American Idol - Is it the music industry standard now???

[kid a]

My daughter is a singer/songwriter who, since the age of 12, has been writing songs, playing guitar, singing and performing at festivals, fairs, and clubs. She is 18 now, has a CD produced and is shopping it to labels. She has had some interest from a few indie labels and will most likely be touring a larger festival circuit - building a small, grassroots fan base - this summer and fall.

She is constantly asked the the same question, almost every day she does a gig.
"Why don't you try out for American Idol!!!!!...You're so good!!!!"

She gets so red in the face with anger at that remark. Literally steaming with anger at the power that show has commanded in the industry.

My wife, on the other hand, argues that American Idol is just a looking glass into the industry that has been that way for 20 years. Big corporate labels with a cookie cutter pipeline packaging pop, rock, and country into 3:30 minute radio slices - that's commercial music - live it or leave it. Musicians catching the big break!

But my daughter insists that AI and other music reality shows have watered down the art and craft of music to a very low state.

Is any exposure good exposure in the entertainment industry?? Are Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Daughtry, and Fantasia, etc...making the music they've always dreamed of??

[twilight_sailing]

1. "She gets so red in the face with anger at that remark."

I'd be proud of that kid. :)

[Donnachaidh]

2. oh dear god NO!

My son has had the SAME experience as your daughter. He writes, sings and plays two instruments. And a day doesn't go by without some person telling him to try out.

American Idol just LOWERED the bar for celebrity wannabees. It's NOT the standard for good music. FAR from it.

[azmouse]

3. I doubt anyone who has some measure of fame from AI

would be in that same place without the show. But are any of them really good? I don't know.
I've found that as I get older I like music less and less. It all sounds the same to me... horrible.

[LostinVA]

6. Yes, some of them are very, very good

Both winners and runners-up.

[azmouse]

8. I'll have to take your word for it.

The only one I would even remotely consider buying an album of was Elliot from last season.

[LostinVA]

11. There's been lots of talent on that show

[silvermachine]

26. No individuality though...

...Sure, some of the singers have a potent set of pipes, but they don't have an ounce of individuality or originality to them. Not a single one that makes it to the finals, at least. But then again, those qualities are not what it "takes" to be an American Idol. You are a product. Period. Pure and simple. Any rough edges, eccentricities, quirks, signs of independent thought, etc. are jettisoned in favor of the generic so you'd better be ready to be as malleable as you can. All the females are either Whitney/Mariah oversinging wannabes or Shania pseudo-country barbies. The guys? Well, let's just say neutered pablum of various ilks. To be honest, Kelly Clarkson has been the one that has "strayed" the furthest from her AI "roots", and she will probably have the most enduring career. And really, she's just a step up from the others, hardly a revolutionary or distictive talent. But this is to be expected with a panel as shallow and tacky as the AI crew. Randy is the least offensive, but neither Paula or (especially) Simon has a keen aesthetic bone in their body. This is really ironic in Simon's case since he is usually the harshest critic. The man's taste is so gauche as to be amusing and appalling at the same time. Of course, for him, it's all about packaging someone to appeal to the lowest common denominator. He truly knows NOTHING about music. Really. Some of his remarks are so wrongheaded that it is beyond belief. I mean, this is the person that gave us fucking "Il Divo"! Case closed.

[theboss]

33. I don't like the man, but it's hard to say that Clay Aiken is not original

When I look at him or hear him, I can't think of any other performer in history that he reminds me of.

Now, his taste is dreadful, but I don't think that should be necessarily held against him. He's a performer, not a songwriter. Artists like him need to be fed good material, and he is being fed crap.

Besides, Paul McCartney and Rod Stewart have dreadful taste too at times.

[silvermachine]

38. I wouldn't say original....

...unique looking perhaps. But I don't find his voice to be that distinctive. A latter day Leo Sayer perhaps? OK, that was cruel. He has a good (as in range, pitch, etc.) voice but not particularly original. No more so than James Blunt, really. Just my opinion, though.
Paul writes most of his own songs, aside from the covers in the early days of the Beatles. Rod, not so much. Ronnie Lane wrote most of the best Faces' songs anyway:toast:. Rod's choice of covers isn't always so bad. Sometimes the interpretation leaves much to be desired though....

[PLF]

4. She needs to create her own record label.

Is is rather easy to file the copyright paperwork for the music and make it officially published.

CD production is not that much, about a thousand bucks for a thousand pressed CDs.

After that she could search for a distribution deal.

In the long run your daughter will be much better off. Just ask Ian McKay and the Minor Threat members who run Dischord.

If she gives away the rights to her songs just to get a few CDs pressed she will forever be screwed out of all that effort.

[Warpy]

5. American Idol seems to be for singers who perform lounge music

that somebody else has written. I think your daughter is better than that. She's certainly right about the nature of that show.

Her chances of making it big are slim, but her chances of making a living may be decent if she's willing to do backup from time to time.

I haven't seen much out of AI winners. It seems they're celebrities for a year or two and then they just fade away, probably back into a life of singing in lounges.

[mvd]

23. Kelly Clarkson, Fantasia, and Carrie Underwood have done

very well. I actually really enjoy Kelly's Breakaway, and Carrie's CD is also solid.

[theboss]

36. Most of the Motown label recorded songs others had written

I don't think that the song-writing credit should necessarily matter.

[crikkett]

7. AI is no worse than Solid Gold was in the 80s

except SG showcased *professional* singers and dancers, not amateurs.

[theboss]

19. AI is far far far better than Solid Gold

Solid Gold was lip-synching to bad dance routines.

There is no way you get to the final, say, five on AI without some talent.

[rocktivity]

9. You've asked the $64,000 question

Are Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Daughtry, and Fantasia, etc...making the music they've always dreamed of??

If they've dreamed of being young and looking hot while belting out someone else's tunes, sure--but your daughter doesn't sound like that kind of a girl. :)

American Idol OWNS you artistically--if she won, she'd have to forget about her songwriting. Better she should stay on the grass roots-indie music track.

:headbang:
rocknation

[LostinVA]

12. Most of the people you mentioned write and perform their own songs

Especially Clarkson and Chris Daughtry.

[LostinVA]

10. Not true at all -- Clarkson & Underwood especially have done well

Underwood just won Grammys in a VERY choosy genre, and won some CMAs this year. She also has a very successful career. Same for Clarkson, who is a smart cookie, and exploited a loophole in her 19 Entertainment contract. She is a very successful singer/songwriter, and has also won Grammys.

Jennifer Hudson, a runner-up, won a Golden Globe for Best Supporting Actress this year, and is the favorite to win the Oscar in the same category.

Others have also down quite well, both in the music industry and on Broadway, etc.

There are always some very good singers in the finals, along with some less than stellar ones. And, many of them DO write their own songs and play instruments -- they just aren't allowed to on the show.

[rocktivity]

21. "Many of them DO write their own songs and play instruments

they just aren't allowed to on the show."

I rest my case.

:headbang:
rocknation

[cmkramer]

44. Actually it was Clay who found the loophole

Or rather his lawyers. One story has it that he found out that he was getting endorsement offers that the show never told him about because they wanted Ruben to be part of the deal or because they were for products that were in competition with AI sponsors. When he left 19M, both Kelly and Clay ended up going with The Firm. When Simon Renshaw left The Frim to start his own company Strategic Artists Management, he took Clay and The Dixie Chicks with him.

What happened with Kelly is that she chose not to re-up her contract with 19M mainly because they didn't back her up when she wanted to go a more Janis Joplin route with her second CD.

[LostinVA]

45. Interesting, I read her lawyer found it and she shared the info with him

Regardless, she made the smart move!

[bleedingheart]

13. How different is American Idol from the old radio programs?

young talent was scoped out...if they were good enough, they were asked to be on the radio to perform and generally the disc jockeys would ask the audience to call or write in (back in the 30's..people didn't always have phones).

[slj0101]

14. Your daughter should stick to her principles.

If she thinks AI is an industry churning out sanitized, prepackaged ditties for the masses (which it is), then she should go the other way. It sounds like she is another Neko Case or Ani DiFranco in the making. Best of luck to her. :thumbsup:

[theboss]

18. When was the record industry not sanitized, prepackaged ditties?

Anyone who thinks that Bob Dylan was somehow "genuine" never met Albert Grossman.

Anyone who thinks that the Sex Pistols were "real" never met Macolm McLaren.

Heck, a large portion of the Beatles' genius lies with George Martin, who was producing comedy records before he hooked up with them.

Did you know that the only band member who played an instrument on the Byrds' first single was "Roger McGuinn?" All the other parts were played by session musicians who worked with the Beach Boys.

The Grateful Dead became the Grateful Dead beacuse a record executive spent a day in San Francisco, realized there was money to be made, and signed anybody with a guitar.

[slj0101]

24. I never said it wasn't.

But if the OP's daughter would rather try to break into the biz on her own terms, than I wish her the best.

And yeah, I knew about the Byrds using session musicians, as well as the Beach Boys, the Beatles and the Stones.

I guess I just long for that romantic, nonexistent era when "units" were known as "albums" and "markets" were known as "fans."

[William Bloode]

15. American Idol is just that "American".

They are in no way looking for real artists. They are just looking for what they think they can sell. I almost died when i heard it said Simon saying he would take Kelly Clarkson over Dylan! Thats blaspheme.

[Left Is Write]

16. I'm inclined to agree with your wife.

Corporate-run record labels have been stamping out their cookie-cutter acts since long before American Idol came on the scene.

[theboss]

17. How is it any different than American Bandstand?

For 40 years, you couldn't have a top ten record without having some brain-dead teen from Philly explain that the beat was good.

I'm a record buff. I own 800 albums. I have stuff from old Hank William singles to Sinatra to every Bob Dyland record ever made to punk bands that no one has ever heard of.

And from what I can tell, there are only two artists in history who made fantastic, revolutionary music that also sold well. They are:

Frank Sinatra during the Columbia years
The Beatles from 64 to 69.

That's it. That's the list.

Dylan never had a number 1 single. And I don't think any album of his ever topped 2 million in sales. Lou Reed had one top ten hit in his career. The Ramones never had a gold record.

So, whatever era you are pining for never existed.

Anyway, the artists who have won American Idol have generally been pretty interesting. Kelly Clarkson is a fairly interesting singer who seems to have good taste in material.

There is no way anyone like Ruben Studdard or Clay Aiken would have been signed to a record label without AI. I don't know how you market a 300-pound black man with an affinity for the Carpneters or a weird little white guy with a bad haircut, an indeterminate sexuality, and a voice suspiciously like Stevie Wonder's. Fantasia...I didn't care for. Carrie Underwood is interesting, and has apparently been completely accepted by Nashville...which is kind of bizarre when you think about it. Nashville let an Englishman, a black bass player, and Laker girl choose their next Superstar.

[silvermachine]

30. Reality check......

<<<And from what I can tell, there are only two artists in history who made fantastic, revolutionary music that also sold well. They are: Frank Sinatra during the Columbia years The Beatles from 64 to 69.>>>

Sorry, but Bullshit.

Rolling Stones
Nirvana
Who
Kinks
Dylan (yes, Dylan)

Just to name a few. And yes, I knew all the little trivia that you think only you know.

There are are countless others. And having 800 albums is no big whoop, sorry. I too, have an extensive vinyl collection (20,000) and much like you, it ranges from Patsy Cline to Stockhausen to Miles Davis to Wire to well...you name it. And I'm not nearly as cynical as you seem to be. Plus, I have been a performing musician for over 30 years and certainly know about the phony nature of the business. The fact is, the business was more open and receptive years ago than it is now, perhaps only by accident mind you, because after the Beatles, record companies would sign up almost anyone, even if they didn't understand the band or their music because they didn't want to miss out on the next big trend. Today, a major label would never even take a chance on a band like the Velvet Underground, King Crimson or Van der Graaf Generator, let alone allow them the type of artistic freedom that those bands enjoyed. Sure there were always manipulators (Colonel Tom, Dick Clark, even Kim Fowley and Phil Spector), but it is even worse now.

[theboss]

32. I think two things are happening in the music industry right now

1. We are in one of the typical creative lulls that seems to come up every ten years or so. "How Much Is That Doggie in The Window" was wiped out by Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Buddy Holly and Little Richard. Then Elvis got drafted, Jerry Lee married his cousin, Buddy Holly died, and Little Richard found Jesus. And popular music kind of sucked for six or seven years.
Then came the Beatles and the Stones....and we had another quality era until about 1970 or so.

And then came the Donny and Marie/Bobby Sherman/David Cassidy Era.

Then in the late 70s came punk and new wave, which to be totally honest, never came close to the sales of Disco. I would venture to guess that the Bee Gees moved more product in one month than Elvis Costello (whom I love) moved in his career. At that point, I would say, that "alternative" music began, in that there would be an "alternative" to the mainstream, corporate music which would always dominate. And this was the case until Nirvana, which ushered in a five or six year period where alternative became the mainstream. And then ended when the industry co-opted alternative. I think Fruitopia was the turning point.

And since about '99 or so we've been in another down period, creatively. This down period has been extended because of:

2. The complete and total collapse of the former distribution network. Rolling Stone this week has a chart that shows that album sales in January are at an all-time low. The number 10 album on the charts in January, 1997 moved more units than the number one album in January, 2007. No one goes into record stores anymore and buys an album. Everyone plays around on I-tunes or sharing services which is good in that it gives everyone a chance, but bad in that there is no "permanence."

I really think that if I was 16-year-old now, my entire perspective on music would be different. At any point in history, buying music was a commitment. If I wanted the new - I don't know - Jesus and Mary Chain record, I had to a) save enough money for it, b) get someone to drive me to a store, c) buy it, d) drive it home, and e) sit down and listen to the whole damn thing a few times. At that point, I had an investment in it. And I was sort of forced to hear it the way the band wanted me to hear it. So, there was this "relationship" there. There are dozens of records that I hated on first listen that eventually grew on me, because I figured if I owned the damn thing I had better give it a chance. Also, I did most of this in isolation. I was, like, 19 before I realized that there were other Morrisey fans in the world. They weren't falling out of the woodwork in West Virginia.

Now, you can immediately listen to Fall Out Boy's record before it is released, form a quick opinion, hear a million other people's opinions, and sort of be done with it immediately. You can spend $.99 on a song, listen to it three times, and delete it from your Ipod forever.

I don't think anyone in the industry - artists included - have figured out how to deal with this.

[silvermachine]

37. I agree with much of what you said here...

...and my apologies for coming off kind of snarky in my previous email. One thing that has been exagerrated though, is the supposed "death" of the the CD. While the sales of CDs have decreased overall, CD sales still make up nearly 90% of the music sold, with online sales accounting for about 10%. It's just that most people buy them online instead of going into a bricks and mortar store.
I know what you mean about having to play an album many times before liking it. I grew up in a tiny steeltown in Western Pa and believe me, no one else was listening to Chrome or Hawkwind there either, but I put it down less to having a "relationship" with the disc/artist than it just being a matter of me warming to it or not. Some things ya just don't "get" the first few times around!
I've never had any trouble finding good music from any era, really. To me, there is a ton of great music around, you just have to be able to find it. You sound like the type of tenacious listener that will do what you have to do to discover new artists that you can get excited about. I do agree that the state of "popular music" is as dire as it's ever been right now, though. BTW, the Fruitopia remark was brilliant!

[theboss]

39. Oh...I still find good bands....though I pretty much rely on Sirius now

Sirius channels 18, 24, 25, 26, and 30 have been a god-send to me.

My understanding is that the total CD sales do include things like Amazon. Maybe I am wrong. I do know that every few weeks, I am shocked by the fact that first week sales of 75,000 are now considered strong. 15 years ago, that would have been a disastrous debut for an established artist.

The other area of the music industry that is generally in the dumps is concert sales. The only artists that generate any excitement on the road are the greybeards like Jimmy Buffett. I wonder if we are ever going to see a modern, relevant band selling out stadiums again.

[silvermachine]

40. Overall sales are down...

...down quite a bit, too. But the percentage of music that is being purchased is still between 80%-90% factory produced CDs.
Some new(er) bands still sell out stadiums, like Radiohead, and I noticed that bands like The Killers and some nu-metal bands play huge venues, but yeah, big concert revenues generally go to the dinosaurs. That's ok with me though. I'd rather be in a sweaty club with the music right in my face any day, even though I'm approaching 50. Rapidly.

[theboss]

42. Where are you getting that 80 to 90 percent figure?

Not doubting it, though it seems a tad high.

Anyway, I am sure there is a lot of "off-the-books" music acquisition these days.

[silvermachine]

43. Here's a link...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/maney/2007-02-13-online-sales-music_x.htm

<<<If digital downloads are going to take off, they probably need to be DRM-free, simpler to buy and much cheaper. Then again, that will only happen with the record companies' blessing, and since they get 90% of their revenue from CD sales, maybe they just don't care about taking digital downloads to the mass market. >>>+


I was very surprised as well. This was mentioned on NPR as well just a couple of days ago. I believe they said 83% were factory produced CDs.

http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/music/features/article2268051.ece

<<<Yet the unstoppable advance of digital downloading means that the financial model on which the music industry has been built is crumbling. Hopes that legal downloads would compensate for the fall in sales of CDs were hit by a slowing up in growth last year. According to the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry global music sales fell overall by 4 per cent in the first half of last year despite the almost doubling of digital music sales (which accounted for around 10 per cent of total revenues)

[silvermachine]

31. Also, concerning Dylan

<<<Dylan never had a number 1 single. And I don't think any album of his ever topped 2 million in sales.>>>

Blonde on Blonde--Double platinum
Blood on the Tracks--Double Platinum
Desire--Double Platinum

Plus the Greatest Hits Volumes 1 & 2 are both over 5 Million in sales, though I realize they aren't proper studio albums.

[PVnRT]

20. I think your wife is right

Bubble-gum, throwaway pop music has been an industry standard for decades. AI just puts it on TV and makes it a spectacle.

[MemphisTiger]

22. I remember an interview where Clarkson was glad to be out

of the contract for AI. It's very restrictive.

Your daughter is going to have to come to terms with the fact that she won't always be able to make the music she wants to make until she is established and has a following. The music business is a "business" and the product isn't just songs it's the celebrity package. You can keep you artistic expression and probably never get signed or on a small label or you can sell out and sell and maybe go platinum.


I know a lot of guys that play night club gigs around town who make albums to sell there and make a living being a musician but aren't played on the radio except for one show where unsigned music is played at some obscure time on radio.

[mvd]

25. Ok, here's my take

She is right that Americal Idol looks for commercially viable artists. Their creative control will likely be limited at first. But Kelly Clarkson broke away from Idol on her CD Breakaway, and Katharine McPhee's first CD sounds little like what she did on the show. Katharine's CD still follows a different commercial trend, though: pop-inflected R&B. It all depends on the kind of music she wants to make. If she wants to make music like Bjork's, AI would be a waste of time. But otherwise, it COULD be a springboard to better things.

[johnnie]

27. You're wife is right, but it's been longer than 20 years

The music industry has always sold and marketed pop music and artists. There is nothing wrong with that either in my opinion.

American Idol is just another "Star Search" show that only has singers and does a good job at entertaining people. It has nothing to do with telling people what they should like.

It will take on hell of a revolution to bring back the industry in the way your daughter would like it to be. The music industry (mainly recorded music) was the downfall of the "artistic" musician. It became to corporate and screwed over the listeners because they could.

That is until the Internet took off. Good bands and artists don't need to get on their knees just to have other people listen to their music. Artists can become their own agent and promoter. The Internet is the best thing to come along for "artists" in a long time. It just needs to be used correctly. The music industry took a huge hit after computers and the Internet and they deserved everything that was coming to them.

If someone is thinking about becoming a huge star and making millions, they have as much chance as they ever did, but if you are only in it for the money, then American Idol might be the way someone would want to go. In my opinion, if you are in it for the love of money, then music isn't your passion.

American Idol had absolutely nothing to do with Fabian, Debbie Gibson and Tiffany. I know I always posts these types of threads, but it isn't because I am sticking up for American Idol, it's because I think sometimes people gloss over the past and want to "blame" what is popular. It has always been hard to break into the "music industry" and nothing has changed. But today, an artist can control much of their own music, promotion and distribution. If they are good at what they do, they have a good chance at making a living out of their music. It takes talent and a lot of doing things.

[Burma Jones]

34. True True, Idol's Nothing New

They just have a snot-ass Brit instead of Ed McMahon

What I really would like to see come back is the Gong Show......But you really need Chuck Barris and Jaye P Morgan to pull that one off

[begin_within]

28. Being on "Idol" is a good way to get nationwide exposure, that's for sure.

But getting a record deal with those people would be a losing proposition for the singer. If anything, I think it's good to get on the show, but get off the show before it ends - Jennifer Hudson is an excellent example.

[MsKandice01]

29. I think exposure is key...

And when you're on the most highly-rated show in the United States week after week, I'd have to say that's pretty damn good exposure.

Besides, Carrie Underwood and Chris Daughtry both are doing the kind of music that they originally intended. The best outcome, actually, would be for her to make the top 12 but not be the winner. That way she wouldn't have to sell her soul to AI's producers (except for the time they have to go on tour).

[NashVegas]

35. Who Is Doing the Asking?

Business insiders, wannabee business insiders, or fans?

[edbermac]

41. Nothing but elevator music.