Fundies angry about Darwin fish and respond according to programming.

[Deep13]

http://www.rr-bb.com/showthread.php?t=42704

Pro-science education enthusiasts who push back against Creationism are pissing off Fundy idiots. The response? You guessed it, censorship of dissenting views.

"Maybe it's just me, but something about those (Darwin fish) just makes me want to take some kind of action as soon as I see one. I always try to tract the vehicles that have those on their bumper, but I couldn't do that in this situation."

Huh, how nice. Presumably the writer means "track" which implies stalking and intimidation.

Post #8 explains why this drawing is so offensive, apparently forgetting how they have sought to undermine public education and public policy.

"he already ticked her off by drawing a darwin fish

"seriously, darwin fish was meant to offend christians. They could have invented their own symbol for their belief, but instead they took a christian fish and turn it into a darwin fish. It is their way of saying they have hatred for creations/christians and that they rather believe in evolution/no God."

[B3Nut]

1. Nah, he means "tract"

as in place a tract, probably in the case of this shining arc-light (ha) a Chick Tract, under the windshield wiper. Fundies love leaving tracts all over the place, I'm guilty of leaving a few myself back in my Fundie Daze(sic). The longer I'm away from that worldview the more absolulely mind-fuckingly deranged it all looks...

[Deep13]

6. Oh, duh, of course.

Forgot about those. I get them under my mailbox flag every now any again.

[ChickMagic]

38. Same story for me

I asked how a coworker was - just chit chat - and she
said she was washed in the blood of Jesus. I couldn't
help it. I said, "Ew - that's gross".

[Hand]

50. OUTSTANDING!!!

:yourock:

[oedura]

56. Washed in the blood of Jesus?

I wouldn't even know WTF that means. Is that a good day? A bad day? Is she telling you she has to do her laundry?

Seriously, WTF?

[Duer 157099]

60. I think it's code for on the rag

Still, ewwwwww, and why get Jesus' name involved in it??? :rofl:

[oedura]

61. "I think it's code for on the rag..."

I'd pay good money to see the look on that woman's face if he'd asked her if that's what she meant.

:7

[Duer 157099]

65. "Oh, so it's that time of the month is it? Like some Midol?"

Yeah, I think I'll try that if someone ever says that to me.

[ThomCat]

58. Ginbarn, you're absolutely wonderful!

:rofl:

:hug:
I hope you're doing well. I think about you often and send you good vibes.

[ironflange]

51. I keep finding fracts in men's rooms

It makes it easy to give them the treatment they deserve. . .

[ThomCat]

59. If only you could give them back afterward...

:rofl:

[ironflange]

80. oops. . . "tracts" not "fracts"

This:




Not this:




Sorry. Unlike the first one, I could look at the second one all day.

[MissMillie]

2. Well,

would they be fundies if they weren't angry about something?

(And no, I don't mean all Christians, I mean the fundamentalist, freeper type...)

[Brigid]

3. I surely doesn't take much . . .

to tick off fundies of any stripe, does it? *shakes head*

[hunter]

4. Silly Fundies. They think it's a fish.

They should be happy the Darwinists are advertising it as such.

[Deep13]

5. Um, why what is it?

:shrug:

[unpossibles]

9. a vagina. A sacred vagina, even

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsvesica.htm

Silly Christians. If they were more honest about their own borrowed symbolism, I may have joined. Worshipping a sacred vagina doesn't sound so bad.

[Deep13]

13. Maybe I should get a plain Jesus fish and put it on vertically.

It is odd for such a derivative religion to be so possessive about its symbolism.

[laconicsax]

81. Lots of people do that. You've probably seen them--they look like this:

[jmowreader]

24. It's a secret code...

The story I heard, which may be totally apocryphal, is that back in the days of the Caesars when entertainment at large festivals included feeding Christians to lions a Christian who wanted to find out if a new acquaintance was also a Christian would draw a semicircle in the dirt with a stick or something. If the new acquaintance turned the semicircle into a fish, he was someone you could talk about Jesus with and not have to worry about becoming tomorrow's star attraction.

They never said anything about the Praetorian Guard finding this out and using it to catch Christians.

[Deep13]

26. Yeah, that's the official story.

What I what to know is where they stole the symbol from. Seriously, why a fish? One possible explanation I heard is that it was lifted from a pagan sea god. As was customary in the early church, the Christians were imitating the local traditions in an effort to ease the ousting of the old gods in favor of the new. This account also states that a bishop's miter is a fish head and the tails of it are the scales in imitation of decorative garments used in pagan festivals. I don't know if any of this is true, but it is at least as likely as the secret-handshake theory.

[Sock Puppet]

29. here's an interesting answer to that question

http://www.atheists.org/christianity/fish.html

For many pop-culture Christians, the "fish" decal on the back car bumper, or attached to a key chain or door is a symbol of their religion, and a feel-good statement about Jesus Christ. Early Christians used the fish as a recognition sign of their religion. It is also identified as the "Ichthus," an acronym from the Greek, "Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter," or "Jesus Christ the Son of God, Saviour." Oxford English Dictionary (C.E.) defines "Ichthyic" as "of, pertaining to, or characteristic of fishes; the fish world in all its orders."

But contemporary Jesus worshippers might be surprised, even outraged, to learn that one of their preeminent religious symbols antedated the Christian religion, and has its roots in pagan fertility awareness and sexuality. Barbara G. Walker writes in "The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects," that the acronym pertaining to Jesus Christ was a "rationale invented after the fact... Christians simply copied this pagan symbol along with many others." Ichthys was the offspring son of the ancient Sea goddess Atargatis, and was known in various mythic systems as Tirgata, Aphrodite, Pelagia or Delphine. The word also meant "womb" and "dolphin" in some tongues, and representations of this appeared in the depiction of mermaids. The fish also a central element in other stories, including the Goddess of Ephesus (who has a fish amulet covering her genital region), as well as the tale of the fish that swallowed the penis of Osiris, and was also considered a symbol of the vulva of Isis.

[jmowreader]

33. If it's not a Pagan fertility rite thing...

like everything else in that religion seems to be, maybe it has something to do with the Loaves and Fishes Miracle--where Jesus started out with one loaf of bread and two fish and ended up with 9000 meals. (The Fristians would be SHOCKED, I tell ya, to find out the real story is that Jesus gave his disciples some money and sent them to the store. Which would still be a good moralistic lesson--sacrifice, charity, all that--but it isn't as much fun as "Jesus snapped his fingers and 9000 meals came out." But it sounds SO much better than "Jesus reached into his bag, pulled out the Sacred Ginsu Knife, and sliced those two fish so thin you could SEE through the meat, I'm here to tell ya.")

I'm goin' for the Pagan thing. Why not? If you're TRYING to convert people, best to not try converting them very mucb.

[krispos42]

41. I think it's jut a stylized Greek letter 'alpha'

As in "alpha and omega"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_%26_Omega

[zingaro]

71. I can't answer definitively...

especially given all these other great offerings, but I want to add that a fish is also representational of the astrologic age of Pisces, which began just when BC flips to BCE. We are now in the Age of Aquarius - you know the song, I'm sure - but for the last two thousand years, have been in the Age of Pisces which is, of course, represented by a fish symbol.

[drmeow]

78. Jesus told his apostles (who were fisherman)

to stop fishing for fish and to be fishers of men. I think that is also part of where it came from.

[zanne]

46. I was taught that the fish was painted on buildings...

to let Christians know that they could worship there. I always thought that was a dumb idea. They had to know the Romans would catch on sooner or later. Anyway, I think the bumper Jesus Fish serves their purposes. They want to feel like they're oppressed. It must be nostalgia.

[ChickMagic]

39. It's the first amphibian

walking to land.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Stupid fundies. I'm a proud Darwin Fish Christian.

[RebelOne]

8. They got their panties in a bunch over this video the other day.

www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=62204

It's the one where Jesus is singing "I Will Survive" and then gets hit by a bus.

[Deep13]

15. I'll have to watch that later.

It is hillarious to watch sacred cows being butchered.

[madeline_con]

54. No sense of humor. At all. n/t

[Pierre.Suave]

10. The OP in that thread said something that caught my eye...

He/She said:

"Well, today I had to stay after my college ended in order to finish up a project that's due tomorrow (fun)."

What? His college ended? Does that mean he graduated? The school went under? They kicked him out?

I don't get it?



































I am sure, before you all jump on me, that he meant his classes ended for the day, but what an ODD wording.

[Deep13]

14. Actually, the whole school was raptured.

Yep, I read it on the internets.

[Pierre.Suave]

17. Wouldnt that be awesome

they left, and now the rest of us CAN LIVE IN PEACE!

[LeftyMom]

11. I guess that means he wouldn't like my T-Rex then.

http://evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html#2482

[LiberalEsto]

19. Those are wonderful

I can't decide which ones I want! Namaste, the UU chalice, Isis, the Flying Spaghetti Monster...

[kentauros]

25. I like the Namaste one as well.

Notice, too, that they have a magnetic backing to use, so you can interchange emblems according to your moods. I used to do that with velcro ;)

The alternate stick-on method I'd like to see is electrostatic, like used on those maintenance stickers auto shops like. Magnetic isn't much good on plastic bumpers.

[FloridaJudy]

40. Mine makes a statement too.

And it's delicious with horseradish.

[semillama]

69. The Freud one is the best. n/t

[unpossibles]

75. nice! they have some great ones!

love the T-Rex.

[baldguy]

12. "darwin fish was meant to offend christians"

No, it was meant to offend "christians" - people who proudly proclaim their love of Jesus but hate the human race and despise truth. But then, they're so easily offend-able.

[Connonym]

16. I was raised catholic and went to a catholic school

we learned evolution because we were taught that a great deal of the bible was meant to be taken as a parable and not the literal truth. I'm glad that if I had to be raised in a cult it was at least a cult that used some common sense (ok let's forget about transubstantiation for a minute k?)and a lot of compassion. I'm an agnostic now and I think there's a lot of evil in the catholic church but its essential dogma is very liberal.

[Sock Puppet]

28. OK, but it's not just the fundies who like the fish symbol.

Most Christians believe in evolution.

The symbol was used during early Christianity to identify fellow followers of Christ.

It is said that during the persecution of the early church, a Christian meeting someone new would draw a single arc in the sand. If the other person was a Christian, he or she would complete the drawing of a fish with a second arc. If the second person was not a Christian, the ambiguity of the half-symbol would not reveal the first person as a Christian.

To me, the Darwin fish seems kind of ignorant, or at least willfully ignorant of the fact that you're using a universal Christian symbol to mock only a fraction of that population. Seems like some other symbol could have been chosen.

[Deep13]

31. I see it as pushing back against efforts to encroach onto education and public policy.

In a broad sense it is also a reaction to the hostility that people have to rationality in general largely because of religion.

The problem I have with the most-Christians-accept-evolution is the fact that they apparently don't fully understand how evolution works. If they did, they would know that evolution absolutely precludes a creator. There might be some kind of god somewhere int he universe, but evolution proves that god isn't here and has never been here.

[PassingFair]

53. "Seems like some other symbol could have been chosen."

You think that pagans feel the same way about
"Christmas Trees" and the "Easter Bunny"?

:rofl:

[PVnRT]

66. Except that the people who do put it on their cars

tend to be the same in-your-face fire-and-brimstone assholes who feel it is their duty to convert everyone and act superior. The same people who want "alternatives" to evolution taught in school.

[laconicsax]

82. Yeah--that tiny 2/3 of the population.

Read this:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/14107/Third-Americans-Say-Evidence-Has-Supported-Darwins-Evolution-Theory.aspx

Highlights include:

-35% believe that evidence supports the theory of evolution--65% either don't believe so or are 'not sure.'
-45% believe that God created the human race in its present form within the last 10,000 years.

If you accept that roughly 75% of the US population identifies as Christian, 65% doesn't believe that evolution is supported by evidence, and 45% believes that everything was created in its present form within the last 10,000 years, then you have to accept that the fraction of Christians who deny reality is far from tiny.

You can reasonably figure that since the roughly 20% of the population that's non-religious likely uniformly denies creationism and, as a result, you can reasonably place 20% of those who accept the reality of evolution as non-Christian, implying that the 15% left are religious, and likely Christian.

This makes a likely proportion of Christians who accept evolution as fact somewhere in the neighborhood of 15%, leaving 85% who are willfully ignorant. That's hardly a tiny fraction.

[CottonBear]

18. Do the fundies realize that Darwian is buried in Westminster Cathedral in London

and that he is pictured on a British pound note? The beautiful and ancient cathedral is the most holy church of the Church of England. Charles Darwain along with Kings and Queens and many other highly honored Englishmen and women are buried there.

[baldguy]

20. Anglicans & Episcopalians are all pagan devil worshipers.

[CottonBear]

21. My bad. Of course, you're right.

:sarcasm:

Don't these fundie people have anything more imnportant to worry about than Darwain fish?

I have a WWTFSMD sticker on my car window (what would the flying spaghetti monster do?).
I'm sure it confuses the hell out of the fundies! ;)

[geardaddy]

30. I thought Canterbury was the seat of the C of E.

:shrug:

[CottonBear]

35. You may be correct. I assumed it was Westminster. I'll Google the answer.

Thanks for the tip.

The answer is: The most senior bishop of the Church of England is the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the archbishop and primate of the southern province of England, the Province of Canterbury.

edit: The correct name for Westminster is Westminstr Abbeynot Cathedral.

Structure

The British monarch, at present Queen Elizabeth II, has the constitutional title of "Supreme Governor of the Church of England". The Canons of the Church of England state, "We acknowledge that the Queen’s most excellent Majesty, acting according to the laws of the realm, is the highest power under God in this kingdom, and has supreme authority over all persons in all causes, as well ecclesiastical as civil." The Church is then structured as follows:

Primacy, e.g., Church of England. This is the area under the jurisdiction of a primate, e.g., the Archbishop of Canterbury. A primacy may consist of one or several provinces.
Province, i.e., York and Canterbury (these are the only two in the Church of England). This is the area under the jurisdiction of an archbishop, i.e. the Archbishops of Canterbury and York. Decision making within the province is the responsibility of the General Synod (see also above). A province is subdivided into many dioceses.
Diocese, i.e., Durham, Guildford, St Albans, more. This is the area under the jurisdiction of a diocesan bishop, i.e., the Bishops of Durham, Guildford and St Albans, and will have a cathedral. There may also be a small number of assisting bishops, some with the status of Suffragan Bishops, within the diocese who assist the diocesan bishop in his ministry, i.e., in Guildford Diocese, the Bishop of Dorking. The bishops will work with an elected body of lay and ordained representatives, known as the Diocesan Synod, to run the diocese. A diocese is subdivided into a small number of archdeanconry.
Archdeaconry, e.g., Dorking. This is the area under the jurisdiction of an archdeacon. It will consist of a number of deaneries.
Deanery, i.e., Lewisham, Runnymede. This is the area for which a rural dean is responsible. It will consist of a number of parishes in a particular region. The rural dean will usually be the incumbent of one of the constituent parishes. The parishes each elect lay (that is non-ordained) representatives to the Deanery Synod. Deanery Synod members each have a vote in the election of representatives to the Diocesan Synod.
Parish, this is the most local level, often consisting of one church building and community, although nowadays many parishes are joining forces in a variety of ways for financial reasons. The parish will be looked after by either a Vicar, Rector, Priest-in-Charge, Team Rector or Team Vicar, who may also be known as the Incumbent. The running of the parish church is the joint responsibility of the incumbent and the Parochial Church Council (PCC), which consists of the parish clergy and elected representatives from the congregation.
All rectors and vicars are appointed by patrons, who may be private individuals, corporate bodies such as cathedrals, colleges or trusts, or by the bishop or even appointed directly by the crown. No clergy can be instituted and inducted into a parish without swearing the Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty, and taking the Oath of Canonical Obedience "in all things lawful and honest" to the bishop. Usually the archdeacon inducts into the actual possession of the benefice property - church and parsonage. Curates are appointed by rectors and vicars, but if priests-in-charge then by the bishop after consultations with the patron. Cathedral clergy are appointed either by the Crown, the bishop, or by the dean and chapter themselves. Clergy officiate in a diocese either because they hold office as beneficed clergy, or are licensed by the bishop when appointed (e.g. curates), or simply with permission.


Primates

Archbishop of Canterbury, The Most Reverend Dr Rowan Williams.The most senior bishop of the Church of England is the Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the archbishop and primate of the southern province of England, the Province of Canterbury. He also has the status of Primate of All England and Metropolitan. He is also the focus of unity for the worldwide Anglican Communion of independent national or regional churches. The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr Rowan Williams has served as Archbishop of Canterbury since 2002.

The second most senior bishop is the Archbishop of York, who is the archbishop and primate of the northern province of England, the Province of York. For historical reasons he is referred to as the Primate of England. The Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr John Sentamu has served as the Archbishop of York since 2005.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. And just to confuse you more, there is a Westminster Cathedral too - that's Roman Catholic

and built in the 19th century, after RCs were allowed to start building churches in Britain again. That is where the head of the RC church in England is - the Archbishop of Westminster.

Westminster Abbey is very much connected with the country (hence burials or memorials to various famous people in it) and royalty - coronations take place there, and many royal weddings. Canterbury was the capital of the Kingdom of Kent, when Christianity was reintroduced to the area after the Anglo-Saxon invasions (which was before England was a single country - back then, London wasn't anything in particular). So Canterbury is the seat of the chief English archbishop on historical grounds.

[CottonBear]

72. Thanks for the information!

I have actually been to Westminster Abbey. I toured the Abbey and then attended a Wednesday evening service. It was lovely! The choir (boys and men) sang acapella and the Ugandan Commonwealth delegation was in attendance. We sat in the choir loft area in the middle of the Abbey. Beautiful!

[snooper2]

22. I created an account there..

but can't post yet :evilgrin:

[Deep13]

23. You have GOT to keep us updated on that!

You'll probably get TSed pretty quickly. Fundies and criticism: not so much.

[Fox Mulder]

27. I'm going to get one put on my car now...

just to piss them off.

[DarkTirade]

32. Ah, a forum with the name 'rapture' in the title. That explains it.

These are the same people who think the world revolves around them so much that the entire cosmos was arranged so that the rapture would happen in their lifetime. Of COURSE they think it's all about them. They think God himself designed the universe around them.

[redqueen]

34. *sigh*

[ChickMagic]

36. If I see them tracting me, I give them one of these

http://ffrf.org/nontracts/

There's nice ones and scientifically curt ones.
Someone offered me one when I went out for a
smoke and I said I'd take theirs if they would
take one of mine.

She actually cowered like it was the devil itself.
They scare me.

[ChickMagic]

37. Ahhhh

I got a warning that other people may see what I wrote.
Oooh, I'm sooo scared.

[Deep13]

42. Huh? Isn't that the whole purpose of writing?

:shrug:

[Arugula Latte]

43. Not only that...Jesus may see what you wrote. God, too.

Jesus and God are kinda like Elad and Skinner at that site. Go ahead, though. Go ahead and piss off Jesus and God. See how that works out for ya.

;)

[geardaddy]

44. I want them to make a magnet of this:

(Síla na Géige)

[zanne]

45. How do they get hatred from a fish? nt

[bertha katzenengel]

47. "Tract" is a verb now? Great.

:eyes:

[Kitty Herder]

64. It has been for a loooong time. That's the most common use of the word, isn't it? E.g. :

"The other day when I was tracting, these people sicked their rottweiler on me and it tore the seat out of my pants."

[auburngrad82]

48. So the Darwin fish is a rip off but the "Got Jesus?" bumper stickers are original thought?

If I were a carton of milk I'd sue the silly bastards...

[Va Lefty]

49. Hey Fundies...

[madeline_con]

52. "... makes me want to take some kind of action ..."

Shutting the fuck up is an action! }(

[madeline_con]

55. "... a christian fish ..."

I thought fish were agnostic. Who knew?

[DuaneBidoux]

57. I'll step "out of line." I have always believed those Darwin fish to be needlessly provocative.

To me, those objects are putting in direct competition the belief in any divine being and evolution: this is a position I believe to be a long term losing position for the scientific community.

The goal isn't (at least I don't believe it SHOULD be) to convert Bible believing Christians into atheists or agnostics. To me the goal should be to convert ANYONE into a belief in the scientific origins of humankind. By forcing people into an either/or situation you make it much more likely they will hold onto their sacred mythology and never accept even a modicum of science.

Darwin bumper stickers? Great! Taking a sacred Christian symbol and converting that sacred space with a resonance that offends? Counterproductive. And that is, in fact, my single biggest objection to the Darwin fish symbols. It is simply counterproductive for what the scientific community should be trying to achieve.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

62. But that doesn't apply to Flying Spaghetti Monster fish?

In view of the ridiculous fundy whining about scientific theory excluding their decidedly UNscientific Book of Genesis, I find the Darwin fish and all other evolutions amusing...even the Darwin Fish-eating Jesus Fish.

These people will convert to a belief in the scientific origins of humankind in the same numbers as people convert to a belief in mythological origins of life. Sometimes a stupid ignorant gene gets passed along and other times a child is born with the capability of reasoning and understanding scientific thought. And sometimes a person can see the logic of Darwin, but are too terrified of alienating themselves from their families, or even going to some "hell" to come out of the closet.

[DuaneBidoux]

73. But I haven't put one on the back of my car...and it isn't using another religion's sacred symbol.

I know,in general, what the audience is here at DU.

[DuaneBidoux]

74. Being able to see a modern/post modern world space has nothing to do with genes.

It has to do with fairly well developed and understood steps in personal psychological development that takes all individuals through a set of pre-given states of growth. Many, perhaps even most people, stop at the mythic/imperialistic stage. More, although probably not the majority, move into the rational/modern world space. A very few (and I do count myself among them) move beyond rationality and modernity into a transrational global-centric worldspace.

But in any case, making people defensive doesn't lubricate the wheels toward greater psychological evolution--in fact, it does just the opposite and makes them pull their "mind fortress" even more firmly around their already limited perspectives.

I can and do find the little evolution fish funny, ironic, and amusing, but if I am to truly convert someone to my position I must first see the world through his or her perspective, encompassing and attempting to understand and resonate with their ultimate fears, hopes, and concerns--and find a way within my worldspace to address those concerns. They do not find it amusing--they find it an attack. And like virtually any human at any state of personal development attack does not make you more receptive to growth.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

76. I can only partly agree...

Certainly some people will find variations on the fish logo insulting rather than an expression of an individual's varying viewpoint. There are surely some people who have found the Jesus fish and similar religious iconry offensive since long before they sprouted legs. Virtually everything is offensive to someone. Perhaps, if our goal is to avoid offending anyone, we should simply not display anything on our cars...this would, of course, have to include political preferences, and support or lack of support for the military.

Challenging people's beliefs is a necessary step in our evolution. When I am forced to defend my views, my perspective is either strengthened by the thought required to do so or altered by the provocation. Either result is beneficial since one of life's most apparent purposes is to grow and learn, not to "be right" all the time. The fish symbols and their various morphs are simply shout-outs to observers that there are different perspectives in the world.

While genes may not have everything to do with psychological development, I can't agree that they have nothing to do with it. Our psychology owes much to our physiology, both of which are, presumably, still evolving. Some people seemingly regress to those mythic/imperialistic stages, even after being raised with an awareness of scientific procedure. And others manage to overcome the limited perspectives they were raised with, and recognize the value of science.

[muriel_volestrangler]

67. But the fish symbol is either a hijack of an older pagan symbol

as detailed above, or a reference to when Christians were persecuted and had to have the secret 'ichthys' symbol. Either way, it's rather pretentious to resurrect it in modern times and claim it as 'sacred', so I think it's fair game for satire.

Satirising the cross would be another matter - that really has got a sacred meaning in Christianity.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

63. I like this version myself...

[semillama]

70. In the end, it all boils down to my favorite religious mantra:

"Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."

[vinylsolution]

77. Display 'em with pride!

See all these and many more, at : www.EvolveFISH.com

[kineneb]

79. if Darwin fish bothers them...I have a FSM "fish"

taped into the back window...to the Fundies, I wish to say something rude: Get a fucking sense of humor and get out of my face.
(sorry, kinda grumpy right now)