The Makah Whale debacle: where are you at?

[Tyler Durden]

Poll question: The Makah Whale debacle: where are you at?

I apologize in advance for "Goring your Ox" if you support the practice of letting Native Americans slaughter whales under the excuse of "Tradition," but using modern technology because "it's all legal" under some 150+ year old treaty.

Seriously kids: we are not the same nation that signed that treaty, and knowing what we know NOW regarding the intelligence of animals in general and Cetaceans in particular should cause us to do the same thing we advocate with OTHER Rogue Whaling Nations: The Makah should be treated as a "Whaling Nation" and boycotted.

Now this is MY opinion, and I don't write the laws; but perhaps, just perhaps...

Personally, I found the sight of that buoy line attached to a motorized boat, the pictures of some asshole holding a .50 Barrett in the canoe, and the ribs of this creature being lifted by a BACKHOE to be repellent and disgusting: I saw nothing to be proud of.

[Tyler Durden]

1. No whale lovers/haters out there?

Or have I become the "Owosso Thread Killer."

I've been "Last Post" on a lot of threads lately.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

51. Completely against whaling

These beautiful gentle giants deserve to live out their lives in the oceans without getting slaughtered.

I just don't buy the culture argument. Not everything in all cultures are equal.

[xchrom]

2. the tradition is meant to serve a different time.

following this tradition now -- is aberrant and a perversity of the tradition as it was intended.

[Tyler Durden]

4. Granted.

Like hunting for Polar Bears with a snowmobile and high-powered scoped rifle.

Seems like this tradition wants the rest of us to respect the KILLING and forget about METHOD for the sake of expediency.

[IndianaJones]

3. I voted let 'em do what they want. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

5. Guns, powerboats and all?

SWELL tradition they got there.

[IndianaJones]

6. Traditions tend to be pretty stupid most times.

I figure, who am I to tell them what to do or how to do it.

[Tyler Durden]

8. The TREATY should tell them how to do it.

They want the right? Fine. Update and re-sign the treaty. Traditional Canoes, spears, that's it. See how many of these people are FOOL enough to go out and fight with a whale on IT'S terms, with no modern advantage.

[IndianaJones]

9. I am not very familiar with their tribe...

What you suggest may be reasonable.

[Tyler Durden]

11. Their calling it "a traditional hunt," I say we take them at their word.

First boat full gets wasted on the high seas, watch how fast THAT silly tradition dies the death the 21st century demands.

EVERYTHING CHANGES.

[IndianaJones]

12. I can agree that hunting whales seems a silly tradition. nt.

[Tyler Durden]

13. The Chinese eat DOG. It's a TRADITION.

Guess how fast THAT li'l ol' tradition would get its nuts kicked up around its ears; and rightly so.

As so many others have said, change is inevitable: they need to grow up and join the 21st Century.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. I haven't got a problem with Chinese eating dog, either.

Why would I? I wouldn't eat dog, but I'm not going to tell Chinese people they shouldn't. And I wouldn't want, say, a Hindu telling me I shouldn't eat beef.

[YankeyMCC]

7. I think it's more than just 'tradition'

Perhaps a renegotiation needs to happen and they need to demonstrate that the purpose of preserving this 'tradition' is to provide the practical value whale hunting has always provided to people living in that culture. In other words, do they still rely on the whale for food (and other essentials) and given their social and economic position within the wider community is it realistic that they should indeed continue this and can they do it in a sustainable manner. I don't think modern vs ancient technology is the question, I think the question is would removing this choice further limit the options available to the people of this culture and can they practice the hunt in a sustainable safe manner.

[Tyler Durden]

10. I think modern/ancient technology is the WHOLE battle.

I'm a gun owner, but I think anyone who takes a .270 rifle with 20x scope to kill PRARRIE DOGS is an asshole. WAR is about more efficient ways of killing, NOT HUNTING.

I say, if any of these First Nations folks want to hunt whales, fine: you get a CANOE and the tools of your ancestors, INCLUDING THE GARB. Leave your waterproof boots and NOMEX coats at HOME. And if you get wasted by the WHALE, you knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred.

[YankeyMCC]

14. Why go back to just a canoe

Why not force them to hunt from the shore with spears?

Why permit them fire to cook the meat?

An arbitrary technology line is - just that arbitrary - Should they use automatic weapons? I don't think so and probably they don't either, it's isn't effective and it's wasteful, but they should be allowed to carry out their hunt for food in any reasonable modern fashion just like anyone else hunts the animals they are allowed to hunt, under appropriate rules and guidelines.

[Tyler Durden]

15. They hunt as they DID, or they don't hunt at all.

They don't need the meat. It's been 8 YEARS since the last whale murder. If they needed the meat that badly, we wouldn't be discussing this: they'd be dead.

[YankeyMCC]

19. As the did when?

What arbitrary date do you want to impose?

[Tyler Durden]

20. Here's how they did it.

No one knows how long the Makah hunted whales. Archaeological evidence points back at least 2,000 years; Makah elders say that they have hunted whales "forever." During times in Makah history, whales may have provided up to 80% of the subsistence needs for the five traditional family tribes that comprise the modern Makah.

Hunting whales was no easy task. It was made all the more difficult by the complicated rituals that the Makah hunters would observe in preparation for their hunts. Prior to the hunt, Makah tribesman would ritually bathe themselves in the icy waters of the Pacific. They would rub their skin raw on sharp mussels and barnacles. A few days before their hunt they would often dig up a fresh grave and dismember a corpse. During the hunt the they would secure the torso of the corpse on their backs-a gesture indicating their respect for their dead brethren.

On the hunt a Makah whaling crew would silently intercept a migrating whale, usually either a humpback or gray, and plunge a massive harpoon into its back. Attached to the harpoon would be a long line; attached to the line were several air bladders made of gutted seals. The hope was that the inflated seal skins would prevent the whale from diving. After the whale died, a diver would plunge into the icy water and sew the giant's mouth shut, preventing air from escaping during the tow back to the village. When the whale arrived on the beach, the whole village clamored towards the dead beast. The wives of the hunters were certainly relieved; during the entirety of the hunt they had been instructed to remain motionless in their beds, not eating, sleeping or talking.

The Makah Tribal Council began looking for a way out of their financial doldrums. Across the country many tribes had found economic salvation in casinos. Those lucky tribes who, by historical happenstance, found their reservations bisected by major interstate freeways, reaped considerable gambling profits.

But there would be no gambling profits for the Makah. Occupying the most northwestern patch of land in the continental United States, the Makah reservation is painfully remote. Despite a new multimillion dollar marina, which brings in revenue during the fishing season, few people visit the reservation.

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling....


NOTE that they planned on SELLING the carcase to the JAPANESE. Traditional hunt, my foot.

[YankeyMCC]

21. Let me state that I'm not defending this instance

the op was an open ended question about how such agreements should be treated going forward.

I agree that this particular case most likely falls outside the bounds.

I think it's silly to persevere traditions just for the sake of preserving traditions, if those traditions are harmful to people or the ecology. But many traditions have real value to people and I think it's silly to put arbitrary rules around something that provides real value.

Is this one instance of killing a whale providing real value? Seems not, although it seems some of the facts in the original report have been muddled so it's not for me to judge since I'm so far removed, and if it is indeed outside the bounds they should be severly punished but more importantly the fundamental issues of how to allow valuable traditions to continue without harm to people or ecology needs to be address and conversely we should not be arbitrarily enforcing rules over traditions that will end up causing more harm to people who follow those traditions.

[Tyler Durden]

22. I just think their traditions never originally involved selling the carcase to the Japanese.

I could be WRONG...But I'm not.

[YankeyMCC]

23. Where did I say that it was?

[Tyler Durden]

24. EASY there Tex! We on the same side here....

At least at the moment!

[YankeyMCC]

25. Sorry

thought you were implying I supported what these particular people did.

I think we are on the same side, if a bit off on some of the details of how to deal with the whole issue of 1st nation hunting.

No worries :)

And please don't call me Tex ;)

[Tyler Durden]

32. Sorry about the "Tex"...

Bill Murray uses it in a movie that slips my mind at the moment. Getting Old sucks.

[LeftyMom]

16. I'm gonna guess a motorboat, a rifle and a guy named Johnson is not a traditional Makah whale hunt.

Whales reproduce very slowly and their numbers, even in the species that aren't in absolute freefall, are very far off of historic levels.

Whale meat itself is so full of pesticides, flame retardants, mercury and other human poisons that nobody has any business eating it anyhow.

The oceans are deeply sick. Dying probably isn't a stretch. We need to back the fuck off and let them heal.

[Tyler Durden]

17. AMEN Sister. I posted about this, but someone said "...I just don't give a shit..."

No one knows how long the Makah hunted whales. Archaeological evidence points back at least 2,000 years; Makah elders say that they have hunted whales "forever." During times in Makah history, whales may have provided up to 80% of the subsistence needs for the five traditional family tribes that comprise the modern Makah.

Hunting whales was no easy task. It was made all the more difficult by the complicated rituals that the Makah hunters would observe in preparation for their hunts. Prior to the hunt, Makah tribesman would ritually bathe themselves in the icy waters of the Pacific. They would rub their skin raw on sharp mussels and barnacles. A few days before their hunt they would often dig up a fresh grave and dismember a corpse. During the hunt the they would secure the torso of the corpse on their backs-a gesture indicating their respect for their dead brethren.

On the hunt a Makah whaling crew would silently intercept a migrating whale, usually either a humpback or gray, and plunge a massive harpoon into its back. Attached to the harpoon would be a long line; attached to the line were several air bladders made of gutted seals. The hope was that the inflated seal skins would prevent the whale from diving. After the whale died, a diver would plunge into the icy water and sew the giant's mouth shut, preventing air from escaping during the tow back to the village. When the whale arrived on the beach, the whole village clamored towards the dead beast. The wives of the hunters were certainly relieved; during the entirety of the hunt they had been instructed to remain motionless in their beds, not eating, sleeping or talking.

The Makah Tribal Council began looking for a way out of their financial doldrums. Across the country many tribes had found economic salvation in casinos. Those lucky tribes who, by historical happenstance, found their reservations bisected by major interstate freeways, reaped considerable gambling profits.

But there would be no gambling profits for the Makah. Occupying the most northwestern patch of land in the continental United States, the Makah reservation is painfully remote. Despite a new multimillion dollar marina, which brings in revenue during the fishing season, few people visit the reservation.

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling....


Think those people EVER hunt whales like that these days? Shitheads.

[Tyler Durden]

18. Oh, I put them on IGNORE. GOD it felt good.

I hate to say it, but putting assholes on IGNORE is becoming my favorite pastime!

[LostinVA]

26. My ignore list is bigger than your ignore list

[Tyler Durden]

27. I refuse to play "mine is bigger than yours."

This is about the whales. Y'silly!

[baldguy]

28. Industrialized whale hunting should be banned entirely.

Individual communities in societies where whale hunting is a tradition should be allowed to organize one hunting party a year.

The fact is, the walers did not have the permission or support of the leaders of the Makah and Neah Bay 5 mi from the Canadian border. If they had been on the other side of an imaginary line drawn in the water, this wouldn't be a story.

[Tyler Durden]

29. Yeah, then they could have SOLD the body to the nearest Japanese Falctory ship.

Like the greedy little fucks had planned from the start:

snip.

The Makah Tribal Council began looking for a way out of their financial doldrums. Across the country many tribes had found economic salvation in casinos. Those lucky tribes who, by historical happenstance, found their reservations bisected by major interstate freeways, reaped considerable gambling profits.

But there would be no gambling profits for the Makah. Occupying the most northwestern patch of land in the continental United States, the Makah reservation is painfully remote. Despite a new multimillion dollar marina, which brings in revenue during the fishing season, few people visit the reservation.

The key to Makah economic prosperity had always been the whale trade, and the Tribal Council began to realize that a return to this trade may just prove to be the economic savior that the tribe had been waiting for. Japanese market prices pegged the value of one gray whale at anywhere from $500,000 to 1 million dollars, and since the Makah were the only Americans with a legal treaty right to hunt gray whales, they would have no competition for these dollars.

http://www.alamut.com/subj/the_other/misc/makahWhaling ....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. I fully support the Makah.

We are the same nation that signed that treaty.

Unfortunately, we're the same nation that's done nothing but violate our treaties with Native Americans, and told them what they can and cannot do.

[Tyler Durden]

33. I suggest you read #29, and welcome back to IGNORE.

As usual, you pick a fight without paying any attention to the reasons it's going on.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. I read it before posting.

I've also no problem with Makah selling the whale meat.

I've been paying attention since the whole thing started up again in, what was it, early nineties?

The Makah used to trade whale meat with neighboring tribes back before the white man showed up, they used to sell it to white men back before white men hunted it to near extinction back in the earliest twentieth century, and I've got no problem if they want to do it now.

You'll also noticed that every time Native Americans find a way to make money, suddenly white men have a problem with it. Say, for instance, they find gold or oil on their reservation, suddenly the white men decide they've got to violate the treaty and redraw the reservation boundaries. Why do you think so many reservations are so poor in the first place?

Frankly, I think the Makah have hit the trifecta. They get to hold traditional whale hunts, they get to make some much needed cash, and they get to piss of some white men who want to violate the treaty.

[Tyler Durden]

35. GOD I love IGNORE.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

36. Me too.

One of the best ways to win an argument is to have the other guys shoot themselves in the foot.

[Tyler Durden]

37. "AND THE HITS, JUST KEEP ON COMIN'!!!!"

CKLW, The Motor City!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Don't they though?

But I'm curious. Why call it "ignore" if you're paying it so much attention?

[Tyler Durden]

39. You know how you tell that one hasn't even taken you off IGNORE to read what you wrote?

You don't get a direct reply.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. You know how to tell you've one an argument?

You start a thread soliciting an opinion on an issue, then they put you on ignore for giving them your opinion.

[Tyler Durden]

41. And you have to reply to your own posts to say something.

This is much less frustrating than reading what you're posting. I admit I read the one about dogs but that was before you went back on ignore. I think that put me over the edge more than anything else.

[LostinVA]

42. I don't know who you're talking to -- all I see is "Ignore"

[Tyler Durden]

46. That's another reason why I love you.

It's fun in a perverse sort of way...you see, I can't read it either. I know who it is...I peaked when they just had two posts on the thread. Same old nasty drivel.

Much better this way.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

43. Why'd it put you over the edge?

What's wrong with respecting other dietary choices in other countries?

[IndianaJones]

44. What the heck is going on? nt.

[Tyler Durden]

45. I'm sort of responding to a member of my IGNORE list.

They keep posting, and I keep letting them know how GLAD I am I can't read what they are posting.

Sure, it's a little like LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, but they weren't playing nice anyway.

[lips]

49. Who says whales have intelligence....

My hat inna ring says:

Using intelligence of animals to validate or invalidate their persual for whatever reason borders on the insanely irrelevant.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. Pigs are intelligent.

About as intelligent as dogs.

That certainly doesn't make them any less tasty.

[Tyler Durden]

52. Welcome to DU and hopefully you don't broadcast that too much.

Your lack of sensitivity when this has already been shown to be a divisive and touchy issue doesn't bode well.

And the relative intelligence of cetaceans is a side issue: their slaughter for Japanese Yen isn't.

You sound familiar. Sock Puppet maybe?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

48. Tyler's ignoring me.

So he keeps responding.

Also, he started a thread about it. Because he ignores me so much.

[Tyler Durden]

47. Been fun, kids. Going home to dinner.

Might stop by later.

This cheered me up. I was sort of down due to the subject. I guess ol' BAHG can blame themselves for helping to improve my mood!

TA!