.

I haven't seen your rationale for how I am involved in "prostitution".

[tama]

69. Stick and carrot

but it's still a donkey, a beast of burden.

I'll try to clarify. While "best" is the worst enemy of good, our life and existance in the body politic is not good, it's lousy and awfull. What I refere by "differing" is the faux individualism meme and myth you and we are being fed from birth. Divide and conquer. I have no respect for "individuals", I have respect for humans in communities that are organic, not cancer-like growth machines.

Prostitution comes from Latin, meaning "putting (oneself) for public sale". That's what job market means, prostitution. Slavery. Real humans - free people - don't sell themselves or much worse, buy others, they give themselves, to each other, to family, tribe, community. To gods and/or god.

To be a human is not about being something sold and bought. Where is your dignity?

[Citizen Number 9]

77. Sounds like utopian philosophy to me.

But, I don't believe it adequately addresses the true nature of man. All those things you don't like are what man is about and what we see, the thousands of years of civilization, has been an attempt to wrestle with that nature. More recently, the Soviet idealogues felt that given enough time, a "Soviet Man" would emerge that would be quite at home in the planned economy they created. Fortunately, that great experiment has been substantially discredited as of late.

Ha ha. Even 2000 years ago, the word referred to offering oneself up for sexual acts, not for sale. Even though we don't celebrate the festival of Floralia anymore, the modern meaning of prostitute has a negative connotation. I just don't think that is how most people feel about work. Moreover, it is the work product that is for sale, not the individual. We shut down those systems some time ago.

Interestingly enough, there have been a number of posters here, on this board, who have alluded to "having an unwritten agreement" with the employer - some sort of lifelong promise. I don't agree that happens or is even recognized by law. People can be neither bought nor sold, even with their consent.

If you feel a need to commune with others I suspect that the system you feel is lousy and awful probably tolerates it.
Go join with some other like-minded individuals.
However, you can't expect everyone to be that way.
Because they aren't.
No matter how hard you wish it.
And how hard you force them.
Or breed them.

[tama]

83. Civilization

has been mistake from the beginning. Certainly not the true nature of man.

[Citizen Number 9]

88. Sorry,

but more than six thousand years of human history begs to differ with you.

I'd encourage you to go take a stab at your concept of ecocommunes or whatever it is you think is better.

But first, I'd recommend that you educate yourself as to the actual history of Utopian experimentation.

Might save you a lot of ....unhappiness.

[tama]

93. Go condescend elsewhere

I know my shit good and bad, you go do your shit... polishing up your appearances to sell your self to the highest bidder or what was it?

[tama]

103. About my shit

I should add - it's fertilizer, what comes from the Earth goes back to the Earth. Worms eat my shit and shit worm shit - the ideal soil crumbs of a healthy and productive soil.

[anigbrowl]

105. So why are you posting on teh damn internet?

Anaracho-primitivists like yourself a really annoying. You go around saying civilization is bad and suggesting that we should all revert to villages, yet every anarcho-primitivist I've ever met seems to love posting on the internet. Before that you loved Xerox machines. About 0.001% of Anarcho-primitivists actually get a farm or suchlike and practice what they preach, the rest just drink cheap beer and post on the Internet.

[tama]

86. I'm not into forcing anyone, as you said:

"Maybe Peak Oil will shut that down and things will become more...how did you put it? - "Organic Human Communities""

The "tough love" is very simple, learn to live in "ecocommunes" or die.

[Citizen Number 9]

89. Wake up.

"learn to live in "ecocommunes" or die."

Everyone dies, Tama. I didn't have to study Biology to learn that.

[tama]

92. Stuff your individualism

yes all that births alse dies, but communities outlast individuals. What kinds of communities will outlast culture of consumerist individualism, that should be pretty clear.

[Citizen Number 9]

94. Your hive-mind-commune-whatever is very interesting

especially as it applies to the US economy.

Be sure to send me a copy of the thesis when it is finished.


ну так что же?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

97. There's no such thing as an individual. It's a conceit made up to flatter people like Citizen

He likes to think he made it all on his own but he conveniently forgets the support and breaks he had to have gotten from other people along the way.

[Citizen Number 9]

98. Like....what, for example?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

99. Okay. Let's start with your education.

Ever attend a state subsidized school of any kind? Ever get a grant, scholarship, or student loan?

[Citizen Number 9]

100. Sure. So did 40,000 other students at one university alone.

I took $5500 in student loans and received $1,500 in academic scholarship over 5 years and received 3 full degrees. Then there was the work study awarded which I didn't take as the pay rate was less than I could earn on my own.

I also rode my bike to class over the fine roads our society has provided and took advantage of other opportunities too numerous to remember or mention.

If you're trying to take some sort of extreme position regarding opportunity, that won't fly on this. These opportunities are open to everyone.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

102. No they're not.

But the point of my post was that there's no such thing as a "self made" person, no matter how much freepers want to pretend there is. You got wherever it is you are because your community invested in the things that would get you there.

[Citizen Number 9]

107. Once again, you are mistaken

You are the victim of your own close-minded assumptions. I have not claimed to be a "self-made person", whatever that might be in your mind. I have no problem recognizing community investment and am a strong proponent of it (for everyone).

I have little respect for people who have not availed themselves of the opportunities that are available, and then want to complain as if everyone else has had special privileges.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

109. You availed yourself of them probably 30 years ago.

You are probably blissfully unaware of the changes that have been wrought by 3 decades of Reaganomics and Trickle Down malarkey being accepted as received wisdom by politicians and the business world. I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess that you are a white male.

[Citizen Number 9]

110. Did you notice the President-elect is African-American?

My colleagues in science and business were men, women, black, white, asian, hispanic, immigrants, etc., etc.

It's pretty clear to me that the successful ones chose to be something as opposed to choosing excuses, much as you have in your continued assertions.

[Jim Sagle]

111. Take yer corporatist chickenshit bullshit over to Free Republic where they lap it up for dinner.

You're stinking up this site. I can smell it clear across the Web.

[Algorem]

113. they better have a class on how to make themselves bulletproof