About suicide...

[redqueen]

Look... I know you may mean well, but stop. If you think that rationalizing the subject will help anyone seriously struggling with this issue, you simply do not understand.

Bullying someone... telling them they're cowards... or that they're "punking out" on their families... this will not help. It may, in fact, make it worse.

So please... if you know someone struggling with it, don't do those things. Empathize... be there for them... tell them how much you need them... how much you'll miss them and how much their loved ones need them and will miss them.

But for the love of God and all that's holy please for fuck's sake PLEASE do not bully them.

Thanks for listening.

[Tektonik]

1. People are implicating that suicide is brought on by cowardice?

Where the fuck has all our empathy gone? Most often than not, no one can rationalize suicide. Weighing in and making judgments on people who tragically took their lives are asshats and no better than republicans.

[redqueen]

11. I don't know...

I'm hoping this helps foster a better understanding.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

39. Implicating? I've read it spelled out loud many times. Here and elsewhere. It's almost a cliché.

And evil, mean cliché.

Apropos of nothing, I read somewhere that Jewish law mandates segregating deaths by suicide "out of holy ground" or something in the cemeteries. I don't like that custom either.

[GreenPartyVoter]

53. The old "boot strappers" are still around, amazingly enough.

[Iggo]

79. Actually, people are implying, and even outright saying...

...that the ACT is one of cowardice.

I don't know about all that, but I do know that my favorite platitude about the subject goes like this:

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside when I pass that useless piece of information on to others.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. Thanks

I always presume people have good intentions. That's just my experience in life.

I'm not at all sorry I started all this shit, but I had no idea it would turn into a lounge war. It's not like I used cornflakes on my chicken - I just tried to OD.

[redqueen]

7. You started it?

I didn't even know it was a war... I came in this morning to bitch about inconsiderate drivers, stumbled onto Redstone's thread, and saw red.

[MonkeyFunk]

9. heheh

now that I want to live, I like to stir shit.

[terrya]

16. I'm...speechless.

MrsG touchingly posted about her husband last night. You talked about your suicide attempt last night.

Look...I'm sure there are people here who think this subject is icky and depressing. It's interfering with the "Who's the biggest pev" stuff around here, after all...

But suicide is a subject that touches a lot of people. Be they having loved ones, or family members or friends...or yourself...committing suicide or attempting it. Or those, such as myself, who have contemplated it. I think this is an important subject....and should be talked about. Some people simply may not know how to deal with a loved one who is contemplating suicide. It's important to know how to deal with it...and to help to make sure, if possible, that loved one doesn't go through with it.

[MonkeyFunk]

24. .

:thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

92. My last summer when I was employed as a teacher, 6 of my students

committed suicide. One of them was also my patient. There is no cowardice involved, there is only deep sorrow. I saw my patient around 4PM the day he went home and hanged himself. I had no idea that he had any suicidal ideation at all and I was his fucking therapist. THAT's how distraught this child was, privately. He had come out of rehab and within an hour was doing coke again and couldn't face the guilt that he had 'failed' his family. His family and I were making plans to have him re-admitted when he hanged himself in the basement. One of 10 kids. A wonderful family. They even have my (married) last name. Loving, devoted, kind, you name it. And, they couldn't save their own child.

Some of the comments I have read here today make me want to hurl. Armchair shrinks the lot. And, those who are kidding around, well, they're just major flaming assholes, but I think most of us knew that.

[redqueen]

100. "couldn't face the guilt that he had 'failed' his family"

Thank you for saying that.

That's exactly my point. Adding to that guilt and shame... NOT smart.

[BarenakedLady]

3. Thank you sweetie

It's such an emotional subject for me. Unless you've been there, you can't understand it.

:hug:

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

8. Exactly ...

if you've never been there before you can't even imagine the feeling of just wanting the pain to just end.

[redqueen]

14. Trust me... I know...

:hug:

[raccoon]

Rec'd. nt

[sniffa]

4. Indeed

Thanks for this thread. :thumbsup:

[redqueen]

12. My pleasure...

hell... my obligation.

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

5. I am not a coward .

But sometimes I have felt my weak moments when I felt that suicide was the only way out. Now I have learned to just talk about it and write about it. I think that I am finally on my way to recovery. I wrote about it in my blog this morning .

http://yellowswan.blogspot.com

I don't know why I always felt that suicide was the way out... I just wanted to escape but there is something good on my side keeping me here and for the first time in a long time,I want to stay.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. good for you

I'm glad you're here.

[redqueen]

10. No, you aren't.

It seems as if it's something chemcial that makes us predisposed to thinking that way... I don't know... I'm so glad to hear you now feel like you want to stay. :hug:

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

13. With me its chemical ...

I don't choose to be sad or angry. I just get sad attacks and I don't like it at all. As a child I smiled ALL THE TIME. When I hit my teens something was wrong ... lately I have learned to smile again and when I do I get the biggest smiles on my face and people just tell me they like to see it. I don't want to be sad anymore ... I just don't.

[MonkeyFunk]

26. I was the happiest kid in the world

my mother had four children, and she always talked about what a smiling, happy kid I was.

I had teachers write in my report cards that I was a happy, joyful addition to the class.

Something goes wrong in the head - I can attest to that.

[redqueen]

27. Sometimes it's not that, though...

I was never happy as a kid. Never smiled.

[MonkeyFunk]

28. I'm sorry, sweetie.

[qb]

15. I agree. Suicide is not caused by selfishness.

It is caused by mental illness... a delusion that there is no other solution to your problems. Loving care, hospitalization and/or medication are needed, not bullying or guilt trips.

[redqueen]

19. Loving care, offers to help, as much support as you can offer...

reminders that they're not alone...

I think the best thing is being able to talk to someone who understands...

[BelleCarolinaPeridot]

22. You don't know how many times people used to laugh at me ...

and call me crazy and tell me that I was going to end up in mental institution when I was 11 years old ... these were my family members and that made my pain worse. Like I said,we don't choose to be sad - who the hell would choose to be sad? I did'nt. Its just something that I have to deal with and I realized that I have to deal with for the rest of my life. I could either ignore and get sicker and but I choose to fight it no matter the cost of medicine.Some things are worth shelling out dollars for. I want to live because I want to someday have twins, a boy and girl. Hell I did'nt think I would reach the age of 21 and (this year I will be 28 in August) - I actually remember thinking that to myself while looking in the mirror at my grandmother's house about 8 years ago. Wow and in that moment is where I realized that I still had the rest of my life and it did'nt have to be that way and it was a slow road to where I am now but damn it , I made it. Some of the battle is won ... I am not a coward.

[Lilith Velkor]

17. Kicking someone when they're down is the height of cowardice

Thank you so much for posting this, redqueen.

[redqueen]

20. It's just a failure to understand what's going on in someone else's head.

Unless you've been there, you really can't know.

I can understand the frustration... and the desperation to want to keep a loved one around... it's just a very misguided method of dealing with it.

[Lilith Velkor]

29. I can't understand the thought processes of most people

They seem to like it when people suffer, especially when those same people pretend to be happy.

Maybe it's a Christian thing. I just don't know.

[redqueen]

30. I don't think it's a Christian thing... I think it's a nurturing thing...

perhaps because so many people are so conditioned to accept bullying as a 'fact of life', it makes it easier to accept and mimic.

:shrug:

[Lilith Velkor]

31. Now that makes sense.

:thumbsup:

[Orsino]

18. The "punking out" meme, however, is in fact one way of coping.

If it helps a person find the strength to go on, fine. I just resent its being presented as an absolute, one-size-fits-all solution. It can be a great source of strength, but the concept of strength itself may be meaningless in the face of the pain some people live with.

[redqueen]

21. Strength... that resonates with me.

The way it feels to me is that emotional problems are like a physical weight... and when any person is buried under enough weight, it will crush them. Telling them to buck up and shoulder the burden won't help... or shaming them by saying how bad everyone else will feel if they fail to carry the weight... oh it hurts, just thinking about heraing that, when you're already feeling so, so bad...

But taking some of that burden, even offering to... or telling them how you thought once that you couldn't bear it, either, but you did and you believe they can, too... that's the sort of thing that helps.

IMO, of course.

[easttexaslefty]

89. Exactly

I am reading another book about suicide. I have read many over the course of these months. the book says there are 2 questions to ask a suicidal person. Where does it hurt and what can I do to help?
It does feel like a physical weight. like walking in quicksand.

[redqueen]

110. I know... I really do.

:pals:

I'm sending you a PM... check in a few.

[IndianaJones]

23. bravo. nt.

[Parche]

25. rq

:hug: :hug: :hi:

[RainDog]

32. agreed

bullying should not be anyone's first response. it can lead to total misunderstandings and insults that are not warranted. sometimes it seems people on boards forget that they don't know everything about another person's life, and that their assumptions might be a show of ignorance.

thank you for bringing this up. we could all stand to heed such advice, and not only when the subject is suicide.

[redqueen]

34. "and not only when the subject is suicide"

A most excellent point you make.

Thank you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. I've seen people being called cowards for divorcing. And for NOT divorcing.

And children called cowards for having typical childhood fears (thunder, dark etc). It's NOT an insult to be thrown lightly.

[sanguinivorous]

33. For those who automatically think of suicide as "cowardly"...

For all you know, that person may have been thinking about it for years before they finally reached their breaking point and decided that--family/friends or not--they just couldn't deal with life anymore.

[redqueen]

35. The ONLY time when I would call suicide a "cowardly" act...

is when it's some lowlife criminal who does themself in to avoid shame or paying for their crimes.

That's IT.


And who knows how often those cases are not suicides, but "suicideds". :shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

36. There's nothing cowardly about it

But Redstone means well - he just doesn't understand - internally - what happens.

I'm cutting him a break on this issue.

[RainDog]

37. a thought process develops

and feeds the idea that those you love would be better off without you.

A series of horrific events... emotional events ... can lead to the decision. The idea that you have been totally humiliated can lead to the decision if your identity and self-worth are tied to those events. Even if the entire moment of suicide itself seems to be a sudden decision, it is often after a series of events that few may even know about. A situation in which the person who kills her/himself is innocent of any claims made against them.

Conversely, people with manic-depression/bipolar disorder may act impulsively and out of proportion to the situation to which they are reacting. Not to say that the ideation wasn't a part of some ruminations in other times... a "what if" scenario.

One problem is that society has one definition of depression while the medical profession has another. Society still blames the ill person for actions that would not have occurred if someone could have gotten past that moment. More people kill themselves while experiencing mania than they do experiencing depression.

[sanguinivorous]

38. "A thought process develops...

...and feeds the idea that those you love would be better off without you."

Amen. Especially when a suicidal person sees the almost inevitable frustration in loved ones whose attempts to help/empathize with them fall short.

That's probably not a good feeling.

[TZ]

40. I disagree from experience...

When I was having thoughts in this area, it was the knowledge that I would terribly hurt my family that helped me. Of course there are some people who probably have the idea that it would "show them" and actually try to do it out of spite.(and yes, I have had those types of thoughts too!)
But I don't think merely being understanding and empathetic is the answer. Because no person can truly understand what one person's pain is.
Some people do respond better to cold water being thrown in their face, than sympathy.
There have been a time or two when angry, what you would call "bullying" behavior has done more to make me realize how ill I was than straight sympathy.
Thats the problem with mental illness, there IS no one right way to deal with it. Everybody reacts differently. I have had to make close friends exceedingly angry with me to see the light sometimes, angry to the point of almost alienating me.
Mentally ill people are by nature, self-centered and sometimes you have to be harsh to get through to them.
There's a difference between being bullying and being bracing that I think you are missing here.

[redqueen]

41. "Mentally ill people are by nature, self-centered"

I'm not sure how to even begin to respond to your post.

I'll just say that I disagree, vehemently. Extremely vehemently.

[MonkeyFunk]

113. I think she meant, and expressed inartfully,

that many of us end up concerned with our own pain. It becomes our focus - not that we fail to love others, but we get drawn into our own situation.

Self-centered is not selfish.

[Solon]

43. "Mentally ill people are by nature, self-centered..." Fuck you.

You Judgmental asshole.

[Droopy]

48. Solon

I don't agree with what turtlensue said, either, but I've talked to her on several occasions over in the mental health support group and I can assure you that she's not an asshole. She's having a tough time right now with her sister who is obviously mentally ill and just so happens to be self-centered. Maybe that has colored her view of mentally ill people.

[Solon]

52. It just pisses me off, my mother is bi-polar...

and she isn't self centered at all. I hate this fucking judgmental shit.

[Droopy]

57. I understand

I am a mentally ill person. I often see insensitivity toward us mentally ill folks. All I can do is take the opportunity to educate. I think that's the best that anyone can do.

[redqueen]

62. Hey.

:yourock:

[Droopy]

65. Thanks!

:loveya:

[Maddy McCall]

59. Hey.

:hug:

I'm right there with you.

[merh]

111. But you are being judgmental

It's in our nature to be judgmental and your name calling and reacting to turtlensue's post is being just as judgmental as you feel she has been.

See, you view the world through your eyes, you can't make me see what you see, feel what you feel, know what you know. You can share with me and all of us can share together and someone can take the time to write a study, but that doesn't change how I feel as opposed to how you feel, as opposed to how turtlensue feels and what she knows.

That's what is so damned amazing about all the posts on this, you are all right, we are all right in what we know and feel. There shouldn't be the need to pick sides because we are all right in our way, in our feelings in our experiences.

[Maddy McCall]

55. From what I'm reading of your post, it sounds like...

what led you to thoughts of suicide may have been situational instead of chemical.

Regardless, your statement that mentally ill people are "by nature" selfish is utterly, completely wrong, and quite ignorant. Completely reveals your ignorance on mental health issues.

What I've found is that mentally ill people who are contemplating suicide are the exact opposite of selfish. They know that their mental illness may never be resolved and they don't want to be a burden to the people around them. So they look at death as a way to remove that burden from the people they love.

As far as you making people angry--gee, I don't doubt that. I don't even know you, but this post certainly did that for me.

[Ahpook]

81. Very true.

We lost a family member to suicide. I always remember him saying he couldn't ever be what his father needed him to be. His father called him a "lowlife POS" when he was a child

I am sure that coupled with a failing marriage and not being happy in his work contributed to what eventually happened.

Very sad to think he was this upset and i never really noticed how bad it really was.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

83. I love how saying "self-centered" immediately gets an assload of people on you.

Never mind the fact that "self-centered" doesn't have to have the incredibly negative connotation people usually see--it can be quite true, simply in the area of "myopic," rather than "flaming selfish asshole unable to care for other beings" like others are taking it to be.

Your post is very interesting, and revealing. I'm not mentally ill and I don't really know anyone who is, at least as far as I'm aware, but with people in general cold water can be more useful than kind words, sometimes.

:hi:

[easttexaslefty]

103. You don't know anyone who is mentally ill

and doing know anybody who is. What a condescending ignorant thing to say

[GirlinContempt]

112. Whether or not it's being used in a negative way,

it's just an unfair thing to say. Self-centered generally has negative connotations, but even without them, I think it's silly to claim that mental illness is by nature self centered.

[alarimer]

44. No they are not cowards.

And you can't tell someone just to snap out of it. It doesn't work that way.

[bridgit]

45. that sounds right...

:)

[texas1928]

46. Most just need a friend to sit and listen.

My best friend and I used to, when things got to the point where we were at our last ounce of courage, would call each other and just say "I need a fire". And we would go get a six pack and go out to my friend's place in the country and build a campfire and just sit around and talk. Maybe not about the issue that we are facing, we would just talk and listen. And by the time that evening ended, we felt so much better about life and what was going on. With us being apart for so long, we have not been able to do that. And you know there have been sometimes that I have needed a fire. You know what "I need a fire".

[redqueen]

50. I can't join you in the country...

but I would be happy to meet you around an e-fire.

:hug:

[texas1928]

54. Efires will not work.

It has to be a real fire. One of the things that helps is the crackle and hiss of the wood as it burns. There is something soothing about it.

[redqueen]

63. Well if there's ever anything I can do...

please let me know.

I haven't been around a real fire in too long.

Unless you count bbqs. :)

[texas1928]

66. Oh yeah and after the debate in South Carolina...

I have really come to support Edwards. I liked his platform, but I thought Hillary's and Obama's were good too. But listening to Edwards and seeing him have to put up with the other two taking potshots at each other. I really think he is a good candidate.

[redqueen]

69. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!

:woohoo:

:7

[Cabcere]

47. K&R.

:hug: Thank you for saying this - there are so many misconceptions, stereotypes, and prejudices that are so deeply ingrained into our society regarding depression/suicide that good, decent people often go along with them without even realizing it. I used to be the same way, but now, having been through a very dark time, I do understand. Thank you once again for putting it so well. :pals:

[Joe Fields]

49. Dying is easy. It's living that's hard.

Committing suicide is the easy way out. Solves all your problems. A person may not commit suicide because they are cowardly, but it's a cowardly and selfish act. And maybe by someone pointing out that by committing suicide, you are saddling your loved one's with overwhelming guilt, sadness, anger, and robbing them of the privilege of being able to be with you, to see you, touch you, share each day with you, in the hopes that with each new day, there is hope to make things better, it may just make a difference and bring things into better focus.

[redqueen]

51. But I am telling you, as someone who has struggled with this,

that it WILL NOT.

What it will do is increase their feelings of guilt, worthlessness, shame, self-hate, and every other negative thing you can think of.

What you said about loved ones wanting to be with you... all that is great. Fantastic. Wonderful. Beautiful.

There is absolutely NO NEED to tie that good stuff to shame or bully them with it. It's counterproductive, and IMO just plain bass-ackwards. It HURTS. And when suicide is the best way you can think of to end emotional pain... adding to the pain is just. not. helpful.

[Joe Fields]

58. And I am telling you, as someone who has struggled with this also,

that the good stuff is just exactly what the person needs to think about. When you end your life, there are no more second chances. No more do-overs. You will never again get to see a clear blue sky. You will never again get to feel the soothing warmth of the sun on you face on a pretty spring day. You will never again get to greet a new day with the possibility of your life changing for the better. You never again will give your loved ones the opportunity to do that one thing that could just be the miracle you are looking for to help you see things in a better light.

It has nothing to do with shame or bullying. It has everything with trying to get the person to look at the big picture. The act of suicide releases that person from their pain, but in doing so does burden the surviving family with a lifetime of guilt, sadness and anger that they have to deal with.

[redqueen]

61. But you see! You changed it!

You just said what they'd miss... you didn't say they were doing something cowardly, or selfish, or that they were "punking out" on their family.

Do you see?

You did it!

[Joe Fields]

67. I do understand what you are saying, and would agree that it does no

good to try and shame someone with suicidal tendencies into changing their thought process. But they DO need to look at the big picture, and understand that their act isn't a lone act, but that it will have serious consequences for those left behind to cope with the aftermath.

[redqueen]

68. They already know about the consequences.

Sure, there might be a TINY minority who don't take it into consideration... but I wouldn't risk pushing anyone over the edge over it.

The other things work very well on their own.

[Joe Fields]

71. I disagree with you. We'll have to leave it at that.

[redqueen]

73. Okay... but let me make an analogy...

you know how the right loves to act as if women considering abortions do so flippantly?

Well that's about how much weight I give idea of people considering suicide flippantly... it's a very small number...

[easttexaslefty]

93. Joe

I know very well the consequences. I am living them. I found my son not that long ago hanging from a rope.I KNOW the pain it causes all to well. Most of the time, the fear of doing this to my husband and surviving son keeps me from harm. But sometimes, this is a pit of despair. I would wish PTSD on no one. I was a fairly well adjusted happy person before. I may be again, who knows, its to soon to tell. Listen to people who are depressed! Be there for them! If you really want to help them ,thats what you can do.

[Maddy McCall]

64. Boy, all the memes are here.

Again, until you've lived with severe mental illness, or been the caretaker for someone with severe mental illness, you have no authority on which to base all of the mess you said above.

Some people are SITUATIONALLY depressed and contemplate suicide. Some people are CHEMICALLY depressed and contemplate suicide. The former can usually be remedied by changing the situation. The latter--well, it's much more difficult to resolve.

[Joe Fields]

72. Conversely, until you know me personally, my life history,

and what I've gone through, it is awfully shallow of you to disregard out of hand my point of view. It isn't a fucking meme. It's something I've lived with and dealt with accordingly.

[GreenPartyVoter]

56. Amen. Don't bully them, call their loved ones cowards, or tell them that they

are burning in "Hell". (For God's sake, if they committed suicide they were probably already IN "Hell"!)

I don't know why there is still such a stigma attached to mental illness and/or suicide. I really don't. We should be way beyond this crap by now.

[redqueen]

60. We should be way beyond so many things...

can't give up, though. :)

Won't, rather. ;)

[swag]

70. Hear hear!

[redqueen]

74. Thanks.

:hug:

[ismnotwasm]

75. The hardest thing I've ever done in my life

Was to tell my two step-daughters their mother had committed suicide.

My job, by my own fucking moral compass afterward was to make sure those girls knew it wasn't their fault, NOR was it their mother's fault. It was NOT her fault.

She was deeply troubled, she slipped through the cracks of the mental health system. You always second guess, you know, If I would have done this, if I hadn't done that. One thing we never, ever did was tell those girls she abandoned them or failed them in anyway. That's not how you do it. Not how we did it anyway.

Over the next few years--the teenage ones for the girls, I missed that woman, yes. And come to a greater understanding of how much pain she really was in. So much pain, I ache to this day thinking about it.

I never take suicide lightly, I never blame someone for feelings so deep I can't, or don't know how to reach them or understand them. I would like to think no one else does either.

[redqueen]

76. Bless you.

:hug:

And thank God you didn't reinforce any thoughts they may have held, that she abandoned or failed them. Such ugly, painful things... so unnecessary... and just plain wrong.

*sigh*

[cwydro]

77. Is all this about Heath Ledger?

Because as far as I know, no one is calling it suicide yet.

Sheesh.

[redqueen]

78. Um, no. "Sheesh"?

:wtf:

[easttexaslefty]

95. No, its not about Heath Ledger

its about suicide. Were you born callous?

[redqueen]

96. I'm sorry...

:pals:

I'm not apologizing for the callousness... I'm just sorry for your pain, and your loss...

[Runcible Spoon]

80. And I think everyone jumping all over Redstone's post was cruel and hasty.

look, everyone has her/his own deeply personal and painful experiences with issues like suicide and untimely loss. Even those who were deeply hurt by Redstone's message should realize he was coming from a place of fighting for survival, and for him to share that struggle is brave and makes him extremely vulnerable. I read those threads and cried as someone who has been closely affected by suicide and horrific accidents.

I'll probably get jumped on for not defending the prevailing theme of limitless compassion, sympathy, love and understanding for victims of mental illness (although in reality I have and do try to approach mentally ill family and friends this way), but the basic line is Redstone was doing nothing more than sharing his personal story of survival and what helped him. This is obviously not everyone's path, but to chastise him for telling us is to chastise his way of coping with ongoing, daily, painful battle with pain.

*I know this is long, so skip if you like:

I also ask, what is the line between helping and enabling? I have (had) a friend who was just 24 years old, sexually abused by both parents, and was severely bi-polar and possibly had multiple personalities, although we never knew for sure because she would tell us later on that she was acting for attention; we never knew which April was the true April. She became very promiscuous, and picked up several incurable STDs and got pregnant/miscarried which further sent her down the spiral. During the worst month she would carefully calculate how many pills to take before she would die and the ER would be unable to revive her, and take just enough to pass out but not die before they would pump her stomach. We lived in a big city and she would go to each of the 4 hospitals using fake names and beg us not to tell anyone who she really was so she would not be locked up. She would nod her head solemly, agree to outpatient counseling, telling the doctor it was the first time, she wasn't trying to die, she was just trying to get some sleep. During the worst period she was in teh ER twice a month, and another friend moved in with her.

This girl toook care of her cats, lied to the ER doctors about her identity, cooked, cleaned, even did April's homework for her when she was sick. April took care of sick and dying animals that most people would compassionately put to sleep. One time when April was in the hospital her roommate called me to help with the cats, panicking. There was one cat who couldn't move his rear legs and lad lost all nerves in his hindend. In order to defacate, we had to give him an enema and manually express his colon through massage. Unfortunately, this time the cat had go too long without April or her roommate's help and died from massive infection when his body backed up with too much feces and his colon detached and burst. To me, this was my warning that I was in too deep. April needed help. I refused to lie to the ER doctors, and April shut me out of her life. I wanted her institutionalized, but her roommate continued to help her lie, even when they were caught and confronted by an ER doctor, who screamed at her that she was an enabler and was helping April die. Her ordered her into lockdown at the psychiatric unit, and after the requisite time there she released herself. Months later I would hear of her running away from another institution. Her parents ended up moving all the way across the country to create a convenient reason to not be there for/with her. She ended up putting down all of her sick cats, abandoning her apartment, and now lives in her truck to escape institutionalization, the only thing that might have helped her. I haven't had contact with her since the night I refused to enable her in the ER.

In my heart, I knew her roommate did what she did out of love, compassion, and sympathy for she was only doing what April asked. April knew that eventually her sick organs would give up, and this is what she kept hoping for, to die not from the pills directly but from something she considered, in some sick way, not by her own hand because she said she wanted to die but couldn't actually follow through herself. So what do you do for someone like this? For whom love, compassion, and understanding couldn't help? I wish I had better answers at the time.

[redqueen]

87. Your rambling anecdote doesn't argue for calling all people

who are close to suicide cowards, or selfish, or any other put down.

It doesn't come anywhere close to making it seem even slightly okay.

What that one person did is what that one person did. There are exceptions to everything. They are the exceptions.

Not attacking you, or jumping on you... but that's how I see it.

[GirlinContempt]

105. I didn't see it that way.

He seemed to acknowledge in his own post that it would upset people, why else would he exempt MrsG from it? And it wasn't just about his personal experiences. He characterized suicide as punking out, called it nonsense, and the whole post read like a judgemental lecture.

I thought it was insensitive and made light of the real issues many people face. No one was chastising him for the way HE deals with HIS personal issues, but his presumption that this is how it should and can be dealt with. The whole tone was unkind. I don't think pointing these things out is jumping all over someone.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

82. Are we still all going on about suicide?

DID Ledger commit suicide? Last I heard it was an OD, but that was last night.

Curious.

:hi:

[redqueen]

84. Not about Ledger. (nt)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

85. Well, no, I understand that, but Ledger seems to be the source of all these offsprings.

I suppose asking about him was a bit of a tangent for this thread, farther removed from Ledger than others are. I'll just try CNN or MSNBC instead.

:hi:

[cwydro]

88. Yeah, my question too.

It started with Ledger yesterday, but no one apparently is going to admit that.

And I do not think he committed suicide.

[redqueen]

90. No one is going to admit it?

:wtf:

Look, I didn't see it start with Ledger. I saw Redstone's post, and saw red.

"sheesh"

[WritingIsMyReligion]

98. I think it was Ledger's death--suspicions of suicide.

People start threads about it, then about suicide in general--and you see how it spirals downward from there.

[redqueen]

101. Whatever. (nt)

[easttexaslefty]

109. Whether he committed suicide

is not the discussion. The discussion is about suicide. do ya see the difference?

[easttexaslefty]

99. "Still going on about suicide"

Are you fucking kidding me?

[redqueen]

102. Stunning, isn't it.

*sigh*

[easttexaslefty]

106. More like heartless

[WritingIsMyReligion]

104. I guess what's irritating is that a lot of them have deteriorated into flame wars.

But such is the internet. :shrug:

Good ole discussion on anything is sweet. These 10,000 threads calling out one another and making swipes and revisiting the same issue over and over again in such a pell-mell fashion gets annoying. Talk is never bad, but too many of these threads don't quite feel like talk--more like mud-slinging.

[redqueen]

107. "A lot of them"... "too many of"

Try reading this thread... instead of judging it based on what you've seen elsewhere.


And going by your posts on this thread, you seem to be trying to drag it down to the level of these other threads you seem so bothered by.

[no name no slogan]

86. This suicide survivor thanks you

You can't rationalize it, no matter how hard you try. It's terrible for everybody involved.

[redqueen]

91. My pleasure...

*sigh*

:hug:

[GirlinContempt]

94. Redqueen

Thanks for this post.
You've said what I tried to in a more clear and open way.

[redqueen]

97. My pleasure, GIC...

trust me, my first response to Redstone wasn't clear or open or civil, even.

I did edit it almost immediately... thank goodness.

[GirlinContempt]

108. Probably for the best.

[SPKrazy]

114. Fuckin' A Right!

Redqueen is right!

[crim son]

115. Well said, but not everybody knows.

Even people who live alongside the severely depressed for years, and who learn through experience what does and does not help - even these people don't always get it. I remember one time having a conversation with one of my sisters and we began to talk about moods. For some reason I shared with her a visceral description of depression and ended it with, "...you know?" To my astonishment, she was completely taken aback. No, she didn't know. What I'd described, so intimate a friend to me, was not anything she'd ever encountered. I was shocked.

My point is, the advice is good; but the fact is as you say, they "simply do not understand." I think asking anything for fuck's sake reveals an anger that doesn't elevate the discussion. I hope I'm not offending because I believe we're in fundamental agreement.