Japanese, Chinese Angry Over 'Geisha' Casting

[LynneSin]

http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-11-28/#film2
Although it features an almost entirely Asian cast, Rob Marshall's Memoirs of a Geisha has evoked anger and calls for a boycott among some of those who have seen advance screenings of the film in Japan and China, Reuters reported today (Monday). According to the wire service, some Japanese are outraged that the leading roles in the film are played by Chinese actresses Ziyi Zhang and Gong Li and Chinese-Malaysian actress Michelle Yeoh. On the other hand, some Chinese are upset that Chinese film stars would favorably portray Japanese, who are still remembered for their brutal occupation of China in World War II. Reuters quoted one blogger as saying of Zhang, who plays the title role: "She's sold her soul and betrayed her country. Hacking her to death would not be good enough."

You know, although the cast is amazing, I thought it was odd that he wouldn't try and find some of the top Japanese women to portray the lead characters especially knowing the history between the two cultures (Ironically all the male lead characters are actually played by Japanese Actors). I've watched the Japanese version of Iron chef - they have a ton of Japanese actress on the show who I'm sure could have handled the part. It seems that Marshall went with the top Asian actors instead of getting the best from Japan.

However, I'm still dying to see the film. This just happened to be my one pet peeve about the movie - why all the Chinese actresses cast for the lead roles!

[Shell Beau]

1. It seems that some believe that any Asian

person should be able to pull off Japanese,Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. When in fact, there are some major differences between all of them.

[LynneSin]

6. I like some of the stuff I've read about the casting on "Lost"

I think it was the man who plays "Jin" that said it was the first time he was actually cast in a role that was actually his own ethnicity (He's a Korean-American playing a Korean on the show. The woman cast as his wife is a Korean playing also playing Korean. BTW, she was born in Korea, he was born in American but of Korean heritage).

I'm really torn about this because the three women who were casted are probably the most notable ones in America. Hell, Michelle Yeoh was a Bond Girl. But the actor should have considered looking for Japanese women to play the main 3 roles

[Shell Beau]

8. I looked up the Lost thing before b/c I thought

that Jin and Jun were of different Asian descents (in reality) but I was surprised to find they were both actually Korean. I am not very good at distinguishing, I try to tell from their names, but I still have a lot to learn.

[Chovexani]

10. Well, FWIW

There has been a bit of controversy because Daniel Dae Kim (Jin) is Korean-American, and had to learn the language for the show. Apparently some Koreans are upset because his accent is a little...atrocious.

But eh, I'm happy they just got someone of the actual ethnicity to play the character. That complaint seems like senseless nitpicking to me. Then again, I don't speak a word of Korean and I can't tell the difference in accents.

[LynneSin]

12. Ironically he only speaks Korean in the TV show but....

....she actually is the real Korean. I makes sense that he controlled her but now loses some control because she can talk to the others on the Island but he can't. But in reality it would have been better to have her Korean-only since it is her native language.

BTW, I checked IMDB - he was actually born in Korea but his family moved to America at a very young age. He's kinda like the Mel Gibson of Korean Actors (Mel claims Australia as his heritage and yet he was actually born in New York State)

[chenGOD]

42. Umm mnay Koreans speak English...

and especially with her father being a rich industrialist, it would have been more surprising her not speaking english.

[Patiod]

71. I thought he was kind of hot as the evil lawyer in "Angel"

Wolfram & Harte

[NewJeffCT]

14. some of the Mandarin accents in Crouching Tiger are terrible, too

At least according to my Chinese wife & some of her Chinese friends. One even refuses to listen to the Mandarin version of the movie, preferring the dubbed English.

[chenGOD]

57. I wonder who...

Probably Chow Yun Fat and Michelle Yeoh...since he was born in Hong Kong and she was born in Malaysia.

But Zhang Ziyi was born in Beijing, where they speak Mandarin, and some (most?) of the other main actors were born in Mandarin speaking regions...

[NewJeffCT]

62. I'm pretty sure it was Yeoh

Who had to learn Mandarin for the part. And, I'm sure most Chinese women could listen to Chow Yun Fat mumble on screen and they'd be okay with it - he's the Chinese equivalent of Brad Pitt & a young Robert Redford combined.

[chenGOD]

68. Good way of putting that...lol

Chow Yun Fat is a hell of an actor. And good looking to boot.

[Xithras]

21. I think it has more to do with the western perception of beauty.

The classical western perception of beauty leans towards more rounded races with softer edges. The Japanese tend to see longer, more angular faces as preferable. Because of this, when Hollywood is looking for a "beautiful" asian actress, they tend to pass the Japanese actresses up completely. The Chinese actresses get selected because their rounded faces are percieved as "prettier".

The perception of beauty is culturally driven, not racially driven, so it's not really an ingnorance of racial differences that drives these kinds of actress selections. It's all about who the target audience will respond to with the most favor.

While the Japanese and Chinese may not like the film, keep in mind that it's an American film that was intended for American audiences. If it had been intended for Chinese or Japanese audiences, I'm sure the casting would have been quite different.

[Shell Beau]

29. You make a very good point!

[StellaBlue]

44. funny you think that

I read the book, and was VERY excited to see the first trailer (and am still VERY excited), but I was shocked to see that Zhang was to play Sayuri, as I pictured Sayuri with a much rounder and more mature face... I thought Zhang looked more 'Japanese' than any of the other actors!

This to me is all nonsense. I figured it came down to finding actors who were both right for the parts AND spoke English well enough to appear in this AMERICAN film. :shrug:

I mean, I wouldn't be offended if, say, a person of Italian or Swedish descent played me in a movie (I am predominantly Anglo), so long as they had brown hair and eyes and were short (well, maybe not a Swede! haha).

[Chovexani]

2. Those Japanese actresses on Iron Chef

Are largely the Japanese equivalent of Lindsay Lohan, etc. Not exactly A-list thespians, which is why they're so hungry all the time. :P

The Geisha casting has annoyed me though, even though I worship the ground Ziyi Zhang and Michelle Yeoh walk on. There are plenty of excellent Japanese/Japanese-American actresses starving for work. This just smacks as more of the racist "they all look alike anyway" mentality.

Then again Crazy Tom Cruise was the Last Samurai so...:argh:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

4. Actually, I think Ken Watanbe was.

Crazy Tom was just there for the ride. :-)

[Chovexani]

7. LOL

Ken Watanabe saved that movie for me.

I still say he wuz robbed!

[LynneSin]

13. I think Ken Watanbe was also on Iron Chef

I swear he was on there one time!

[Chovexani]

25. There's been some weird tasters on Iron Chef

Like this one Italian sports guy or something (I think he's a baseball player? not sure), that always wears loads of bling.

Then there's the fortune teller lady, and that guy from the Diet who is there every single show. Maybe Chairman Kaga is bribing him for something? :rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

3. Because two of them were in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, so

they have name recognition?

Besides, don't all Asians look alike? :sarcasm:

No, I think actresses such as Yuki Kudo, Jun Fubuki, Azusa Mano, and Etsuko Ichihara would be terrific in the various age ranges of women's roles that are available in the film.





Azusa Mano



Jun Fubuki



Yuki Kudo



Etsuko Ichihara

[Chovexani]

9. That's it, you're in charge of casting now

Perfect choices there.

Of course, totally unknown in America, which is why they'd never get it. Who cares if it's a movie about time honored traditions of the Japanese culture, we need names that Americans know so we can have butts in the seats! :eyes:

[LynneSin]

15. Yes, but the book is the selling point in this movie not the actors

The book is a major bestseller (it's in my top 3 of favorite all time books non-fiction). The fact that they had Ken Watanbe in the movie should have been good enough for "Star Power".

But on the flip side, I've always adored Gong Li as an actress and I read a story about the movie about how she was perfect in the 'villianess' role of Hatsumoto. (Time mentioned "Oscar-Worthy in the article).

[Chovexani]

26. I know

But this is Hollywood we're talking about. For an industry that is supposedly creative they have a very hard time thinking outside the box, in terms of marketing.

There was actually a really good special about that on the Discovery Times channel a while back, they show it every so often. It was about how movies are sold to the public, and touched on the obsession with "star vehicles" and such. You'd think with all the scads of flops there've been with big name stars (Ishtar, anyone?), they wouldn't rely so much on "names" to sell a movie.

[StellaBlue]

46. YESSS!!! Gong Li!

Gong Li will be GREAT as Hatsumomo!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LostinVA]

38. But Watanabe is well known over here

And the book is THE selling point!

[NewJeffCT]

18. I agree that it is for name recognition only

I had asked the question on here a few months back if anybody was upset in either country about Chinese actresses playing Japanese roles, as I KNOW there would have been an uproar if prominent Japanese actresses played major roles in a Chinese movie, like Crouching Tiger.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. That is pretty retarded.

Seriously, it couldn't have been that hard to find a Japanese woman, and the effort should've been made especially considering this movie is entirely about Japanese culture.

I'll probably see it too, but if this idiotic an error is made in casting alone, I'm wondering what other idiotic errors are to follow.

[XemaSab]

11. To play Devil's Advocate:

How many films have had English actors playing Irishmen? Or English women playing French women? Or Americans playing Germans? Or English playing Germans? Or... GASP... Yankees playing Southerners?

Dude, WWII was a LONG time ago... the Western world has gotten over it... it's time to move on.

[LynneSin]

16. I'm just reporting the news and....

...I still have every intention of seeing the movie. I've read where Gong Li was pretty amazing in her role as Hatsumomo.

[NewJeffCT]

17. Have many really gotten over it?

You don't think there would be an uproar in the Jewish community if a top Jewish actor decided to play a sympathetic Hitler in a film by Steven Spielberg?

Look at the uproar when one of the royal brats in England wore a Nazi brownshirt to a Halloween party last year?

What happened in China at the hands of Japan in the 1930s and early 40s is just as brutal & terrible as what went on in Nazi Germany.

[XemaSab]

20. Good points

I guess it makes more sense to be upset about it considering that the film takes place in Japan during World War II, but this whole insistence that Japanese and Chinese people look totally different seems stupid to me. It seems as racist to me as saying all Asians look alike.

It's like Europe; sometimes you can look at someone and know what country they're from, and sometimes not.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. After I lived in Japan, attending school with lots of Taiwanese

and Hong Kong students, I really learned how different the Chinese and Japanese cultures are and how certain facial types are found only in one country or the other.

[realisticphish]

22. exactly what i was thinking

how many UK/American switches have there been?

one thing though... asking the chinese to forget about the japanese occupation is like asking the jews to forget the holocaust (yeah, yeah, i'm exaggerating some, so sue me). some pretty henious shit happened to occupied china

[Chovexani]

23. I've heard that argument before and I don't think it washes

For a couple of reasons. First of all, Asians are under-represented in Hollywood as it is, and just like blacks and Latinos there seems to be two or three Asian actors that are like the go-to people for every role whether they're right for it or not, just because Hollywood is incapable of thinking outside the box. Secondly as a person of color it really disturbs me that here is a movie that is ostensibly about a tradition that is deeply rooted in the Japanese culture and all the lead females are of a different ethnicity. Not even of mixed Japanese descent, just outright Chinese (and in the case of Michelle Yeoh, Chinese-Malayasian). And it's just the females, that is the fucked up part...the major male parts are all Japanese actors. Lydia Leftcoast just named some stellar Japanese actresses upthread that could fit the part, and I could name a few more just off the top of my head. Don't get me wrong, I love Ziyi Zhang even if she's a little overexposed, and Michelle Yeoh is a goddess to me, but...it just strikes me as odd. I would be just as upset if someone did a remake of the Color Purple and cast Rosie Perez as Ceelie.

I don't think it's racism so much as the Hollywood mentality that a movie needs to have big names Middle America will recognize in order to make money. Maybe I wouldn't feel so uneasy about it if it were a Japanese production, but with white folks as the casting directors, etc it just smacks as more "they all look alike anyway-ism".

FWIW, one of the reasons I hated Cold Mountain was because of the Hollywood mentality that had Jude Law and Nicole Kidman star because they're big names, despite the fact they were laughably wrong for those roles, and the fact that it wasn't even filmed in the South.

[XemaSab]

28. Fair enough...

Hey, I said I was playing devil's advocate. :evilgrin:

[StellaBlue]

47. I agree with your post

Especially re: Cold Mountain. EXCELLENT BOOK. So-so movie (only for Cold Mountain / Civil War era fanatics, like myself). Both terribly miscast, though Law was better than Kidman, I think. I like both of them, but not in that.

[LostinVA]

40. Yeah, those Holocaust survivors just need to get over it

WW II was a long time ago... say that to someone from Nanking, or Shanghai, or Hopei..... and at least the Germans have tried their best to atone for what their government did, unlike the Japanese government.

[democracyindanger]

51. Besides, Asians all look alike anyway, right?

Chinese, Japanese--what's the diff to you, huh?

:eyes:

[realisticphish]

19. well, for one

ziyi zhang already has big name recognition in the us, which is major points for her.

plus, shes amazingly beautiful :loveya:

as for the others... meh. doesn't seem like something to get pissed about, but, what do i know

[SoCalDem]

24. Hollywood still thinks that "all Asians are alike"

The Chinese woman is a good actress, but she doesn't LOOK Japanese.. They are DIFFERENT..

Hollywood used to get away with this stuff, and I'm glad that groups are calling them on it now.. Too bad it was not in time to make a change and cast a japanese actress.

If they insist on doing historical pieces and pretend to strive for accuracy, they could surely do a better job in casting

[Chovexani]

Exactly

I wouldn't be as upset about this if it wasn't a movie that was about an historical aspect of a particular culture. I mean, I wasn't upset about the ethnicities of the actors in, say, The Scorpion King because it didn't even pretend to be a documentary about ancient Egypt or anything, it was just a dumb popcorn movie.

I definitely agree that if they're going to pretend to be accurate they need to do a better job casting. I guess I'm cynical because this is the same industry that only allows for one "it" person of each gender for an ethnic group, and it wasn't really that long ago that Asian roles were played by white people with taped up eyes.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

34. Case in point:Flower Drum Song, a musical taking place in Chinatown

The female leads were Miyoshi Umeki (Japanese), Nancy Kwan (English-Chinese), Reiko Sato (Japanese), and Juanita Hall (African-American).

The male leads included James Shigeta and Jack Soo (both Japanese-American) and Patrick Adiarte (Filipino-American).

[Bridget Burke]

27. Well, Myrna Loy played the lead in "The Good Earth"

Things have improved a bit. Let's hope they keep improving.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Actually, it was Luise Rainer, who was Austrian

but I learned a few years ago that there was a 1930s movie in which Katherine Hepburn played a Chinese woman.

I think it was called Dragon Seed, and I'm hoping it will turn up somewhere just for the sheer weirdness of the idea.

[SoCalDem]

36. Dragon Seed -1944 here's the cast listing

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036777/

[lastliberalintexas]

50. Jennifer Jones did as well

At least her character was only half Asian, so she pulled it off better than Hepburn. Hepburn tried to play an Asian woman but apparently refused to even try to speak like anything other than a New Englander. Jones at least had flatter diction, even if she lacked the necessary ethnicity for the film. I guess it would have been too much to ask American audiences of the 1950s to accept a true Asian love interest for Holden.

[Bridget Burke]

58. Thanks for the correction!

Myrna Loy did play many "exotic" roles before Hollywood figured out what to do with her. And she was lifelong Democrat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrna_Loy

[Sequoia]

30. Remember all those American films with white guys as Indians?

Can you say Chuck "Chuckles" Conners as Geronimo with blue eyes for crying out loud!?

[NewJeffCT]

49. It wasn't that long ago...

That I saw a movie on "Atilla the Hun" that had Atilla as a blue-eyed male model type. At least he had dark hair in the movie.

[Sequoia]

69. Then there was that commercial about the Plains Tribe Indian

in the 1970s who had a tear because of pollution. He did a lot for them and called attention to their plight and they didn't mind even though the guy was actually Italian because the message was true. Don't F with the Earth and the Native Americans have forever been saying that. i.e., mining for coal and gold, oil, etc.

[Blue_Tires]

33. hey...after Orson Wells played "Othello"

and Al Pacino played Tony Montana, all bets are off the table....lol

[UncleSepp]

35. Best actor for the part

The casting director chose the best person for the role, regardless of national origin. Chinese cinema has produced some amazing dramatic actresses in the last 15 years, with very deep and complex roles for women. Japanese cinema has not provided the same opportunities to the same degree for actresses to prove themselves. Yes, there are Japanese actresses who look the part, but this part requires a lot more than just a pretty face.

[LostinVA]

37. I'm appalled by it for authenticity reasons

I grew up with lots of Japanese Americans, have several Japanese and Chinese friends, and Chines and Japanese women do NOT look alike. One of my (liberal) American friends was like, "Who can tell? So what!" God.

There are several great Japanese-America actresses who would kill for that part, if they didn't want to chance a Japanese actresses being able to speak English.

[LynneSin]

43. But two of the 3 main actresses in the movie did not speak English

and had to be tough English with a Japanese accent (neither Ziyi Zhang nor Gong Li speak English). So it really wouldn't have mattered if they had to teach two Chinese actresses to speak English with a Japanese accent or they hired 2 Japanese actresses and had to teach them English. (BTW, the book was original written by an American for an American audience so there was no question that the movie would be filmed in English).

[lakemonster11]

67. I think it's weird when people say they can't tell the difference.

Maybe it's because I grew up in Seattle, which has a huge and diverse Asian population (we have an "International District," not a "Chinatown"), but I can (usually) tell who is from Japan, China, Korea, etc.

Plus, there's such a difference in the way that Japanese and Chinese sound, even to someone who speaks neither language, that I'm always surprised when someone asks, "Are they speaking Japanese or Chinese?"

And some people can't even tell by even the most obvious names! I mean, "Xiao Qin" vs. "Kazuhiro Sasaki"! Not really a mind-bender!

I do think it's ignorance rather than racism, though (at least for most people)---they just haven't known enough Asian people of any ethnicity to be able to tell the difference.

[LynneSin]

70. I can sometimes tells but it depends

If one Asian person stood before me and I didn't know their full given name, I hate to say it - I probably wouldn't know.

But if there were several people from various Asian countries I can usually tell the difference or at least that they were from different cultures. I can also tell from the names because they definately are different from country to country.

[Fleshdancer]

39. the preview of the big dance scene is what has me worried....

I LOVE Memoirs of a Geisha and after living in Japan for a few years, I'm fascinated by the traditions. The dance scene shown in the previews doesn't look authentic at all and too "hollywood". I'll still see the movie but this part of it already disappoints me a little.

As far as the actors go, there are so many wonderful and competent Japanese actors available so I'm a bit confused as to why the main characters are Chinese. Chinese people don't look like Japanese people so that difference will probably bug me a little when watching the movie. Of course I don't think it warrants this much anger...after all, it's just a movie and for the actors it's an incredible job offer so why not take the opportunity?

[LostinVA]

41. I know it'll bug me

A look at my yearbook shows names like Yamamoto, Ohara, Sakura, etc. I KNOW what Japanese people look like -- they do not look like Chinese or Koreans. Oi. It will drive me as batty as Mel's fake great plaid in "Braveheart."

[LynneSin]

I've read some previews already that mentioned the dance scene

Spielberg choose Rob Marshall as the director since he has worked with dance sequences before (He directed Chicago) but one preview said the dance sequence in MOAG seemed like a Japanese version of Chicago.

I'm so worried because my other favorite book of all time was ruined by a disappointing adaptation (and ironically it was the book's author that wrote the screenplay and got an Oscar for it - John Irving's "Cider House Rules") so I'm really expecting to go into the book and be disappointed.

Although many of the minor characters from the book are in there including Dr. Crab and the Baron, I've also read previews where a different explaination of where she was during WWII and also one of the characters in the 3rd part of the book was changed to an American.

BTW, I see that the guy who played "Eddie Sakamoto" from "Rising Sun" is doing the Baron. The Baron was always kinda a smooth talking operator and it seems like a good fit. Oh, Dr. Crab is played by the guy who was the Keymaker from the Matrix. And Nobu had the lead in the original Japanese version of "Shall We Dance" (It was remade with Richard Gere doing the American version of it)

[StellaBlue]

48. re: dance sequence - EXACTLY what I was thinking!

THAT'S not a geisha dance!!!!

?!?!?!

It looked like modern dance to me!

[StellaBlue]

45. Vivien Leigh IS Scarlett O'Hara.

No further comment.

[StellaBlue]

52. stills for your persual / argument

FROM THE MOVIE


Sayuri / Chairman


Chiyo / Hatsumomo



'dance' scene from trailer



THE ACTORS - as listed on imdb.com


Ziyi Zhang (Sayuri)



Ken Watanabe (The Chairman)



Michelle Yeoh (Mameha)



Kôji Yakusho (Nobu)



Kaori Momoi (Mother)



Youki Kudoh (Pumpkin)



Li Gong (Hatsumomo)



Kenneth Tsang (The General)



Tsai Chin (Auntie)



Samantha Futerman (Satsu)



Togo Igawa (Mr Tanaka)



Randall Duk Kim (Dr Crab)



Mako (Mr Sakamoto)



Suzuka Ohgo (Chiyo)



Elizabeth Sung (Mrs Sakamoto)



Cary-Hiroyuki Tagawa (The Baron)



Zoe Weizenbaum (Young Pumpkin)



Eugenia Yuan (Korin)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Well, at least they found a place for

Yuki Kudoh, Kaori Momoi, and :loveya: Koji Yakusho.

[nytemare]

53. I have been impressed with most of the cast members in the past.

I enjoy foreign film, so I am happy to see a cast like this getting roles in a film such as this.

One thing I was suprised at was that it is filmed in English, and not Japanese with subtitles, but I am sure I will be pleased with the end result.

[bridgit]

54. sadly, that's 'box office'; Yeoh & Li are the best at what they do...

as well as: Zhang, the old crouching tiger/raise the red lantern gang, all of which & who's work i adore immensely. i'm still trying to deal with Redford playing Bob Woodward :shrug: where was the justice in that

i'll be at Memoirs of a Geisha :thumbsup:

[chenGOD]

55. And also..Zhang Ziyi barely speaks English...*NM*

[LynneSin]

56. Gong Li doesn't speak English either

both had to be not only taught but how to speak it with a Japanese accent.

But I'm not the one complaining - I'll be there to see the movie. It would have been nice to cast Japanese actresses in the roles. But I think more importantly that MOAG will help make the careers of several very talented but under rated Asian actors here in America. We keep talking about how Zhang is famous but outside of Crouching Tiger, most of her movies were more arthouse distributed which means she isn't that recognized. I still say Yeoh has the highest profile since she was a bond girl.

But if the movie is as good as early reviews have shown, I'm thinking there will be a few acting nominations which will really push some of these actors to the forefront regardless of their nationality!

[chenGOD]

59. Well personally I think it's ridiculous...

and if they're going to make the movie why not base it on the book written by the geisha "Memoirs of a Geisha" was based on...

also.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20010501k3.htm

[NewJeffCT]

63. Zhang Ziyi has been in a few other "big" movies

Hero
House of Flying Daggers
Rush Hour 2

Granted, she was a supporting actress in Hero & Rush Hour 2.

[LynneSin]

65. Hero & House were not that "big" of movies

BOth catered more towards the arthouse crowds than mainstream movie-going folks. You throw a movie with subtitles in it, you lose about half the population (you know - those who scream that everyone has to speak English or else) lose interest in seeing it.

Hero actually did quite well because it started Jet Li. But neither movie got the 3000+ theater release treatments but instead did more "word of mouth" business that helps build a movie audience.

[chenGOD]

60. Plus...Gong Li and Michelle Yeoh are WAY TOO OLD for the roles...

I mean..yes I'll get accused of ageism...except it's not, because these are supposed to be girls who are 16-20

Michelle Yeoh is 43 and Gong Li is 40.

Plus. THEY'RE CHINESE for pete's sake.

[GOPisEvil]

64. Ya know, Jennifer Lopez got crap for playing Selena, too.

Selena was Mexican-American and Jennifer Lopez is of Puerto-Rican descent. Mexican-Americans were pissed. :shrug:

[LynneSin]

66. She was actually quite good in the role

Much different than what I think of her skills today

[GRLMGC]

72. Yeah

She's deteriorated in the talent department for some reason