Idiotic bumpersticker I saw on the way to work this morning...

[NewWaveChick1981]

:grr: :nuke: On a Freepermobile, no less... :(

LET HIM WHO WANTS PEACE PREPARE FOR WAR! And the "PREPARE FOR WAR" was in bold red letters. Additional paraphernalia on the Hummer in question: NRA sticker, yellow "Support our Troops" ribbon, "Abortion is Murder" bumper sticker, and "W the President" sticker. :mad:

OK, "Abortion is Murder" according to their logic. So how is killing people in a war NOT murder???? :grr: And the "Let Him Who" part is, I believe, grammatically incorrect. (Shouldn't it be "Let He Who..."?)

[billyskank]

1. ...

:hug:

[Mad_Dem_X]

2. Isn't it funny...

how the ones who are so vehemently opposed to abortion are at the same time pro-war and pro-death penalty? :crazy:

[billyskank]

6. Ok. at the risk of getting flamed here

that is not the complete logical contradiction it is usually made out to be on here.

The death penalty is at least meted out in response to a crime that a person committed. But whatever the merits in the a case of an abortion, in no way can it be argued that the foetus did anything to deserve it.

So the two issues do not mirror each other. Capital punishment involves the criminal only, whereas abortion is an issue that affects two individuals. In my opinion the error that both sides of this debate tend to make is that both see the issue entirely from one side: from the point of view of the foetus on the abolitionist side, and from the point of view of the mother on the pro-choice side.

On the death penalty, actually I could be convinced that some crimes may be so heinous as to justify it. Not that I am calling for it to be reinstated in Britain, where I live - I am also happy not to have it. But a more important issue than the death penalty itself is the preponderance of poor people (and particularly poor black people) on death row. Also children and mentally ill people. All too often these people did not get adequate representation during their trial, and a certain number must surely be innocent even.

I just wish people would not simplify these issues to the point of ridiculousness. And both sides are guilty of this, us and the freepers. They have their talking points and so do we.

[madinmaryland]

9. Well stated Billy!

That was a very insiteful post!

:thanks:

[BarenakedLady]

11. Good morning billy!

:hi: :hug: :loveya:

While I won't flame you. I will say just that the anti-abortion crowd like to point out that abortion = murder. Does not the death penalty also = murder? If one is to say that murder (any murder) is wrong, does it matter what the conditions behind it are? I don't know? I'm definitely pro-choice, and I don't see abortion as murder. I worked in the prison system for 5 years (as a secretary, handling prisoners records, etc), I was about 3 credits shy of getting a degree in Criminology (:banghead: ) I've seen some pretty heinous things. I still don't think I could ever support the death penalty. But, then again, I don't know. I can sometimes be pretty wishy washy.

...and I've totally lost my train of thought and have no idea what I was trying to say...

:rofl:

Oh I think it was something about hypocrisy.

[Mad_Dem_X]

14. You got it

If all murder is wrong, wouldn't it stand to reason that capital punishment and sending kids to war is also wrong?

BTW, I am pro-cap. punishment in *some* (extreme) cases, and I believe that abortion is a personal matter for a woman to decide.

[billyskank]

15. Hi BnL

:hi: I hope you are well. :hug:

It depends what, then, you mean by murder. Wikipedia says: Murder is both a legal and a moral term, that are not always coincident. It may be legal to kill, but still murder in the moral sense.

If you take the moral position that all killing is murder then abortion and capital punishment are indeed both murder. On the other hand, if by murder you mean unlawful killing them neither abortion nor capital punishment are murder, since both (in your country) are legal.

But the point I was arguing against was the proposition that being anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment was a logical contradiction, where in fact it is not necessarily the case. I just wanted to point out that the issue was very complicated and boiling it down to simple memes that can be stuck on a bumper sticker is not in fact particularly helpful. I don't particularly care either for "you kill babies" or "you hate women" because neither do any justice to the issues being discussed.

I'm not sure what I mean now anyway, but I had better get my coat...

[BarenakedLady]

16. Why, are you cold?

I agree it is a complicated matter. Which is why I don't go into GD or get involved with most debates. I always try to see both sides to any issue, which leads me to get confused and confuddled and wishy washy. Plus I doubt myself on all occasions. I just wanted an excuse to talk to you. :)

I'm doing ok btw. How about you? :hug:

[billyskank]

17. Doubt is good. I doubt almost everything I say - I am frequently wrong.

I am quite well thanks. I am glad you are ok too. :hug:

:loveya:

[NewWaveChick1981]

21. Excellent point, billy.

:hug: These issues are not mere talking points, but they've been reduced to such. :(

[Left Is Write]

32. But when argues against abortion by saying "Human life is sacred"

while simultaneously supporting war or capital punishment, there is definitely a logical disconnect.

What they should be saying is that some human life is sacred and some humans deserve to die.

I do not agree with anti-choice views, but I can respect the view a whole lot more if they are against taking human life across the board.

[Rambis]

12. It is consistent

Bush and the pugs hate the UN yet we go to war to enforce UN resolutions?

[NewWaveChick1981]

19. The logic escapes me.

:eyes: I've noticed that too...

[Ilsa]

36. Not all of them. Occasionally I run into someone who is very

anti-abortion (under any circumstances) and they are also anti-death penalty and anti-war because of the killing, and I think it may be a religious conviction they are following and at least are not hypocritical on. But they are scary people also.

[Jokerman]

3. Let him who wants war - ENLIST!

What a wanker.

[NewWaveChick1981]

22. Exactly.

:hi:

[crim son]

4. Pig.

I'd like to lock up all the "warriors for peace" and let them fight it out amongst themselves. They lack fundamental understanding.

[NewWaveChick1981]

23. Yes indeed.

"You gotta kill somebody to prove that killing is wrong." :eyes: :grr:

[BarenakedLady]

5. Oh geez

My eyes would have rolled out of their sockets if I saw that....

Yes, I believe it should read "Let he who"...

Idiots

[NewWaveChick1981]

24. I thought the grammar was indeed faulty.

:hi:

[AllegroRondo]

7. Ask him why he wasnt preparing for war himself

and hand him some enlistment papers.

[NewWaveChick1981]

25. Precisely...

:hi:

[Orsino]

8. Well, my problem with the bumpersticker...

...would be its emphasis on war. Recognizing that, sooner or later, an enemy is going to cross your border and attempt to kill/control you is merely realistic. A real department of defense or militia is necessary for any nation that wants to continue to exist, and fighting off or even killing invaders does not equate to murder in my book.

Using the slogan to excuse any war of invasion/conquest/vanity, though, is the height of hypocrisy, particularly when the sloganeer has no intention of fighting it himself.

[NewWaveChick1981]

26. Yes, I didn't see Hummer Boy ready to enlist.

Given the other stickers, I would say he bought into all the talking points about how well the war is going. :grr: A country preparing to defend itself is something I expect from any sovereign nation and is defintiely realistic. But the context of the bumper sticker was pro-Iraq War. :mad:

[Deep13]

10. Abortion is the only way RWs don't kill people.

At least that what cartoon hero Stan Smith says.

[buddhamama]

13. the fundy freepers fight the war everyday

we don't kill babies while their still in the womb...nah, we wait and do it after they are born.
we'll starve them and their parents of shelter, food, health care and self-respect- there'll be no money for education but they'll be plenty for defense.
we love the babies that are born to one of "us"

but ye better not be gay, a liberal, dark skinned, a non (literal)-Christian, a thinker or a "deviant".

they fight the war everyday in this country, and around the world
slowly killing us all.

:rant:

[Connonym]

18. Guilty of hypocrisy

I think capital punishment is always wrong but I simultaneously believe that a woman has the right to an abortion at will. Among my justifications, until that fetus can survive outside the womb, it is a part of a woman's body and not a person.

[wildhorses]

20. this would have been an SUV?

specifically a HUMMER...that is what i am seeing in my head

[Bossy Monkey]

27. Famous quote from Flavius Vegetius Renatus

Vegetius to his friends. That is how it is translated, though I hear it the same way you do. Even if they want "him," it seems like that would then require "whom," which sounds really really weird. Regardless, the bumper sticker makers got the quote correct no matter how incorrect it may sound. Adding the bold-face, red ink and exclamation point, however, makes them (or is that "they"?:)) and their customers sound totally insane, however.

[hfojvt]

33. dang I thought it was Emerson

who said something like 'don't neglect the arming of man' or something like that. I really should buy a Bartlett's. It's all on-line, but I would rather reach for a book.

[Jimbo S]

28. "INVADE IRAQ, THEN FRANCE"

and a <punker piss on> France bumper stickers I saw on an oversized pick-up on my way into a Wendy's last Saturday.

I would have challenged him, but he wasn't in/near the truck. Turns out the guy was coming out as I was going in was the one - redneck dude.

[SPKrazy]

29. I Hate Those Kind of Pieces Of Shit!

Living around freepers is enough to make one homicidal sometimes

Killing people in a war that isn't even a war with a reason or justification is fine with these idiots.

But abortion is murder, rather have a child in a terrible situation suffering than to kill a fetus before a child is even in existence.

oh, i could go on and on NWC

:grr:

[tinfoil tiaras]

30. If he really supported our troops, he would donate his hummer to them

in Iraq. And maybe, while he's at it, he can get his sorry ass over to the nearest Army recruiter.

I strongly dislike sorry motherfuckers like him.

[SPKrazy]

34. You Go Tinfoil Tiaras!

that is no shit

he'd rather drive his 5 soldiers to the gallon Hummer

I hate motherfuckers like him too!

I'm still rocking to the Decemberists!

:hi:

[tinfoil tiaras]

35. Awesome...they are amazing

And, what's even more amazing is that I've seen like 10+ Dumbya stickers in my neck of the woods :wtf: :puke:


WHY IN THE HELL DO PEOPLE STILL LIKE HIM? I'M SERIES!!!11

[SPKrazy]

37. I Don't Know

my mother in law and her brother drive me crazy because they still think he hung the moon, or else they can't admit he's fucked up.

I can't even stand to be around them unless we stay wayyyyy away from politics.


WTF is right!

[Left Is Write]

31. Yes, it should be "he."

And let he who thinks war is the way to peace shut the fuck up.

[SPKrazy]

39. Amen!

Just can't stand people like that

they should shut the fuck up and bumper stickers like that should be burned

:grr:

[baldguy]

38. Doesn't sound like something Jesus said.

Clausewitz maybe ... or Julius Caesar ... but not Jesus.

[Haole Girl]

40. It's automobiles/SUV's with that shit all over them that will...

...eventually lead to my demise. Because I absolutely will not sit behind one in traffic...and, one of these days I'm afraid I'm going to kill myself trying to pass one of those m.f'ing idiots. :grr: