Kerry on Dean: We don't need a learning curve in the presidency on foreign

[RegenerationMan]

LA TIMES:

<snip>

Kerry has taken a more subtle approach, an example of which was seen in a recent CNN interview. Asked about Dean, he brushed aside his rival, then proceeded to question Dean's credentials without ever mentioning him by name.

"I think we've learned that we don't need a learning curve in the presidency on foreign policy and security," Kerry said.

<snip>

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/0727_dems_2003.shtml

The Israeli Fence Issue proves Kerry sooooo right! Dean is good guy but a centrist opportunist who touted his stance that the US should have invaded Iraq with the UN (same as Kerry) but not alone (same as Kerry), to try and run left in the Democratic primary. \

The fact that Dean can't figure his way out of a paper bag on this Fence issue means Kerry is right. Dean is not as naive as Bush, but the Fence mistake reveals his lack of understanding on foreign policy.

True Peace will never include a fence, it's human making up with human. The Jordanians did it, the Egyptians did it and the Palestinians and Syrians will do it too. But a land-grabbing fence, even one on the Green Line, will prevent true peace and almost everyone on DU would agree.

Kerry has a real handle on this, while Dean obviously has what I see as a crippling learning curve on this and other key issues.

I predict that Dean supporters will not turn Dean around on this Fence issue because of his ignorance. This will skewer his approval with them and they will shift to other candidates. It's a real punch in the stomach to his base.

Dean is really right-of-center on this (and other issues like gun control) and I think he just said he was anti-war when he wanted to invade Iraq (with the UN) and eat his primary cake too.

Kerry is more progressive AND he's ready for prime-time. I really worry if Dean is nominated not only can he not win, like McGovern, he will blow the race several times during the general election with mistakes and hole-in-the-head decisions like the Fence.

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[Jim Sagle]

1. Only if Dean stumbles. Badly.

And just to clarify, he hasn't.

[dajabr]

2. I just went over to Kerry's site...

To look for a press release calling for the removal of the "Fence." Came up empty - can someone help me out?

Oh yeah - Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Dumbya. What is the connection?

[chaumont58]

3. What horseshit!

Dream on, mother. Kerry has the personality of an open grave. He won't fly.

[AmyStrange]

4. Subtle...

I like it. Of course I hear Kerry is going to fire everyone in the administration and get rid of his whole cabinet and advisors and go it totally alone. That takes guts.

Dean has already thrown out some names of people who he would have as his advisors and I think Clark was one of them. I can't remember the other names off the top of my head,




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[blm]

5. Hahah...he USED to depend on Gary Hart...

but, when Hart outed Dean as someone who had no grasp of foreign policy, I guess we can't expect that Dean would turn to him again.

[MercutioATC]

7. Has that been confirmed by anybody OTHER than Gary Hart?

I've heard you make that statement a few times. Is this just a Hart statement, or are there other references?

[AmyStrange]

11. we don't need no steeenkin' references...

or evidence. That would take all the fun out of being a Deanie B,




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[Duder]

15. Does Kerry ever say anything original?

Gary Hart is helping with the Kerry campaign and on April 18:

'Hart also described himself as a foreign policy expert, saying he has the experience in foreign policy matters to be president; others would have to learn on the job and, according to him, we can't afford that.'

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=69

[DrFunkenstein]

17. I Haven't Had The Time

But I'm going to get around to posting several examples of Dean directly borrowing ideas - and even sometimes language - from Kerry, especially in his foreign language speech. I'll give you an example:

"America is not Rome. We do not dream of empire. We dream of liberty for all." - Howard Dean's Foreign Policy Speech 6/25/03.

"Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence. But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights...With great power, comes grave responsibility." - John Kerry's Foreign Policy Speech 1/23/03.

Ok, for the record, Kerry stole that last line from Spiderman.

[Duder]

20. I'm sure all candidates borrow sometimes...

...but using your example, look how much better Dean says it. :)

[blm]

22. Does the Hart-Rudman report ring a bell?

Hart cares about what this nation will be facing in 2005. He KNOWS that Dean can't grasp the foreign policy issues and he will eventually be on many a program warning the American public of that before the year is out.

People will LISTEN to the Gary Hart of the Hart-Rudman report which would have prevented 9-11.

Dean's "Gary, what di I do?" line will be Dean's calling card.

[blm]

23. Does the Hart-Rudman report ring a bell?

Hart cares about what this nation will be facing in 2005. He KNOWS that Dean can't grasp the foreign policy issues and he will eventually be on many a program warning the American public of that before the year is out.

People will LISTEN to the Gary Hart of the Hart-Rudman report which would have prevented 9-11.

Dean's "Gary, what do I do?" approach to foreign policy will become a laugh line.

[VoteClark]

33. You mean like the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party?

[Duder]

34. Exactly...

Alluding to someone of principle like Paul Wellstone, not because you're like him but because he stood up for what he believed in and wasn't a pre-programmed passionless politician.

[blm]

21. You think Dean will admit it?

ABC's The Note:

Today May 7, 2003: "Governor Dean talked about health care, social equality and President Bush in New Hampshire yesterday." (here) ... in the Boston Globe.
  ALSO ...... "Former U.S. Senator Gary Hart said Tuesday that he will not run for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004 — ending five months of "testing the waters" — because he doesn't have the enthusiasm for fundraising and can't push his message over the hurdles of mass media."
"'It's gotten meaner, nastier, more expensive and less rewarding,' Hart said at a meeting with reporters and editors of The Denver Post. 'You have to have a degree of enthusiasm about the mechanics of it that will sustain you over time. I don't have that right now. I am not a candidate for 2004.'" Mr. Hart was asked to size up the remaining field and offered these observations. "Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont, lacks crucial defense or foreign policy experience."
"Dean, the former Vermont governor, is so inexperienced on defense and foreign relations that before his first trip to Israel in January, he called Hart and said, 'Gary, what do I do?' Hart said."

This was from an interview by the Denver Post that also slammed Lieberman....I haven't been able to pull it up, but, I posted the link here MANY times.

[MercutioATC]

25. I'm no saying there isn't a link, I'm just asking why you believe Hart

I mean, Hart made a statement. That's all. There's absolutely no way to prove its accuracy. Did Dean really say it? Were those the exact words? If so, in what context were they said?

I posted before about Kerry asking me for advice about his bedwetting problem. "Rich, what do I do?" he asked.

Of COURSE it's not true, but I defy you to prove it.

The point is that Hart (from whom Dean MAY have asked advice) doesn't think that Dean has adequate foreign policy experience. He's entitled to an opinion as are we all. Personally, his opinion means no more to me than anybody else's.

[blm]

27. HAHAHA...what about the famous Dean penchant

for RETRACTIONS??? Wouldn't he have demanded a retraction from Hart and the reporter if it wasn't true?

[MercutioATC]

36. Frankly, if that's the best you've got, I'm not worried...

There are a few of you here that feel the need to post this tripe over and over and over. Of course, when you're actually incorrect, you just stop posting to the thread...you're certainly not gracious enough to admit mistakes.

I frankly don't care whether Hart (who is working on Kerry's campaign) has good things to say about Dean or not. If is's an issue for you, great. It's not one for me.

[blm]

37. Not even considering Dean's former dependency on him?

haha...if Hart's experience as a national security expert doesn't sway you one whit, then your mind must be completely shut off to reason where Dean's weaknesses are concerned.

[MercutioATC]

38. Not at all...I'm just not taking what an opposing campaign says

too seriously. I have no idea of the degree of accuracy or the context of the supposed statement. I DO know that Hart is working on the Kerry campaign.

Even if it DID happen, what's the issue with asking the advice of somebody with more experience in a particular area? I know that I've done it from time to time.

It's a non-issue to me. I think it's funny that the vocal anti-Dean people believe it's important.

[blm]

41. Hart wasn't working with Kerry

in early May when he said it. He had just decided not to run himself. So, your premise is incorrect.

He is only recently and informally behind Kerry.

[MercutioATC]

42. I see, so Hart had no inkling of whom he was going to support

2 months ago? Riiiiight.

The second part of the post was the important part anyway. Exactly WHAT is the problem with asking for advice (if it even happened at all)?

[blm]

44. Because he's running for president

and Hart says he doesn't KNOW enough about foreign policy to be in the race.

I think you keep implying this isn't true to effect how others view this point, even though you KNOW it's true, and the Denver post article has been scrubbed. But...the ABC Note excerpted the Post article, so it DID exist.

Hart has stellar credentials on this issue...probably the best in the nation. That's why Dean called him, and that's why Hart is warning voters about Dean. Once Hart starts making this an issue in the media in the fall, no way will Dean be able to overcome it.

[MercutioATC]

45. Again, I'm supposed to adopt Hart's views instead of my own because?

I'm not some blind follower. I've looked into the issues. I'm not in 100% agreement with Dean on every single issue, but he comes much closer than any of the other candidates. Does Dean have extensive foreign policy credentials? No. Neither did Clinton (or Bush II, for that matter) or Kucinich, or Edwards...the list goes on. I believe that Dean has the right ideas and I believe that he'll turn to more experienced people for advice at times (even if some use these requests to make underhanded attacks at a later time).

We've had the discussion on what we expect from our candidates. I don't expect mine to be all-knowing. I do expect him to have the "right" ideas (as I see them) and to be intelligent enough to ask for advice when he needs it.

[blm]

50. Suit yourself...we'll see what the American people

will think when the man who spearheaded the Hart-Rudman report weighs in.

Don't worry. Howard "Gary, what do I do" Dean will still have his fan club.

[MercutioATC]

59. Honestly, there are two things working in Dean's favor...

1) Overwhelmingly, the American people aren't going to care. It's not going to be an issue with them. They've elected PLENTY of Presidents without extensive foreign policy experience.

2) A good portion of the American people know NOTHING about Hart-Rudman. They DO, however, remember Donna Rice. Hell, I know about Hart-Rudman and my brain still comes up with Donna Rice. I personally don't feel that the Rice affair renders Hart-Rudman a moot point, but most people will.

Yes, we WILL see what the American people think.

[blm]

65. Haha...if Dean wants to say Hart's expertise means nothing

because of Rice in 1988, well, I doubt he'll have many Dems congratulating him.

[MercutioATC]

68. Dean won't say that (and he doesn't have to)

The American people will do it all on their own.

I still think the more important issue is that nobody CARES what Hart has to say about Dean. They'll make up their own minds. If they listen at all, they'll realize that it's one man's opinion...one man who is, in fact, campaigning for an opposing candidate.

Hey, you have every right to believe that this will be an issue. I'm of a differing opinion.

[RogueTrooper]

53. Dean only offers a retraction

after he roughs up one of the field's mediocre candidates. This is not the case when somebody badmouths him.

[blm]

60. Throughout his career as governor

he jumped on the press for any error or if he felt he was misinterpreted.

BTW...the Denver Post article has been scrubbed. Who would do that for Dean?

[RogueTrooper]

75. What Denver Post Article?

???

[blm]

82. The interview with Gary Hart

when he decided not to run. He said Dean and Lieberman would be the two he definitely would not trust with foreign policy. Lieberman because his ideas were the same as Bush's, and Dean because Dean has no grasp of foreign policy and even called Hart last January before he went to Israel and asked Hart"Gary, what di I do?" Dean really has no foreign policy and just cribs it from others and relies on his advisors. Bush redux. Dean's chief advisor was the head of AIPAC.

[DrFunkenstein]

6. Dean Hates Dogs

This week, the Gephardt camp seized on a Chicago Tribune story that recounted his visit with a New Hampshire household. Gephardt shook hands with the family pet, which Dean had ignored when he stopped by.

"Howard Dean hates dogs!" read an e-mail alert from the Gephardt team.

Dean strategists quickly responded with not one, but two, photographs of dogs sporting Dean paraphernalia. "Gov. Dean's canine constituency service has already prompted a four-legged groundswell across America," Dean aide Tricia Enright said in an accompanying statement.

---

If Dean hates dogs, there is no way I'm going to ever trust his health care plan. A few photo-ops does not make up for years of anti-caninism.

Dean is a lying CONMAN! He probably hates cats too. I saw him smack a fish once.

[dajabr]

8. But Kasey is soooo cute! Awwwww....

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000822.html

[DrFunkenstein]

9. I Can't Resist!

<>

[DrFunkenstein]

13. They Killed Kasey!

Damn those Dean people! They won't even let a picture of a dog survive!

[dajabr]

14. It's there - I see it.

Here's some more (if you can stand the cuteness!). :-)

http://photos.deanforamerica.com/gallery/14996

[DrFunkenstein]

16. Whew! Kasey's Back!

I don't what happened there! I thought they revoked my picture posting license for felonious cuteness.

I have to admit, I am partial to Boston Terriers. My wife and I have been dying to get one, but it would be mince meat for our two cats. Which reminds me, Vincent and Puck are absolutely gorgeous cats!

Too bad I can't let my Kerry persian near them. My other cat would just run away - as always.

[AmyStrange]

10. I've also heard he squishes...

ants and kills mosquitos. Don't even get me started on germs and viruses (shiver). A murdering scum he is obviously,




Dave (AmyStrange.com)
http://www.SeattleActivist.org/MyLifeStory.html
DU (slang/ folklore) Glossary (Dictionary): http://DUG.SeattleActivist.org/
Index of WMD Articles: http://WMD.SeattleActivist.org/

Here are some excellent resources and timelines of quotes and interviews and newspaper article quotes documenting the different things Bush and Co did and said for the last two plus years concerning the war in Iraq and WMDs (and other fun things) from the Howard Dean Website---even if you're not a Dean Fan, these are still excellent resources:

The Bush Administration And WMDs: Then And Now:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary

Niger-Uranium Timeline:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

Bush and WMD: Assumptions vs. Reality:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Bush_-_Iraq_-_Side_by_Side.pdf?docID=781

The Bush Administration and WMD: What did they know and when did they know it?:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/DocServer/TikTok_-_Administration_-_Iraq_Deception.pdf?docID=762

[blm]

35. OK...I have that ONE thing in common.

.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

12. LOL

Excellent! Still laughing :)

[dfong63]

18. yet somehow bush* "fooled" kerry

kerry, the self-proclaimed foreign policy wizard.

while dean managed to see thru bush's deception.

kerry needs to be careful when talking about the "learning curve".

[dajabr]

19. “The fact is you can't afford to be misled..."

"...if you are running for president of the United States.”

http://www.theday.com/eng/web/newstand/re.aspx?reIDx=253A1159-7AE9-4CAB-BBC8-0D073861CE42

[DrFunkenstein]

24. Typically Misleading Suggestions From Dean

Kerry was clear that Bush may have misled us ON THE FREAKIN' YELLOWCAKE, not on the war. Hence the need for an investigation into intelligence. Dean knows this, but tries the silence them by saying action speak louder than words. Ironic coming from a man with nothing but words.

Rather than run on the strength of his platform, he would rather cut down the other candidates. Not surprising, since his foreign policy is Kerry-lite. Which is not a bad place to take your ideas from, when you think about it. But I wouldn't want to go toe to toe with Kerry on foreign policy either. Better stick to the Iraq vote.

For the record, Dean and many of his supporters have been on the attack against the other Dems for most of the contest. Except for a minor dig before the first debate, Kerry has stayed focused on Bush. But don't be surprised if Dean's divisive tactics bite him in the ass.

[MercutioATC]

26. That's one way to look at it...

...another is that there are still a lot of people that are upset with the Iraq vote and the Patriot vote. There are a lot of people who are sick of inside-the-beltway talk. There are a lot of people who see Dean's statements as taking a clear position and not devisiveness. That's the beauty of opinions...everybody gets to have one.

I believe there's a difference between a position statement and an attack. I'll say that I don't agree with Kerry's Iraq vote and I find his tepid response to Bush's decision to work without the U.N. disturbing. That is a position statement.

I COULD say that Kerry's a weak liar who's just trying to cover up his vote by whining "I was misled". THAT would be an attack.

I'm not counting, but it seems to me that Dean supporters (and Gov. Dean himself) do no more "attacking" than the other campaigns and their supporters.

[blm]

28. Not publically for media consumption.

Dean started it last January and has never let up. His supporters LOVE the meanness, and someone have decided it is presidential.

[MercutioATC]

39. Again, position statements, not attacks...

...and when has he been "mean"? When has he attacked another candidate on a personal level? Is Graham "mean" when he uses the "electable wing of the Democratic party" line? Is it "mean" when candidates say that an "anti-war" candidate like Dean can't win?

What IS "mean" about Dean, exactly?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

43. A hush settles on the crowd.

[blm]

51. He called Kerry "Bushlite" when he was recovering from surgery.

And he did so dishonestly. And the sneer that Dean gets on his face when he attacks the others speaks volumes.

[MercutioATC]

61. O.K....a link with a direct quote would be helpful...

My point is that you yell "He called so-and-so "Bush-lite"" every time Dean uses the "Bush-lite" phrase. I'm asserting that unless he singles out a PERSON, it's not an attack, it's a position statement. Taking issue with other candidates' DECISIONS and showing contrast is what a primary is all about.

So just show me a quote where Dean attacks the PERSON and not the DECISIONS...

[blm]

66. Dean said Kerry gave HIS speech and then called him "Deanlite" too...

and made other claims that Kerry copied him, which was absurd. You know it's true and are just taking advantage of the fact that my links were lost when the computer crashed recently.

[MercutioATC]

72. I'll help you restore your link library...

Dean's quote:

"I appreciate Sen. Kerry saying we don't need Bush Lite, and we don't," Dean told about 1,000 people attending a forum on rural issues in Lake Placid. "But, Sen. Kerry, we don't want Dean Lite, either."

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/ma__democrats2004_2003.shtml

This statement was made in response to a speech in which Kerry stated "Never again can the Democratic Party fail to stand up and turn away from its accomplishments of the last 60 years. ... The one thing this country doesn't need is a second Republican Party."

...which had been a long-standing Dean message. Obviously, Dean doesn't own exclusive rights to the thought, but he had been getting a positive response to it. I'd never heard Kerry use that line before, either, so it at least appeared as if Kerry was using a popular Dean line.

Is this a personal attack? Possibly. If it is, it's a pretty weak one, however. Dean effectively said "He's using my message".

[blm]

73. Kerry was speaking generally about the party,

not candidates.

And is there no irony to 11 year compromising centrist Dean calling 30 years of liberal work Kerry, "Bushlite" or even "Deanlite".....hmmmmm?????

[MercutioATC]

77. And Dean was speaking generally all those times he said "Bush-lite"

Again, slowly...

1) Dean is NOT "calling 30 years of liberal work Kerry, "Bushlite""
He's saying (to everybody) that we can't beat Bush by being a pale shadow of him. This is NOT a personal attack on ANY candidate.

2) Dean IS a centrist! Yes! And compromise is a part of getting things done, so I don't take offense at the "compromising centrist" label. I understand that you're more liberal than I (although your views on whether "terrorists" have civil rights seems to be more conservative than mine). That's O.K. Dean's statements about the "Bush-lite" actions relate specifically to the Patriot Act and the Iraq War resolution (and, in a broader sense, the Dems that voted for the Bush tax cuts). Dean is NOT attacking Kerry's 30-year voting record. In the S.C. forum, Dean specifically stated that he was misquoted in reference to his supposed comments about Kerry's support of gays. He then said that he was very aware of Kerry's exemplary record on gay issues.

Look, I understand your position and I think you understand mine. I still don't see Dean's statements as "meanness".

[blm]

84. Baloney...he was talking about 4 candidates.

Kerry being one of them. And it was Kerry that Dean called Dean lite. Blow smoke in another direction, because there is NO excusing what Dean has done for 7 months now.

[MercutioATC]

87. Did you even READ my post?

I said that I understood your position, I just didn't see the statements as "meanness". Dean takes issue with specific votes that some of the candidates have made (as you said, not just Kerry, no ONE candidate). Again, he takes issue with the VOTES, he's not attacking the candidates as people. I, personally, agree with him. I recognize Kerry's long history of liberal voting, but I believe (MY comment, not Dean's) that Kerry and the others voted not out of any sense of responsibility, but to save their political asses at a time when the American public was being irrational about security.

I don't think that communicating that (or disagreeing with ANY vote that a candidate made) constitutes being "mean".

[DrFunkenstein]

78. The New Republic Descibed It Thusly

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: General Likeability
Grade: F

Once upon a time Howard Dean's needling of fellow candidates was both endearing and, arguably, productive--since it may have spurred them to sharpen their attacks on the administration. But now that his rivals have learned to throw hard punches against Republicans, Dean's attacks are just plain boorish. Consider what happened in Lake Placid, New York, over the weekend. At an event dedicated to rural issues, Dean appeared shortly after archrival John Kerry.

It seems Kerry had given an unusually stirring speech in which he used the line, "The one thing this country doesn't need is a second Republican Party." This prompted Dean to snipe, "I heard he did a great job giving my speech." And when it was Dean's turn to address the gathering, he threw this barb: "I appreciate Senator Kerry saying we don't want Bush lite, and we don't. But Senator Kerry, we don't want Dean lite, either."

Dean, who has appropriated his own favorite line (about representing the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party") from the late Paul Wellstone, is in no position to criticize other candidates for borrowing bits of rhetoric. Besides, this sniping is now hurting the party more than it is helping it, by diverting attention away from the issues and towards the personal fight between Dean and Kerry.

Dean must know better; apparently, even Bill Clinton has asked him to lay off the attacks. But Dean just can't seem to help himself, which doesn't speak well of his leadership skills.

[Larkspur]

31. Dean supporters attack the pro-war voters because we want

accountability from our leaders.

We the People entrust our leaders with power and we expect them to use it wisely. The congresspeople who voted for the war voted for a lethal con game that has set this country on a graveyard spiral towards more disasters and tyranny.

[DrFunkenstein]

48. Opinions Are Like A-holes, Everybody Has One

Sorry, I seemed to have fallen behind in my ridiculous back and forth sessions.

Ok, let me field this one.

"Clear and decisive" - Dean was clear and decisive because he conveniently forgot to mention "disarmament" until, say, February - even though Kerry had been saying it all along. Dean, like Bush, derives a sense of clarity by focusing only on convenient parts of the story. This is why he had to clarify, "Hey, I'm not really anti-WAR, just anti-this-war" - because he forgot to mention that he supported the same conditions as Kerry all along. Oops, so much for clarity.

This is one reason why he keeps coming back to Biden-Lugar. It's convenient (and doesn't exist). Knowing that Kerry also supported Biden-Lugar, but had to actually, you know, vote and stuff, Dean kept talking about it as if it were a choice (and not his fantasy).

Someone here mentioned the Israeli "fence." This is a perfect example of Dean's "clarity." In Dean's speech, it is easy to mistake him for a progressive. Because he leaves all the inconvenient information out. He puts the burden of the peace process entirely on the shoulders of the Palestinians, but makes it sound sweet and dandy.

This to me is weakness. Dean likes to say his centrism is pragmatism, but you can't be pragmatic if you ignore whatever doesn't work in your scheme of things. That's Bush country.

And you are the one relating the "misled" quote to the Iraq vote. In that same article, Kerry says clearly that they are unrelated and he still stands by his vote for disarmament.

Kerry could get alot of mileage out of "regretting" his vote in today's climate, but he stands by the same conclusion he had in 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 - that an unaccountable Saddam was unacceptable. Dean believed that, too, but you'd never know that if you were in an anti-war crowd in December. Strength is admitting all the facts of the story, weakness is carving them into fairy tales.

For the record, I'm from New Jersey. I don't say, "You're being mean." I say, "You're being a prick."

[Larkspur]

29. Kerry's foreign policy consists of being easily duped by con men

If Kerry could be so easily duped by Dubya, I'd hate to think what Vladmir Putin, Ariel Sharon, a psychopath, or that North Korean dictator would do to Kerry.

Dean has a very good "bullsht" indicator, which is what is needed in a world class leader.

[blm]

30. HAHA...Howard "Gary, what do I do?" Dean???

THAT"S funny!

Ariel Sharon would never get the drop on Dean, no sirree. HAHAHAHA.

[RogueTrooper]

52. Stooping to Republican tactics blm?

getting a little desperate are we?

You know, I don't think Dean will be fooled by Sharon. It is not Sharon who is "pulling the strings", but the Religious Right. Now, the last time I checked Dr. Dean was not that close to The Inquisition. Y'know putting his neck on the line for Gay and Lesbian rights managed to

Nice to see you choose to blame the Jews before you stopped to examine the real reason for Team Bush's policy towards Israel. This, by any chance, did not come to mind because Dean's wife and children are Jewish?

What is wrong with asking Gary Hart for advice? The only problem I can see with asking Hart is that he choose to break a confidence and use it as a partisan attack.

[blm]

55. Why do you SAY I blame the Jews when I never did?

Get your facts straight before you accuse people of things they never did.

[RogueTrooper]

56. So what were you implying with your

little Sharon smear?

[blm]

64. What Sharon smear?

I only point out that Gary Hart said Dean doesn't have a grasp of foreign policy. Sharon is wily and can get over on more learned politicians than Dean.

How does that smear Sharon? Although, I can't stand the creepy warmongering Sharon, I have rarely mentioned him here at DU.

[RogueTrooper]

76. This Sharon smear

"Ariel Sharon would never get the drop on Dean, no sirree. HAHAHAHA.!". Included, as you may note, is your trademark snort.

I think Hart did no more that make a partisan attack on behalf of his candidate, BLM. Which is both, a betrayal of somebody's trust and a distinct lack of judgement on Hart's part. Not the first time, either.

[blm]

85. Baloney, that means

that the wily Sharon would outsmart Dean because Dean has no CLUE about the Mideast conflicts. How is that a smear? I detest Sharon the warmonger but it seems Dean sure likes him.

And when Hart made that comment he wasn't working with ANYONE and refused to endorse anyone at that time. He did warn AGAINST two candidates as incapable...Dean and Lieberman.

You keep trying to revise the facts and color it as anything BUT a warning from a VERY capable foreign policy expert.

[Larkspur]

71. Gary Hart is jealous that Dean is going to be able to do what

he could not -- pull off 2 of the greatest upsets in American political history. Dean will win the Dem nomination and then boot Bush back to Texas.

Anyway, since Hart made that statement, Dean has hired foreign and national policy experts and his national policy statements have a very mature and balance sound to them. Also Dean's foreign policy, which consists of empowering women abroad, is also innovative and in line with Democratic human rights values.

[Vis Numar]

32. Sure seems like

Not accusing anyone, but there seems to be some paid Kerry plants that have just recently plopped down on DU ground. Welcome.

[RegenerationMan]

63. Paid?!?!? I wish! This Fence issue reveals the truth about Dean but you

can't accept it or admit that supporting Dean now requires some heavy re-consideration. The real Peace candidate is obviously now Kerry while Dean is cozying up to Sharon and AIPAC. By the way, the Fence construction has now been halted I think--I heard it on the news.

The question is will Dean support it even if Sharon himself halted it for peace. As Bush said (to the left of Dean on this issue) to Sharon: You can't Fence out terrorists, you have to rout them out. Kerry would say you have to make a general peace in the end--and without a Fence!

We're actually all lucky Dean revealed his foreign policy weakness so early. Learning curves in foreign policy this time around--after Bush, 9-11, Afghanistan and Iraq--is simply going to not go over in the usual "Let's-Elect-A-Governor-With-No-Foreign-Policy-Experience". It's going to be very different in '04 from other elections.

If Dean wins the nomination, however, I will back him to the hilt and hope against hope that he can beat Bush and his half a billion dollars in hard and soft money until Dean finally loses in an electoral disaster--which of course would be the end of democracy as we can't even imagine what Bush would do in his secod term.

That's the whole point here people. Kerry is the best chance to ignite the base and win the middle in the general AND WE CAN'T TAKE THE CHANCE THAT DEAN WOULD LOSE. Dean supporters are basically letting their idealistic hearts take a gamble WITH THE WHOLE FUTURE OF THE WORLD AND HUMANITY ITSELF.

THE FENCE PROVES THAT DEAN IS NOT EVEN FOR REAL. IF YOU MUST BE TOTALLY IDEALISTIC AT LEAST SUPPORT KUCINICH. BUT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BEAT BUSH, RECONSIDER KERRY AND READ EVERYTHING ON HIS WEB SITE.

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[RogueTrooper]

81. Kerry is the Peace Candidate?

And here is me thinking that he voted for the war. Am I mistaken in that assumption?

War is Peace, then.
Big John is Watching You

[tjdee]

40. Can we look at what the quote SAYS?

Who's to say it wasn't a slam at Edwards?

I'm reminded now that the media will try to create a rivalry where there is none. Kerry didn't mention Dean by name because the world doesn't revolve around Dean or some made up thing that the reporter injects into Kerry's remarks.

[RegenerationMan]

46. Kerry was asked about Dean and that's what he said

I notice in this whole thread that no Dean supporter addressed the issue of the Fence and how that reveals Dean's worrisome lack of foreign policy knowledge or intuition.

I mean Dean is to the right of Bush himself on this issue!! But because Dean pretended to be anti-war (when his stance was exactly the same as Kerry's), Dean supporters--desparate for a flaming progressive--are willing to ignore something as glaring as The Fence.

Step back and take a look, as Kerry said, we can't afford another President who must go through a learning curve. People will figure Bush has gone through his learning curve but Dean hasn't yet. Winner: Bush.

Although the Doctor obviously has way more IQ points than Bush and would be a quick study. Again the Fence reveals much about Dr. Dean and his right-wing pretty crazy support on this.

By the way, I don't even know Kerry's view on the Fence but I trust him to not fall for it. He's had his learning curve.

Does anyone know? Could not find it on the Web.

IMAGINE PRESIDENT KERRY!!

[genius]

47. We also don't need a Pres on a learning curve about civil rights

and the environment. My fear is that Dean will never get through kindergarden on these issues.

[Julien Sorel]

49. Dean would be owned by the Israeli lobby on foreign

policy, just like Clinton was. In and of itself, that doesn't disqualify him from the presidency, but Dean supporters are fooling themselves if they think this guy is going to go out there, hire the right advisers, and do well in foreign policy. It doesn't happen; the issues are too Byzantine (heh), the interests too entrenched for an outsider to some in and master them in a reasonable amount of time.

[w4rma]

54. Dean:If I can figure out the case the president was making wasn't accurate

...
In any event, it's clear from listening to Mr. Dean that he's enjoying the squirming of the pro-war Democratic candidates, and the opportunity their stance gives him to counter the charge that a former governor of a tiny state such as Vermont doesn't know enough about foreign policy to be president.

"If I can figure out the case the president was making wasn't accurate, and wasn't a good one, and these guys, these campaigns, are all spinning that I don't have foreign policy experience," he says, "then how come my team could figure it out and the other teams couldn't?"
...
http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/oped/bal-op.witcover25jul25,0,3170193.column?coll=bal-home-columnists

Dean, just before the Iraq resolution vote:

...
Dean, whose advocacy of liberal domestic policies has struck a chord among grass-roots activists here, offered the sharpest dissent. He contended that Bush has yet to make a compelling case to justify going to war.

"The greatest fear I have about Iraq is not just that we will engage in unwise conduct and send our children to die without having an adequate explanation from the president of the United States," he said. "The greater fear I have is the president has never said what the truth is, which is if we go into Iraq we will be there for 10 years to build that democracy and the president must tell us that before we go."
...
http://www.dre-mfa.gov.ir/eng/iraq/iraqanalysis_27.html

[DrFunkenstein]

57. Dean Overselling Again With Winks And Nods

"If I can figure out the case the president was making wasn't accurate, and wasn't a good one, and these guys, these campaigns, are all spinning that I don't have foreign policy experience," he says, "then how come my team could figure it out and the other teams couldn't?"

"Those of us who, over the past six months, have expressed deep concerns about this President's management of the crisis, mistreatment of our allies and misconstruction of international law, have never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."

I'm sure what he "really meant" was that the case wasn't imminent. Not that he knew there was no WMDs. Wink wink, nudge nudge. Just like he "really meant" that Kerry was referring to the Niger purchase, not to being "misled" about the need for disarmament.

"I think the four guys who supported the war have got some explaining to do, because they basically swallowed all the evidence that the president was dishing them up, the major proportion of which turned out to be exaggerated or simply not true."

Oops, I guess that wasn't what he really meant. I guess he really did mean that Kerry swallowed all the evidence that the president was dishing up. You would think that being on the Foreign Relations committee for 18 years, writing a book on international terrorism, and consistently calling for Saddam's disarmament since 1997 would have protected Kerry from being fooled.

http://www.gop.com/Newsroom/RNCResearch/research061903.htm

Dean - you're too smart by a half. Good thing your team figured it out. When you're President, you can fire the CIA and put them in charge.

<>

Reviews: "Kerry pulls together information he gathered as chairman and ranking Democrat on the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations (1987-97)...Kerry describes this network's key players, spotlighting the drug trade, terrorism, "human contraband," and money laundering, and suggesting globalized law enforcement that would seize global criminals' assets and share them (and criminal intelligence) with nations willing to cooperate."

"His recommendations are specific: Shut down offshore banks that launder and shelter criminal profits; regulate electronic money transfers; expand the scope of extraterritorial jurisdiction for major crimes committed against a country's citizens overseas; use the CIA and other intelligence services to penetrate global crime organizations; share the seized assets of international criminals with governments that cooperate in fighting global crime."

[Duder]

58. GOP.com

RNC research? Kerry supporters are getting desperate. Kerry was passed over for VP because he had voted against the first Iraq war. This time he went on record for the war with Iraq with his vote. Politics over principles, imo.

[DrFunkenstein]

62. Dean Uses Same Argument As Republicans

This is RNC research AGAINST Kerry. Ironically - or not - they are using the same argument as Howard Dean. They are conveniently forgetting to mention that Kerry is talking about the possibility of mendacious evidence in a very specific case (the Niger yellowcake), hence the need for an investigation. Kerry is not saying it was definitely lies, and he certainly isn't saying he "was" fooled into voting for disarmament.

Let this sink in - Dean is using the same bullsh-t that scumbag Republicans are. He should be more careful about the company he keeps.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/stories/news/state2003/061903_kerry_2003.shtml

Kerry: Bush 'misled' Americans

Kerry said Bush made his case for war based on at least two pieces of U.S. intelligence that now appear to be wrong - that Iraq sought nuclear material from Africa and that Saddam's regime had aerial weapons capable of attacking the United States with biological material.

Still, Kerry said it is too early to conclude whether or not war with Iraq was justified. There needs to be a congressional investigation into U.S. intelligence on Iraq, he said.

"I will not let him off the hook throughout this campaign with respect to America's credibility and credibility to me because if he lied he lied to me personally," he said.

As for the question about U.S. intelligence, Kerry said he has led the call for a congressional investigation and pledged, "We will get to the bottom of this."

"I believe I can hold President Bush accountable if they have misled us," he said.

Addressing senior citizens in Hanover later in the evening, Kerry said he supported a congressional investigation because it was not clear whether Bush acted on poor, distorted or politicized intelligence.

"I don't have the answer. I want the answer and the American people deserve the answer. I will get to the bottom of this," he said.

[w4rma]

67. Then, Kerry has been using "Republican" arguments against Dean

by implying and saying that Dean is less or not electable because he was anti-Iraq war.

[blm]

74. Kerry never said that...

you are making that accusation up out of whole cloth.

[MercutioATC]

80. No he didn't, but his spokesperson DID say this:

Kerry's spokesman Chris Lehane:

"Howard Dean's stated belief that the United States won't always have the strongest military raises serious questions about his capacity to serve as commander in chief," Lehane said. "No serious candidate for the presidency has ever before suggested that he would compromise or tolerate an erosion of America's military supremacy."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85368,00.html

Sorry for the Fox News link....

[blm]

86. Then why was it Dean who backed off that remark?

In fact, his meanness took the opportunity to dump on Kucinich to prove his "tuffguy on defense" image.

Hahah. Dean was born with a silver foot in his mouth.

[MercutioATC]

88. Did Kucinich REALLY mean that he's issue an executive order

any time the Supreme Court made a decision that he felt was wrong? He made a statement that was supposed to convey something specific and he botched it. Everybody does that from time to time. Dean quickly explained what he meant by his statement (and the clarification makes sense to me).

[killbotfactory]

70. Dean knew Iraq didn't have nukes...

and knew there was no evidence that Iraq was working with Al-Qaeda. The CIA basicaly said as much, despite the bluffing from the Bush administration.

He thought they probably had chem/bio weapons laying around, but that they didn't pose an imminent threat to the US.

[killbotfactory]

69. I agree, which is why I support Dean.

Kerry could learn a thing or two from Dean about when to support and when to oppose wars, for example.

[whirlygigspin]

79. Life is like a box of chocolates

Please donate $10 to Dean for each day this moronic thread stays up.

[DagmarK]

83. Hell John, how long can it take Dean to read the CONSTITUTION?

It's a pretty short document......

the current resident has made quite a name for himself, and he obviously hasn't read it. I bet Dean has read it already.

Has John read it? Esp that little part that identifies what you need to be president?