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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:21 PM
Original message
Poll question: Justice League vs. Avengers
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 04:25 PM by elfwitch
Who would win?

JLA roll call:
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash (Barry Allen), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman

VS.

Avengers roll call:
Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Spider-Man , Hercules

Sorry, polls are turned off at Level 3.

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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Justice League in a walk...
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 04:24 PM by elfwitch
Hal Jordan as Paralax took out the entire Green Lantern corps and the Guardians of the Universe by himself. He alone could easily defeat the Avengers.

Even toe to toe, the JLA has got the Avengers beat on power and skill.
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. No answer for Superman
Unless the Avengers pack a Kryptonite lunch. Gotsta go with the JLA.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. even if they took out Supes
Flash is the fastest man alive. He could hit each of them 1000 times at light speed in seconds. They'd never get in a hit.
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Abaques Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. Wrong.... you forgot about Thor
Thor would take down Supes, although it would a hell of a fight.

Wizard did an article on this a few years ago and I agree with their reasoning.

Thor is as strong as Supes, almost as fast, and he most importantly, he is a living god.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. in a fight...
Thor could take down Supes because his power is magic based and Supes has a problem with magic. however Wonder Woman was once a full fledged goddess. In one story, many years ago, Wondy took Thor's hammer from him and beat the stuffins out of him. In any case, all GL would have to do is gather them up in a big green force field and drop them off in the void of space. Battle over.
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Abaques Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. I remember the Wonder Woman vs. Thor thing....
And I believe that she took the hammer after Thor had been beaten by Captain Marvel (which is a debateble outcome)...


I agree that GL would probably try that, but I'm giving Captain America the benefit of the doubt about being able to organize some tactics before the fight. Also, Thor would be able to break through any force field that GL put up. The ring is powerful, but so is the hammer.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. sure but you aren't counting on the fact that...
Hal Jordan was such a badass he took out the entire GL Corps. He destroyed the power battery on OA. AND... the ring has an auto-protect mode. Thor couldn't get in a hit fast enough to get around the rings auto defenses. And then Flash could move faster than they could even see. Anyone who relies on weapons for power is screwed because Flash would just gather them all up and hand them back their asses.
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SeanQuinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. JLA!!
JLA all the way.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Debatable, my ass
Cap Marvel is a composite of 6 Olympian deities and the wisdom od Solomon. Thor had as much chance as Argentina did in the Falkland War.
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #24
50. I own that issue...
And Thor beat Captain Marvel....
Pinned him under a ferris wheel...
The captain turned into Billy Batson to get out from under...
When he tried to turn back (Shazam!), Thor used his hammer to block the lightning bolt...
His hammer disappeared...
Billy was knocked out...
It reappeared near Wonder Woman, who picked it up, considered using it against Storm of the X-men, but refused to cheat...
Later still, WW would hand Thor his hammer...
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Justice League
they would take them
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. The Avengers, because the JLA isn't real.
Unlike Stan Lee.

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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And Jack "King" Kirby would...
drop Stanley Martin Lieber in a hearbeat. Jack was one bad mother! And he created Darkseid, the baddest of the baddies.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Emma Peel could take them all...
:)


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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. dammit! you beat me to it!
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YNGW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. The Justice League Has Superman.
You don't tug on Superman's cape. He'll kick your ass!
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
10. That Avengers blog has people coming over here just to vote!
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. must be beacuse...
No reasonable person could ever think that the Averngers could stand a chance against Supes and crew.
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curse10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Justice League, without a doubt
:-)
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Justice League...
Batman and Green Arrow could sit it out, too!

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Khephra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
41. If Batman was written by Grant Morrison
(like he did a few years back), Batman could take out the entire Avengers on his own without breaking a sweat. Heck, under Morrison, even GL Kyle was pretty badass.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. elfwitch, did you see the Wonder Woman reference on "Smallville?"
from the ep two weeks ago...

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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. nope...
Missed that one completely. Good catch!
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
17. Superman beats all of them.
nuff said.
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. WHY DO YOU HATE captain AMERICA SO MUCH?
:bounce:
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. he's a tool of "the Man"
Just look at him.
:spank:

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. What is it , ........the shield?!?!?
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 04:58 PM by underpants
:bounce:

Actually Captain America was always my favorite.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. sorry, dyed in the wool DC girl...
I want superheroes not genetic and nuclear accidents.
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Abaques Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
22. JLA, but not in a walk...
First off, get Spidey off the Avengers...


Cap is the best tactician in comics, so even though the Avengers do not match up well to this group, they would put up one hell of a fight.

Superman would fall to Thor, only to see a battered Thor fall to Green Latern.

Wonder Woman would fall to the Hulk, but Latern again would toss Hulky into orbit.

The Flash would take down the Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye.

Cap would take Green Arrow and Batman down.

Martian Manhunter would fall to Iron Man quickly.

Aquaman would destroy Hercules.

Green Latern then takes out Iron Man and Aquaman and the Flash take down Cap.



Yes, I am a comic geek.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Spidey has reserve Avengers membership
Although it hasn't been used in ages. His real identity is stored at their computer, but only the computer itself "knows". Hmmmm, I smell a storyline involving the PATRIOT Act...
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
25. JL should be able to win in a walk
but from what I know about comics, for some reason instead of being at full power the super heroes would only seem to have just enough power to scrap out the victory at the end after they learned a lesson about team work.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. no kidding...
If I had a Green Lantern ring, man, what I could accomplish. The most powerful waepon in the universe? Mmmmmm..... There would be no stopping me. I'd make Paralax look like Gnort.
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
28. I thought DC was a Repub Company
Seriously, I always thought DC was for rw comics fans and Marvel was for LW fans. I was shocked that the Avengers were not winning this one in a walk.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. You haven't been reading DC comics lately
They have been throwing in ALL KINDS of anti-* digs.
The artists and writers at DC are PISSED!
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WoodrowFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. no, I haven't
No, I haven't, not in almost 20 years. God, I'm old!! LOL. I have read a few more recent graphic novels for Batman and one (in which Batman's back was broken) seemed to have been written by a ditto-head. I HATED it. (Loved "The Long Halloween" though)
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Is Luthor still the POTUS?
I've stopped following for the last few years.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. Yes, he is...
Lex is still is POTUS and still BAD BAD BAD.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
64. Is that in reality or in fiction? Oh, both, of course. Silly me.
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Exultant Democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. comics are naturally anti-establishment
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Marvel = FOX. Think again. (nt)
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Ummm... NO.
How?
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #39
48. Good comparison, actually.
Marvel is like Fox in that: both specialise in glitzy technicolor pap with lots of teen angst that a lot of people mistake for quality entertainment.

Marvel can't compare with DC. DC, for the past few decades now, has been THE mainstream comics publisher taking risks, pushing the envelope of what can be done with the medium, allowing writers and artists to produce serious, complex, intelligent, ADULT stories. Published by DC, since the mid-80's: Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (written by Frank Miller); Batman: Year One (written by Frank Miller); Watchmen (written by Alan Moore); V For Vendetta (written by Alan Moore); Sandman (written by Neil Gaiman); Transmetropolitan (written by Warren Ellis); and many others...all of these are among the best and most seminal works in comics in the past 20 years. Marvel is NOT in the running, sorry. (And their superheroes aren't as good, either.)
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. Pap?!?
I beg to differ. While I agree that Miller's "Dark Knight" saga was great, and I really liked Moore's "Watchmen," DC has just not had the grabbing power of Marvel Comics. I believe other than the specialty titles, like the ones you mentioned, DC sales have not even come close to the success that Marvel has had. Its because of the movies, you say? Why do you think they made the movies in the first place? Good sense would say that if your going to make a movie, youre going to make it using the most popular characters. Not many DC movies made these days.

DC heroes better than Marvel? Well, since this began as an opinion thing, I have one thing to say: rubbish.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #39
65. Marvel is owned by News Corpporation = Murdoch = FOX.
Watch where your money goes.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nah, neither...
...Watchmen. Dr. Manhattan gets bored with the senseless fighting, turns them all into fictitious characters and goes to another galaxy to brood about losing his gal to the owl guy.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. The Avengers would clean the floor...
with the JLA!

What about Hawkman (or woman) for the JLA? Where's the Vision for the Avengers? Anyway its a moot point, the X-Men would crush them both!
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Are you on drugs?!?!?!
The X-Men? A bunch of genetic accidents taking down the world's mightiest heroes? Let's see....

Green Lantern could gather up the entire bunch in a big green bubble and leave their brooding asses out in space.

Flash could hit each one of them 1000 times a second until their insides fell out.

Martian Manhunter can turn intangible and pull their beating hearts out of their chests while he confuses them telepathically.

Superman could heat vision them from a safe distance in to little piles of dust.

All of the X-Men wouldn't stand a chance against any one of these members of the JLA much less the entire team.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Well actually....
I am on drugs. Stupid antihistamine, can't operate heavy equipment.

Here's how I think it would play out:

Once again the JLA would come on the scene bunched in a tight group, as they always have.

Professor X would disable Superman with a mental blast. At least long enough for Colossus to slip on the kryptonite restraints (these guys would be prepared; Superman's vulnerability to kryptonite is well known).

The Green Lantern/Cyclops fight would be pretty even. GL would try to smash Cyc with a lantern-powered huge fist, and a quick optical blast would disable him long enough to let Iceman freeze and immobilize him.

MM would be the easiest. Pulling out their hearts? Yea try doing that to Rouge. Shell suck up all of his groovy Martian powers and turn them back on J'onn J.

I agree, however, Flash would be the toughie! Howz this? Jean Grey/Phoenix could use her telepathy to dazzle the Flash while Wolverine gets his comeuppance and makes quick work of ol Speedy.

It probably wouldn't happen this way. Ideally, they would work together to fight the forces of evil. But, if it came to a dust-up, I think the X-men would take the day.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Sorry, wrong again...
Professor X would disable Superman with a mental blast.
He wouldn't have time because MM would already see that coming.

GL would try to smash Cyc with a lantern-powered huge fist, and a quick optical blast would disable him long enough to let Iceman freeze and immobilize him.
GL rings have built in defense systems that wouldn't let Cyclos get in a single hit. Iceman couldn't touch GL because Flash has got experience with ice-makers (Captain Cold). Barry knows how to deal with those sorts.

Yea try doing that to Rouge. Shell suck up all of his groovy Martian powers and turn them back on J'onn J.
Superman could easily take care of Rogue. He has dealt with Parasite often enough to know how to deal with power leaches

Jean Grey/Phoenix could use her telepathy to dazzle the Flash while Wolverine gets his comeuppance and makes quick work of ol Speedy.
They'd never be able to lay a hand on him. Flash can move faster than light. She couldn't see him long enough to get a lock. And MM would have already dealt with the telepaths.

Even at that, you still have Wonder Woman (almost as fast and as powerful as Superman, and a trained Amazon warrior) who if in battle armor could withstand anything Wolverine could dish out. Her armor was made but the Gods.

You still have Batman, the greatest tactician and detective in the DCU. His files on the JLA were enough to be able to bring them all down. Assuming that the JLA and the X-Men were living in the same universe, Bats would have files on them as well. he'd know their every weakness and be able to plan accordingly.

Final score: No fricken way ANYBODY in the Marvel Universe could take down the JLA.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. You must be kidding...
"Final score: No fricken way ANYBODY in the Marvel Universe could take down the JLA."

Juggy, Rogue, and Onslaught,Apocalypse, and Phoenix could take out EVERYONE in the JLA while they were busy destroying the the entire DC universe. Read: Wipe the floor with the lot of em.

Juggy-impervious and invulnerable.

Rogue-invulnerable to physical damage.

Onslaught- Kicked juggys ass reguardless of his invulnerability. 1 BAD dude.

Apocalypse- Do I even need to explain?

Phoenix - The strongest and most powerful of these, and dangerous beyond reason. I would go so far as to say she could take out JLA all by her lonesome, and without even breaking a sweat, or leaving the comfort of wherever she happened to be dwelling.

And everyone seems to have forgetting Proteus. That would be a huge mistake in battle.

"Superman could easily take care of Rogue. He has dealt with Parasite often enough to know how to deal with power leaches"

Does he know how to hurt she who can't be hurt? A draw, untill rogue whips out the kryptonite.













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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. uncanny x-men vs. JLA super 7
Still no contest. If we are just going to pull out any old DC vs. Marvel character to start a fight, then Darkseid would toast them all. The Quintessence (Ganthet, Zeus, Shazam, Highfather and the Phantom Stranger) is afraid of Darkseid.

Original point of this was super-team vs. super-team. And there is no way that Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye, Spider-Man , and Hercules (standard Avengers team) OR EVEN Cyclops, Beast, Jean Grey, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Storm, Wolverine (dream team X-Men lineup) could bring down the classic seven of the JLA.

Power for power, pound for pound, the JLA has them outgunned, outmatched, and outmaneuvered.
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WillParkinson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. The Justice League...
If you ever watch cartoons (OK, fine, I admit it...) you'd see that not too long ago Static Shock beat the Justice League single-handed. Of course the fact that they were being controlled didn't help them any.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
51. The X-Men?
Spider-Man whupped up on the X-Men by himself (Secret Wars, 1985).
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. But didn't he have "help" ?
Wasn't it because he had acquired the alien symbiote costume that made him all freaky strong and fast. It was along time ago, but I thought that was the reason he whipped up on everybody. He couldnt have done in in his regular form.
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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. can't remember
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 02:10 AM by lazarus
If he had gotten the symbiote or not. But he hadn't gotten used to it either way.

Wolverine did sit out, basically laughing at them.

Spidey vs Wolverine was a great one-shot. Showed that the two of them basically came down to who was willing to kill the other one, because there was no beating into submission.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
66. He was just running away
Slowed them enough to make his escape.
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Paragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
40. Obviously, it would be a tie
Too much pride at Marvel & DC to ever write "a winner" in that battle.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
42. JLA
The Hal Jordan Green Lantern, Superman, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter are heavy hitters. Lantern could take the Hulk into space and release him, causing his lungs to decompress. Then, the rest is mopping up.
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FreeperSlayer Donating Member (666 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
43. jl
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
44. Googlefight: Justice League
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aquaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
47. This one is easy.............
Duh, Justice league of course.
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Abaques Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
49. I have re-thought my answer.....
...and I have come to the conclusion that the Authority would wipe the floor with both teams combined....



Why? Because no super-team of super-heroes is meaner then the Authority. Thats why.






GOOOOOOOOO Facist super-team!!!!!!!
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
52. Is this pre-Parallax Hal Jordan?
Because if it's after he destroys the Green Lantern corps, he doesn't even need the rest of the Justice League.

I still thing that the JLA wins.
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elfwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. it would be pre-Parallax
But even pre-freak-out Hal was the baddest ass GL in the corps. He was one guy that knew how to sling a ring. He was such a bad-ass that he is now the Spectre (the wrath of God).
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PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I find myself warming up to Kyle now
Especially after he teamed up with Oliver Queen Green Arrow in that series about a year ago or so.
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PittPoliSci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
56. Avengers
the Hulk could waste everyone but Superman by himself. Everyone else could bring down superman, assuming they've packed their kryptonite, which they would, cause they would know what they were up against and come prepared. It would be even less even if Spiderman is wearing his Symbioitc gear.
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