Why? Why on earth would anyone wear this?

[LibraLiz1973]

It really bothers me to see women demeaned in this way. Why is it necessary to completely cut them off like this, and rob them of an identity???

[MrSlayer]

1. Because they'll be gang raped and stoned to death if they don't?

Pretty good incentive really.

[SPKrazy]

2. A true statement

doesn't take away from the OP's statement about it demeans women by cutting them off.

You are right though, they have incentive to dress that way.

[MrSlayer]

3. I agree entirely that it's demeaning.

But I also see why they do it. It's a sad way to live.

[billyskank]

6. In a way, we did this to them.

Afghanistan wasn't like that before we started funding and arming the Islamic militants to "give the Soviets their own Vietnam." That picture above is the result of what we did, for those women.

[Rosemary2205]

11. With all due respect

Radical islamic militants aren't the only culture in the world to hold women under it's hobnail boot.

[billyskank]

13. What's your point?

:shrug:

[SPKrazy]

17. good point

our support of the roots of the taliban are in fact the reason that Afghanistan was taken back to the middle ages by the taliban.

[LibraLiz1973]

21. I understand what you mean and it breaks my heart

[Rosemary2205]

9. Yup.

If I lived in a society where my only choices were to slap on the blue burqa or else be murdered by my own family I'd slapp that sucker on too.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

49. Thats what I've said. While it is a vile practive, it is better than torture and death.

You can be sure as hell I'd where one if if I was a woman over there.

[BlooInBloo]

55. Now THAT'S what I call a reason.

[Deja Q]

4. To deter rampant sexuality on the part of men.

I'll agree, to wear tableclothes in such a manner is rather demeaning...

[idgiehkt]

5. only if you believe that men can't control their sexual response

which they can.

[Orsino]

10. Or, as it tends to be rationalized...

...to mute the volume on wanton women's sexuality, thereby keeping them from tempting men to immoral action.

Oh, I've heard some wonderful things said by women as to why they would choose to wear the veil/burka/etc., and that's all fine, but the underlying purpose of all the laws is to keep the ladies in their place. :mad:

Symbolic chastity belts.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. i think to call another cultures clothing 'tablecloths' is xenophobic.

[Spacemom]

7. I remember reading

that in some strict islamic cultures, if a man looks with lust upon a woman, it's considered the woman's sin.

A really sad way to live.

[idgiehkt]

8. "The Nine Parts Of Desire" is a great book

by a journalist who lived over there for quite a few years. She says that in the Koran it apparently says that Allah divided up sexual desire and gave 9 parts to the woman and only one to the man, meaning that women are innately overly lustful and this must be controlled. Sounds like projection to me. I think there is a cultural aspect to some of the manner of dress of desert peoples that has to be factored in, and also apparently the veiling started among the upper class women and was taken up by lower class women as an attempt to improve their status, at least that is the way legend has it.

But I think it's worked because it is so dehumanizing, these cultures seem all about controlling paternity (i.e. female sexual choice) and to remove someone from sight like this is a kind of exile that seems really effective at rendering them powerless.

[LibertyLover]

70. Hmm, if I'm remembering my Greek mythology correctly

it sounds like Allah was reading the story of Tiresias, the blind Greek seer who was turned into a woman by the gods and then back to a man. He reported that during sex, women had 9 times more pleasure than men.

[Arugula Latte]

12. Women get to pay the price for men's lust ... Nice, huh?

:grr:

[Skittles]

14. misogyny, pure and simple

male fear and hatred of women

[MissMillie]

15. not that I'm not going to agree how horrible this is

but there's part of your post that bothers me.

How I look is not my identity.

I agree that how I dress can be a way of expressing myself.

But if you were blind and couldn't see me, you'd find another way to identify me.

Just as it is wrong to force women to dress this way, it is also wrong to wrap womens' identities with their appearance.

[LibraLiz1973]

22. Here is what I meant by that statement Millie

I mean that I can wear crazy earrings, a Support Gore t-shirt, steel toe boots and a nose piercing and that is my prerogative.
They get NOTHING to separate them from every other woman. How wrong is that?
Getting dressed certainly does not give you an identity, but, it does give you the opportunity to express yourself.

Sorry you took offense- I should have explained my thoughts better

[MissMillie]

42. Sweetie, I wasn't offended

and I do know what you meant and as I said, I wouldn't argue against it.

I just think we need to be careful about the words we use, that's all.

:hi:

[dropkickpa]

16. Keep in mind

That in arid desert environments, loose volumous clothing helps to trap moisture near the skin, making cooling easier. I don't 100% agree with the modern reasons behind the clothing, but it DID and, in some areas, still does serve a practical purpose. I don't judge, not my place and not my culture.

[idgiehkt]

18. I noted that in my post, about the climate, but I do judge

I read the words of women oppressed by those cultures and I believe what they say. This is a very very complicated issue and the U.S. is responsible for so much 're-radicalization' of parts of the middle east that for us to express an opinion on what has happened is not wrong because as U.S. citizens we are already involved and some would say even culpaple to an extent.

[mykpart]

24. Don't blame Islam.

It happens in other male-dominated theocratic cultures, although maybe not to this extent. Look at what I found in GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1614889&mesg_id=1614889

[idgiehkt]

28. I don't believe that post mentioned Islam

one only has to think about nuns to realize that male-dominated religions tend to give the female body undeserved associations with sinfulness and demand it be covered. However nuns freely choose their style of dress, they aren't subjugated into it from fear of violence.

[hedgehog]

73. Mosat nuns habits were based on the clothing in vogue at the time the order

was established. It was only in the last two centuries that the habits started looking outlandish. Even the crazy hats some orders wore were based on the starched kerchiefs worn by peasants in some areas. Think of the little hats seen on Dutch dolls. At one time, the hats and veils served to protect the nursing sisters from catching head lice.

[Wesman 85]

77. are you honestly

comparing a head to toe burka with the clothing shown on those links? I find it intellectually dishonest to compare a mandate to a choice. That to me is like comparing forced abortion in China to the choice to have an abortion here, they are not the same. The women who wear the clothing from those web sites do so because they choose to, not because they are subject to stoning if they don't.

[DeepBlueC]

19. I wonder why men wear reflective white and women...

are stuck in black in most Middle Eastern countries? Except for those odd baby blue burkhas in Afghanistan.

[dropkickpa]

26. White reflects external heat

But it also will reflect internal heat back at the wearer. Black absorbs heat more easily, but it also allows the body heat to be transmitted easier. Often, too, white clothing is more expensive, reflecting rank. In the Taureg people, the higher a man's rank, the more covered up he is.

[LibraLiz1973]

23. I notice that the men aren't covered head to toe

And they are the ones that would typically be doing the most outdoor work, no?

[dropkickpa]

25. You mean like this?

All those guys look pretty covered up to me!

Taureg man


Taureg woman

[JI7]

29. the men aren't forced to dress that way as the women are

[dropkickpa]

40. Um, it's traditional

Just as it is for the women. A Taureg leader is not gonna suddenly decide to run around in a speedo because no one is forcing him to wear his robes. It's an ingrained cultural habit and tradition, which often has become codified after centuries.

Do you have the same amount of disdain for Hasidic women? They dress very modestly because of culture, religion, and tradition. I never hear people here revile the Hasidim for their attitudes towards women and dress, though there are many similarities.

[tigereye]

48. I guess there is always a part of me that is bothered by the thought

that women's bodies should be covered up so much, regardless of the tradition. Despite all my attempts to view it within the context of the religion or culture, it still bothers me quite a bit. It seems like a denigration of women. After women here had to fight so much for rights and the vote and equality, it seems like either going backward in terms of rights, or that many women around the world still have limited choices in this day and age.

It's my cultural bias, I suppose. ;) I just don't think women should have to cover up when men don't. :shrug:

[JI7]

50. my disdain is for those who force women to dress certain ways

and kill the women if they don't dress that way.

the fact remains that those men could put on shorts and a shirt and likely not be punished for it while a women who might show her face, or even something like her foot or arms would probably be killed. that's where my disdain comes.

[dropkickpa]

53. Oh

So it's okay if the women are just oppressed and forced to dress a certain way but not killed?

There are hundreds of different groups that have variations on robing and veiling, but Americans see a veil and think TALIBAN or Al Queda. So many americans fell for the whole "We're freeing the women of Iraq" bullshit when they were doing better than americans in many ways *prior* to our interference (they had a higher college enrollment than the US has ever had). We've set women's rights back about 100 years in Iraq, which I am sure Bushco is just crying buckets over.

It's okay to judge the brown people, especially muslims, but then we've been conditioned to not think or speak a bad word about anything to do with Judaism, so we ignore those same things in ultra-conservative Judaism that we revile in ultra-conservative islam and ultra-conservative christianity (though we usually just point and say "What a maroon!" when it's a white christian american woman).

I always get a very icky feeling when people start pointing at different cultures and saying things like "How could they? Ewww, I could never. What is wrong with those people?" etc etc etc, because I see a lot of subtle racism come out and that shit just ain't cool.

[JI7]

54. i never brought up Iraq

the Burqa when it comes to Afghanistan is forced. i never said i supported going into iraq to liberate women. i know women had it far better in Iraq under Saddam than they do now.

as for brown people, i'm of indian descent. i have seen Muslim women in India covered up but it's not forced there. i still don't like it but that wasn't what i was referring to in my previous posts.

and i don't like the american flag draped crap that fundie nationalisitic christians in the US wear either.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

57. If you've seen movies from Iran, you've seen scenes of women walking

around in long black coats, hijab, and maybe a chador over that, while the men who are with them are wearing short-sleeved sports shirts and khakis.

[hedgehog]

74. You haven't heard many commentaries on Hasidim, then.

There is plenty of criticism out there for the fact that women are treated as 2nd class citizens in many ways.

[LibraLiz1973]

41. Head to toe means FACE

I don't see any of those men covered the same way the women were.

That was my point- sorry you didn't understand.
Thanks for taking the time to get 8 pictures together to prove me wrong.
Good job.

[Deep13]

62. I can see their faces, except for the rider with a dust shield.

I don't know anything about the country you mention. In Muslim fundamentalist countries like Saudi Arabia, men may dress as they want. Women must not show their faces in public. Or drive. Or leave home without the escort of a male relative.

[hedgehog]

72. However, the men don't wear burkas. nt

[The Straight Story]

20. Because as bad as our society is

We have at least progressed whereas some societies have not.

We went through a whole civil rights movement, and survived it and thrived. We had, and have, a government not based on religion but on individual freedoms. Sure, it still has a ways to go - but it is way better than some places.

And that brings in a whole new argument really - remember how the Christians from the new world talked about bringing culture to the savages here? And in some ways I see the same here in this thread - they are not like us, and therefore repressed, and thus they need us to interject into their culture better ways (because only savages would have things like this).

[JI7]

30. those Christians wanted to bring their God to them, not help oppressed women

when it comes to helping the women there , many organizations , usually female ones already have been trying to get things done in that area.

look at IRaq which was one o fthe middle eastern nations where women did have many freedoms. yet we went there instead of Saudi Arabia.

those who force women to dress like that are savages.

[caty]

27. The rules that women

are forced to live under, in Muslim countries, are not God's or Islam's rules. These are man made rules.

http://www.submission.org/dress.html

http://www.submission.org/women/equal.html

[philosophie_en_rose]

31. Why would anyone wear this?

It really bothers me to see women demeaned in this way. Why is it necessary to completely cut them off like this, and rob them of an identity???


Anything can be demeaning. Whenever women are compelled to wear something that exploits or degrades her, it's unacceptable. However, there are women that choose to wear burqas and they don't deserve your judgment.

[WildEyedLiberal]

32. Was that girl in the bikini forced to wear it lest she be raped, mutilated, or killed?

It's about FREEDOM and CHOICE - that's the issue. Those women have no freedom, and even the ones who live in Western countries who "choose" to wear burqas aren't doing it because they love the fashion - they're doing it because it's the only way to find a suitable mate in their culture, or because their husband will beat them if they don't. You seriously think that just because they don't actually LIVE in the Middle East that they can't be culturally repressed, that their husbands can't force them to abide by the same ridiculously oppressive "culture" that they would in their native lands? I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that NO woman wears a full body burqa and face veil because SHE wants to.

[Heidi]

35. If the woman in the bikini is an American woman, she may be

influenced by our culture to define herself as the sum total of her physical parts. Perhaps the woman in the bikini is wearing that outrageous (by my own standards) get-up because she believes it's the only way to find a mate in our culture. Yes, some women dress like that because they want to, but there are many among us who dress provocatively because they don't know another way to exist. Their lives may not depend on them revealing their bodies, but if they _believe_ their identities/lives depend on it, what's the difference? :shrug:

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. I hear what you're saying

Believe me, I do - I'm a young woman on a college campus so the pressure to look a certain way is something I'm very familiar with.

However - and I think this is the key difference - while I agree with you that there's certainly societal pressure to look "sexy" - the consequences for failing to do so are not even remotely similar to those for Middle Eastern women who fail to dress in their culture's prescribed garb. At worst, an American woman who refuses to dress in revealing clothing might be a social outcast, be considered "uncool," or find it hard to get a date. She might experience emotional trauma as a result of that, which I am not belittling - I was definitely the recipient of all those consequences and more throughout high school.

However, these women in burqas don't simply face ostracism or lack of mates if they don't wear their burqas. They might be physically assaulted by their husbands, fathers, or complete strangers who decide that their clothing is "sinful." Even in the West, many of these women live in immigrant communities where the customs of their native culture are largely intact, so they still face a very real threat of physical or sexual assault if they break their prescribed dress codes. I'm certainly not blind to sexism in the West, but I have never felt physically at risk just by wearing whatever clothes I wished to that day, either from boyfriends or random strangers I pass on the street.

I really resent patriarchal religions and cultures that oppress women, whether it's Christian repression in the West or Islamic oppression in the East, or any other religion anywhere else that promotes this bogus idea that women have to be reined in and controlled and treated like pieces of chattel.

[Heidi]

37. I totally agree. My point is

that you and I view the expectations rationally: it's not the end of the world if we're not perfect, "sexy enough" or if we don't have a boyfriend. However, from the although unrealistic point of view of many young women, these things _are_ the end of the world. In some ways, it's like women who have eating disorders: we can tell them they look great until the cows come home, but this very often won't change their self-image.

I'm glad you're here, WildEyedLiberal. :hug:

:yourock:

[WildEyedLiberal]

39. Thanks

:hug: You make me feel so welcome here in the Lounge!

[Deep13]

61. Bad taste is not the same as institutional oppression. nt

[hedgehog]

75. LOL - that's what I thought of when I saw the original post!

Two sides of the same coin, if you ask me!

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Bryn]

38. Yikes!!

Yes, Sireeeeeeeeeee

[Bryn]

34. I recall a story about a lady wearing like this in purple

She was shot by the taliban in Afghanistan just because her ankle showed. She was the Mother of 6 children. It broke my heart when I read that. It probably just happened when wind blew her long skirt showing her ankle. I am soooo disgusted with so much misogynist. That's why I reject most of the Bible...too much misogynism in there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. for many reason, either the law or the culture or both.

[bamacrat]

45. I have actually heard a middle eastern man say ..

they have to dress like that because the men couldn't control themselves if they saw them uncovered. Maybe if for the last thousand years they could wear clothes that showed a little skin, the men over there would have built up a tolerance and wouldn't pounce when they saw an ankle.

[sniffa]

46. i dunno, the burqa fetishests are aLL over it

[JVS]

47. They might wonder why any woman would dress this way.

[JI7]

51. most women even in America don't wear thong bikinis

maybe they might decide to if they had that body. but unlike burquas in Afghanistan which women are forced to wear, it's not the case with bikinis.

[grace0418]

66. True, but American women aren't forced to wear thong bikinis by law in some cases

or by extreme negative social pressure in others. They choose to wear them, whether or not they should is another question.

[ruiner4u]

52. well it is a very pretty shade of blue...

i know im going to get flamed for this........

I understand how it bothers you to see women treated that way, buts it just hard for me to demean another persons culture. I dont know whats going through those women's minds, but honestly, neither do you.. This is a stock news picture that could have easily been taken off FoxNews, or National Geographic.

These two women could be scared, worried about being stoned, demeaned, and worried about mutilation <something cultural that I DO find disgusting>. Or, they could be happy, feel part of a tribe, be proud of their cultural identity, and lastly have faith that they are doing their god's will by dressing like that.

For you to assume that they are being cut off, and robbed of identity is both demeaning them and their culture. I understand that you are upset about what 'you' would find intolerable. However, nothing gives you the right to question another persons cultural heritage... the world is a very large place..

Just some food for thought..

[Phillycat]

58. I agree completely.

:thumbsup:

[mzteris]

56. there are different ways to look at it

(Not that I condone it, I just like to look at things from different perspectives, ya know?)

Anyway - I read an old short story some time back that had a section that really stuck with me about "women's dress". I finally had an old friend email it to me - so here's the excerpt:

****

"We See Things Differently" by Bruce Sterling

. . . "I'm Plisetskaya," she said, fluffing her yellow hair. "See? No veil." It was the old story of the so-called "liberated" Western woman. They call the simple, modest clothing of Islam "bondage" -- while they spend countless hours, and millions of dollars, painting themselves. They grow their nails like talons, cram their feet into high heels, strap their breasts and hips into spandex. All for the sake of male lust.


*****

The rest of the story is pretty good, too.

[davsand]

59. "A veil can help free women," is how it was explained to me.

She went on to say that if you are veiled there is less emphasis on your looks and more focus on who you actually ARE as a being.

I will also tell you the woman who said this is a contract lawyer in the health care industry, a law school lecturer, and active in the local Women's Bar Association. She is in no way "subservient" to her husband or any other male. She is a Muslim woman who does not wear a veil in her daily life, but when I asked her about it that was her response.

I have to be honest here, I was also pretty up front with her that I felt that the entire culture was demeaning to women, in part because of how I view the wearing of a veil. She is a Muslim feminist, and it was amazing to speak to her about the subject. I gained some very real insight into my own cultural bias as a result of our conversations.




Laura

[grace0418]

67. I've heard that same argument too. But for me it always goes back to the fact

that it is not voluntary in many, if not most, cases. Yes, women say they choose to wear it. But the reality is that they would face a lot of negative pressure if they chose *not* to wear it. And in some cases they are legally required. That's where I have a hard time with it.

[mzteris]

78. Interesting.

I think there were some very good reasons it may have "evolved" - but like anything every in the history of the planet - it can be twisted and abused and/or misunderstood by some groups.

This part: "if you are veiled there is less emphasis on your looks and more focus on who you actually ARE as a being" --- I find totally fascinating. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that were always true for everyone everywhere?

[davsand]

79. Absolutely. I felt the same way.

Sounds Utopian, and I'm pretty sure I'll never live to see it. But it sure is a nice idea...



Laura

[Deep13]

60. Oppression based on race or religion is a human rights violation.

For some reason the world still looks at oppression based on gender as mere cultural differences. I fully agree with the OP, this is dehumanizing. It is not that the women's identity is based on how they look, but rather seeing ones face is necessary to see who the person is. That's why it strips them of identity. They become nameless, expressionless drones.

[Schema Thing]

63. Where ever you are, you're always home?

[WinkyDink]

64. It is the wrong question. It rather is: WHY? WHY do MEN FORCE WOMEN to wear this?

[Deep13]

65. To protect a sense of indoctrinated propriety.

If you talk to men and often women in those parts of the world about gender equality, words like wrong, unnatural or sinful might be heard, but no real explanation. I suspect the average person does not know what he does it. It is just part of their cultural and religious indoctrination. What is the practical reason why Catholic priests cannot marry? Most have no idea. They just know the church requires it.

I suspect the foundations of these practices arose from the tribal norms of pre-Islamic Arabian societies. It was a way to help preserve the patriarchal society. Also, frankly, it was a way to protect the property rights men had in their wives and female relatives.

[Taverner]

68. because they are seen as "not human"

Sorry if I'm being politically incorrect, but religions have had the habit of subjugation of women for quite a while.

A fundamentalist Hindu widow is supposed to throw herself on the funeral pyre of her departed husband

Fundamentalist Christians forbid women to speak in church, lead worship services and make decisions in the home

The list goes on....

And if you retort that "well those are the extremists." well, the fundamentalists get their ideas from their own "holy" works, so don't be so quick to separate the followers from the word...

[grace0418]

69. You know, I try really, REALLY hard to be culturally sensitive and to see outside

of my western filters if possible. But I have to admit I have a weakness when it comes to seeing women dressed like this. It makes me so angry and so sad.

Just a few weeks ago I was driving home on a horribly hot and humid day. I was waiting at a light watching a family of four cross in front of me. The father was in a t-shirt, khakis and sandals, the two young children were in flip-flops, tank tops and shorts, and the mother looked like the photo above. I couldn't help myself, I got completely enraged when I saw that. Grrrr.

[SteelPenguin]

71. Various Reasons - Not All Bad

In certain locations there is definately an aspect of 'why piss off the wrong people'. It's not their husbands, but the roving bands of islamo-fundie enforcers in places like Afghanistan, Iran, and now Iraq, that they're afraid of. I have friends in Iraq (Iraqi friends) who started wearing the veil when they (not so often anymore) go out in public just to avoid getting harrassed. No need to draw attention to yourself when people around you are dying.

I also have close friends who are Iranian and have witnessed the differences in women wearing the full getup outside of the house, while inside the house they take them off and are wearing fashionable clothes and shoes and makeup, etc. I've been told that the veil is very liberating in certain circumstances. That it desexualizes them which allows them to assert their authority. To believe that a veil makes a woman subservient to a man, or her husband, is incorrect. Many of these families are utterly dominated by the women internally.

It's also interesting to note that there have been muslim women leaders of at least Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Turkey to my knowledge and they all at one point or another (or all the time) wore a hijab.

I mean seriously. Pakistan has had a hijab wearing prime minister, who are we to judge cultural dress as being oppressive?

I think it's a complex issue, but to react that it's automatically a misogynistic power move to keep women oppressed glosses over the truth of the cultural differences involved in many of the cases.

[LynneSin]

76. Because it beats being the main attraction at the Friday Night hangings

:cry: