Stunning OpEd piece on Kucinich and Dean

[diamondsoul]

Two waves of change

http://www.opednews.com/dinan0104_kucinich.htm

At first I thought this was a piece giving kudos to "losers", and then I started reading. He's nailed it.

<snip>

"The magic of Howard Dean is that his feisty demeanor and anti-Bush rhetoric has stirred progressive America from its slumbers. Through righteous anger in the service of ending the abuse of power, he has provided a rallying point. Through his goading, he resurrects our confidence that we can defeat Bush next year. Through his attacks, he inspires the grass roots to organize. He is allowing us to shed the first layer of our cocoons.

The thing to notice, though, is that Dean has a much more cloudy vision of the society and world we want to create. His energy is that of rebellion, not progress. His voice is that of combat, not peace. His vision is that of railing against the status quo, not creating a truly just world. His stance is one of antagonism, not the stance that goes beyond the fight and stands in a fundamentally wiser place.

Dennis Kucinich spent some of his early career in a more oppositional stand, just as Dean does now. He fought the good fight with the "enemies." However, he now stands beyond that, in a place of commitment to truth. He will certainly go into battle for a good cause, but he does so without rancor or demonizing the perceived enemy. He has worked through the dramas that are necessary to become a man of wisdom and integrity. He has been through his fiery trials to become a light unto the world."

[Maddy McCall]

1. Yes...he rails against the status quo...yet he IS the status quo

All talk. Little action.

[Hep]

3. LOL

Another example of someone from outside the campaign pretending to know more than people INSIDE the campaign. I love it!

[AP]

5. If people inside the campaign know Dean's planned actions,

why are they keeping it a secret from people outside the campaign (ie, voters)?

[Hep]

10. Neither Dean nor his supporters can remove blinders from people who

refuse to take them off. Pretty simple, really.

I've been trying to tell people wwhat's going on for months. I get dismissed outright. And it's because people OPPOSE Dean.

When Dean talks about taking the party back, he's not just talking about voting for him. He's talking about making the D party strong again by becoming active in it. And he's teaching people across the country how to do that.

When you speak of planned actions what do you mean? What he will do in office?

Dean's causing problems for the establishment. And the response from the establishment brings up some great Bertrand Russell quotes:

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd."

This explains DU perfectly. As does this:

"Conventional people are roused to fury by departure from convention, largely because they regard such departure as a criticism of themselves. "

And:

"The observer, when he seems to himself to be observing a stone, is really, if physics is to be believed, observing the effects of the stone upon himself. "

And finally, the best:

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."

Meaning you will believe what you want to believ, and you will more readily accept bad information that upholds your belief than you will good information that contradicts it. So if you'd like to know something specific, ask a clear question.

[AP]

13. I remember a day at DU when the herd was all saying one thing,

and I was the lonely voice trying to say another.

[Mairead]

20. Why don't you go to Dean's site and find all the really innovative

policies he's articulated, summarise them in a sentence or two each, and give us the list of URLs so we can check for ourselves. Tell us, in those 1 or 2 sentences, (a) what's really innovative about the policy and (b) in what way it benefits working people.

When you've done that, then you'll have offered us something besides empty partisan claims.

(edit) Oh, and I know you won't do what I've asked for, Hep, because I have gone to his site and tried to find those innovative, pro-working-people policies and There Ain't Nothing There.

[bread_and_roses]

27. Are you actually saying

that those of us who do not support Dean are following a herd instinct and are unable to see his qualities because we are too conventional? If so, how could you possibly presume to make such a judgement? Even a cursory reading of the Dean threads shows opponents with differing perspectives, different favorite candidates, different emphasis.

BTW, I too have been to the Dean site. And in my considered and deliberate and independent opinion (if I am part of a herd it must be a very metaphysical one, since it does not evidence itself here or elsewhere in any materiel form) he falls short of DK and even Kerry at the least in vision and credentials. I havn't paid much attention to the others, but just from reading this board I would say each one has at least one area where his record surpasses Dean from a Progressive's viewpoint.

Dean's genius seems to be to be fiery in rhetoric and bland right of center in policy and to somehow make that an appetizing brew...for many, evidently.

But not for me.

[LWolf]

29. LOL

You are following herd instinct unless you are part of my herd. Then it's not herd instinct, it's that you're teaching people how to become part of the right herd.

While I love and respect my horses and my dog, I'm the lone wolf--I don't thrive in a pack.

I don't think this article is about herds. The two "waves" are not waves of lemmings following two different leaders. The "waves" are waves of consciousness.

The first wave is an awakening; a fighting back against the flood of surreality that our nation has become. It anger-driven combat mode.

The second wave sees the bigger picture; the reality that, in fighting like them, we become them. And making a different choice about how to win back the nation. Those in the second wave have already been through the first; either earlier in this crisis, or earlier in their lives. They've been there and done that, learned, have grown, and are working on the next level.

It's true that the first wave is currently bigger; there are more people in that place. It's also true that the second wave is the one that will bring the change, healing, and evolution of our nation. As the energy in the first wave is spent, and people flow to the second.

It's a great metaphor for comparing the two campaigns.

Whether it happens now, or later, it will happen.

[Hep]

2. Rebellion not progress?

This is why I don't read op-eds. The people who write them are idiots.

[AP]

4. How can you honestly deny this?

Where's the guy's tax plan? It's was coming out in a couple weeks last September. It'll be out in a couple weeks from today. He doesn't have concrete plans.

But he has a ton of anger directed at Bush.

This op-ed is right-on.

[Hep]

11. Nonsense

What does your point have to do with the "rebellion, not progress" quote? Do you bring up non sequiturs because you don't have a defense of this?

Dean's all about progress, and no one who has seen his stance on the issues will deny him that. All of the candidates represent progress.

They're not mutually exclusive, you know.

[AP]

15. In my OPINION

dean defines himself by what he's against and not what he's for.

He criticizes Bush alot, but he doesn't give anyone his tax plan.

He's more about what he's against than what he's for.

That's the point of the op-ed, and it's a point I've been trying to make since I first paid attention to Dean.

[diamondsoul]

28. Hep, you're twisting the point.

Howard Dean IS the personification of the rebellion, but he doesn't follow it with very much in the way of change. I'm not saying he's a bad guy or doesn't have the best of intentions with his policies but, let's face it, they aren't exactly radical change for the better.

The point of the OpEd is that Dean IS the rebellion part of the equation and Dennis Kucinich is the real and profound progress part of the equation. Dean gets people fired up by being pissed off at Bush and what he's done. THIS IS A GOOD THING!

The problem is how far is he coing to use that anger to create a serious change in the way things are going. The opinion of the author and many others is not very far, and that's where Kucinich comes in. We're all pissed and we need to be, but we can't just thrive on that forever, we've got to change things so there's something to come AFTER the rebellion and anger.

[dweller]

8. ROFLMAO and your op is noted

you should write, you appear qualified.

dp

[Hep]

12. Huh?

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."

Enough said.

[dweller]

17. Hah! if it works for you.

I believe in myself.

eom

dp

[Cocoa]

18. maybe you just don't understand

I understood it.

Instead of calling the writer an idiot, maybe try thinking about it. Just an idea.

[redqueen]

6. compares Kucinich to Mandela, Lula, Lincoln

I like this too. :)

"He is a new kind of political leader for today's America, more like Mandela in South Africa or Lula in Brazil, or stretching backwards in time, like Abraham Lincoln. These leaders surface at moments of crisis when it is imperative that a country evolves beyond the problems of the moment into the next stage of maturity.

I am thankful these leaders do arise and - against every possible obstacle - triumph. However, it often takes some time for them to be heard. The heart is vulnerable. When leaders speak from their heart, they are not always heard at first because we, as listeners, need to open our hearts as well. The more clear their message and the deeper the truth they offer, the longer it typically takes for a society to be ready. First, the anger and rage and fear must come to their own conclusion. Our defenses, walls, and barriers must come down. Then, the sweeter music can be heard and the notes can sound that call us into a life of beauty, purpose, and destiny."

[cindyw]

7. Good piece. he nailed the difference in these men.

I have a great deal of respect for Kucinich because he is honest. I can get along with and support just about anyone, even if I disagree with them.

[candy331]

14. He speaks as if rebellion is a bad thing

which surely it is not in all cases. I think before one can move forward they must embrace rebellion first. They have to be repelled enough to say enough is enough before they will move for change. MLK saw this, he knew that it was time to rebel against a system that saw and treated Blacks as second class citizens. Did he have it all worked out and knew exactly each step and the outcome, of course not but he did know the first step was rebellion. Same as many other instances such as the Vietnam war which was brought down by rebellion of the masses in the sixties, and the same now people must grasp rebellion first, the "I am not going to stand for it anymore" and then they will gear up for the rest.

[blm]

22. No. Dean's real record is a BAD thing.

What issues is Dean to the LEFT of Lieberman?

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html
……He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.

……Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Dean, in 1999, wanted to refuse a $150,000 federal grant to the public defender's office for aiding mentally disabled defendants. "That was unusual, to say the least," says Appel. The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition. Dean spokesman Carson responded that Dean didn't want to create a program that the state couldn't afford to fund if federal money disappeared in the future. But he did not disavow Dean's anti-defendant bent. "This is a governor who was tough on crime and is a big believer in victims' rights," Carson says.

(Note:The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition and forced him to take it.)

Source: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
Dean: “I got life without parole through our legislature. The problems with life without parole is that it’s not life without parole. There are always people who get out.”

http://richmond.indymedia.org/newswire/display/4371/index.php
.. “I’m looking to make it easier to convict guilty people and not have as many technicalities interfere with justice, and I’ll appoint someone to fit that bill”.

Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.” Such comments may play well with the general public, but they have sent a chill through the collective spine of lawyers – particularly defense lawyers – around the state.

http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
He attempted an explanation of his support for capital punishment, even while agreeing that in some cases "the wrong guy" might be executed…. ...he thought the death penalty was preferable in some instances to a sentence of life without parole, Dean noted that in some instances criminals who are locked up for life might be freed on a legal "technicality" only to commit more horrible crimes. "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1907-2003Jul2?language=printer

William Cohen: …..In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.

http://www.vpr.net/vt_news/stories/sharedlegacy/shared3.shtml
Vermont Public Radio, Bob Kinzel: "It's likely that Howard Dean's tenure in office will also have a long term effect on the state's criminal justice system. In his first years as Governor, Dean was often critical of judges who Dean thought did not hand down tough enough sentences. Over the last 10 years, Dean has appointed more judges than any previous governor and Dean describes his appointees as "law and order" judges. Dean's judicial philosophy appears to be having a significant impact - during his tenure as governor the average sentence handed down in Vermont has doubled - a situation that has led to an overcrowding of the state's prison system."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Bister-Estrin-Jacobs_Dean.htm
His governorship was a campaign against reasonable approaches to substance abuse. ….. the only other option in his bag of tricks is tougher penalties. He has endorsed fully the National Governors Association's policy, which calls for increased involvement of law enforcement and disavows any form of legalization not only as a policy but also as a philosophy. In short, Dean not only believes in the war on drug users, but also would like to see it intensified.

…..While Dean vocalized his opposition to methadone treatment clinics and decried any efforts to reduce the penalties on marijuana use -- even labeling the latter as a gateway drug (a statistically questionable claim at best) -- the population of Vermont's prisons increased to potentially dangerous levels. There is a correlation between these two phenomena. The more police go after individuals who use drugs, and the more judges are instructed to put them in jail, the more prisoners there are. ……. according to the DEA, the number of drug arrests in Vermont increased under Dean's watch, peaking in the year 2001, with the imprisonment of women increasing by over 140%.

http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Robert Appel, former head of the state's public defender system, said he had constant clashes with Dean over funding for the service. According to Appel, Dean said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway." He later claimed that he was kidding.

http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/946.html
(He appointed) state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to 'quickly convict guilty criminals.' He wanted individuals that would deem 'common sense more important than legal technicalities.' Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials. 
 



  

[polpilot]

30. Dean represents a change of course no less radical than the American

Revolution. Think of which of the candidates would have 'negotiated' with King George and which one would have been ANGRY and said 'No More!!! I am sickened by the reach-across-the-aisle democrats. When Kerry says 'Bush is a good man trying to do good things' I wondered why Kerry's not stumping for Chimpy.

Dean '04...

[LWolf]

31. That's true.

In this case, Dean is the anger that propels.

Dennis is the movement for change.

What was MLK about? Today is a great day to remember. Here are some great quotes; Dennis is on the same page, IMO:

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching
spiritual death.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967.



The limitation of riots, moral questions aside, is that they cannot win and their participants know it. Hence, rioting is not
revolutionary but reactionary because it invites defeat. It involves an emotional catharsis, but it must be followed by a sense of
futility.

Martin Luther King, Jr., The Trumpet of Conscience, 1967.



Nonviolence is the answer to the crucial political and moral questions of our time: the need for man to overcome oppression and
violence without resorting to oppression and violence. Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge,
aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Nobel Prize acceptance speech, Stockholm, Sweden, December 11, 1964.



Man was born into barbarism when killing his fellow man was a normal condition of existence. He became endowed with a
conscience. And he has now reached the day when violence toward another human being must become as abhorrent as eating
another's flesh.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Why We Can't Wait, 1963.



The curse of poverty has no justification in our age. It is socially as cruel and blind as the practice of cannibalism at the dawn of
civilization, when men ate each other because they had not yet learned to take food from the soil or to consume the abundant
animal life around them. The time has come for us to civilize ourselves by the total, direct and immediate abolition of poverty.

Martin Luther King, Jr., Where Do We Go from Here: Chaos or Community?, 1967.

[polpilot]

32. Kucinich deserves forever praise for trying to stop the Iraqi bombings.

If Kucinich had been able to convince the war voters then many, many moms, dads, sisters, sons, and daughters would be alive. The cavalier and pious call to kill and maim belong to the other demo reps. Their sanctimonious platitudes remind me of Bush the Elder as he attempted, unsuccessfully, to get his minister to come over and take part in the pre-killing prayers. He refused and Rev. Billy ran over to bless the bombs.

Dean '04...

[LWolf]

33. Well, he's got my support.

For that, and for so much more. He owns our domestic issues, IMO.

[spychoactive]

9. thanks diamondsoul!

i have been away, and this is the first thread i popped into, thank you!

great article, the ripple is becoming a wave, as the other dems tear each other to shreds we patiently yet forcefully grow...

VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE

join the 'kucinich kids'

it feels right

one love
spike

(besides who else among the dems would fair as well in a one-on-one debate with the shrub?)

[no name no slogan]

16. This was a good piece

I think it bodes well for both DK and Dean. It makes a pretty clear distinction between them, and is a pretty good roadmap on how this country could really change for the better.

Anger can only take you so far. After that, you need something real to sustain yourself. Great article.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I think Dean is a role model for all the people who never rebelled

before. Kucinich is for those of us who've been there, done that -- or who know it's already been done and this is a new time.

Dean Supporter: "Ooh, you go, Dean! Shout some more at Daddy!"

Kucinich Supporter: "So what would Dean do for America?"

Dean Supporter: "Well, he'll tell people what to do! He'll tell people not to s start illegal wars and, well. . . stuff. "

Kucinich Supporter: "OK, what will he do to get us out of Iraq?

Dean Supporter: "He was the ONLY ONE who was opposed to the war!"

Kucinich Supporter: "Not quite, but what about now? What will he do if
he wins? What is his plan to get us out of Iraq? How
does he plan to get the economy back on track? How
will he stop corporations from outsourcing jobs? Is
he still pro-NAFTA? What about the WTO? Will
he fight to get real universal health care, the kind that
is available to every single person in America? What
about the Pentagon budget? What is his position on

Dean Supporter: (interrupting) EXCUSE ME, but I have to go to a Meet Up
with all the other cool Dean people now! See ya!

[ByRillYAN]

21. i had a conversation JUST like that the other day!

the only diff. is that the Dean supporter had nowhere to go(it was in the middle of Physics, which i should be studying) so I ended up converting him to a kucitizen. Of coarse, i had the help of printed copies of his policies, the former dean supporter didn't even know Deans policies :)

[blm]

24. BRILLIANT!!!!

Absolutely BRILLIANT analysis.

Most of those people have no idea that Kerry and Kucinich have been fighting entrenched power for over 30 years.

[HPLeft]

23. Dennis is Ahead of His Time

He's a good man, and he's run an honest and noble campaign. I think he truly does stand for the world he wants to create. I have no clue what Howard Dean really stands for, especially considering the huge dichotomy between his years as Vermont's Governor, and his current stance as progressive hero. When I see that kind of split, my smell detector goes off.

Dennis is ahead of his time. At the end of the day, we're going to have to find some new solutions to the problems that plague this planet, and I think that Dennis is pointing at some of those.

[LWolf]

25. Stunning is right.

This piece takes the pulse of America apart with laser precision, brings the core to light, and then gently puts it back together.

America is evolving. It's a process, and each person evolves differently.

It's been obvious all along that the candidates attract supporters who are closest to their own place in the process. Even reading through the 24 posts to this thread highlighted it.

And the point is...it's happening. We are constantly evolving. And we should support each other on that journey, whether we're in the same place on the path or not.

:grouphug:

[diamondsoul]

26. Kicking

Because I just think this article is right on target.