The Clash

[Va Lefty]

Poll question: The Clash

According to the BBC documentary "The Seven Ages of Rock", The Clash are a punk band. I always thought of them as new wave. What's your opinion?

[HuskerDU]

1. Billy Joel had one shining moment.

When he sang, 'everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound funny but it's still rock-n-roll to me'.

[kwassa]

47. Husker Du quoting Billy Joel

now, if that isn't a travesty, what is?

[HuskerDU]

48. hahaha

Hey I give credit where credit is due! The king of uncool had a smart thing to say once.

[HuskerDU]

88. In defense of Billy Joel-

He did play at Max's Kansas City! :hide: :hide: :hide:

[harmonicon]

2. punk all the way - no question

If you have any interest in the clash (one of my all time favorite bands) watch the DVD documentary "Westway to the World". It was made while they were all still alive and didn't mind talking about the clash (which many of them have had a problem with over the years). It's also a very very good film. There's also a great movie I saw this summer all about Joe Strummer (one of the main songwriters in the group), but I can't remember the name.

[electricmonk]

7. Let's Rock Again, probably

Great movie. The way Joe interacts with his fans should be required viewing for all rock/pop stars or rock/pop star wannabes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCduuU_pV6M

There's a new one coming out next spring, The Future is Unwritten.

[ghostsofgiants]

9. The Future Is Unwritten is already out.

[electricmonk]

10. oops, sure is

I had it confused with Let Fury Have the Hour coming out in late 08. From Radio 4's MySpace bulletin.

".Elsewhere work on the Antonino Dambrosio/Tim Robbins film, Let Fury Have the Hour, is continuing and the band will be providing most of the music for that film which is due at the end of 2008"

[harmonicon]

12. yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of

I saw it this summer, and thought it was great. It was very inspiring, but also made me really really sad that he's died.... and I didn't know he had a wife and kids, which makes dying so young even worse.

[Bryan]

3. I don't think it's either-or

To the degree that these things can be quantified chronologically, The Clash's period of activity spanned both the "punk" and "postpunk" eras, and a case can also be made that they chafed at the punk label and that their interest in reggae and early hip-hop made them sufficiently atypical for a punk act that they could fairly be classed as "New Wave".

Equally compelling is the possibility that I'm just talking out of my ass. :crazy:

[MrSlayer]

4. I've always considered them to be something other than punk. Maybe pop punk at best.

Some of their early stuff was punky but they were very much a pop band to my ears. Real punk is stuff like the Sex Pistols, Dead Kennedys, Black Flag, Circle Jerks and The Misfits. Loud, fast, angry, obnoxious and sarcastic are the hallmarks of Punk Rock and they incorporate none of this.

[Va Lefty]

5. I agree

They came out of England and their early songs were loud and angry. In my mind, punk is The Ramones and The Cramps; along with the bands you named.

[harmonicon]

11. you've obviously never listened to them then!

[MrSlayer]

13. But I have.

That was my point.

[SteppingRazor]

19. So, then, The Ramones aren't punk because of songs like "I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend?" n/t

[tigereye]

34. funny how they didn't want to be called punks, either

they thought that the Bay City Rollers were the epitome of fame at the time that they started... (I just finished Monty Melnick's On the Road with the Ramones book)

[harmonicon]

21. what BS

The Clash pre-date every band you mentioned, with the exception of the sex pistols, who were their contemporaries. The Clash were one of the few bands that DEFINED what punk is. What they also did was bring left-wing politics and social concerns into punk music, which I would count as far more important than obnoxious and sarcastic. This isn't about opinions, these are just the facts. I'm sure you really think that you're right about this, but if you knew the history of the band, and punk music in general, you could not claim that they weren't punk.

[driver8]

57. Well said.

I agree with you 100%.

I like the Sex Pistols, but the Clash were on a whole different level musically and politically.

To me, the Clash are what punk music was all about.

[tigereye]

26. mm, the Ramones argument?

and the time frame is not right for them to be pop-punk. I think pop-punk came much later.



To many of us, the Pistols were a product, whereas The Clash actually meant it. And, they all were inspired by the Ramones....


Plus there is the "confusion of punk with hardcore" argument. THe Clash certainly sounded loud, fast, angry and sarcastic to this old school punk's ears in the late 70s...


oh, I love arguments about the origins of punk! ;) (whips out copy of "England's Dreaming")

[redqueen]

68. That is a very sexy post.

[tigereye]

72. he he - assuming you meant what I said...

not intended that way...

but that's very funny. Actually the cover of the book itself looks like it would work that way! :rofl:

[redqueen]

74. Oh I know... it was just a post about music... but

I'm very strange.

Something about your appreciation of the loud, fast, angry and sarcastic... and that you were experiencing it at the time as opposed to discovering it later... and I don't think it was in that post, but you mentioned the political angle of it...

I know I'm a weirdo but I do think that is some sexy stuff.

[tigereye]

75. well, that's cool!

I was just talking about how it seemed to me at the time. It was very exciting, probably the most exciting stuff I had ever heard - and I was only 19, so. That's probably why I get so exercised about it.

:hi:

[abq e streeter]

6. Started out as punk all the way

but their musical abilities and interest in expanding the boundaries of punk took them far away from the original relatively narrow boundaries . In this way, to me, they left every other punk band in the dust, and in my personal pantheon of the greatest/most important bands ever, they are a close second to Bruce and the E Street Band. I just missed the Strummer movie; aready here and gone, but I'm sure it'll be out on DVD soon. Can't wait...

[ghostsofgiants]

8. Punk and new wave were essentially interchangable terms in the 70s,

[redqueen]

17. I beg to differ.

Here's how I saw things...

New Wave: Human League, Flock of Seagulls, etc.

Punk: Clash, Dead Kennedys, etc.

I doubt there are many bands who could straddle those two genres. Then again I hate genres, so... I'm probably wrong anyway.

[ghostsofgiants]

22. Human League and Flock of Seagulls were New Romantic, not New Wave.

New wave and punk were used to refer to bands in the CBGBs scene at the time.

[redqueen]

25. Ah yes... I'm so not good with genres. But still... the Clash is NOT new wave.

Sorry but they are just not.

Someone better suited to explain will have to explain why. I only know that they are not.

[ghostsofgiants]

27. I'm more inclined to call them punk as well, I'm just saying that historically speaking...

It's not incorrect to call them new wave because at that time the terms were basically interchangeable.

[redqueen]

32. Yeah I kinda don't agree on that either...

new wave wasn't so 'againsty'.

I'm not good at this.

[tigereye]

33. not to thost of us listening they weren't

we had arty punks in our town - a lot of art students - who didn't always do the mohawk thing- I think some of us made the distinction based on dress as well as music.

Certainly there were some overlaps, but I do agree that punk was/is much broader than the stereotype. Most of it was about the DIY attitude, and new wavers tended to have more $, more fancy equipment and often less politics....

at least that's how it looked to me at the time.

Romeo Void could be an example, I suppose of a less commercial New Wave band. BUt I suppose I am framing it in terms of what I listened to at the time.


What would JOy Division be then - they seem to fit into the new wave time frame ---

[ghostsofgiants]

37. Joy Division are a post-punk band.

As punk and new wave diverged, new wave then became split between the poppier, more commercial stuff, to which you're referring, and the darker more "artistic" stuff, so to speak, such as Joy Division.

[no name no slogan]

39. yeah, what he said

I think people are confusing "New Wave" with "Post Punk".

[tigereye]

69. tell em no name, it was really about hair, wasn't it?

:rofl:

ah, we loved those big black coats at the time. We thought we were soooo cool.

[no name no slogan]

80. Heh! I found my old leather motorcycle jacket last month

just BARELY fits over my gut! :rofl:

[no name no slogan]

38. I'd call Joy Division the first post-punk band

sonically speaking. They were definitely inspired by punk (and given some of their earlier tracks, could have even been called punk), but their definitive work was not punk.

I think there's a lot of confusion between "New Wave" and "Post-Punk". "New Wave" was one of the terms used by Sex Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren and others to describe what we now call the first wave of UK punk.

[ghostsofgiants]

40. When Joy Division was Warsaw they were mostly punk.

But yeah, definitely post-punk.

[ghostsofgiants]

43. Not to mention Seymour Stein, who signed a lot of the CBGBs bands to Sire...

He used new wave in reference to those bands as well.

[tigereye]

46. I don't think the term is as sophisticated as the term when used in film though

as applied to music...

I suppose in some ways back then, it was about who had big scary hair, and who didn't! :rofl:

[tigereye]

31. no, new wave came later - mostly a corporate product...

those of us who were alive back then remember.... ;)


put away tha history/wiki rocknroll chart! :hi:

[GirlinContempt]

41. Uh. no.

You remember the final group of bands called 'new wave'. That doesn't have anything with do with a rock and roll chart, what he's saying is the truth.

[tigereye]

49. no, I was there in a punk band and watching actual new wave bands at the time

however, I will get out my copies of England's Dreaming and various books about the Ramones and scour through em again -


:hi:

[ghostsofgiants]

50. Just because that was your perspective at the time doesn't mean it wasn't the historical context.

[tigereye]

65. sure, I know

but we just did it - we didn't analyze it very much, well except the record store guys and college djs! We didn't know that there would be a historical context, and hell, it was DIY anarchy, non-commercial and people just did it for the hell of it! ;)


It just amuses me when people who weren't born yet tell we old fogies what it was like.... ( and I mean that in a respectful and affectionate way, not a snarky one)


be careful or I'll have to whip out my list of all the bands I saw at that time! :hi:

[ghostsofgiants]

103. You do realize that's kind of like arguing...

That studying history in general is pointless because we weren't there. Or that criticizing the war isn't our place because we're not soldiers. On a slightly less important scale, of course, but it's essentially the same. Whether you mean it to be respectful and affectionate or not, it is slightly condescending. I might not have been even born then, but I'm not just pulling these claims out of my ass or anything.

[GirlinContempt]

51. Sorry

but saying wikipedia, with it's cited sources, is wrong and then provide anecdotal evidence isn't going to win me over.

[tigereye]

67. nah, I just like messing with the young folk

c'mon, were you guys even born at the time? (I'm teasing some here)

LIke I said to primate, we didn't think about it - no one knew it would have a historical context. For me, it was a bunch of drunken artists and left-wingers who taught themselves to play instruments - guys and females - when females didn't do that kind of thing. It was amazingly exciting to hear The Ramones and The Clash and The Pistols and Lora Logic and The Slits, etc., when very little music sounded like that. It was so amazingly fast and nlike anything I had heard previously.

The historical context in America was incredible blandness of music during the Carter years, then Ronald Reagan, horrible world events and recession. I know about the political context in England to some extent, as well, mostly from having read about it, sure.


I like to joke about Wiki stuff, since a lot of the music stuff seems to be written by folks who look back at it, didn't experience it, and didn't seem to understand it - at the least the experiences I had - and making it into something almost academic, which it wasn't. Well, maybe if the wiki stuff were written by Legs McNeil, or Richard Hell, or some of the NY/London denizens of the time.


I've read a lot of stuff about the era, certainly, but I'm not particularly interested in penning a dissertation about it - not my field. I think England's Dreaming is a pretty reasonable delineation, but it is a bit turgid and post-modern.

anyway. I'm just in a bit of a contentious mood - must be the holidays!

I'll ponder this more and find some citations to back up my meta-analysis!

[GirlinContempt]

70. The experiences *you had*

don't sound much like the experiences *others had*. Who was born at the time or not is irrelevant, and your not thinking about it at the time proves that. In one breath, you didn't think about it, in another breath, this or that was or wasn't so because of what happened to you.

Legs mcneil has written about it, and it isn't that far off from wiki sources. It's a pretty silly discussion anyway, you're going to believe whatever you believe because of your basement punk band, i'm going to believe what i believe because of my knowledge and experience, and really, it doesn't matter.

[tigereye]

73. you are right, but this is one of the few things, other than feminism

that I REALLY like to argue about. (it's very rare for me to argue about much else here)

I'm just offering one experiential view. Sometimes when I'm in the CD store, guys start hyperventilating when I tell them I actually saw the Ramones, more than once. And I tell em, hey, everyone saw the Ramones then, you couldn't avoid em. I'm just an old punk mom, and that's what I did for fun at the time, and I played in bands for almost 15 years, until parenthood intervened.

Seriously, recommend a good scholarly article about punk history (sorry, that sounds like such an oxymoron) , and I'll be glad to check it out.


:hi:

on edit, my band recorded with Kramer, and we played at the Knitting Factory, so I'm not just blowing smoke out of my butt. We weren't well-known, we were just a bunch of poet/writer grad students who liked music a lot.

[no name no slogan]

79. You're Naomi Yang of Galaxie 500, aren't you?

Grad student, recorded with Kramer, played the knitting factory-- I'm onto you!!!!! :D

[tigereye]

85. wow, I wish that were true

one of my bandmates recorded with Chris Stamey back in the day. She had way more connections than me, as did the guy who set up the Kramer thing.

my fave grad band was Timbuk Three.

I was just trying to say that I do know a little bit about what went on.

And we did play the KF in August, not at the college fest. But it was just cool to be there. The only time our name was ever in the New Yorker! :rofl:

[no name no slogan]

93. Playing the KF is still pretty damn cool though...

I've played at the 7th Street Entry/1st Ave in Mpls a few times with various bands, and it's just cool to think of so many other amazing, seminal bands also played that same stage.

But so did a bunch of really shitty bands, too, so maybe it's not that cool after all. :D

[tigereye]

99. well, when we played there, I was so psyched that I was actually playing

on the same stage where famous alternative and traditional jazz guys had played the week before... :wow:

[GirlinContempt]

83. I wasn't meaning to imply

that your band sucked or anything, imo basement whatever band refers to an unknown/not well known band, but i guess it could sound snarky.

[tigereye]

86. it wasn't like we were never told that we sucked...

we were once called Zappa-like by a reviewer -we switched instruments and played tape loops and all that stuff. And in our scene that wasn't exactly a good thing. Most of us were writers and English majors who just thought it would be cool to be in a band with women, or at least 2 women.

There were very few women drummers when I started.

[GirlinContempt]

90. Seems like there are still very few women drummers

at least, compared to the number of guys. I wonder why that is...

[tigereye]

96. yeah, it's weird

a lot more young women are learning now, though. I only ended up playing them since no one else in the band I was in wanted to!


It's not like women can't play - it really isn't that hard. You have to be able to count and learn to use your hands and feet independently. :shrug:

[GirlinContempt]

97. I'm so unable to play any instrument

I'd fail miserably. I'm so in awe of people who can do it well.

Actually that's not true, aside from singing, I've been the egg-shaker lady. :P

Women seem to have a distinctly different drumming style, or maybe it's just the ones I've heard. It's neat.

[tigereye]

98. I was a 'weird" drummer - I taught myself and that's how I played for years

then I took lessons, and I learned how to play "correctly" I don't know that one way is better than the other. The original woman drummer in Scrawl was really good, as was Gina Schock from the Go-Gos. Sheila E is also very good.
"

Now I have fun watching the women and guys I see playing on tv, videos, etc, to see if they are "trained" or not.


My fantasy would be to play well enough to be a jazz drummer...

[GirlinContempt]

102. Jazz drumming is crazy

that would be really awesome

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

77. ...

whoops

[tigereye]

30. no, they weren't

big difference in attitude, sound and commercialism (new wave more commercial)


listen and learn young padewan....

[ghostsofgiants]

36. In the original context, yes, they were...

New wave in a lot of cases was used to refer to first wave punk bands because the term punk rock had negative connotations. The two styles began to diverge, where punk became more associated with sounds like the Pistols, etc. but bands like Television, Devo, Talking Heads, etc. could all be interchangably called punk and new wave.

[HuskerDU]

59. You can find flyers with legit punk bands on 'em with the words

'new wave'. It meant the next wave of RnR at the time. Eventually NW was all of the New Order type stuff. (synths and not guitars)

[ghostsofgiants]

60. Exactly.

[tigereye]

71. the problem with those delineations is that they over-analyze what it was

a lot of those people probably would not have called themselves new wave, well unless they were into Godard, right? They probably wouldn't have liked the punk label,either.


You need to call em up and ask em! :) The first Talking Heads album sounded pretty "hard" at the time it came out, although those folks were artiists, and I suppose they might have preferred the new wave label if it fit in with their film classes, etc. Television had roots in a "hippie" sound in some ways, with the snark and mystery added in. Patti Smith came out of the artist community and probably was a hippie/punk in some ways. She probably would say that she was a poet, first.

It's the art that was important, not the labels!

[GirlinContempt]

56. New wave was not commercial!

seems like you need some lessons.

[SouthoftheBorderPaul]

78. Pop a St. John's Wort and chill the fuck out.

tigereye is sharing her memories and experiences and has been very gracious You're being a straight-up brat.

[GirlinContempt]

81. I think it's pretty bratty

to continually refer to other posters age as if this disqualifies them

[fudge stripe cookays]

87. I'd say firsthand experience...

trumps wiki.

I'd dislike being told off by someone your age when i'd been there as well.

[GirlinContempt]

89. I'd say it doesn't.

I don't think one particularly 'trumps' the other. I've had first had experience in a band, it doesn't make me an expert on the kind of music that we play. wiki is based on many sources, and not infallible, but certainly a good resource.

I don't think Jon was telling her off by any stretch.

[fudge stripe cookays]

91. No, he wasn't.

But you got pretty rude with her.

Tigereye is one of the nicest people on this board, and usually I get along with you pretty well, but you sounded like a petulant teenager. You weren't there. She was. And in bands. Books and wiki only give you so much.

[GirlinContempt]

92. Look

I wasn't meaning to be rude. I went back and read it, some of it was rude. And I feel bad about that, it wasn't my intent. I should have added a smiley or something to the 'you need a lesson' thing, it wasn't meant to come off so bitchy. I wasn't there, she was, and I can still disagree, and that's ok.

[fudge stripe cookays]

94. Yes, you can, and yes it is.

Just wanted you to see how it came off, that's all.

Peace.
:hi:
fsc

[GirlinContempt]

95. Thanks hon

and sorry again tigereye

[Kucinich4America]

14. Punk, definitely

At least up through London Calling. Not a lot of punk music on Sandanista, but at the same time, a punk attitude {Why are we making a triple album full of funk and reggae songs? Because we fucking feel like it!)

Gotta say I liked the early stuff best though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_C78zw5i8U

[Orsino]

15. If only because they couldn't sing.

That can be a plus in punk, as it was in their case, but it definitely disqualifies them from New Wave.

[redqueen]

16. I had no idea there was any confusion about the matter.

They're punk.

[SteppingRazor]

18. The Clash were a punk-rock band that experimented with reggae, dub and New Wave...

but they were definitely not a New Wave band. If Joe Strummer were alive today and heard someone call his music New Wave, he'd knock their fucking teeth in.

[driver8]

58. Ha Ha -- how right you are!!

New Wave? The Clash??!!

Give me a fucking break!

[greendog]

20. Do they need a label?

Who cares what the marketing bozos call it.

[abq e streeter]

66. Best point yet ( including mine where I participated in the label-fest)

[tigereye]

23. they preceded the new wave thing...

their artiness may have contributed to it, I suppose.

nope, they were the real thing.

[no name no slogan]

24. Both are marketing terms. Just call it rock and roll

because in the end, that's what it is.

[ghostsofgiants]

28. Now there is a good answer.

:thumbsup:

[redqueen]

29. Marketing?

I thought they were used by the listeners to describe sounds or determine what they might or might not like.

Didn't know they were assigned by PR people.

[HuskerDU]

42. Um, didn't I say that in post #1? nt

[ghostsofgiants]

44. I think most people saw "Billy Joel" and were like "fuck that!"

:P

[HuskerDU]

45. I don't blame 'em for that!

That's why I said it was his one bright shining moment. (in a career of crap!)

[no name no slogan]

53. Sorry, it's the Billy Joel reaction

When I see it in a subject line, I ignore the rest :P

[HuskerDU]

54. Yeah, I would too.

But isn't it scary that a guy like him could come up with that observation? :scared:

[no name no slogan]

62. Indeed. But even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

:D

[HuskerDU]

64. Yup Billy Joel was the blind squirrel on that one.

:)

[Westegg]

35. Back in the day, there was a lot of confusion re: these labels...

...Hell, anyone new to the rock scene circa '76-'80 was being shoehorned into the "punk" or "new wave" camps, whether it was relevant or not. Thus, Tom Petty, who wore a leather jacket on his first album cover, was initially lumped in with the Clash and the Cars, for example, and the Cars were lumped in with the Police. Etc., etc. But the Clash are/were a "punk" band, no doubt about it-- one of the first and one of the best. "New Wave," as a generic description, was broader than punk, in that "punk" could be considered "new wave" because it was part of-- and indeed the motor behind-- the fresh new approach to rock by younger artists that was happening in the late '70s.

What matters most today, 30 years on, is whether the music is still relevant today (whether the bands exist or not). The Clash still matters, albeit in a different way. "London Calling" sounds fantastic today, and I dare say it will 50 years from now.

So will the New York Dolls, the Velvets and the Stooges, who were "punk" before the term was codified by the media.

Labels are always suspect, and ultimately irrelevant.

[HuskerDU]

84. Guys like Iggy and Johnny Thunders always rejected the punk

label. In a way, that is what makes 'em the ultimate punks. A few tears for the 4 deceased New York Dolls. :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: The best RnR band there ever was IMO.

[mitchum]

101. "I'm no punk; a punk is someone who gets cornholed in prison" Willy DeVille

[NewWaveChick1981]

52. Regardless of what you call them, I love the Clash.

:hi: :toast:

[HuskerDU]

55. Do I have to turn in my 'rocker' card since I mentioned

Billy Joel? I HAVE SINNED!!!

[ghostsofgiants]

61. Bob Mould is rolling in his grave.

(And he's not even dead!)

:P

[HuskerDU]

63. So that's what that sound is!

Should my penalty be changing my username to 'DepecheModerulz'?! Or maybe 'Softrocker'!

[rockymountaindem]

76. I think arguments about genres are pointless

Can't we all just listen to what we like and pursue our own interests without labels?

[Taverner]

82. Like The Police, REM, The Beatles and the Talking Heads, they transcend genre

Some of their stuff could even be considered disco.

Joe Strummer was a freakin genius. He and Johnny Marr ruled 80's guitar.

[mitchum]

100. They were a "critic's band"...a premeditated enterprise designed to appeal to the "rock writers"...

of the day. They utilized all of the elements that said critics adored: rockabilly, dub, garage, obscure R&B, leftist politics, the laddishness of Mott The Hoople, etc...
It is unfair that the Pistols are tagged with the prefab label, while the Clash are given a pass as far as "authenticity" is concerned.
That being said, I think that the Clash were a really great band. However, if they had come along 5 years earlier, Mick Jones would have been wearing platform heels and eyeliner. Count on it.

[Avalux]

104. Punk, my dear.

The invoked emotion, did their own thing and didn't give a shit about what anyone thought (punk). They didn't care much about their hair or their clothes (new wave). :hi:

[redqueen]

105. I think the results here speak for themselves...

and it would be the same or even more lopsided given a wider sampling.