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Is Adobe starting to flee Apple's sinking ship? (this isn't bashing...)

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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:34 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is Adobe starting to flee Apple's sinking ship? (this isn't bashing...)
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1104_2-5177920.html

Adobe Systems announced on Tuesday that it plans to drop the Mac version of FrameMaker, the latest sign of eroding support for the Apple Computer operating system.

snip

The decision is the latest in a series of snubs against the Apple operating system, long favored by the "creative professionals" who comprise one of Adobe's core audiences. Adobe skipped Mac users in several recent releases, including its Atmosphere 3D graphics application, for which the company declared the Mac market would be too small.

snip

Adobe raised the hackles of Mac fans last year, when it republished test results that indicate that computers with Microsoft's Windows operating system may run some of its applications faster than Macs do.


...

Don't forget, Adobe also dropped Mac support for Premiere, an expensive but great video editing software, some time ago. (I should know about Premiere, it came with the high end video capture card I bought 2 years ago...)

This is VERY bad news though. In the mid 1990s, I was royally pissed because developers went solely to Wintel to make their buck - developers are the reasons any computers exist. How do we get them to support competing platforms? Or is it too late? (I may not like Apple Corporation's fleecing of their own consumers, but I like what software developers have been doing far less...)

Of course, Novell has realized that you have to count on yourself to survive. So has open source... They've got a chance, if they develop quality software to go with the operating system, then others will perk up and respond (Novell has been doing that, and open source does that natively...). OS X is hardly enough, nor is a pretty colored case. Apple needs to make its own "killer apps" to reclaim attention, or else they've killed themselves.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Actually...
Adobe is competing with Apple's software now. So, I wouldn't assume Apple is sinking. Use use a G4 dual 450 Mac with Maya (highend 3D software) and it runs pretty smooth.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's a tough issue
I've worked in Silicon Valley for 20 years, and worked for a lot of companies that had to face this decision.

The problem is it takes just as much work, effort and money to devlelop for the Mac platform, but the payoff is much, much less. Apple's market share is small enough that companies have to question whether it's profitable to develop for it.

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Squeegee Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #2
22. FrameMaker started out on Unix
Edited on Wed Mar-24-04 12:13 AM by Squeegee
Which had a much smaller market share then than the Mac does now. Really, FrameMaker has been languishing a lot over the last couple of years and Adobe has been really pushing competing product, Illustrator. I wouldn't be surprised to see FrameMaker disappear on the PC in the next few years with Illustrator taking its place.
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spinbaby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
3. FrameMaker is junk
We're Quark users in the Mac world. And I don't think Adobe will abandon Mac because so much of the marketing/advertising/publishing world uses it.
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kskiska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. Another Quarkie here
Just look at the graphics ads in any big city newspaper. It's Quark, Illustrator, & Photoshop. I'm stuck here in the South where Pagemaker was king. I was forced to switch to InDesign, but I still use Quark when I can. Actually, I don't know why Adobe is keeping Pagemaker. At least InDesign is a professional program, whereas Pagemaker is amateurish.
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gyopsy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Apple might be better in many ways
but I still don't know anybody who owns an apple. I just don't see how they are managing to compete with PCs.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. What kind of a crowd do you hang out with?
Edited on Tue Mar-23-04 10:39 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
I spend part of most days working in a local coffee shop, as do many other self-employed people in the neighborhood (taking advantage of the free WiFi and the chance to shmooz with other self-employed people), and the ratio of Macs to PC is about four to one. Most of them are newer than mine.

Apple has been declared dead more times than I can remember.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. However, clearly Apple's market share is not 4 to 1 over PC's
Apple has a very small segment of the PC market. I don't know a single Mac user, and virtually everyone I know owns a computer. I think Apple survives by perpetuating a marketing myth, much in the same way that diamonds have a perceived value far in excess of their actual rarity.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I know that Mac owners are a minority
but not everywhere. :-)

People who just want to be able to use their computers and who aren't into "operating system machismo" and don't care about playing every game ever produced or writing Visual Basic code for stupid computer tricks are just fine with Macs.
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Hi, I'm Big McLargehuge, Mac Owner
now you know someone who owns a Mac.

Here's my setup.



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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. we have four
no one I know has a PC. All own Macs.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
5. Also
I forgot to mention the software Adobe is competing with: Adobe Premeire/AfterEffects vs. Final Cut Pro. Both used a lot in the Movie biz.
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historian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. Mac vs Windows
If my memory serves me well apple used to be far better than windows when it came to graphics but i dont believe thats true anymore. I use photoshop in xp and it works beautifully
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. Absolutely still true
When you say your files "work beautifully"...to what? Not an indigo or heidelberg. To what? What output device? Output devices work better with Mac files. Most PC software is still junk. At work, we're know we're dealing with the "arts and crafts" crowd when we get PC files. They're not for graphics professionals.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
7. apple screwed
themselves years ago and their customers and now they are paying the price. i`ve always wanted a mac but the cost is just to much....
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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. *YAWN*
Got an argument from this decade?
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. Frame maker is OLD layout tool
there are three or four others that will do the job on a Mac: Quark, InDesign (an Adobe tool), and as for Premiere, Mac gives away iMove and sells Final Cut Pro. Final Cut Pro runs rings around Premier (I've used them both).
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
11. Windows has a fundamental flaw
As long as font rendering is so closely tied to screen display, funny things will happen moving files from Windows PC to Windows PC. I've been out of the printer/pre-press business for something like six years now, but that is the fundamental flaw in doing pre-press on Windows.

I think Adobe's action might have more to do with the limited market for FrameMaker, which is for publishing large complex documents (often heavy on text,although some people used to use it for catalog work).

God, how I hated PC files back when I was running a pre-press shop.

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Atman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Big deal...who the hell uses FrameMaker?
Most professionals use Quark Xpress for publication work. As long as Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat are available (unfathomable that they'd drop this market) all is cool. Pulling a product out of a market that didn't want it hardly spells doom for Apple. Also, last year Apple acquired Tremor and Shake, 3D modeling and rendering apps used in the production of LOTR. Yup, Apple owns 'em.

Apple was also credited just today on CNN for almost single-handedly reviving the music industry, who finally saw sales increase last quarter, at least partially attributed to iTunes.

Yeah...Apple is still just about to go out of business. After all these years...just around the corner. Apple is doomed. Any day now they're gone, once again.

Pretty soon! I swear!

Watch out!

They're goners. Almost.
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. You left out
InDesign. We're seeing more and more InDesign files. Quark used to be the standard, but they have such lousy customer service that InDesign is making inroads.
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
31. God, I hate Quark
At my college, we stopped teaching Quark Express and started with InDesign because of those same problems. Bad customer service and licensing fees are way too expensive. We also teach Illustrator and Photoshop and InDesign also works better with native files from these two programs and renders text better than Quark. Not to mention the familiarity of the interface with our students. A few bugs need to be worked out with output. Other than that, we are very happy. A lot of us teachers also have started using InDesign for out freelance work and we like it alot.
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gold_bug Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. the products they've dropped from the mac line
so far don't really matter IMO and doesn't indicate that Adobe is bailing out on mac. They've issued statements that they'll continue to stick with mac.
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democracyindanger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-23-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. I wouldn't characterize it as 'losing faith'
More likely that Adobe questions why they should keep making software for a computer whose manufacturer keeps coming up with apps that compete directly with Adobe. Adobe will always be behind Apple in development.
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Squeegee Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. Adobe wants to kill it
FameMaker hasn't been really pushed much by Adobe and has been lingering for quite a while. Death on the Mac is just a prelude to abandoning it on the PC.
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secretshopper Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
23. New software coming out...
Yo HypnoToad,

According to Adobe, they will be ceasing support for FrameMaker (I won't miss it) and PageMaker (Noooo! I have used it for 20 years...) and replacing them both with some new product called inDesign. I hope it kicks severe ass, because I was ready to drop several large for an OS X optimized PageMaker.

Who am I? I worked at Compaq and H-P and had Macs at home. Now, I and Red_Viking just upgraded to a pair of PowerBook 17s (let me just pause a moment and say they are SWEET!) and life just gets better all the time.

There are millions of PCs, most doing nothing more interesting than checking email and creating word processing documents. Some people try to do more elaborate stuff, and usually are the "heat seekers" who enjoy fiddling with the system to add a digital camera, or new accessory. It is not your typical PC doing that.

My theory is that Macs represent the TOP 5% of the computing marketplace, but they will always be around until Microsoft finds another way to create features for Wintel platforms. It's not a slam, it's just the way history has played: Mac windowing OS, fully functional in 1984, Windows, not even functional in 1985, maybe 1990... Macs up to six monitor support 1987, Windows, dual monitor support maybe 1997... and so on. Digital Video cameras use 1394 ports, also called FireWire, invented by Apple, and the video data is based on QuickTime.

Having choices in the PC world also means that you have incompatible competitors duking it out until Microsoft buys one and puts the rest out of business.

Macintoshes have a much tighter integration of the hardware, the applications, and the operating system. It makes a difference like using chopsticks versus a fork, or automatic transmissions versus a manual. For some folks, if all you know is one, using another is hard. But once you realize that one requires less manipulation to achieve the same (or better result) it makes the differences much larger.

So, Adobe is ceasing support of some products, but they are continuing support for the platform. Most designers expect nothing less.

My 2 cents...

Secret Shopper
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BigMcLargehuge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Pagemaker Vs. InDesign
InDesign is great. It's fully integrated with Photoshop and Illustrator. The layout pallet is better, and it's WAAAAAY more stable. I use it in a Win 2000 environment for work and it's light years ahead of pagemaker.
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Zinfandel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
26. Hasn't Apple been sinking since 1978? They aren't still around are they?
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
27. Thanks for the Laugh!!
These threads always make me giggle.

Yeah, they're scrapping a piece of shit that few people use. THE SKY IS FALLING!


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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 05:28 AM
Response to Original message
28. Let's see, not bashing but you include the phrase "sinking ship"
And your header is pathetically engulfed by quotes, as if weakly attributed to someone else, but that line appears nowhere in the link you provided.

I'm absolutely shocked, coming from HypnoToad.

Oh no the ultimate suicide watch, they are abandoning FrameMaker! The most recent update was for OS 9, nothing for OS X. HypnoToad predictably left that fact out of his carefully selected snips, in the latest round of whiny and desperate Apple-bashing. What millennium was that, OS 9? Next thing you know I'll no longer have access to a persimmon driver.

I gamble for a living, HypnoToad. Bigtime. I would love to wager $10,000 even-money that Apple is still surviving (and flourishing) 10 years hence, March 24, 2014. But I can trust Harrah's and the Hilton, etc, to pay up when I win. That certainly does not apply here.
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. How could any progressive hope for the demise of Apple?
Edited on Thu Mar-25-04 12:12 AM by Art_from_Ark
That would be like hoping that Wal-Mart drives the downtown merchants out of business.

I love iTunes-- innovated by Apple. Thanks to iTunes, I can store 100 CDs or more in one computer, and have any song or audio recording in my collection, automatically indexed, at my fingertips. It also saves wear and tear on the disks.

Quick Time is also great-- it beats the crap out of Windows Media Player and RealPlayer.

iMovie is another wonderful innovation by Apple. My son recently used it to edit a movie his class made. I was amazed at the ease and skill with which he used it.

Then there's OSX-- it kicks Windows butt to Pluto and back. There's little need to worry about viruses-- it can't read the .exe files that are so popular with the virus spreaders. What's more, it asks for permission to open a strange file. If the system crashes, just restart the computer, and in most cases the computer will fix the glitches automatically! And if, by some chance that doesn't work, just insert the software restore disk and follow the instructions.

And if the systems crashes and you're working on an AppleWorks text file, the computer will automatically save the file at the point where the system crashed.

As for game software, it's out there. My son's been downloading all sorts of OSX games recently.
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BlackVelvetElvis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. A plus
not only do I not have to worry about Trojans and viruses, OSX also has built in security against them. My only complaint: Its a RAM hog. I've been running OSX for a year and had to reboot only once.
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absyntheNsugar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-25-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
30. Well, the fact that Jobs is investing so much in Itunes and Ipod
leads me to think Apple is getting ready to shift directions.

I used to work there, and before I left I saw resources shifting...
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