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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 03:54 PM
Original message
Poll question: Is the word "lady" patronizing?
I'm in another thread and it's been brought up. It's a gun forum thing and I disagreed with Rachel Maddow and this is what I said, "She's a bright lady but she's wrong on this issue. She's a fighter but she's willing to give up this right? Doesn't make sense."

Is that patronizing or sexist? I can somewhat understand the other poster complaining about the word bright but I have heard it used in many situations. But lady? I have never heard that one before. Is it patronizing? Or sexist? Or does it depend on the way its used?

Thanks for the input.

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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brendan120678 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Depends on the context, I suppose.
I don't think your use it is patronizing.
At least you didn't use "girl." That maybe would have been a little worse.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Girl is fine for a girl. My granddaughters are girls. The oldest is going to be 14 later this month.
I will refer to her as a young woman henceforth unless she prefers the term girl. Her sisters, who are 11 and 8 respectively, will remain "girls" in my terminology. They are children altho my 11 year old has reached menarche. As such, she should be classed as an "older child" since she is just that.

I do not approve of people ascribing all kinds of sexual innuendo to these girls who rightfully do not wish to be known in those terms.

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Louisiana1976 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
81. I'm 51 and don't mind being called a "girl." Makes me feel young. :-)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. and I know

there are hundreds of thousands of middle-aged African-American men who feel exactly the same way about being called "boy"!!!!

Yeesh.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. What does that have to do with what she said though?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. don't tell me, let me guess

I'm actually in the Twilight Zone ...
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. So you think she should be offended? You want her to be offended
by the term lady?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. do threads run sideways in The Twilight Zone?

Please, do read the post to which the post of mine you initially replied to was a reply.

Let me give you a hint.

The word in question was not "lady", it was "girl".
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. Excuse me. Girl. I have been reading this whole thread so I am
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 01:39 PM by Shell Beau
so sorry to have written the wrong word. Still, if it doesn't offend her, it doesn't offend her. It doesn't offend me either. That isn't to say you can't be offended by it, but why equate it to African American men being called boys? Not the same thing at all.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. do people engage in analytical thought in The Twilight Zone?

why equate it to African American men being called boys? Not the same thing at all.

Oh. Really. Well then. I'll remember that next time I'm tempted to call on the long history of women being infantilized, brutalized and denied the exercise of fundamental rights, by social mores, laws, governments and men. INFANTILIZED being the specific issue here.

Why, that just isn't at all like the way African-Americans were treated by social mores, laws, governments and white people.

Thank you for reminding me.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Her not being offended by the word girl doesn't have anything
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 01:51 PM by Shell Beau
to do with black men who are offended by the word boy. Period. She gets offended by what offends her. That is it.


And let go of the Twilight Zone. We get it already.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. to answer my question:

Evidently not.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. Um, yeah, ok.
Try and have some fun. So serious. Life is too short.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #101
105. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #98
161. Context is everything. Diminutives can be both terms of endearment AND insults.
It all depends on CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. In languages like Spanish and French that make distinctions between formal and informal 2nd Person pronouns the same thing applies, the informal can be used as both a form of endearment or as an insult, it's all context.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #81
106. all right, i'll do it
so what's the big deal about "feeling young"? why do you want people to treat and think of you as a child? are you afraid women aren't valued as much as girls are? are you ashamed of having lived to the age of 51? would you rather die than age? do you want to be daddy's girl all your life? are you afraid to be a grown up?

think about WHY it is that you want to feel young, and be treated like a girl instead of an adult.

get it now? sheesh.

and there is nothing wrong with posts by iverglas ... i agree with her 100% on this one.

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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. Many people want to feel young. No one should feel like there
is something wrong with them for feeling that either. It is human nature. And no, I still don't get it. She's not offended by it. Neither am I. That doesn't make me not want equality for women or people all together. Some things just aren't offensive to everyone. Most times it isn't used to be offensive.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
127. can Louisiana1976 not speak for herself?
perhaps she's too young and girlish :rofl:
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. She checked out I guess. I was just giving my 2 cents.
I am still young though. 31 now, but I still reminisce the days of being only 21. Oh well.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #131
162. Taling about youth, your little girl is adorable!
:D
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #162
216. Thanks!!!! I happed to agree with you!
;)
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #113
192. You're too young to remember why it matters and young enough to not need to care
Enjoy it while you can.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #192
203. So basically, you are saying my opinion doesn't matter here.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #203
207. LOL. No, that's not at all what I said......
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #106
191. Especially in the context of the workplace, which is what the Rachel Maddow comment was about.
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 06:02 PM by omega minimo
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
190. Wouldn't apply to you in a professional context though, such as OP comment on Rachel Maddow
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Only when Jerry Lewis says it.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
102. OMG..Thats the first thing that popped into my head.
:scared:
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Curtland1015 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. Depends on the context, I suppose. But then ANY word can be patronizing depending on the context.
I don't think there's anything sexist about the word "lady", per se... other than the fact that it defines the person as one sex or the other. But there's nothing inherently demeaning or sexist about it. It's just a descriptive word.

If I said my friend Pete was a smart guy, I wouldn't be implying all guys are stupid and Pete's the exception. The same would be true if I were to say my friend Beth was a smart lady.

But if I were to say "Nice one smart guy!", that would be patronizing. Not sexist in the least, but patronizing nonetheless.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I hadn't thought of the word "guy" relating to this.
Good point. Thanks.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Not quite. The term 'lady' assumes a minimum degree of gracious/polite behavior. 'Woman' does not.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. the term "lady" is *prescriptive*

It instructs women in the way they are to behave, and rewards them with the label if they conform to the stereotype.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Interesting way to put it! I'd never thought of it that way. nt
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
163. Not in modern speech, it doesn't
At least in my area it is a mere politeness distinction, nothing more. I think you are over-thinking things, language has no memory of usages and meanings that have gone extinct (that's why it's so jarring for people my age to hear "gay" meaning "happy".)
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
193. You think that, because you disregard word origin and history -- yet talk about "context"
"But there's nothing inherently demeaning or sexist about it."
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Lady" has aristocratic connotations.
Given that you already used "she", there's no reason to use "lady." Instead, you could say, "She's a bright commoner" or "She's a bright citizen."
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
164. Language develops reduncancies all the time.
I'm learning Spanish and redundant usage of direct and indirect object pronouns is common, even required.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
6. Unfortunately, yes. We do not use it in the same circumstances we use 'gentleman'. Its use
coupled with 'men' as in: Men's and ladies apparel on sale, shows that 'women' are more widely expected to behave like 'ladies' than 'men' are expected to behave like 'gentlemen'.

The expression, "Hey, Lady, do such and such!" as shouted by a cab driver has pretty much ruined the word in many contexts.

It's not meant to be a substitute for 'woman'.
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Curtland1015 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Well, a lot of words aren't "meant" for things, but that doesn't stop the meanings from changing.
I'm not saying you are wrong in what you said. But the meanings of words change and permutate all the time. Popular usage pretty much effects everything we say.

I doubt most people that use the word "lady" now mean it in any other way than "woman", even if they were completely different terms once upon a time.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. Bleh.....
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 01:45 AM by ProudToBeBlueInRhody
Let's simplify our language to the point we talk like Tarzan.

Oh, wait, we're probably pretty much there.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
52. Yeah I'm not a big fan of lady.. I prefer
chick, babe, honey, sweetie, sexy, cutie, etc.. :rofl:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. In the right circumstances, those are the right words!
Context is everything.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. heheheh
indeed - and as a guy, i'm very considerate and respectful towards women in general, i just can't be tied down by TOO much political correctness.. :)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Neither can I among friends.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
171. Lady and Gentleman also come from times when Men had all Power/Rights and Women had None
They will never be equivalent
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #171
173. Words don't have inherent meanings, they change over time.
Just because words have a certain connotation in the past doesn't mean they have that certain connotation now.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #173
174. That is not true.
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 02:57 PM by omega minimo
Repeating it doesn't make it true. Claiming the meaning or "connotation" has changed doesn't make it true.

The meaning is embedded and transmitted in the words. The words represent, encode and perpetuate the culture that they reflect.

Being ignorant of that meaning, ignoring it willfully or unthinkingly, changes nothing.

The lack of interest in the origin and meaning of words is an aspect of the Orwellian times we are in, that might concern someone as bright as you.

Yes, it's a hip generational thing now to pretend that meanings disappear because people are ignorant of them -- but it's not true.

Take "shit." Once shocking, now everyones says "shit" and the connotation has changed. "Shit" still means "shit."

"Suck," once shocking, now everyone says "suck." It still means "you suck dick" but most people don't think about it. Still means "you suck dick."


Words still convey the power and meaning encoded in them.

In this case, another example of the discrepancy between male and female social status, used in a way that emphasizes the discrepancy between male and female social status, by someone willfully ignorant of how the words encode the discrepancy between male and female social status.

And I hope you will read those other posts. :hi:



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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #174
178. Wrong, it is true.
A basic principle of language change is that language changes have no memory. When the last person who is used to using "gay" to mean "happy" dies that old meaning dies.

The British curse word "bloody" originated as a less-than polite reference to the Virgin Mary's menstrual fluid ("by our Lady's blood"), the original connotation is so forgotten that there are many linguists that question that hypothesis for the origin of the term.

"Fuck" and "shit" are still used as verbs that retain the original meaning in everyday speech, they are not relevant to the processes I'm talking about.

"Suck" and blow" are in an intermediate phase, but most people are still oblivious to the etymology of those verbs when they use them. I use "suck" on a daily basis and have never used to to mean fellatio. Give a couple more generations and the original connotations will be completely forgotten.

I suggest you read "The Stuff of Thought" by Steven Pinker, it has a lot of interesting stuff on the meanings for words.

I think you are giving words far to much power than is warranted. The Infamous Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis is considered nonsense, hardly any linguist rakes it seriously any more, and the accuracy of Whorf's claims have been called into question.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #178
179. Did you read the posts?
I don't believe your hypothesis. And you saying "have never used to to mean fellatio" just means you don't know what you're saying. "You suck!" means "You suck dick" and fellatio is too polite a word for the force behind why people say "you suck" -- WHETHER THEY ARE AWARE OF IT OR NOT.

Did you read the posts as mentioned above on this particular case?

"I think you are giving words far to much power than is warranted."

And more and more people in our Orwellian times will agree with you. Including people who write books.

Doesn't make it so.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #179
180. This is the mainstream opinion of lingusits.
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 03:45 PM by Odin2005
Disagree with it? Take it up with folks like Steve Pinker and Ray Jackendoff

And Yes, I did read the posts.

In my mind "you suck" simply means "you suck", with no sexual connotation. The sexual etymology is only learned years after kids learn the verb, when those kids use it they sure as heck are not meaning it to mean anything sexual. When kids stop learning the etymological origin of the verb (because people that were around when the semantic shift occurred die) that original sexual meaning with be lost to most people.

Another, less vulgar example is the world "silly", which originally meant "behaviorally pure", than meant "innocent", then "kind", then "naive", then "stupid", and then finally "foolish".

An ongoing semantic change around here is the shift of "guy" to be a gender-neutral term, many people why age will ask a group of women "what are you guys doing?".
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #180
182. And you know the "guy" thing is bullshit
Women don't have to accept being called that - or anything else - because a bunch of "guys" say so.

I don't care what your (male) experts say. Language and culture and humanity are much more nuanced than this linear, historic March of Willful Ignorance that you are purporting.

And you didn't read the posts.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #182
212. (male) experts?
Your misandry is showing.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. Your ignorance is showing.
It was an exchange with Odin2005, which you didn't read, just crapped on. :evilfrown:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #174
194. nice one

If I get started, I tend to get a little, uh, wordy. ;)
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. Gloria Steinem said it was okay to use the word "ladies" again about 20 years ago
If Gloria says it, it's so.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. What if Gloria says that she isn't Gloria?
On the one hand, if Gloria says it, then it must be so. On the other hand, if she isn't Gloria then, starting from the assumption "she says it", we cannot arrive at the conclusion "Gloria says it."
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Nice post, Captain Kirk


You and your blasted human logic....

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. Only if the woman in question is actually acting like a fishwife
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. what a sad dump this place is

Intelligent, decent people stopped using codewords for "woman" several decades ago.

It's another century now, nay, another millennium, and still there are people who claim to be progressive / liberal / d/Democratic and yet have missed that whole feminism thang.

(And no, I don't give a shit what Gloria Steinem said about much of anything.)

What's utterly fascinating is that the same person who used this patronizing, patriarchal terminology to describe an intelligent woman then tried to insult me by assuring me that I would never be addressed as a lady.

As I said: :wtf:

Also: :rofl: of course.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. "this patronizing, patriarchal terminology"
How do you justify the claim that it's patronizing terminology?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. If I wanted to read your moronic bot posts

I'd seek them out.

Or for the equivalent chuckle,

www.jabberwacky.com
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I wanted other people's opinions.
I have my own and I just to see what others thought. I'm received some interesting answers. (not yours of course)

All you have done with your posts on this subject is prove once again that age doesn't bring wisdom or maturity.

No shocker there. :rofl:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
40. and all you have done is prove once again

that you're a member in good standing of the gun militant brigade with all its racist, misogynist, right-wing underpinnings.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #40
90. Really? I think I know what you really mean.
You're hinting at racist, misogynist, right-wing undertones because I'm a RKBA Democrat? :rofl:

I believe in a lot of things. All people are created equal, a lady has the right to choose, gay people have the right to get married, we should have the public option, we should be able to say what we want, love who we want, worship want we want(or not) and no one has the right to take our guns. Pot should be legal, we should be out of Iraq, Members of bushco should prosecuted for violations of US and international law. Oh and I voted for Kerry and Obama. Yeah....I see where you're getting the right-wing thing.

"that you're a member in good standing of the gun militant brigade with all its racist, misogynist, right-wing underpinnings."

Oh, I get it. People who disagree with you. If they disagree with you then they must be racists and right-wing misogynists right?
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
29. "Intelligent, decent people stopped using codewords for "woman" several decades ago."
Why? Did someone ban thesauruses in the the "intelligent, decent" world?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
165. Words change their meaningsd over time.
"Lady" doesn't have that "patronizing, patriarchal" meaning anymore unless the person is intentionally use the archaic meanings to be an ass.
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Bryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. It is when I use it
"Look, lady, I'm not responsible for this charge, and I want it taken off the bill..."
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
166. I would say "look, ma'am".
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
20. Depends on how it's used
I use it on occasion, and I'm a feminist. However, I use it in a slightly sardonic sense, as most words used to describe females are pretty fucked up. As a rule of thumb maybe, wherever one needs to specify gender as in "He's a bright man-- --"She's a bright woman" would work just fine.

To put it in perspective, (kind of) "He's a bright gentleman" would have a bit of a different value impact than "She's a bright lady". For women, gender specific language identifiers, (many if not most belittling or unkind) are entrenched in our language, and words shape culture, so I do understand your puzzlement.
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mentalsolstice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. I hate being called ma'am.
I'm only 48...
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Yes, makes me want to vomit. Lady is fine with me.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
31. That's always a tricky one.
I've worked many jobs with lots of customer interaction and it's always something to measure first when you address a lady. It's different with guys. I've found that 9 out of 10 men that are 25+ have no problem being called "sir." While women and "ma'am" is a bit of a craps-shoot.

Many of the gray-hair set appreciate it (just like older gentlemen appreciate the "sir") so my rule of thumb is that if the lady doesn't have silver hair then "ma'am" is a no-no. Because a misplaced "ma'am" will get you a very dirty look.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
42. Yeah, it stings, but it is polite. In the military community, I started getting that in my '20s. nt
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Louisiana1976 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
83. For me ma'am depends on the context and the spirit in which it's said--
if used in a polite, charming manner I don't mind it, if used disrespectfully or with a rude tone of voice I can't stand it.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
86. And you know ma'am is something I say automatically to anyone
older than I. It was ingrained in me to say ma'am and sir to adults from childhood. But now when people say it to me, I hate it because I am only 31, but it is the southern thing to do I guess.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #86
159. It was beaten into me as well. I do the same. I'm 50. nt
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #86
205. I'm from the north and it's hard for me not to say ma'am or sir.
I know some people don't like it but it's pretty automatic for me.
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
24. Good God! When did being gentlemen become incorrect
Sorry, this pc SHIT HAS GONE TOO FAR.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. It didn't
There are some people who are just looking for an argument.
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Dr. Strange Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
37. Please don't use the term "gentlemen."
It is a heteronormative term designed to subjugate people who identify themselves as male in an attempt to fortify the dictates of the prevailing hegemony of a violent culture. In addition, the Oakland Raiders suck ass.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
41. No one said it was. nt
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
73. Yeah, because gentlemen don't care if they offend people.
Used to be that being a "gentleman" meant that a person did their very best not to offend. That's being PC. When did being a gentleman come to mean being a rude-ass jerk who gets angry at having to try not to insult people?
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #24
149. A gentleman would listen to someone who says the word they used is insulting
Oh, did I tell you what you didn't want to hear?

Tough fucking shit.

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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
25. "Patronizing" is sexist.
:eyes:
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-03-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
26. Hey ladies!
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Ahh, old Beastie.
Always a treat! ;-)
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. The word "woman" can be patronizing too.
As in "Woman, you don't know what you are talking about."
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Schema Thing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:57 AM
Response to Original message
33. intent is everything. This goes for every word ever used in the history of words.



Which makes for some irritating discussions on discussion boards, where people seldom try very hard to clue in on intent but rather sanctify their own perception of what a word means.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
34. I would rather be referred to as "Lady" than as "girl." I can't stand to hear adult
women referred to as "girl." :grr:

Call me woman, lady, active adult, but don't call me girl. I'm nearing 60 and nobody would call a man my age a "boy."

This is one of my pet peeves; I started a thread about it ages ago. Maybe I'll do it again some day. :-)



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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. The use of that in the workplace has really left scars. I'm touchy about the use of diminutives
to refer to women or things female.

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
35. The whole issue was just a side show and a intellectually poor way of addressing the real issue you
were discussin. One can claim pretty much any word in the English language is offensive in soome way, it doesn't make it so.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. really?

There's an "issue" here? --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

proteus_lives Thu Sep-03-09 04:14 PM
61. She's a bright lady but she's wrong on this issue.
She's a fighter but she's willing to give up this right? Doesn't make sense.


Wow. There's some intellectual powerhouse addressing of issues.

The "issue" was that Rachel Maddow enjoys sports shooting but believes that public policy should prohibit the keeping of firearms in homes. (I suspect she was referring mainly to handguns, but the interview didn't specify.) I'm not sure how one addresses that "issue". The thread itself was the usual shit-flinging fest that most threads in the Guns forum consist of.

You all might want to note that the objection was to the phrase "bright lady".

My post was an objection to diminishing the status of the speaker, Rachel Maddow, and the weight of her arguments, by using language the intent and effect of which is to do just that.

Google will tell you how often Hillary Clinton has been referred to as a "bright lady".

Perhaps we can find instances of men of equivalent stature and intellect being referred to in such tacky ways.

Children and protgs are "bright". And we all know what "lady" is, whether we want to admit it or not.


I do not wish to be discussed in this place. This entire thread is essentially a violation of the rule against calling out.

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Women should accept a man's opinon of what they should find offensive?
You're smarter than that NJ.

It's not a rock 'em, sock 'em issue, but it has meaning.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
54. Intellectually and logically speaking
one still needs to justify a claim of something being offensive. It's not merely enough to declare something offensive. If you don't have at least some minimal standard you are putting people in the position to dictate the language of others on only a whim.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. funny thing

I've always expected people posting at a liberal / progressive / d/Democratic discussion forum to both KNOW and CARE about issues like these.

Language is important. And if anyone really does not understand the issue/s, there are internet search engines available to help them learn a little history.


If you don't have at least some minimal standard you are putting people in the position to dictate the language of others on only a whim.

No one here is capable of "dictating" anything. This is just the "political correctness" conversation-ender in another guise. No one who raises the issue of language in a discussion is capable of controlling anyone else's speech -- or has any desire for that to be done.

Your own assertion that the issue is raised because of a "whim" is in fact exactly what you are accusing others of:

one still needs to justify a claim of something being offensive.

No justification for alleging "whim" that I see.


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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Does anyone have a desire for the DU rules to be enforced?
From the post that I'm replying to:
No one who raises the issue of language in a discussion is capable of controlling anyone else's speech -- or has any desire for that to be done.


From another post in this thread:
This entire thread is essentially a violation of the rule against calling out.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. I think I've made it rather clear

on many occasions that I find every word you type to be a waste of bandwidth.

This website's owners and administrators are entitled to set and enforce whatever rules they choose.

Users of the website are entitled to the protection of the rules to which they agreed when they took out "membership" in the website.

If anybody doesn't like the rules, they're welcome to leave or take the matter up with the owners and administrators.

Your post is a piece of disingenuous shit.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. "disingenuous"
I think that you expressed a sincere displeasure with this thread when you wrote:
This entire thread is essentially a violation of the rule against calling out.


In contrast, the following...
No one who raises the issue of language in a discussion is capable of controlling anyone else's speech -- or has any desire for that to be done.

... appears to be disingenuous.

I acknowledge that you deserve credit for finding and typing a word that fits: "disingenuous." I merely recognized it when it was sitting in plain sight.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. disingenuous

You are nothing if not.

The rules of this board are not made by me, but I am ENTITLED TO THE PROTECTION OF the rules of this board, because I and EVERYONE ELSE POSTING HERE have agreed to abide by them.

Anyone who wants to post something that would violate the rules of this board, if posted here, somewhere else, is welcome to find a forum for their speech elsewhere.

Anyone who posts at this board has AGREED to control their speech / have their speech controlled AT THIS SITE by the owners of the site according to the rules of this site.

And it really is beyond disingenuous to a few other words starting with "d" for you to persist in asserting that my reference to the rules of this site is a desire to control anyone's speech.

Will you just go away now? You are annoying and pointless.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #75
95. "my reference to the rules of this site"
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 01:38 PM by Boojatta
You asserted that this particular thread violates the DU rules, but the DU rules obviously don't include such an assertion.

You could have made reference to the DU rules for any number of reasons. For example, you could have said that they are burdensome and difficult for you to obey. You didn't say that.

You could accuse a person of a "fashion crime" and then characterize the accusation as a "reference to the rules of fashion." More likely, it would be a personal criticism of the way the person is dressed.

When we include a reference to the person who makes the judgment, things become clearer. "I consider that to be a fashion crime" sounds like code for "I condemn the way you are dressed." (We need to be careful here. A person who makes an accusation of a fashion crime doesn't necessarily wish that the fashion crime had not been committed. The accuser may relish an opportunity to accuse.)

Similarly, "I consider the creation of this thread to be a language crime" is a lot like "I wish that something were done to control and/or condemn the speech that is the Original Post of this thread."
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. I'm thinking your response is trying to cover from the fact
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 12:47 PM by NJmaverick
that there is no history of the term "lady" being considered a derogatory or demeaning term. Instead you are deciding that you don't like what a poster wrote and lacking a better response you tried to create an issue where one doesn't exist. That's just how it looks to me. If you have some sort of justification for the term "lady" being offensive, I would be more than happy to hear and listen with an open mind. Otherwise I consider your claims frivolous.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. I don't give a flying fuck how it looks to you

The initial exchange took part in a context with which you are unfamiliar. So how things look to you are of the most supreme irrelevance to anything.

If you have some sort of justification for the term "lady" being offensive, I would be more than happy to hear and listen with an open mind. Otherwise I consider your claims frivolous.

And I stopped wasting my time on disingenous/ignorant invitations to waste my time some decades ago.

About 1975, I think it was.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Then I guess it's settled then
I consider your claims frivolous and with out merit and you don't care.

Although we do agree that you are wasting your time with your slanderous changes (the accusations of lying and ignorance) you are making against me. Then again you seem to have a complete and utter disdain for intellectual honesty so I guess that's to be expected
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #71
108. no history of the term lady being considered offensive?
you're kidding right?

if that's true, well then let's start that history right fucking now! someone had to be the first to decide using nigger was offensive, then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. same with all the other offensive words used to refer to a class of people.



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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
114. I have read some inane things in here, but lady you take the cake.
Comparing that n word with the word lady is the stupidest post I have ever read. If they gave out awards for stupidity you would receive one for that post. You should be so proud.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. Wait a month or two...
... and slip a reference to "the L word" in some GD thread. If anybody knows what you're talking about, then it will be either evidence that someone has a good memory or evidence that the L word is indeed a terrible thing. See? I'm saying it now myself. I cannot bring myself to type more than the first letter of the L word.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Come on give it up. What the hell is the L word?
Love is the only thing I can think of. Is that an offensive word now too?
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. Lady
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #117
121. Oh come on you can say lady. I really thought you meant a different topic.
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 06:52 PM by newcriminal
You can say lady in GD. I have never been flamed for it. This nonsense might happen in the gun forum, but not in the lounge or in GD. While I can't speak for all of the ladies of the lounge, I can't imagine any of them being offended by the word lady.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #114
128. like i said, someone had to be the first to challenge use of the n-word too
and i'm sure they were laughed at too.

take your "lady" bullshit, fold it five ways, and shove it up your ass

:)
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #128
133. Spoken like a true lady.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #133
135. spoken like a true asshole. n/t
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. Is the word "asshole" patronizing?
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #128
144. "Shove it up your ass" AND light it on fire. nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #108
118. so now I say we leave them to their own devices
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 06:28 PM by iverglas

the main device being the rope with which they are hanging themselves on their own utter and abject stupidity and assholery.

Can you imagine wanting to make yourself look like that in public??

!
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #118
143. You sound all holier than thou now,
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
167. For someone so concerned about "language" your knowledge of lingustics is wanting.
You are not understanding basic principles of Semantics, the concept of CONTEXT and SEMANTIC DRIFT being examples.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #167
188. my knowledge isn't lacking
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 05:25 PM by iverglas

I can tell, for instance, that your post had precisely fuck all to do with the content of my post.

If you would like to demonstrate the relevance of context and semantic drift to anything under discussion here, you feel free.

What is under discussion here is someone's choice to refer to Rachel Maddow as a "bright lady" in a situation in which he sought to persuade that her opinion on a topic very disproportionately dear to the hearts of men - guns - was not a good opinion.

Context is very definitely relevant. Semantic drift? Well, if you're referring to "lady" becoming a patronizing rather than pseudo-respectful term, you may have a point.



typo fixed
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #188
201. That's the point was I trying to make.
Terms of politeness or endearment are very often commandeered as insults. That can happen against ANY term of politeness. Like I mentioned, in languages with politeness distinctions in their pronouns (like English used to have, "thou" was informal and "you" was formal and plural) if you want to belittle and insult someone you use the informal form when it is not appropriate.

I am not denying that the poster was an ass. If I made you think I was defending the person I'm sorry, I was doing nothing of the sort.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
43. The joys of political correctness.
If someone wants to be offended, or at least assume offense to use your own terminology as a truncheon against you, there ain't much you can do about it.

Common courtesy is a cooperative effort that requires latitude from both parties. PC is too often used to manipulate others and frame the discussion. Unfortunately, it can ultimately lead to disingenuous behavior since there is an assumption that if you just use the right word your intent is benign and genuine. Frames work both ways.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Another man telling women what they should find offensive. nt
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. And what would that be?
Your post is a good case in point.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. Perhaps we should all just be called "undeclared"
like some people..... ... ....
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. I'm open about my sex in threads like this. nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
63. I guess the right term here would be

Wow, what a big man.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. 10" Ms. Undeclared
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Deleted sub-thread
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. well I guess I'll have to say it again

PC is too often used to manipulate others and frame the discussion.

Yes.

The accusation of "PC" is used to attempt to silence anyone who objects to racist, misogynist, homophobic or otherwise bigoted language.

It's that simple.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Absolutely
Language is malleable and can be used for good or ill. It all depends on the intent of both participants in the discussion.

It was a pleasure to respond to your post. Thank you.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
76. That's a lazy man's argument to explain being a jerk.
PC has always been here. It was called manners in the past, or the Golden Rule, or just good behavior. Lately the Republicans have managed to make it a bad word so they can still tell their favorite racist jokes and not omit the slurs.

You claim courtesy should be a cooperative effort. Bingo. Then cooperate. Quit using language you know will offend someone and make an effort to consider both parties in a discussion. Use your own definition as you wrote it, in other words, instead of using it to mean "All y'all should let me say what I want and only worry about how I feel."

Shame on anyone on a liberal board for repeating their talking points. Shame.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #76
79. ---
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 12:45 PM by iverglas

Can't think of anything to say!

Er, ditto. ;)


edit - but I could add, from your profile:

"Democrats should be nicer than Republicans"


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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #76
94. I had to trot off
to Wikipedia and have a look at the term since I hadn't given it much thought since my grad school days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness
In left-wing rhetoric
Even before the term PC appeared, the Left mocked its own language usage in the pamphlet Lifeitselfmanship or How to Become a Precisely-Because Man (1956), by Jessica Mitford, about L and non-L (Left and non-Left) English, mocking the Communist clichs used by her comrades when talking about fighting the class struggle. The pamphlets title refers to the Stephen Potter book series including the title Lifemanship, and replies to Noblesse Oblige, by Nancy Mitford, about the perceptible class distinctions in British English usage, that popularized the phrases U and non-U English (Upper class and non-Upper class). <9><10>

In the event, by 1970, New Left proponents had adopted the term political correctness. <1> In the essay The Black Woman, Toni Cade Bambara says: . . . a man cannot be politically correct and a chauvinist too a usage that widened the definitions scope to include the politics of gender and identity to the politics of ideologic orthodoxy in governing. The New Left thus re-appropriated the term political correctness as satirical self-criticism; per Debra Shultz: Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the New Left, feminists, and progressives . . . used their term politically correct ironically, as a guard against their own orthodoxy in social change efforts. <1><2><11> Hence, it is a popular English usage in the underground comic book Merton of the Movement, by Bobby London, while ideologically sound an alternative term, followed a like lexical path, appearing in Bart Dickons satirical comic strips. <1><12> Moreover, Ellen Willis says: . . . in the early 80s, when feminists used the term political correctness, it was used to refer sarcastically to the anti-pornography movements efforts to define a feminist sexuality . <13>


It seems that the difference between the use of the term by the right and the left is that the left has used it in the spirit of constructive criticism. The right seems to lack the capability of self reflection to do the same. They turn everything into a bludgeon sooner or later. I used the term in the spirit of self reflection. This thread is about the use of the term "lady" which is simply not a pejorative unless one goes out of one's way to use it as such. Taking exception to the use of the term as a term and requiring through a rush to umbrage to manipulate others by scoring a rhetorical point is disingenuous and manipulative. It shows a lack of introspection peculiar to the political right.

Nevertheless, no offense was intended in the use of the term and if any was taken I apologize.

As an aside here is an interesting article in Salon I ran across the other day.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/09/01/...




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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #76
145. Right! What's wrong with good manners? Putting people at ease?
Say what you want around your peeps, but in public settings we should be polite.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
48. especially bad when preceding their occupation
"lady cop", "lady doctor", "lady Senator", etc.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Or college team name: 'Lady' Monarchs, 'Lady' Vols, 'Lady' etc. UGH!
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
53. My 2 cents for what it's worth.
I'm female and do not find the way you used lady offensive at all. I'm not offended when sports teams are called lady whatever either. I do believe people will go out of their way to be offended at nothing.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #53
59. 'Lady' Volunteers, makes them the 'marked' team. The men are the 'norm' and women not.
Just as there is skiing, and 'water' skiing.

Snow skiing is the norm and does not have to be 'marked' as 'water' skiing does.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #59
85. Somehow I don't see being marked as lady makes it offensive.
Not being normal doesn't mean it's below normal. It means it's different. By putting water in front of skiing doesn't make it less, it makes it different. The same as lady does in front of the sports team.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. uh, "different" FROM WHAT?
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 01:16 PM by iverglas

Gosh, could it be -- different from THE NORM, the norm being MALE?

Was everybody here really born in 1995?


Do you all really not get the point -- that THE NORM for "human" has always been defined as MALE, with FEMALE being NOT the norm, i.e. DEVIANT?

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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #88
91. Yes different from the male team that use to be the norm.
Your problem is you see it as DEVIANT! It certainly use to be male as the normal especially when we are talking about sports teams. The good thing is it isn't that way anymore, and therefore we need the adjective lady, or special or better if you like. Certainly not DEVIANT.

Your irrational outrage is somewhat comical. I hope you don't have true problems in your life. I don't see how you could handle them.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. here's the answer

I don't give a flying fuck what you think, about my "irrational outrage", which is neither merely because you say it is, or my life, or pretty much anything else.

I long since stopped caring what people who don't know what they're talking about or bother to educate themselves think about anything.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. I expected as much.
You have already expressed your "Flying Fuck"feelings (say that three times fast)regarding anyone that doesn't share your opinions. You are right about one thing you are much older than I am, hopefully you will realize things have changed and women do not need to take offensive over such trivial things as the word "lady".
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #93
168. It's impossible to have a rational discussion with people spouting irrational tirades.
Every time a poster tries to be reasonable you call them a "evil misogynist, racist, sexist, homophobic monster!!!".
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #168
189. I don't recall inviting you to any kind of discussion
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 06:24 PM by iverglas

I specifically said I was not interested in ANY "discussion" with know-nothings and cretins.

Your point?



typo fixed
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
109. fine, then if it HAS to be differentiated, we'll call the women's team
the Volunteers, and the boys team the Gentlemen Vols.

satisfied now?

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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Fine with me.
As a matter of fact I have heard them call volleyball teams that are males, the male volleyball team, because the norm there is usually female. When it comes to sports it's simply an adjective. As to the snarky "satisfied now" comment, I am not the one with the outrage here.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #110
130. fine with you means jack shit, since it's just not done...
using male volleyball team is not the same as Vols and Lady Vols.

besides, the ball has no gender (look at the balls on that volleyball!) ... it would be the men's volleyball team

:rofl:
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #53
147. That's what I'm getting from these posts too.
"I do believe people will go out of their way to be offended at nothing." It's a very "do as I say" crowd. They demand respect but give none.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
55. yes. and "women" should be "womyn"
and there should be a "herstory" to complement "history"
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gbate Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Tell me you're joking. Please.
As a woman, I find the whole "womyn" thing hilariously stupid.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. not joking
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 12:33 PM by iverglas

Mocking. There's a difference.

Mocking a big fat old straw thing, of course. It's so easy to defeat adversaries not present.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
56. Every word in the English language is patronizing and...
offensive to someone, somewhere.

Even "English," as in "English language" is offensive, harking back to the days of landed aristocracy, empire, and slavery.

Since it is now impossible in this country to address anyone by any name, title, or term for risk of mortal offense and blood libel, I have decided to communicate only in French and Romanian. The fact that I do not speak French or Romanian is not a liability, since that means I cannot possibly offend in those languages, either.

(If that doesn't work, I shall use hand signals to communicate. Foolproof, as I will only need one finger on one hand.)



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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
64. I prefer the term "broad.'
:hide:
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. I actually used 'dames' the other day! Context is everything...nt
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. 'Dames' means 'ladies' in Spanish. Ladies & gentlemen is
damas y caballeros

I should have been offended for being called a horse-man.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
103. What about all the songs that use "lady" in the title and lyrics?
Alabama - Lady Down On Love

Oh Lady Be Good-Ella Fitzgerald

Tom Jones - She's a Lady

I never considered it "patronizing," but then I'm a guy! :D
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #103
112. Context is everything. The term is not, in and of itself, patronizing. nt
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #112
120. uh

I seem to remember this as one of the sickest expressions of narcissism I'd ever heard, and somebody is presenting it here as some innocuous use of the word "lady"??


Tom Jones - She's a Lady Lyrics

Well she's all you'd ever want
She's the kind they'd like to flaunt and take to dinner
Well she always knows her place
She's got style, she's got grace, she's a winner.

She's a Lady. Whoa whoa whoa, she's a Lady
Talkin' about that little Lady, and the Lady is mine.

Well she's never in the way
Something always nice to say, Oh what a blessing.
I can leave her on her own
Knowing she's okay alone, and there's no messing.

She's a Lady. Whoa whoa whoa, she's a Lady
Talkin' about that little Lady, and the Lady is mine.

Well she never asks for very much and I don't refuse her
Always treat her with respect, I never would abuse her.
What she's got is hard to find, and I don't want to lose her.
Help me build a mansion from my little pile of clay. Hey, hey, hey

Well she knows what I'm about,
She can take what I dish out, and that's not easy.
Well she knows me through and through,
She knows just what to do, and how to please me.

She's a Lady. Whoa whoa whoa, she's a Lady
Talkin' about that little Lady, and the Lady is mine.

Yeah yeah yeah, She's a Lady
Listen to me baby, She's a Lady
Whoa whoa whoa, She's a Lady
And the Lady is mine

Yeah yeah yeah, She's a Lady
Talkin' about this little Lady
Whoa whoa whoa whoa
And the Lady is mine

Yeah yeah, She's a Lady
And the Lady is mine.



Christ, that's the sort of person who goes on television reality shows to get the adoration he needs, and then kills the woman who decides she doesn't want to know her place, take what he dishes out, or be his.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #120
134. +1000
that's exactly what i always wanted to be ... a lady, just like in the song.

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

i'd rather be a woman. and i'm doing a damn fine job of it.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #120
142. I've always HATED that song. Right up there with "Having My Baby." nt
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
104. Only if the lady is breatfeeding at Olive Garden
Oh yeah! Another firestorm for the records! Not as good as pit bulls, but better than corn-flake chicken recipes....
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
107. Patronizing
in the same circumstances but with a man, would you (be honest) call him "gentleman"? probably not.

what's wrong with just calling a woman a woman? a person? how about just saying "Rachel is very intelligent, but i think she's wrong on this issue."

and ladies are not always treated the way an adult woman would be. you have to give up too much to "earn" the "title" of lady. i never wanted to be a lady, i'm happy being a woman.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. I'm VERY polite, but I'm no lady. We catch a lot of shit for not being ladies.
Gee whiz, Susan Boyle says 'fuck' a few times and London Bridge falls down.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #111
119. "Gee whiz"??

Forsooth! Wash that mouth out with lavendar soap. ;)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #107
196. too obviously --
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 06:43 PM by iverglas

If Rachel Maddow had been a man, the comment would have been "HE'S AN INTELLIGENT MAN".

Not "bright". Children and subordinates are bright.

(Please let us not forget that it was the PHRASE to which I objected, not merely the word "lady", even if our OP has declined to figure that out.)

And not "gentleman". That word is reserved for very specific contexts and meanings: as a form of address (in which "ladies", as in "ladies and gentlemen", is essentially neutral as well); and to refer to a very particular type of person/behaviour.

I mean seriously: how ridiculous would that sound? "He's a bright gentleman."

Too obviously, "lady" in this context is NOT the counterpart of "gentleman". It is the classic use of "lady" -- to distinguish a particular individual from what is conveyed by the word "woman".

To call someone a woman is, historically, to relegate her to a lower socioeconomic status than a lady, and ascribe lower morals to her than a lady has. I know this because I grew up in the 50s and 60s, and it simply was not acceptable to refer to "the woman" over there. "The lady", always.

And that is the usage in issue here. It may be unconscious, the person engaging in it may not know why they are doing what they are doing, but that is what it is. To refer to the individual in issue as a woman is to "disrespect" her; to refer to her a lady is to respect her.

And how obvious is it that this is disrespectful, precisely because it ascribes less than respectable qualities to a woman??

When has it ever been disrespectful to refer to a man as a man? Quite the contrary, I think.



Typos fixed
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
122. Why didn't you just say "she's a bright person" or "she's a bright woman"?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. urgh

It was the double ick, you see.

People really very seldom call men (male human beings of the adult variety) "bright". It's a term applied to people who are younger and of lower status than the speaker - or to make the object of the term appear to be of lower status.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. Well there's that. It's hard to keep up with all the regression these days
:spray:
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. What is the difference between "she's a bright lady" and "she's a bright woman"?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #124
126. was the poster saying something about a person and funneling their opinion and comments through
a POV based in gender?

If the speaker wouldn't do it regarding a man, there's not reason to do it regarding a woman.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. I understand the difference in "she's a bright person" and "she's a bright lady".
But you asked why they didn't say "she's a bright person" or "she's a bright woman". My question is what's the difference between woman and lady?

I understand your point, about not having to make gender a point at all. I just don't understand how woman is better than lady, and I certainly don't understand how the word lady is offensive.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #129
137. You don't understand the concept or the post or you wouldn't be asking this.
I am willing to try again to make it understandable and simple, but it would help if you read the words and actually tried to comprehend them.

(NOT SHOUTING):
If the speaker wouldn't do it regarding a man, there's no reason to do it regarding a woman.

If you need a guide for this sort of question, imagine the same/equivalent terms applied to a male.

Was the poster saying something about a person and funneling their opinion and comments through a POV based in gender?

In the example given of Olbermann, the poster probably would not say "he's a bright gentleman, but...." Probably wouldn't have mentioned he's "bright" at all. The word wouldn't even have been MAN it would have been his name, more like "I RESPECT Olbermann but....." or "Olbermann's smart but...."

As Iverglas has pointed out, BOTH the "bright" and "lady" are dismissive of the PERSON, the brilliant Rachel Maddow.

This OP is a violation of DU Rules and a call out and a BOGUS fail at pretending to "ask" a question that the OP was stubborn and obnoxious about in the original thread. :thumbsdown:

Iverglas is spot on:

"I'm not surprised that you would think it perfectly reasonable to characterize a grown woman with an obviously steel-trap mind as "bright". A word commonly used to describe children and protgs. I wonder how often people describe, oh, Keith Olbermann as "bright"?

" "Lady"? That one's patronizing by definition.

" You didn't need my thoughts. You just need to do a little of your own thinking.

"Not surprisingly, it's a term often applied to Hillary Clinton. (And, interestingly, Monica Lewinsky.) I wonder how often people described Bill Clinton as "bright". Or by some patronizingly euphemistic term like "lady" ... oh wait, there isn't one for men ... because there's just nothing wrong with calling a man a man."


I understand that some men still don't get it and some think that they are being respectful with that language. It's more respectful to try to actualy understanding what we're saying here. Trying to explain clearly. Treat women with the respect to recognize them as PEOPLE first. Not as a separate class defined by and compared to men.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. It would help if you would read my post and answer it not this crap your spewing.
A simple damn question. How is "bright woman" any less offensive than "bright lady". Again I understand your point regarding using the gender at all. I posted that already. Did I not make that simple enough?

As to being in violation of DU rules, I have seen several posts of Iverglas that is in violation as well.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #138
139. You don't understand. Read/Think it through and you might. Answer your own question.
Edited on Fri Sep-04-09 08:09 PM by omega minimo
THAT's when you understand.

Your attitude and hostility are totally FUCKED UP.

As is the bogus Authoritarian macho asshole demand that I answer THE WAY YOU DEMAND THAT I DO, instead of answering as I choose. Your question is NOT a mistake and will not lead to an understanding.

"...how woman is better than lady?" THAT REFLECTS THE FACT THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

I answered your question.
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newcriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #139
140. I did answer my own question. It isn't offensive.
If that's the best you got then I see no reason to further this. As to my attitude and hostility I suggest you read through this thread and see where that comes from. The women on this thread defending that the word "lady" is offensive our by far the most offensive people on this thread.

I see you edited it before I had the chance to answer. I hope you know this "authoritarian macho asshole" is a female, and you didn't answer the question. As a lady I wish you well.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. You didn't think about the answer. Which answers your shortsighted question
Which doesn't get a direct answer because it doesn't make any sense, it's a false premise. A false premise cannnot be answered.

Demanding that I answer the way you demand and using it as an excuse to ignore and dismiss how I answered, is "authoritarian macho asshole" behavior, no matter what the gender.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-04-09 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
132. "No class" includes missing the point on purpose, adding insults, OPing in another Forum to Call Out
the poster, violating DU Rules, feigning innocence and starting a poll to "ask" what you have stated in the original thread is your stubborn and obnoxious attitude.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #132
146. Obnoxious?
I'm only interested in other DUer's opinion. Any insults were in response to insults and innuendo made.

What point am I missing on purpose?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #146
151. Your disingenuousness
is belied by a look at the thread you continued this call out OP from. You stated there that you were stuck to your opinion. Why pretend you're open to others.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #151
152. I'm not calling out anyone.
I wanted to know what people thought.

And the responses have led to me confirming my original opinion. My calling RM a "bright lady" was not misogynistic, right-wing or hateful. I was politely disagreeing.

I acknowledge that the words can be patronizing but so can any word or phrase. I disagreed with other DUer and was attacked. So I decided to see what other people thought.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #152
153. THIS OP IS A CONTINUATION OF ANOTHER THREAD AND A CALL OUT, FROM ANOTHER FORUM
AND you're gonna sit here and DENY IT? :wtf:

Of COURSE, "the responses have led to me confirming my original opinion," starting with the fact that you got away with this blatant bullshit AND YOUR'E STILL DENYING IT. :rofl:

AND you stated in the OTHER ORIGINAL THREAD that you had your mind made up.

What a load of crap.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #153
157. Yes, I am because I don't think it is.
I'm interested in what other people think and I'm getting a lot of fascinating responses.

Thanks for chiming in! ;-)
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #157
169. You're not interested in what other people think.
You're interested in having your smug attitude reinforced. You've already said so.

:thumbsdown:

Let us know when you respect women enough to make a statement about Rachel Maddow with equivalent wording you would use for Keith Olbermann.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #169
175. Then why did I post this poll?
Seems like a lot of trouble if I don't care what people think.

If KO had said the same thing as RM I would have called him a bright gentleman. Gentleman and lady can be polite equivalents of each other.

Oh and I do respect women. Politeness is part of respect.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. Nonsense.
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 03:08 PM by omega minimo
All of it. And I've already commented on the same points. And you're repeating nonsense.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #176
206. I don't think I am.
I'm actually wondering why in an earlier post you implied I don't respect women. Why do you think that?
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
148. If said with respect, then no.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
150. I call my female friends "lady friends", nobody thinks it's patronizing.
:shrug:
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #150
154. So?
Did you read any of the comments here or in the thread this Call Out OP derived from and learn anything?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #154
160. Nobody I know considers it offensive unless used in an obviously rude way
Like an adult saying "hey lady". Around here. "Lady friend" is a perfectly acceptable term when referring to women friends, saying "woman friends" or "female friends" seems stilted or impolite.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #160
172. That's not what this thread or the previous thread
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 03:09 PM by omega minimo
were about. It was a specific instance, which the OP came to the Lounge to continue and Call Out the other poster. Read iverglas or my comments on that here and see what you think about the real issue, regarding referring to Rachel Maddow based on gender and not professionalism.

It's dismissive language, patronizing, setting a different standard for women and that's how this OP used it in the Gun Forum thread. When he got called on it, he came over here to start something up and violate DU Rules, make himself feel like a fine gentleman.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #172
181. Hence "Context is everything".
Any word can be misused by a jerk to dismiss and belittle others. So should we never say anything ever?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. "dismissive language, patronizing, setting a different standard for women and that's how this OP.."
Why are you more interested in arguing than understanding?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #183
184. I'm not the one refusing to understand things.
I''m not arguing, I'm stating linguistic facts. You are dismissing them for no reason, OM. I'm trying to be reasonable and you come and accuse me of misogyny and supporting Orwellian Newspeak. It's frankly offensive and insulting.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #184
185. I did no such thing
"I'm trying to be reasonable and you come and accuse me of misogyny and supporting Orwellian Newspeak."

:evilfrown: your false accusations are "frankly offensive and insulting."
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #185
195. I'm simply trying to give a reasonable scientific explanation for word usage.
I guess that's my Asperger's showing again. :eyes:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #160
197. and there we have it

"Lady friend" is a perfectly acceptable term when referring to women friends, saying "woman friends" or "female friends" seems stilted or impolite.

It is "stilted" or "impolite" to say WOMAN.

I can think of few things more stilted than calling women LADIES, myself.

And as for it being impolite to call women women -- well, there we are. Kind of my whole point.

"Nice" words have to be used to refer to women. Because being a woman just isn't quite nice.

Do see my post 196. Your demonstration of the entire point is much appreciated.

By the way, "lady friend" is actually a somewhat archaic term used to refer to the object of one's romantic interest. I have never in my life heard someone born since 1950 refer to his "Platonic" female friends collectively as "lady friends". How absurd. And talk about yer stilted ...

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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #150
158. Because you know them well enough to say, in your judgment, they're 'ladies'. It's fine. nt
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
155. You really have to be careful with a word so abused as "lady"
A few examples:

"Good evening, milady (or my lady)" - honorific
"I think she's a really nice lady" - simple reference, though person would be just as good as lady. I don't know anyone who would take offense here though.
"Hey lady!" - Dismissive, rude, condescending, etc.
I'm sure you can think of many more examples.

I think your usage here was mostly innocuous, but try and apply my SO's favorite rubric to your statement: If Rachel Maddow were a guy, would you have said the following?
"He's a bright guy, but he's wrong on this issue. He's a fighter but he's willing to give up this right? Doesn't make sense."

Strangely enough, when I look at the sentence above and compare it to your original, I think your usage of lady is perfectly fine. It's your second sentence that makes me blink a little in comparison, since I don't think I personally would ever refer to a guy by saying "he's a fighter, but..."

But I'm just talking about me here. YMMV.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. If RM was a fella, I would have used that sentence,
"He's a bright guy, but he's wrong on this issue. He's a fighter but he's willing to give up this right? Doesn't make sense."

Or gentleman. That's one of the reason I made this poll. I am curious on other people's opinions.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #156
177. the equivalent for "bright guy" is "bright gal." You might have thought twice or even once
about calling Rachel Maddow a "gal" on DU, even in the Gun Forum.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #177
211. I said or gentleman,
Did you finish reading the post?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #211
213. Playing word games
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 03:49 AM by omega minimo
doesn't make your logic any less full of crap. Claiming what you would have said and then emphasizing "or GENTLEMAN" as if. AS IF!! :rofl:

End your EPIC FAIL while you still may, bub. :rofl:
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #213
214. I'm not seeing anything new from you.
BTW, another question you've refused to answer, in an earlier post you implied I don't respect women. I asked why you thought that. Will you answer this time?
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
170. Yes, context is everything
But the way you used it was just fine, by me.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
186. This thread's not gone well.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #186
187. This thread is a Continuation from Another Forum and a Call Out and should have been locked
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Elmore Furth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
198. The way Jerry Lewis said it -- it was more of a screech-threat like a crow
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
199. It's up to the person being addressed, and whose business is it, anyway, EXCEPT the person being
Edited on Sat Sep-05-09 08:27 PM by 1Hippiechick
addressed? If she is offended, she can do one of two things: (1) ignore it; or (2) speak up. It will vary from person to person - can't believe there have been this many comments on this question! Where am I?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #199
200. well, you could always read the thread

and get a clue as to what the discussion was about.

No one was being addressed.

Rachel Maddow was referred to as a "bright lady" by someone who wished to discount her opinion about something.

Does that help at all?

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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #200
202. I read the original post - poster amazed at being jumped on about the word "lady" but would not have
been surprised had the attack been on the word "bright" - glanced down the thread - only read the one-liners....and I am still amazed at the number of responses....
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #202
215. good for you

An invaluable contribution to the discussion.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #200
204. I'm not discounting her opinion.
I'm disagreeing with her. Is that not allowed?
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #200
209. "Rachel Maddow was referred to as a "bright lady" by someone who wished to discount her opinion..."
"Rachel Maddow was referred to as a "bright lady" by someone who wished to discount her opinion about something.

"Does that help at all?"


:spray: :rofl:


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #199
208. Rachel Maddow has no interest in speaking to the OP about referring to her as a "bright lady, but.."
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1Hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #208
218. ???
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-05-09 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
210. it can be
bet you think about it before you use it again :rofl:
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Generic Brad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
219. Only if the lady is a tramp. n/t
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