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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:52 AM
Original message
Aren't pain doctors supposed to treat PAIN
I'm with this doctor who has me on patch morphine, (the lowest dose) and I am sitting here with my hand hurting my feet knees upper and lower back hurting.

The only thing he seems to want to treat me for is my neck because the mri had some bad things to say. I just started to exercise and I am doing things that are supposed to make my body strong so I don't need the frigging surgery he wants me to have.

I want to get a job but I can't with the pain I have now.

I don't give a frig if I become addicted to pain killers. There are treatments out there to fix that. Plus I've been addicted to benzodiazapines, (Xanax) for years and I no worse for it.

Oh and I have arthritis.

How do I get this banana head to realize that the world is not going to end if he gives me more drugs?

btw - typing this hurts my neck, back and hands
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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
1. Try Mary Jane
Opiods are iffy in relieving arthritis pain .
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Ibuprofen ripped my stomach after years of taking them. I take aspirin
with food sometimes but he freaks out about that too.
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Connonym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. you might need to find a new banana head
is it your family doctor? Have you tried a pain clinic?
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. This IS a pain clinic!
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Connonym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Oh sheesh!
that really sucks. I know a lot of people with chronic pain issues but not a single one has adequate pain control. Doctors are so frakking afraid of addiction that they're willing to let patients suffer. They don't appear to be concerned with quality of life. Sorry you're getting the run around.
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supernova Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. MDs & Pain
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 08:30 AM by supernova
They also have the DEA breathing down their necks.

If they are perceived to be writing too many scripts to too many people for narcotics, they can get their licenses pulled. So it isn't just that they don't want to treat you or that they don't understand your pain levels (well some ARE just lunkheads) but it also has to do with the gov't enforcement.

A lot of chronic pain patients have to take mega doses of stuff that would addict or make others OD. So, they're in kind of a bind.

Sorry I don't have anything more helpful to say. :-(

edit: I'm mean 'license' to prescribe narcotics specifically, not their MD license.

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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. What supernova said
It's not the doc's fault, it's the DEA and the "war on drugs". In defense of the DEA, however,they do have to stop the asshats who set up "clinics" and have people line up to get scripts for Oxycontin, etc, without an exam. Just pay up and get your prescription.

But there needs to be some sanity around this issue. Sadly, if you're terminal, you'd at least have the option of going to a hospice physician, who is pretty much exempt from DEA scrutiny. As long as someone else saying the patient has 6 mos or less to live, then the hospice doc has free reign to prescribe adequate pain control.

The person suggesting cannabis might not be too far off base, but even if some miracle legalized pot, docs would never recommend it for arthritis (even if it might help) because they would worry about disorientation and the potential for falls for arthritic patients.

Hope you find some relief.
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. From what I've read, pain clinics are often not that great either.
I didn't know they had a patch for morphine -- I've heard of Fentanyl patches, but not morphine.

If it's the lowest dose of Fentanyl, the 25 mcg, that's what they recommend people be started on if they were taking between 30 and 60 mg of Oxycodone daily (oxycodone and hydrocodone are fairly close in potency). But even their prescribing information states that the dose may not be sufficient for half of the patients out there when they are first converted over to it -- that the table is conservative to avoid overdosing a patient on the first patch.

How long have you been on it? They don't recommend upping the dosage on Fentanyl for at least 3 days after you first start it, and then only every 6 days thereafter until titrated.

Also, a good pain doctor will realize that you have good days and bad days, will titrate you up to a constant dosage of what you need on good days, and will give you breakthrough meds for your bad days.

I wish you the best of luck here.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I thought Fentanyl was morphine. It said opioid so I thing that was the same thing
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. I was on Lortab 7.5 or 10 I can't remember . I don't know the difference
Edited on Thu Aug-14-08 08:19 AM by Maraya1969
between the 350 mg's and the 7.7 mg.s.

I've been on 25 mcg patch for about 3 weeks.
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
19. FYI: Fentanyl is not hydrocodone
Hydrocodone is the active ingredient in drugs like Lortab, Lorcet, Vicodin, Vicoprofen, etc. It is not nearly as potent as oxycodone--in fact, an oxycodone drug like Percocet (with Tylenol added) is a Schedule II drug, while hydrocodone drugs like Lorcet (with Tylenol added) are only Schedule III drugs.

Fentanyls are Schedule I drugs. Perhaps you were thinking of hydromorphone instead? Hydromorphone is the chemical name for Dilaudid--a drug that is very similar in potency to fentanyl.

I've had a lot of pain issues, and several extended hospital stays and surgeries, so I've become sadly familiar with the details of various pain medications. I had a horrible reaction to morphine once, so I'm one of the people who get treated with Dilaudid or Fentanyl instead (most recently, due to kidney stones.)

Just didn't want anyone to be confused. :hi:
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Fentanyl is Schedule II, I assure you.
If it were schedule I, it would not be able to be prescribed by anyone. Heroin, LSD, etc, those are Schedule I. Schedule IIs are drugs with great potential for abuse but some medical use. Even cocaine is Schedule II, because it has use as a local anesthetic, particularly for eye surgery. (The placement of cannabis as Schedule I is concerning to many people because of this -- some feel it has a legitimate medical use and should therefore be Schedule II.)

I've taken both Percocet (which is schedule II) and Loracet (which is schedule III), and a 10 mg Loracet gives me the same relief as a 10 mg Percocet. For some people oxycodone (Percocet) is stronger, perhaps I'm not one of them. My father, too, gets better relief from a Vicodin than a Percocet of the same dosage. Then again, we're weirdos. :) (He has DDD and really ought to get a fusion in his lower back according to his doctor, but he wants to avoid it as long as possible -- he takes methadone as his mainstay of pain relief, and asked his doctor to switch him from Perocet for breakthrough over to Loracet/Vicodin because it works better for him.)

I was referring to dosage equivalence, not necessarily strength of relief, however. Morphine is considered a very strong drug and is not given to someone with a just toothache. But orally, it takes 60 mg of morphine to be equivalent to 30 mg of hydrocodone or 20 mg of oxycodone according to this chart. It takes 200 mg of Demerol orally to equal 60 mg of morphine or 30 mg of hydrocodone or 20 mg of oxycodone. (Both morphine and demerol are poorly absorbed orally. IV or IM take much less drug to be more effective.)

http://www.musc.edu/pharmacyservices/medusepol/OpioidAnalgesicConversionChart.pdf

Fentanyl is dosed in the micrograms -- while hydromorphone (Dilaudid) is dosed in the milligrams. A 0.1 mg IV dose of fentanyl is equal to 1.5 mg of hydromorphone IV, or 7.5 mg of hydromorphone orally.

But no, I was not suggesting that hydrocodone and Fentanyl were the same. Most people who are started on Fentanyl, however, were previously using an oral pain regimen. The Fentanyl patch's prescribing instructions specifically say that no one should be started on the patch who was not opiate-tolerant, and gives a conservative equivalence table for conversion over to Fentanyl patches. They recommend people who were on 30-67 mg of an oxycodone-containing drug to start out at the 25mcg level because each person will absorb the medication transdermally a bit differently than others, and because of Fentanyl's potency, it's a really bad thing to OD on.

And with different body chemistries, the conversion charts are not always accurate. Some people get absolutely no relief with one particular opiate even at high levels (although they may experience cognitive effects), but get very good pain relief with a different medication, even at the low end of that particular medicine's recommended dosing. One medicine even at a very low dose for it may cause too many cognitive side effects to continue, while another will relieve the pain without making them drowsy or dizzy. That's why pain management doctors really have to listen to their patients and work with their patients to find the best medication *for that patient*.

I'm sorry you had a bad reaction to morphine. When my grandmother broke her hip, they gave her a morphine shot and she started having a bad allergic reaction. So when we had to take her into the ER when she developed shingles, they had to give her Demerol. (They actually almost gave her two shots of it -- she was in awful pain, and one nurse had ran off to get the medication but had to take care of another patient. The doctor actually administered the first shot. Then that nurse came back in with another needle, and she was VERY happy we told her that Granny'd already gotten one shot! An overdose is not something to play with for an 85 year old lady!)

As for myself, the only pain medicines I've had allergies to have been NSAIDS. I broke out when I was given Etodolac once (when I fell down the stairs and sprained my ankle), and when I dislocated my kneecap they gave me an injection of Toradol, and the itching very quickly turned into anaphalyaxis. (Really sucks, too, because I've talked to many people who swear by Toradol, especially with Zofran for migraines.) I also broke out when I attempted to take Aleve. So now my doctor says I shouldn't even take Advil (even though I've never had problems with it). I instead pay the huge copay for Celebrex -- but at least it works, and works well. I'm really thankful that I don't need narcotic pain medication on a daily basis. Celebrex, Zanaflex, and massage therapy are the best things I've found for my pain. (I've only got fibromyalgia and arthritis in the joints that I have injured, nothing serious like kidney stones or back issues, thank God!)

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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Pain Management Centers around here are so careful about pills...
I was prescribed a month's worth of 5 mg. hydrocodone and I had to pee in a cup at my next appointment to prove that I wasn't taking too much of it. I also had to return the unused portion of the prescription. I don't have a history of drug abuse of any kind, but they're so careful about addiction to pain medication that I wish I could have surgery instead and deal with the problem once and for all. I hate the fact that I'm assumed to be guilty at "hello".
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
11. Getting addicted to pain pills is such dangerous territory.
I am sure your doc is concerned about that. But, I do hope you find a way to manage your pain! :hug:
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I understand why they require pee in a cup...
I really do. I just hate, hate, hate doing it.
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Shell Beau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. How often do you have to do it?
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. At every appointment. (About every three weeks). nt
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Every three days I put a new one on. But I'm increasing it a little bit
to 1.5 days.

What is the difference between benzodiazapine addiction and pain pill addiction? Because I have been on benzos all my live and the doctors want me to stay on it, (bad panic attacks since I was 17)

I don't give a shit about being addicted to benzos. I'll take them for the rest of my life and I don't see the big deal. They have actually saved my life because I could never have survived all these years with the type of anxiety I've had.
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Non, no, NO, Shell, you don't understand. People with chronic pain do NOT,
as a group, tend to become ADDICTED to opioids. There's something about chronic pain that rewires your brain, so there's not only no addiction, but also LISTEN TO ME: no "getting stoned" or other pleasurable reaction to the narcotics.

What happens to Chronic Pain People is that they become DEPENDENT on opioids.

In other words, they need to take them to maintain a normal life.

Just, EXACTLY, like diabetics are DEPENDENT on insulin.

But does ANYONE, including doctors, the DEA, and society in general condemn diabetics for being dependent on insulin?

No, they don't.

Sorry for sounding so harsh, but it's clear that you've subscribed to the bullshit that has become "common knowledge," even though it's NOT true.

Redstone
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panhead1961 Donating Member (363 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
14. Masking Pain through Pain Management is not treating the problem
Have you noticed the new drugs like Lirica <sp> and such. It's all due to are failing medical system. Good Luck
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Unfortunately in some cases the cure is worse than the disease.
For example, back surgery.

My man was one of the lucky ones. He has both cervical and lumbar fusions. He was given no chance to agree to the surgery -- he was in a coma at the time, the auto accident was that bad. As it was, he had to learn to walk again -- over a year of intense physical therapy to achieve that. He still experiences daily pain, and there is nothing else they can do to "fix" him. But he's able to walk. He's able to manage.

But many people who have back surgery end up worse than they were before the surgery. I've known several who are completely disabled now, after the surgery that was supposed to "fix" them.

Pain Management is exactly that. You're right, it's not a cure, but it's not designed to be either.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. My cousin is the exact same type of doctor that mine is except she is in another
state. But I am following her advise to not have surgery unless it is completely necessary and to do exercises to increase my core muscles, (she recommends T-Tapp which is touted as a loss weight and look better cd but I could tell from the first cd that she wants to increase the muscles around the pelvic. She is really holistic so she is out of this problem.

Any was forget what I was going to say. My uncle took Embrel or Lyrica or something like that and went completely psychotic. It was horrible and my cousin was the one who linked the 2. He is ok now but I can tell you one thing. When he was younger he asked his doctor to cut off a few of his toes because they hurt so bad.

We had real bad genes in this family. Fortunately most of us are not going to procreate.
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LeftyFingerPop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. I sympathize, and I'm sorry...
I'm beginning to feel like the only reason physicians exist is for them to earn a decent living, while protecting themselves from getting sued.

I'm starting to wonder which is worse...the potential for pain medication addiction vs. the deteriorating lifestyle that pain causes.

I suggest you find a doctor that will help you manage your pain.

Also, try to close the "pain gateway" as often as you can by distracting yourself from it in whatever way possible.

Best of luck to you.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thank you Philboy
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
23. Wlecom to the nightmare that we Pain People inhabit. It's not a nice place, and I hope
you'll be able to escape from it one day.

Redstone
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-14-08 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Yea I know you' ve had your problems too Redstone. My best wishes
to you too. :hug:
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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-15-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. So you forgive my lousy spelling, as I knew you would. Hey, please, do NOT listen
to the people who say you should worry about "addiction to narcotics" (see my post above about addiction versus dependence); I'll say it again: The same people who condemn Chronic Pain People for being dependent on pain medicine to be able to function every day would NEVER condemn a diabetic for depending on insulin, would they?

Remember that argument. And get better if you can, OK?

Redstone
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