Is 'balls to the wall' sexist language?

[pokerfan]

I got called out for saying it over the holidays (while skiing). :(

[Iggo]

1. Nope.

[jobycom]

2. I think so, I wouldn't use it.

But life would be boring if everyone were like me. Actually, life would be fun and full of humor if everyone was like me, and we'd have more peace, no crime, better literature and music, and a lot fewer hate posts on DU.

But it would still be boring. :)

[pokerfan]

4. But all it means is 'full throttle"

That balls is also a euphemism for testicles makes it sexist?

[jobycom]

6. Yeah.

It implies that it is a specifically male trait to go "full throttle." I'm not saying it's the worst phrase ever or anything, but when we constantly characterize courage and full-throttleness and virtue in male terms and weakness, cowardice, and fear in female terms, it affects our concepts of gender, and yes, that ultimately serves to keep gender stereotypes in place. Ask Noam Chomsky, a linguist, of the power of language to mold our perceptions.

[av8rdave]

21. Actually, it is not sexist at all.

In the older days of aviation, where the throttle quadrant consisted of throttle, mixture and prop levers, the tops of the levers were given different shapes for simplicity. "Balls to the wall" referred to moving the ball topped levers all the way forward, towards the firewall. (In fact, "firewall" is also a term for full throttle).

Nothing more, nothing less.

The term is no more sexist than is "cockpit." (Which also has no sex - related origins).

Edited for crappy grammar.

[tigereye]

28. nice etymological history - good to know!

[jobycom]

29. Just because you missed the double entendre doesn't mean most pilots did. nt

[Orsino]

38. Hell, yeah.

DU is not a place where I could expect to insist that a given word can have only one possible meaning.

[av8rdave]

43. I didn't miss anything about it. Re-read the origin.

If someone wants to read something into it that wasn't part of the original expression, so be it.

It is what it is.

[watrwefitinfor]

30. So, for the second time since 2004 I wander into the Lounge,

and right away I learn something.

Who knew?

Wat :hi:

[WinkyDink]

35. If you believe that one,......

BTW: What gender, again, are fighter-pikots?
Yeah, I thought so.

[jobycom]

39. You are just an anti-pikotite.

Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

[av8rdave]

44. Um, fighter pilots are both genders these days

Sorry if you want to be offended. The origin is what it is.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krispos42]

54. I thought it came from centrifugal governors?

By adjusting the top of the governor, you could set it up so that the weights (balls) would have to be nearly horizonatl before the engine was throttled. That is, an engine set to go really fast would have the weights extended far out... and near the surrounding walls of the building.

[cherokeeprogressive]

79. I think that's "Balls Out". n/t

[trof]

80. Bingo! I remember 'throttle, prop, and mixture'.

Well done.

[DutchLiberal]

52. Oh, for the love of God...! Cut that fucking politically correct crap!

I have to barf when I read your response. I mean, is this psychobabble for real?: I'm not saying it's the worst phrase ever or anything, but when we constantly characterize courage and full-throttleness and virtue in male terms and weakness, cowardice, and fear in female terms, it affects our concepts of gender

"Blah blah blah" is all I read. Some people *really* need to get over themselves. It's one thing to not use misogynist or sexist terms; it's a whole other thing to actively seek out and search for 'potentially sexist' terms --if you only twist an expression around enough and if you add enough intelligent-looking (but empty) second-rate 'analysis' to justify your getting upset over something that's not in the slightest worth getting upset over.

People need to stop looking for reasons to label something sexist. All this over-analyzing is getting seriously tiring and if we continue at the pace DU's PC-police is acting, soon we can't say *anything* anymore.

[MiddleFingerMom]

3. Not necessarily...

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[Kali]

5. if balls = testicles

most likely somebody finds it sexist

doesn't offend me, nor does using balls as a term for guts or courage (in respect to ANYBODY) but I do understand that does bother some people

[pokerfan]

8. But it doesn't in this case

http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/balls_to_the_wall

[Kali]

13. then whoever called you on it owes an apology if you ask me!

interesting, never used the term, but have heard it before - just assumed it was something testicle-oriented

[NewJeffCT]

15. I had thought it was testicle oriented as well...

I stand corrected.

[Orsino]

37. But that's exactly why this phrase IS a bit sexist in current use.

Mildly so, I would guess, but I don't get to be the final arbiter.

That there's an ancient engineering origin surprises me, too, as I believe it would most people who have used the phrase. In today's banter, I think that it subtly implies maleness to most ears. Someone might fairly retort, "What? A woman can't drive fast, too?" If someone were to take offense, insisting that s/he is simply wrong would be a rather arrogant, simplistic response. "But I didn't mean anything by it" is an excuse that often fails.

Discovering a genesis of the phrase in aviation mechanics doesn't suddenly make decades of a subsequent usage vanish. Context is all, and yes, these particular words have taken on a slight masculinist tone that ought to be acknowledged.

[av8rdave]

46. So, if a batter in a baseball game has a count of 2 balls on him, is that sexist?

Surely you know the origin. So do decades of misuse of a word make it sexist now, after all these years?

[Orsino]

47. I refer you back to "context is all."

Who says it and to whom are only a couple of possible factors here. No matter how tempting it is to decide that a given word must mean this and nothing else because that's what I meant, we should avoid arguments that parse to "Well, why can't I say it whenever I want?"

We don't get to decide what might be offensive to someone else, or when, or why. What a phrase meant when it was coined decades ago is probably less important than the various other meanings it might have now.

[av8rdave]

51. I disagree

If the phrase was coined a certain way decades ago, we can't go back and change the original meaning or intent just because we don't like the sound of it now.

I consider myself as racially/sexually/ethnically sensitive as anyone alive, but you can't retroactively change the intent or meaning of something that was coined long ago for a specific reason.

[OhioBlue]

55. we do it all the time.

We may not change the original intent, but when words or phrases morph into something else, we change the way we speak in polite society.

We evolve as a society and change our language as we change and evolve. If a word or term becomes viewed as derogatory, we change our language. We do it all the time. The words "Negro" or "Retarded" were not viewed the same way 50-100 years ago as they are today.

"Political Correctness" gets a bad rap - I think for the most part it is from people that are reluctant to change. We change our language and in society, hopefully we place consideration for others above our stubbornness. Not many women I know would find being called a "dame" a polite term, although the original intent was indeed polite. Calling someone a "dick" could mean "private investigator" tho - I doubt if you called a guy that they would take it that way.

That being said, as a woman, I don't personally find "balls to the wall" as terribly offensive. However, I don't find it as something appropriate to say in polite conversation. That's my personal opinion. I've also scoffed when execs have used the term "were in bed with them".

[av8rdave]

57. I get your point, but...

Expressions such as "balls to the wall" are peculiar to my profession, and I have not a second thought using them in that environment. Would I use it in polite, non-aviation conversation? Most likely not, which makes your point.

However, as far as the question in the OP goes, I don't believe that phrase in particular is sexist at all, but then that's because there was nothing sexist whatsoever in its origin. I participated in a similar debate some years ago over the term "cockpit*," which also has no sexual origin or implication.

Though I would not use the "balls to the wall" term in polite conversation, it is more because it's irrelevant outside of an aviation context than it contains the word "balls."

I guess to me, "ball" is one of those words that describes a spherical object. The fact that someone one day chose to apply it to part of the male anatomy doesn't cheapen or change the word at all.

When I'm in Las Vegas and I see signs for "The loosest slots in town," it has no other meaning than gaming to me, though I know that isn't the case for some.

While I'm sitting here typing....HAPPY NEW YEAR! :hi:


* "cockpit" is such an ingrained (and accepted, and used even in official aviation publications) word that I refuse to use any other term for it, including when I make my public address announcements to passengers. My greetings always come from the cockpit - not the flight deck, or control cabin, or any other term that sounds more like an office than what it actually is.

[OhioBlue]

66. Happy New Year to you as well

:hi:

sounds like we agree for the most part.

I didn't even realize that there was such a debate around the word "cockpit".

[Orsino]

62. No one's talking about "going back and changing the original meaning"...

...anymore than we are doing so when we argue in favor of marriage equality.

When we use a phrase now, and an audience hears it now, the received meaning is going to depend less on an obscure original meaning than it will on everyday usage in more recent decades.

I didn't know about the origin of the phrase in aviation, nor did most of my fellow Americans, I submit. I think you ought to concede this much: that we folks ignorant of your preferred usage have been thinking of something else whenever we heard or used it. An archaic meaning, or one out of the mainstream now, has no bearing on what's going through our minds.

See, I've heard the phrase used mostly by men, about men doing stereotypically manly things--usually driving hot rods (now there's another loaded term whose origin might have had nothing to do with our current mental associations).

Isn't it reasonable to set aside this "original" meaning when we are trying to divine the mindset of people who never heard it before? Shouldn't we recognize that meanings evolve and multiply?

[Chan790]

67. Your last paragraph.

It is a question to which the answer is emphatically "No." (with the period, mind you. Not sans punctuation.)

[Orsino]

73. Then could you explain how people unfamiliar with the original meaning...

...could still be thinking about it?

[Chan790]

76. Well...

I'd argue that they're probably misusing it and thus deserve mockery for it...much like my brother who uses "Je'ne sais quot" ("I don't know what") when he means "flair, style or panache". The fact that he has no idea what "je'ne sais quot" means is beautifully ironic...just like when he thought "scatological" meant "esoteric".

So, I'd say it's more legitimate to question people who seem to be misusing it or using in the sexist context as to what they think it means followed by much mockery and a lecture on etymology than it is to buy into their dilution and corruption of language.

I admit, I think of language as absolute and beautiful. I also tend to earn the reputation that I'm an elitist shit.

[av8rdave]

70. You're correct, but because someone who doesn't know better finds it offensive

Isn't the fault of the user of the phrase. As ThomCat so eloquently put it, just because it sounds like a euphemism doesn't mean it is.

I've used the phrase without a second thought through 30 years of aviation, as have my female coworkers and students. My guess would be that in any specialty there are phrases that seem to have a completely different meaning to those outside of that specialty.

I just try not to assume until I know.

[Orsino]

74. Right. Only someone who keeps using it...

...after becoming aware of what else it might mean, might be edging closer to offense. Context is all.

[av8rdave]

81. I use it all the time. The people I use it with (male AND female) are informed and aware

No big deal.

[Orsino]

82. I couldn't ask for more than that. n/t

[panader0]

71. I had a baseball date once

I kissed her on the strikes, she kissed me on the balls.......

[Chan790]

65. Etymology is absolutist.

It's not up for public interpretation. Subsequent usage does not necessitate validation of that usage; the fact that some people are idiots does not change the origins of the word, nor does it by-necessity legitimize that usage.

"Context" is subjective and unique to each individual person. Your statement that "Context is all, and yes, these particular words have taken on a slight masculinist tone that ought to be acknowledged." is striking to me; as Wolfgang Pauli once said: Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch! ("Not only is it not right, it's not even wrong!")

[Orsino]

75. I'll bet you a bundle of faggots that you are incorrect on this point.

Or are you about to tell me that that word's etymology invalidates all other usages?

[Capn Sunshine]

22. except it was always, always meant as a double entendre.

so whatever, because Sticks to the max sounds kind of sexual anyway :bounce:

[WinkyDink]

36. Right. NOBODY TODAY is using it in ANY sense other than the off-color one.

Please do NOT expect us to accept that there are all these male geniuses around who know etymologies.

[av8rdave]

45. If balls must = testicles, then please don't watch any sports events on TV!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. No. It has nothing to do with testicles.

It's old military pilot slang. When you put the "balls to the wall," it means you are pushing the throttle levers, which usually have a round (ball) handle, all the way forward, right up to the instrument panel (wall). In other words, full power.

[Kali]

12. thanks!

I wondered. Knew somebody here would have the scoop.

[av8rdave]

58. Thank you

You are always so much more economical with words than I am!

Happy New Year! I escaped to Mexico for all of this crappy weather. I think it's the only time in my life I've been sipping gin & tonics on the beach while the excrement hits the fan elsewhere. I hope it hasn't been too crazy for you!

:hi:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

59. So you escaped from ATL and missed the blizzard mess out East.

At least for now. I think we will be getting strange wx all winter. You might still get your chance to enjoy it.

Happy new year; enjoy your vacation. I'm envious. I am currently freezing my butt off in MSP -- but I do that every year. Maybe I'll get away later when we're a little less busy.

[petronius]

9. I've never used it because it made no sense to me, and sounded painful

But now that I've learned its non-scrotal origin in this thread, I think it's fine...

[Inchworm]

10. Is "man in the boat?"

:hide:

[madinmaryland]

11. There will always be someone who will find anything you say offensive.

[cherokeeprogressive]

42. Witness some of the replies in this thread. n/t

[lukasahero]

14. I think your post would have been better served

if you just told people your story instead of asking a question. You seem to believe you have your answer and point it out to anyone who seems to think differently. jobycom has the best answer in post #6. In it, he explains why some people might find it sexist. I noticed you didn't respond to that post though.

[pokerfan]

17. Thank you

But I wanted to get responses prior to getting into the etymology. If the average person feels that it has something to do with testicles then perhaps I just shouldn't use it anymore.

[Chan790]

68. Joby is wrong.

I respect him (he's one of the few people I can have a high-falutin comp. lit. debate with.) but sometimes you've got a theory that is so far off the mark it's best left to being ignored like a fart at the opera.

If you look for the "-ism" in everything, you'll find the "-ism" in anything. As the rastas say "-ism is schism."

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moondog]

18. ~

On reconsideration, I have eliminated my rant. To the OP - it wasn't directed towards you; it was directed towards those who accused you of un-PCness.

[tigereye]

19. ehh, I always thought it simply meant "intense"

so, I guess I would say no. :shrug:

[tinkerbell41]

20. To me to be sexist

It would usually be a demeaning, word or phrase.

[one_voice]

23. I don't think so...

I've used the expression before.

[Redstone]

24. Sexist? I don't know. Vulgar, definitely yes.

Redstone

[Throd]

25. Only Udo Dirkschneider knows for sure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_3TlrZLpQ0

[Withywindle]

48. I can't believe how far this thread got before someone posted that.

:headbang:

[MrScorpio]

26. Nnnnaw!

That person is a dumb ass.

[MiddleFingerMom]

27. Oh, the copycat threads I self-censored!!!!!! n/t

[HughBeaumont]

31. I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.

- Bill Cosby

So, yeah, after the "Street Harassment" bear trap, I just decided I'm not going to be "The Most Unattainably Progressive Male In the Universe".

And, if anything, it's also an untintentionally funny Accept song/video.

[xchrom]

32. can i just say -- i LOVE cursing -- cursey type phrases?

cause i do.

[LucySky]

33. No, it is NOT sexist.

There are phrases in our language which may imply either masculinity or feminism, without being "sexist".

The spirit behind the word "sexism" relates to the discrimination of, or the oppression of one gender, usually women.

"Balls to the wall" does not fit into this category just because it is a phrase tilted toward masculinity.

[WinkyDink]

34. It's a vulgarism, if that's what you wanted to know. (PLEASE don't use that "etymology with pilots"

thing, unless you are a certified pilot.)

I suppose you thought all the "Bond Girls' had "just names"?

[Forkboy]

40. Udo didn't think so.

[Kaleva]

41. It wouldn't make any sense if it was supposedly sexist.

What the hell would "testicles to the wall" mean?

[ThomCat]

49. "Testicles to the wall?" um, no, I don't think so.

I can't imagine any way anyone could possible get their testicles up against a wall in a way that could ever mean "giving it everything you've got."

It seems to me that that would be pretty uncomfortable and would prevent you from giving any activity "all that you've got." You're pretty much stuck there not doing anything, as a matter of fact.

So, no, this clearly isn't about testicles, and if it isn't gender based, then it is incredibly unlikely to be sexist. So don't go reading more into it if it just isn't there.

:shrug:


Edit to add: I just saw the aviation explanation for the term "balls to the wall." That makes sense. A lot of terms have technical origins that are now in common use.

Just because it sounds like a sexual euphemism doesn't mean that it is.

[MiddleFingerMom]

50. copykick

[datasuspect]

56. all male children should be aborted since they are *potentially* rapists

[Angry Dragon]

60. The Land of the Amazons

[Skittles]

63. is that "your way?"

[Recovered Repug]

61. Isn't "balls to the wall" another way of saying walnuts?

[JVS]

64. Crude, but I don't see what's sexist about it. Kind of like saying a business went tits-up.

[alphafemale]

69. I got called out for using the word "picnic" once

Yes.

There are people offended by the word "picnic."

Because they are stupid and believe everything they read on the Internet.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

72. no.

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. Only if you can compare going really fast to

pressing testicles against a fence.

I'm SURE there are some who can. Make the comparison I mean.

When I tried to press my testicles against the wall I fell on my ass.

[Bucky]

78. splinters from wall

just think about it.

[snooper2]

83. tits in the wringer?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

84. If it's supposed to mean "testicles to the wall", ...

that would imply a sexist (and very painful) end to your ski holiday.

Wham!

Ow.

:scared: