Is it racism?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

Is it racism for someone to say "white people can't play reggae music"?
It seems like I hear this all the time from folks who would never dream of saying "black people can't play classical music".
But I see no real difference between these two statements...

(edit: punctuation)

[MrScorpio]

1. It isn't racism, it's just ignorance

These are people that have obviously never heard of the REVOLUTIONARY DUB WARRIORS.

An all white reggae band that used to play in Europe before they broke up.

[noiretextatique]

9. i think both statements qualify as ignorant

and since racism is essentially ignorance...

[Karenina]

24. YUP! Prime time examples

of 2 dumbass utterances in one post! :eyes:

As to the question posed, I do consider the first "bigoted or prejudiced and the second "racist." Please allow me to explain my reasoning. The idiot bigotry expressed in "white people cannot play XXXX" does NOT prevent a white XXXX band from playing gigs, earning a living doing so, being accepted as talented and innovative when discerning fans'ears hear NOR does it prevent any well-known white artist from "co-opting" a "traditionally black" genre (sometimes even badly) and raking in more money than all the pioneers of the genre combined. Look at "The Police" for an example. (Let me make it clear I LOVE THE POLICE!!!) Such a statement reflects resentment, but I would not define it a "racist" using a strict definition.

HOWEVER, "Black (or Asian) people cannot play classical music" reinforces a stereotype and perception that will NOT be undone by the most stirring, consistently executed renditions of the most difficult repertoire. (That is, unless the artist has some big WHITE guns backing him/her up). The "perception" contributes to limited opportunity, assumptions of the players' "inferiority" THAT CAN TRANSCEND WHAT HAS ACTUALLY BEEN PRODUCED! It also creates a hostile, crazy-making environment. THAT is RACISM.

I recount experiences and a sensitive, menschlich listener's response is usually, "NO, that COULD NOT HAPPEN!" little realizing that the (although sympathetic) response of DENIAL, implying I must have somehow "misunderstood" what occurred makes me EVEN MORE NUTS!

[EOTE]

28. Or the Specials...

Or Long Beach Dub All Stars (Formerly Sublime prior to Brad Nowell's death). And there are plenty of white and mixed race ska (the precursor to reggae, not vice versa) bands such as Reel Big Fish and Mighty Mighty Bosstones. Hell, even one of the original ska bands who helped start it all, the Skatellites had white members.

[Wcross]

2. Of course it is.

When you make a generalization based on race alone, what else could you call it?

[FlashHarry]

4. What if you say 'white people can't be black?'

Now I'm starting to sound like Loretta/Stan from the Judean People's Front!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. then you are just being silly

n/t

[FlashHarry]

7. You're right.

I'm just being contrary. By definition, if you make a statement based on race, it is a racist statement.

[Karenina]

43. But WHAT is "race" but an artificial construct?

Hell, I've got a number of "black white people" or is it "white black people" :shrug: in my family. "What does it mean, Mr. Natural?" "Don't mean shit."

I ask you to consider my understanding of racism posted above. In my experience, white people tend to attempt to frame the definition in a way that allows THEM to feel comfortable.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

48. I partially agree with your last statement...

"In my experience, white people tend to attempt to frame the definition in a way that allows THEM to feel comfortable."

If you scratch the word "white", you're scratching the surface of truth.

Racism doesn't confine itself to one race. We need to stop talking about it as a racial problem and begin to understand it as a human problem...one element of the larger form of ignorance known as "prejudice".

When we begin to recognize and eradicate the different forms of prejudice within ourselves as individuals, and encourage the same self-analysis in our peers; we'll find that we've stepped off the treadmill and onto the path.

[Karenina]

51. GoG

I understand your point and in a "perfect world it would be nolo contendre. Yes it is a HUMAN problem which is why I referenced what a white person might confront in Japan. The incendiary point I address is that of white people, particularly in the US, defining what is "racist."
My assertion is that white people in America have NO UNDERSTANDING of what it really is, only anecdotes or empirical evidence. They tend to become OUTRAGED at the slightest odor of what they perceive to be the poison they've dished out for centuries and even have access to recourse, merely by being part of the dominant culture.

I completely agree that the solution begins with the individual. It's a difficult process. Ever read any Tim Wise pieces? HE REALLY GETS IT!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

162. I've read some Tim Wise...

and agree with much of what he has to say. The fact that existing racial epithets can't possibly be as demeaning to whites as they are to blacks doesn't make their use acceptable, in my book.

Why, I wonder, is it surprising to you that people would be outraged by acts of prejudice aimed at them by people who hope to eradicate such prejudice from their world? Is it surprising that Americans were outraged by 9/11 considering our unwanted presence in the Middle East?

Clearly most white people haven't been oppressed by racism to the degree that minority races have; and a certain amount of tangible evidence of resentment is to be expected from the ignorant masses of those who've suffered, because human nature is often flawed in its actions. This does not make acts/words of revenge right. It does present a good case for group therapy, though.

...or maybe a reading of Thich Nhat Hanh's "Anger".

[FlashHarry]

147. I totally agree.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that race is an artificial construct. I recently saw a documentary on PBS on this very subject. Their thesis was, there is no genetic evidence to support the concept of race. As a 'white' person whose earliest memories are of growing up in West Africa, I can tell you that almost all my earliest childhood friends were 'black.' Race was never an issue; we were just kids. I didn't encounter the concept until I moved to the States. It mystifies me to this day.

[Karenina]

151. It IS so mystifying.

My early childhood years were spent in a tiny village that housed all the psychiatrist's families who worked at the hospital. What we kids all had in common was all our dads (at that time) were shrinks and that WE were all there running around in a pack. Our parents came from the U.S., Trinidad, Panama, Hungary, Poland, Germany, the U.K., Serbia; those are all I remember off the top, but I, of course, thought it was NORMAL. Hey, we all got screamed at in so many languages but I can tell you there was never any misunderstanding. Also my own family is a "melting pot" of "races" and nationalities. I THOUGHT THAT WAS NORMAL! "Race" was an issue only in the subliminal messages about skin tone. It wasn't until I integrated the local elementary school that I really got a face full of it. It remains for me to this day MYSTIFYING!!!

[ForrestGump]

3. Um, yes

There is no difference between these statements, when it comes down to it.

But I guess that (a) some level of 'racism' can be deemed acceptable by the majority, at least at times, and (b) racism toward white people is often not seen as such, sometimes even when it's somewhat beyond the most generous nastiness threshold.

"White Men Can't Jump" as a movie title....fine, but would a movie titled "Black Men Can't.....Whatever" (off-hand I can't right now think of a suitable stereotype) fly, or one titled "Chinese Men Can't Drive"(this latter actually a quote from a Chinese friend of mine, in reference to China, the country)?

[Karenina]

40. FG, let me just throw this one out...

IMHO the only place in the world where a white person can get a little taste of what racism really is and how it feels and how debilitating and crazy-making it can be is Japan. THERE, your skin color can deny you entry. THERE it will be subtly or grossly communicated to you on MANY levels that you will NEVER be accepted just for the content of your character. Forget how well you speak, forget if you were born there, you are PERMANENTLY Gaijin based solely on your physical appearance.

WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT EXPERIENCE RACISM. They are NOT required to "get it" and those who DO have my admiration. It is not something you can extrapolate, make analogies to or empathize with. Racism, by its very nature, is never-ending, deadly poison. The garbage that any particular individual white person is subjected to is always escapable and even punishable. For anyone who is NOT part of the "dominant culture" the ONLY escape is death.

[noiretextatique]

44. powerful statement, karenina

i'm sure many here will take issue with it, but you've hit the nail on the head, as far as i'm concerned.

[noiretextatique]

45. powerful statement, karenina

i'm sure many here will take issue with it, but you've hit the nail on the head, as far as i'm concerned.

[catpower2000]

47. I agree, Karenina...

Let me tell you my experience. I went to a mostly-black HS and an almost all-black college. I am white. I experienced discrimination there based on my skin color, which could be described as "racism". But I don't call it that. You know why? Because I can go back out into THE REST OF THE WORLD and be in the majority, and enjoy certain priveleges that are afforded to me because of my white skin--EVEN WHEN I DON'T KNOW I AM RECEIVING THOSE PRIVELEGES, and EVEN WHEN I HAVE NOT ASKED FOR THEM. Our culture is wired to give me more, respect me more, and like me more because I am white. It's insane and wrong and evil, but that's the way it is. I fight for the rights of minorities as much as I can, but I know I can't ever know what it is to walk in their shoes.

To compare something like a movie title, which gently kids, "White Men Can't Jump" to the subtle, pervasive, and eternal prejudice which black people face every day, all day, and have for hundreds of years, is ludicrous.

Cat

[Karenina]

54. Wow! Catpower2000!

White privilege is something that is so subtle, those who have not had your experience cannot even wrap their brains around it. It's the ability to drive without fearing being pulled over by the cops if you "look" like you don't "belong" there.

I used to wear extensions. At least once a week a complete stranger would grab my hair and demand to know if it was "my real hair." (It still happens, although less often, with my long dreadlocks). I once approached a blonde woman on the tram who also had them. I asked her if she'd ever had a similar experience. She looked at me disdainfully and in a tone that I am at a loss to describe said, "Of course not!"

"Our culture is wired to give me more, respect me more, and like me more because I am white."

[ForrestGump]

69. Sounds to me like

you're a white person who experienced racism. I don't see that's lessened by being able to teleport out of it back to a world that's still largely run by and for white people.

I'd never pretend to be a person who must continually bang my head against the brick wall of racism in an effort to realize my own potential (other brick walls, amybe, but not that profoundly unjust one) but I do know the feeling that goes with being discriminated against because of race (and/or national origin) and am aware enough to realize that, for millions of people, that hurt is an ongoing thing. As for the movie titles I cited, they're just absurdity but I think that they still point to basic hypocrisy of a kind.

[noiretextatique]

70. here's the difference i see

as karenina mentioned, i can't ever escape it. then trivial shit like movie titles don't explain why james byrd was dragged to his death, for example...talk about hypcristy.

IT IS NOT EQUAL...this is the thing that kills me about these converstations here....with the history is this country, how could it be? really...how could it be equal? how does someone treating you badly because you are white...how does that relate to centuries of favoritism aka white supremacy and an entire system that grew up immersed in it? yeah there are bigots or every color...but what does that have to do with the privileges and disadvantages of skin color? to claim "it's all the same" is a part of the privilege, because it implies equal power. that simply isn't the case.

the truth of the matter is, in a country less than 50 years removed from jim crow as the law of the land, white people still benefit in many ways from that legacy. an older friend of mine reminds me that our (baby boomers) generation, since african arrived on these shores, was the first to have full access to american society...the FIRST in american history. that means access to education, primarily, and of course jobs. among other things, and i mean EN MASSE, and not ones predetermined by the tradition of exclusion.

as to movie titles...who bankrolled "white men can't jump," for example?

[ForrestGump]

72. Okay

I didn't equate stupid movie titles to do with what happened to James Byrd, or to any of the other people in America who've ended up the dead victoim of hate crimes, or to the millions more whose lives have been and continue to be affected by racism. That would be a ridicuous and insulting comparison.

As for centuries of institutionalized racism, they all happened before I came on to the scene. Am I somehow guilty by association with forebears that, to add to the fun, weren't even mine? That hardly seems fair. I may be part of the white-power-based-societal-structure or whatever solely because of my skin color but that same structure hasn't exactly done me any favors and I don't recall ever waking up and deciding to oppress someone because they happened to be born with more melanin than I did.

And let's ditch the ethnocentrism to head beyond the shores of the US, the other nations of the Americas, and the Caribbean, where the heritage of African slavery and subsequent oppression is not a factor. Would you experience racism/xenophobia (good luck trying to pick 'em apart, in at least some instances) in some of these places? Probably. Would I? Probably. I don't see that racism, no matter which way it flows along the skin-color continuum, is entirely a function of historical imbalance.

As for movie titles, I don't know who bankrolled "White Men Can't Jump," I haven't seen the thing, and I wish I'd never brought it up. I don't actually find the title offensive at all, though. I do find it mildly irritating on my hypocrisy-meter that counterparts that make similar claims of other races would be taboo but, because I'm as acculturated toward this any anyone else, I'd simultaneously be very disturbed if such a movie was released.

The fact that I'm conditioned to not find "White Men Can't Jump" offensive whereas "Black Men Can't (Whatever)" would greatly offend me doesn't make that illogical distinction any less hypocritical. What about "French Men Can't Fight"? Resurrect Peter Sellers for the lead and, even without the current Francophobia Stateside, it'd probably be received well, regardless of how insulting it is to France's war dead.

[noiretextatique]

76. you still benefit

whether you feel guilty or not is up to you. i would suggest that guilt is largely self-serving and meaningless, but other people i know think it's useful. irregardless, you are likely to get a better rate on a mortgage or a car loan than i, all other things being equal. this is the cost of institutionalized racism doesn't depend on your guilt, or lack thereof. i don't even use the word "fair" when talking about race...it just doesn't mean much of anything.
it certainly isn't fair that my generation was the first to have full access to american society. yes, racism cannot be understood in a historical vaccum...it assumes an equality that does not exist. of course, that does not negate any individual's experience of bigotry. it's not either/or, but both/and.

however, the same system that benefits the ruling class sends our poor brothers and sisters of all colors off to fight it's wars...that hardly seems fair to me.
i'm not sure what you mean...slavery existed all over the americas, including the caribbean. as to how i am received in the caribbean, you can bet it has more to do with class than race.

as to movies, i still consider this trivial, so i won't address it further, except to talk about conditioning...and imagery. perhaps the reaction to "white men can't whatever...." has something to do with the fact the white men have always been depicted as being capable and competent.

[ForrestGump]

81. I agree

that the "White Men Can't Jump" thing is probably an ironic reaction to perceived white superiority (that I guess even pervaded athletics until a frighteningly late date). And I'd be surprised if the film's dramtic arc didn't include a white man who could, indeed, jump.

Anyway, I can't say that I feel guilt because I'm white - why should I, because I was never an active participant in the goings-on that led to (and still maintain) institutionalized racism - but I do cringe when someone utters a racist epithet or otherwise engages in racial put-downs. Perhaps some of these incidents are not necessarily catastrophic, in the way that discrimination with respect to jobs or housing (etc) can be, but they help to maintain a climate within with such discrimination might be tacitly approved or even encouraged. Regardless, racist terms and put-downs are not confined to usage by white people but, certainly, in our society nobody can deny that the people on top have long been white people and that racist attitudes from that quarter are potentially far more powerful in affecting lives than are those of certain other groups.

I agree about the unfairness of a bigoted society (that society really being the guys at the top, who were overwhelmingly white) sending off 'cannon-fodder' to fight their wars. I'd always bought the (historically documented) idea that young black men were overwhelmingly sent to Vietnam in the '60s (by a country that had not yet fully integrated in even a superficial way) but I recently saw a set of statistics on a Vietnam-war Web page that broke down troop commitment and casualties by race and education. I was surprised to see that the figures seemed pretty much in line with the racial makeup of the US at that time. I don't think that there were figures there on deaths by race, but it wouldn't surprise me if the view that black men were sent overseas to die still had validity in that they were disproportionately represented among front-line combat troops. For example, if black soldiers made up 12% of the US force in Vietnam but comprise 60% of deaths, then soemthing was a little awry. Anyway, the fact that plenty of young white soldiers went to Vietnam as combat troops still supports the age-old pattern of the powerful (rich white men) sending out the powerless (everyone else, including a lot of poor black and white men) to die for The Cause.

My reference to the Caribbean and all that was recognition that most of those islands (and much of South America) have a history of slavery....I was just trying to say that even outside of this part of the world (Asia, for example) both of us could be victims of racism that does not necessarily have anything to do with historical grievances. Of course, for white people this becomes less likely because our forefathers had a tendency to try to forcibly take over the entire world and just about every nation on Earth has a figurative bone to pick with us.

[retread]

62. Well said!!!

*

[ForrestGump]

68. Got your point

I've lived in places and, for varying lengths of time, countries (not including Japan) where I've been a distinct minority based on the color of my skin. In some of those places I have experienced something that perhaps you'd call prejudice or bigotry - animosity that seemed solely a result of my skin color - that I would call 'racist' simply because it was...well....race-ist.

Sure, I may have been able to escape that by moving elsewhere, to a place where white males still ruled supreme, but I still consider those ill-feelings toward me a form of racism (or, perhaps in foreign ports, more xenophobic than racist....the two are often almost interchangeable). For the record, the worst racism that I've experienced has been in the United States so, yes, in those cases it was a short hop for me back to the world that's still primarily based on a white, male power structure.

Whether my short-term or more extended encounters with minority status and occasional stints at the receiving end of xenophobia or race-based prejudice were 'racism' is a question of semantics. I happen to view race-based prejudice as racism. Just because I may not be subjected to it every day of my life, or constantly have to fight to avoid being subjected to it, does not mean that I can't experience racism as a transient condition. To proclaim that white people do not experience racism seems to me one of those absolutes that's destined to crash and burn when it enters the world of reality.

Further for the record, in most places outside the US where I've been a racial minority I was treated extremely well by most of the people. I did not come in as the Great White Hunter and I could only cringe at the attitudes of some of the other white expats, especially the longer-term ones, who would have been justification enough for local people's mistrust and resentment toward me. The US has occasionally been a different story, perhaps something to do with the mutual hate and resentment that's long infected the nation.

[noiretextatique]

71. mutual hate

that's an interesting way to put it. if someone enslaved you (formally and informally) for a few centuries, do you think you would love him? really...how do you think you would feel? existent anonmosity didn't just materialize from a vacuum...or from a place of equality.

messages like mlk's resonates for two reasons:

1) hating means the hated has power over you...forgiveness releasing you even more than the hated

2) if there is a perceived reason to hate, or sincere greivances, it's incumbent on the individual to process those feelings in ways that aren't harmful to self and to others.

[ForrestGump]

73. Mutual hate

is what I have seen in, for example, Los Angeles, where a 'traditional' American antipathy and imbalance between black and white seems basically eclipsed by an entangled network of hatred that pitches black against Korean, Hispanic Americans against illegal Mexicans, Laotians aginst Cambodians, Anglos against Asians, Vietnamese against....whoever....and so on.

The issue's not (metaphorically) black and white and the US is not just a (literally) black and white nation, and it's becoming less so all the time. I think that the country's strength derives in large part from its diversity, but sometimes along the fringes of the components of that diversity you're going to have strife that results in violence, suspicion, and mutual hate, whether based on ethnicity or nationalism. It's a human problem, I'd say.

[noiretextatique]

74. it is an entrenched problem

and of course it's not just black and white. as to tensions between various groups, it's a part of the larger problem of race and class, and at least the preceptions that some groups receive privileges that other groups don't. and none of the groups you mention have the power and privilege that whites do...nor have these tensions arose from a social or historical vacuuum either. in that sense, all the bickering over crumbs reminds me of how race has been used to divide and conquer by the ruling class. it works as well with blacks, asians, and latinos as it does with poor whites.

[ForrestGump]

75. That sounds reasonable

Well, actually, it all sounds very UNreasonable, but I guess that's kind of the point. Many people, basically, suck.

Perhaps some of those who perpetuate the worst of oppressive white power need to live in Japan for a few years. On second thought, such people would probably find a way to land on their feet and still remain immune to anytime-soon karma. You only need to look as far as Teflon Reagan and now Teflon Bush for that kind of thing.

[noiretextatique]

77. ah...the poster boys for affirmative action for rich, white men

i'll just add dan quayle. if anyone doubts the existence of a system of privilege that benefits certain groups, these folks are living, breathing examples of it.

[alaine]

79. The question was framed in terms of black and white.

Not Japanese and Korean, or Indian and Pakistani. I get so tired of people's lack of imagination and/or pretenses of not understanding the difference in racial tensions and racial discrimination, not to mention the differences in the history of groups such as asian immigrants to the U.S. and African-Americans, whose ancestors were kidnapped from their country and victims of horrible brutality in the U.S for 400 years. Pretending not to "get it" where this is concerned is so, well, right-wing. Michele Malkin is a master at manipulating these kinds of historical differences into an imagined level playing field and then hiding her racism behind her minority status in her assertions that affirmative action for Blacks hurts Asians. As if non-white people are supposed to accept that there is only a small piece of the pie designated for them to split, instead of fighting non-entitled whites like George W. Bush and his ilk who hog everything.

Racism is not speech, it is expressed in speech, or speech is a symptom of racism. If you want to hang yourself up on the cross over an offhand comment that doesn't signify the institutionalized oppression and brutalization a class of people like the 2nd comment would be alluding to, then go ahead. I've worked in factories in rural South Carolina where I felt racial tension coming at me from black people, and I have found it hard to deal with at times, but that is a whole different issue from racial discrimination and oppression. A caller on c-span demonstrated this perfectly this a.m when he said he was a U.A.W member and that the white guys he worked with continually ran blacks off jobs at his auto plant, saying when they were hired "Look at that n----- taking a white man's job", yet the rest of the time they continually bitched about "lazy n------ who don't want to work". Is it really true, this belief that white men seem to have ingrained in their psyches which is, if another race or gender makes gains, then the piece of the pie that white guys hold shrinks proportionally? Is the pie really that small, is it finite? Are they REALLY entitled to the piece they have by accident of birth? If they are forced to share, is that reverse racism? Are they "sharing" in the real sense of allowing use of something they were really entitled to? Or were they lied to to begin with, and is the fact that other factions of humanity are breaking down the lie where the sense of victimization comes from? And if so, shouldn't they be angry at the people that lied to them in the first place, instead of venting their anger on the real victims of the liars?

[ForrestGump]

88. But the question is not meaningfully just black and white

so why is one 'not allowed' to bring in other examples?

Nobody is going to tell me that I have not been the victim of racism here and abroad (substitute 'racial prejudice' if the semantics are such that you deem such treatment not, by definition, 'racist') but I am fully aware that I happen, by accident of birth, to be a human who's preadapted to be treated better in my society than are certain of my conspecifics, solely on the basis of skin color. Hang that on your cross.

I'm an occasional visitor to the world of the racially-discriminated-against; I don't live there full time. Never said I did.

[alaine]

90. Victim is a very strong word.

Please elaborate.

I prefer to put things in context. For instance Americans abroad tend sometimes to be on the receiving end of resentment because of the actions of this country, and our general ignorance about the rest of the world. I wouldn't call that racism. I especially would not call it racism if I were in Japan and treated badly by people whose country was the recipient of two American atomic bombs, just as I wouldn't call the racial tension or resentment or anger that I felt in a few South Carolina factories racism. There's a difference between racism and a reaction to racism, and mostly what white people get thrown back in our faces is a reaction to the racism we or our ancestors have practiced. I'll take that anyday over being tied to a tree and lashed with a whip over and over.

[ForrestGump]

94. 'Victim' is an accurate word

for someone who's, unprovoked, subjected to a show of hatred. I've been lucky in that most such displays have been fleeting and made up for by the decent people thereabouts, but it's still hardly a barrel of laughs to be the subject of a racially/ethnically/nationally-motivated attack.

I agree with you about the archetypal 'ugly American' overseas. I am not one, by the way, but I've seen many of them, and they make me cringe. And that's not just because it's embarrassing to share a passport with them or to have to follow in their wake and perhaps be tainted by it. I wouldn't call that negative reactions to that racism (Karenina set me straight on calling things racism, anyway) and I wouldn't even call it xenophobia - I'd call it perfectly justifiable annoyance. And if I were somehow lumpd in with them as the object of derision or surliness, I'd call than an understandable reaction. But if I were to come back six months later and be greeted with negative waves that seemed tied to my nationality, I'd call that prejudice. Justified by past encounters, perhaps, but still prejudice.

And forgive me if I fail to get excited about someone uttering racial slurs or otherwise displaying prejudice toward me because of the possibility that my ancestors once shackled or abused or even killed their ancestors - that would be a feeble excuse even if my ancestors had done any of that. History does not forgive present behavior.

Same with Japan - I think that the original reference was probably less related to the legacy of the US nuking two Japanese cities than it was an inherent part of traditional Japanese culture that maintains that Japanese are superior to other people. This is an attitude that's been put into action (WWII springs to mind ) and, to quote one example, was handily put into words a few years back by the former Japanese who said that black Americans were lowering US literacy and 'intelligence' levels.

[noiretextatique]

97. so true....it doesn't matter if you experience it

my neighbor recently told me that a friend of hers moved to some place back in pennslyvania and loved it because there were no blacks and no asians in the town...a sentiment she agreed with in assessing the desirableness of this communiy. she lacked any consciousness about saying that to me, yet i know she considers me a friend.

yet, i didn't feel "victimized" by her comment, because i know she's a product of her environment, and she has the right to determine desirableness however she chooses. what offended me was her lack of consciousness about expressing her opinion to me, someone she considers a friend. it changed my view of her, really.

this is very different from walking down the street and being called the n-word by someone driving by...this is usually how it happens, since most would be to cowardly to say it to my face. or any number of more subtle behaviorial things, like the shock i've seen on people's faces when i show up, and they were perhaps expecting somone other than me. the "elevator" phemonenon i've experienced when working in office buildings...the initial hestitation, that look of shock or fear before getting on. or the oft-repeated, "may i help you?" query in office buildings where i may have worked for years, often asked by people I have never seen in the building...and the undertone of "you don't belong here." then there is the "grocery store" phemomenon, most often displayed by older people who refuse to say "excuse me," and just stand there waiting for me to move...perhaps this was expected at one time.
i just let them stand there.

people have the right to be racist, if they choose. but they should have the good manners to keep that shit to themselves, or share it with like-minded people.

[ForrestGump]

104. Your neighbor

is kinda clueless, isn't she? Even if she happens to agree that White is Right, in terms of the perfect neighborhood, expressing it to you is kind of a moment deserving of the 'duh' label. On the other hand, maybe it's an illustration of the 'love is blind' principle - she considers you a friend and is, or has become, blind to the fact that people of your ethnicity would arbitrarily be considered a blight on her ideal neighborhood. I'd like it if the second were true, and maybe it is, but the 'duh' factor seems to so often apply to all too many people.

I know that feeling that accompanies the 'elevator' and 'may I help you' phenomena (even beyond contexts that had me a minority that stuck out because of skin color and, sometimes, the fact that I was 18 inches taller than everyone else in sight). In my case, in white-power-based Amerika and elsewhere where the original rules were made largely by and for white people, it's been a result of my verticality, my proportions perhaps given power to intimidate first through leather jackets and boots (best things to wear while riding a motorcycle) and often through a somewhat unkempt look that's more a result of not particularly caring what the mirror tells me than it is an indicator that I'm a crazed streetfighter. "Can I help you?" "No, nothing's significantly changed since you asked me 27 seconds ago. I'm just looking."

That sort of thing, that extended to being randomly stopped by police while walking, doesn't tend to happen as much now as it did in my '20s and early '30s, but I still get it. Not to minimize the racist equivalent that you experience - (a) fear or suspicion of a large man could be a survival adaptation, especially when he's decked out in leather or topped off with wild hair and forgot to shave for a couple of days and (b) maybe one day I'll actually start dressing like everyone and acting my age (please, no, don't let it be so), whereas victims of racism will never outgrow the attributes that have them targeted, at least as long as that racism exists.

[noiretextatique]

109. my neighbor is a nice lady who can't stand barbara bush

:D and who has seen many changes in the oakland of her youth. i think she noticed my reaction to her comment, and i think she took note of it. as i said, i understand she is a product of her environment, and eventually, i will forget it ever happened, since her actions towards have always been friendly.

i also have different experiences depending on how i am dressed, and how short or long my hair isn't at the time. a cop actually told me he stopped me and a friend once because he thought we were men.

my dad is a big guy, and he talks about how fearful people are of him at times, so i can understand where you're coming from. there does to be some sort of especial fear of large men. and size, like race, is something one can't change.

yes, those who "look" differently are targets for all kind of suspicion. i see that quite a bit here in the bay area, where folks love to defy convention. i enjoyed doing that myself when i was younger. i'm far too conventional to try it anymore, though you make it sound tempting. :D

[ForrestGump]

121. Oh no......

Now she's going to go out and get herself a mohawk, and it'll all be my fault.

No! Please! Don't do it!

On the bright side, maybe your neighbor was blinded to the color of your skin, despite the attitudes that she still has regarding the ideal neighborhood. Changing attitudes happens one person at a time, I guess. The question is, why did the policemen feel he had to stop two men who were just walking?

[noiretextatique]

123. driving whie black

i believe that's what it's called. not just two men, two black men...well, two black women with short hair. LOL...no mohawk for me...although our fellow DUer hellhathnofury used to sport one. the most daring thing i can imagine for myself is going bald...not completely...i'll just leave a shadow. a friend of mine has some condition that made her lose most of her hair, so she just shaves her head. she's so self-coonscious about it...i thought i'd shave mine so we could be twins. peace, FG...and thanks for the conversation. ps...i'm taking my neighbor a little gift today...just ot left her know there are no hard feelings :D

[ForrestGump]

130. DWB? Do they issue tickets for this?

From what I've seen on TV and heard elsewhere, they mostly just seem to skip straight to the corporal punishment.

I've been stopped a few times for WWTADILAN (Walking While Tall And Dressed In Leather At Night) but they didn't lay the corporal punishment on me. Couldn't find a corporal, I guess. Besides, a wall of leather skulking around at night is arguably somewhat suspicious, whereas if I was a black man I'd perhaps be inherently 'suspicious,' depending on the community, any time of day. Heck, if I were a black man I think I'd enter 'suspicious' in the 'race/ethnicity' box on official forms.

Seriously, the fact that I was stopped for no reason other than that I was big, dressed weirdly (in that particular area things were fairly middle-of-the-road, in general, and I really did mainly wear the leather because I was always zooming around on a motorcycle), had longish hair, and was in my late teens or early '20s infuriated me. It still does. What's sobering is that I appreciate that my few, minor innocent run-ins with the law are the background against which many people of other skin colors live their every day. And I've heard first-hand from black coworkers and friends (and some white ones, who were 'profiled' for reasons other than race) horror stories of roadside police detentions and treatment that I can only assume happen every day somewhere within the Republic. Scary, indeed!

Here's another thing that scares me: haircuts! I really need one, too (he says, parting his bangs so as to see the computer screen). But, you know, the clean-shaven look might grow on you (no pun intended) - it could look good. I guess your friend doesn't want to deal with wigs and all that and I really commend you for thinking about going sleek in solidarity. That's pretty darned cool. :-)

[Karenina]

131. ROTFLMAO!!!!

I hope I can type through the tears of laughter and irony!!!!

"DWB? Do they issue tickets for this?" Errrraaaa... YES, if they can find something. A friend had a house and studio in Beverly Hills which I visited from time to time. I FINALLY had to take a longer route home to Santa Monica to AVOID the B.H. police who would turn on the bubble gum machine ANYTIME they spotted my car. Here's just the last one which occurred as I was STOPPED at a red light. I was SO ANNOYED, I did the unthinkable. I turned off the motor, GOT OUT OF THE CAR and approached their vehicle.

Me: Is there a problem?
Officer: Are you aware your registration is almost expired?
Me: I wasn't aware that an ALMOST expired registration was against the law. Did you observe a moving violation or something amiss with my vehicle other than it begging for a new paint job?
Female partner (suppressing laughter): Leave her alone.

They followed me to the city limit.

IIRC, some years ago Stanley Clarke (bassist) who owns a house there was harassed for jogging through the street. He had only his keys on him and had to OPEN his front door before they would believe him.

Then there's the famous "San Diego walker." I think his first name was Edmund, VERY tall guy with long dreads who liked to walk miles a day and was CONTINUALLY stopped by the cops. He finally sued. I don't remember clearly that he was a lawyer, but I DO recall that he was EXTREMELY intelligent and well-spoken.

Then there was Al Joyner in his upscale car. Must be stolen... :eyes:

Don't worry FG, haircuts don't hurt!

[ForrestGump]

132. THAT's cool (well, not that you're crying, but.....)

I like the vision of you taking on the real Beverly Hills Cops (they have to have one of the fastest response times ever - and it looks like they can even prevent thought crimes far in advance). I'm just glad that you didn't get shot!

You know what your real crime was? Not driving dangerously enough. Yep. And you probably weren't even on a cell 'phone, or putting on makeup, or sahving your legs, or giving yourself a pedicure. They're nuts up there. Either that or you weren't driving the trendiest car du jour, or your lipstick clashed with the color of your upholstery. They're pretty strict about that kind of thing up there, too.

Yeah, I remember the whole Al Joyner thing. Totally insane. That's the kind of occurrence that I've had related to me by a couple of other people (in LA), too. And the San Diego walker sounds like my spiritual brother - I love it! I also love to walk, and in SoCal that alone is highly suspicious! ("lookit that deviant, walking in LA") Everyone knows that, as the song says, nobody walks in LA.

But I'm still not quite ready for the semi-annual haircut experience - I wish I could say that I'm growing my hair for peace, but that's not quite true. Do hairs feel? Do they have little hairy souls? These are the questions that disturb my well-thatched head as it rests, each night, uneasy on the pillow......

[noiretextatique]

137. standard procedure

this is what the cops told me after the last time they stopped me. to be fair, i didn't have my light on, and it was at night, but my registration, license and everything else was in order. and, when they asked me to turn my lights on, they say they were in working order...then they ordered me out of the car. btw, i found out having lights in working order is what's required by california law.

so...these two cops, in two separate cars, lights blaring, sirens, etc...pull over little old me in my little volvo sedan for driving without lights...something police routinely use the loudspeaker to alert a driver about, or flash their headlights, like regular people.

i gave them absolute HELL, at 10pm in downtown oakland. they scared the shit out of me...i mean...TWO CARS, lights, sirens...shit!! you'd think i'd just murdered someone or robbed a bank. i even asked them if they were looking for someone, in my attempt to understand :wtf: was going on, and they said: just standard procedure, ma'am. this was a brightly lit area downtown, and i had just left a class a my church, so it's not like i was on a dark country road. i am so sure people frequently forget to turn on their lights...i'd done it before.

a friend remarked on my courage in confronting them later, but at the time, i was just so annoyed and pissed, i didn't think about the potential danger. and, if people don't "go along" with this standard procedure...it will happen less frequently. 15 minutes and three charges later, i was released from this standard procedure. they were surprised to find i didn't have any marks on my driving record...nada.

$450.OO bail, three court appearances...and the judge threw the case out, and in utter disgust, i might add. they charged with with a few other things, as punishment for my attitude, you see. i wrote a suitabnly bitchy poem to process the experience, and i shared it with a few friends and family. in response, i got several truly frightening stories in return. one in particular involved a female cousin who was ordered out of her car a gunpoint for some trivial traffic violation. :shrug: maybe she looked like angela davis.

and i was lucky because i could post bail and go to court. most of the people in court didn't have the money to post bail, so they have to plead guilty in order to make payments on the fine...see how that works? it's quite a racket, and of course, it's mainly people who don't have money who are "guilty."

[ForrestGump]

139. Wo

Their 'standard procedure' sucks. They've got themselves a nice little earner there, by the sound of it.

I've heard that the Oakland police were pretty reasonable (well, at least lately - don't know how they were during the founding days of the Black Panthers) but maybe that's a pretty fluid and relative definition. They didn't sound like they were particularly 'reasonable' in your case - heck, it's the Church Lady on her way back home in her Volvo.....how threatening is that?

I've been flashed (lights, I mean) more than once by police, with no further pursuit, when I actually have been consciously breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit. They couldn't let you go with a timely flash of the headlights or a warning? Then again, I guess these were the people who used unwarranted and excessive force against anti-war protestors a few months ago.

A lot of policemen and -women are working hard and well ina thankless job, but some are just plain facists. I hope you don't run into these guys again.

[noiretextatique]

142. i am a supporter of the police as workers

i think they are asked to do some impossible shit for relatively low wages...and they deserve MORE. they need the support of the community to do their job, and in spite of this incident, i appreciate and support our police department...they have a difficult, and often thankless job. and the oakland police are relatively reasonable.

interestingly enough, after they ran me and found nothing, the older cop seemed a little embarrassed and even apologetic, but the younger rookie cop was just a jerk. hopefully, he will mature and drop the macho attitude.

i had a relatively minor problem with a neighbor...he loved to blare his music at 3am. after a few sleepless nights, i finally called the police. they came and straightened him out...and no more music!
and, when my nephew, who is schizophrenic, had a psychotic episode and was tearing up my sister's house, the police showed remarkable restraint in calming him down and defusing the situation. and this was the LAPD.

one or two bad apples don't spoil the whole lot, imho. however...there is still a lot of work to be done.

[ForrestGump]

144. I've known some great policepersons

but some towns do seem to have particularly.....aggressive.....police forces. 'Agressive' somewhat in the sense that Hitler's brownshirts were, I'd guess because some bad apples who never ripened up right pass on negative patterns to the young lions. Sad that your two-car stop could happen in one of the more reasonable enclaves in big-city USA.

I've had nothing but good interaction with LAPD, too, but the bad seeds there have (since the '70s) earned it a pretty lousy reputation, and some of my friends who have darker skin than mine are not big fans. I don't blame them, but it's a shame to see good men and women of the LAPD and other departments do what they do and yet still suffer from the slings and arrows (and, too often projectiles and edged weapons) of public opinion and of those who have been victimized by a minority of officers. I sure wouldn't want that job, no matter what.

[ForrestGump]

143. From the ACLU

Check this out....

"According to the 2000 census, whites comprise 31.3 percent of Oakland's population, yet they account for only 16 percent of vehicle stops, and 6.7 percent of motorists searched. African Americans, by contrast, make up 35.7 percent of Oakland's population, yet account for 48 percent of vehicle stops, and 65.8 percent of motorists searched."

Statistics don't necessarily tell the whole story but, still, those are pretty out-of-whack ratios.

http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=7256&c=118

[noiretextatique]

148. symbolic assailant

is a concept i learned about in a "law and psychology" class i took some years ago. in that class, we studied, among other things, how police are trained. i remember the concept of the "symbolic assailant" was used to profile what a criminal may look like, how he might dress, behave...and so on.

having grown up in LA, i have many stories about the LAPD, and the general "attitude" of police in the area where i grew up: south central. many people considered the police an occupying force...this was in the pre-integration days. my attitude was certainly shaped by the time and the community i grew up in. for example, my first memory of 'the police' was when i was about five...during the watts riots. the police were riding down the streets in my neighborhood (compton) with shot guns hanging out their windows. i will never forget it.

i don't know if you remember ronnie settles (he was murdered and hung in his cell by members of the sginal hill police dept) but i went to high school with him. i also remember another notorius case, that of eula mae love.
recently in san jose, there was a similar case. an asian (vietamese, i believe) woman was shot and killed...she had a large vegetable peeler in her hand that police considered threatening.

nope...statistics don't tell the full story, but the ones you posted are indeed telling.

[ForrestGump]

155. Hell, anyone who watched enough

episodes of "Hawaii Five-O," "Hill Street Blues," etc could come up with a 'symbolic assailant,' couldn't they?

Don't most civilians have a set of those, too, right or wrong? Kind of a survival tool. I always feel somehow apologetic when I'm walking on a trail or somewhere else that's secluded and I run into a solo woman who's coming the other way or, worse, pass her. It sure seems to me like I sense their fear, a fear that's well-founded if rape statistics are even partway indicative of what is going on out there, but even if I didn't I'd still feel incredibly self-conscious. I hate that, but it's the way it is. I hate the fact that it has to be that way at all....that rape exists.

I seem to recall the name Ronnie Settles - did they ever get the police who did that? I udnerstand that the LAPD had a particularly bad recordin the '70s, when they were enthusiastic wothy application of chokehold techniques that too often killed and seemed disproportionately used on black male suspects ('suspects' being a somewhat loose term). They may not be as bad as that, since the department was torn apart as a result, but groups of them have still been up to a bit no good and there always seem to be corruption cases ongoing.

There seem to be way too many stories, around the US, of unarmed suspects being shot and I really believe that many such incidents are a result of police officers being too unfit to restrain someone with non-lethal means (or, similarly, scared beyond reason because they know they're not up to the job). If I were a policeman I'd want to stay in top shape, because my life could depend on it. I've heard that some city departments have (or had, at least) stringent requirements in that respect but I suspect that most don't, and it seems like more and more police in some areas are getting bulkier and bulkier, the bulk having nothing to do with kevlar vests.

The Watts riots? Boy, what a thing to have witnessed any part of. The last time I spent any time in south-central LA it looked like a fair bit of the landscape hadn't recovered from those riots. Perhaps it's not surprising that attitudes that at least some hold toward the police, attitudes that are unfortunately reinforced too often nowadays, have also not faded entirely away.

[Karenina]

101. Alaine, YOU GO GIRL!!!

"shouldn't they be angry at the people that lied to them in the first place, instead of venting their anger on the real victims of the liars?"

:loveya:

[ForrestGump]

105. That's what's so infuriating, frustrating, and ultimately tragic about

poor white Americans who so vociferously support the Republicans. Excuse me, people, but can't you see that you're being used?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

160. When we recognize it as a human problem...

rather than a problem confined to one race; we may be able to do something about it.

While it's obviously been necessary for the downtrodden to band together to combat government-sanctioned oppression, one unanticipated result has been self-imposed isolation of many of these groups. The most positive result of this has been a deeper understanding of what it is to be black, a woman, gay, Wiccan, fat, and so forth. The most serious negative product has been the creation of the white male stereotype.

As frightening as it sounds, I believe we need to stop identifying with these isolated groups more strongly than we identify with our humanity. We can't hope to resolve the problem of prejudice unless we embrace victim and perpetrator as elements of our human selves.

[Karenina]

161. I was intrigued by your comment

In that I COMPLETELY agree that it is a HUMAN problem, however I would be very interested if you would be willing to elaborate on this statement,

"The most serious negative product has been the creation of the white male stereotype."

How do you see that as it relates to the power structure?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

163. As it relates to the power structure...

it's not entirely negative.

Perhaps the creation of the stereotype has helped open peoples' eyes to the absurdity of the pre-existing stereotypes. But at what expense?
To drag someone down with the hope of building others up?

Our only hope for getting beyond racism is to take the hands of those who perpetrate racism...and clearly it won't happen any time soon with the buffoons who occupy the White House.

I recently passed by a mural in Downtown DC which touched me deeply. It was a portrayal of Jesus helping an infirm man out of bed and a caption that read "Don't look down on a man unless you gonna lift him up".

[Karenina]

78. FG, Thanx so much for your response

Please permit me to engage you further.

Having had the experience of being in the "minority" you have tasted the poison. Forgive me harping on the semantics of it, I do so feel it's important. You are absolutely correct that I would call it prejudice, bigotry, uneducated, stupid, ignorant, destructive, sinnlos, asinine, (where's my damn thesaurus) and XENOPHOBIC.

However it is NOT "racist" in my strict definition. The reason I harp on this point is that you, in each instance, had a way out. Now the word "Xenophobia" brings us to another point. Given social skills IT is relatively easily overcome. In my experiences w-a-a-a-y outback in the rural Dorflands of Germany where it is rampant, the cure is as difficult as having the ability to communicate and scarfing down Omi's homemade apple strudel or stollen. The moment I up-end my fork, bang it on the table and recite, "Wir wollen mehr Stollen" the laughter begins and FEAR is dissolved. Not only that, I become "theirs" and they become my "Rückendeckung." Anyone who has a problem with it is prevented from direct access to me. My newly acquired "relatives" have the means, power and connexions to shield me from the ignorant amongst them and have NEVER failed to do so.

"I still consider those ill-feelings toward me a form of racism..."

This illustrates my point that when whites are confronted with a whiff of the poison gas the reaction is outrage. I should be very interested to understand the "racism" you have experienced in the U.S.
Obviously you've been to the corner and back.

My BIG issue is, NO you are NOT confronted with it daily. I AM. THAT is REALITY. You cannot really "grok" the LIFELONG cumulative effect and I pray you will not misunderstand what I am attempting to communicate to you.

When asked by German to explain the difference I perceive between "racism" here and in the U.S. I answer thusly:

Xenophobia is when you have never been exposed to "the other." Racism is when you have lived intimately with people, shared EVERYTHING, including bloodlines, supported each others' lives and families and are STILL regarded as somehow "inferior."

[ForrestGump]

92. I'm finally beginning to get it, I think,

the idea that 'racism' is a specific term that only makes sense in the context of being applied by a dominant culture. Or something like that, anyway. In that case, I was utterly wrong in my insistence that I'd been racist'ed in the US. My own experience as a victim of racism would therefore only include it as a transient thing, as I passed through other cultures where white people are an extreme oddity. Even then what little animosity I've thus far felt was probably more xenophobic or the result of my forebears having come through a century or two before me with guns and disease.

In practice, I've always lumped various forms of prejudice - racism, age-ism, size-ism, species-ism, xenophobia, et al - together as one big, nasty, human-wide phenomenon, not based their definition on specific historical circumstances or current societal dynamics. For the record, I don't see that as wrong, but I do see where you're coming from with your insistence on accurate usage of terms like 'racism.'

I certainly did not intend to dilute its real pain and struggle as experienced by people who, again solely because of inherited differences melanin levels, are perhaps always destined to have to work that much harder to achieve goals that only decades ago were barely even possibilities. You and I, as humans, may differ primarily only in our skins' SPF ratings, but you're right that there are deeper emotional and psychic differences that I'll never know as a white male within the US because I haven't walked that proverbial mile in your skin.

Under the definition of racism that you and some others have here presented - that I'm willing to accept is the correct one (I am not a sociologist, nor do I play one on television) - I have to say that I've never been the subject of racism in the United States, basically because it's impossible for me to by virtue of my skin color. In the United States I certainly had a way out - heck, in LA all I'd have to do is call the police on the offchance that my assailants would be beaten half to death, even before the circumstances are known (definitely no offense intended to the good guys who strive for the LAPD and risk it all daily) - and overseas I, sooner or later, at least had a ticket home.

So I'd amend what I said to reflect more the fact that I have been the victim of racial prejudice (I was going to write "unwarranted racial prejudice," but isn't prejudice unwarranted under its own definition?....provoked, perhaps, but not warranted) in the United States. I just didn't know that 'racism' was such a specific term - I have always equated racial prejudice with racism....sorry if I step on any toes with such semantic blundering. Of course, I'd probably still knee-jerk refer to epithets from any race as 'racist' comments, but at least if I'm questioned about it I can say "well, um, I actually meant prejudiced, bigoted comments."

Like you, my brushes with xenophobia have been few and mostly brief. The general rule, at least for places that I've been for short or long periods of time, seems to be that most people are willing to accept me as an individual. And if I'm sensitive to this new environment, to a place that is theirs and not mine and that may not work like the places that I'd grown up in or visited before, it's far less likely that I'll end up on the wrong end of a xenophobe. Of course, incorrigible xenophobes are out there, though I've yet to encounter anywhere near the level of xenophobia overseas that I have in the United States. Personal calamities aside (those that may have embittered a person against a particular nationality), perhaps that's evidence enough that xenophobia is one of the many faces of ignorance.

[Karenina]

102. Yo FG, I DO SO appreciate your responses

as they make me feel we're actually making progress!!! :bounce:

"I was never an active participant in the goings-on that led to..."

I hear this from kids born 40 years after WW2 in Germany. My response to them is "Fuck the shit they're trying to lay on you. Check out what happened, get CLEAR on it and make your OWN decision about how best to deal with it. No, YOU are not "guilty" and those who say so are trying to manipulate you." What's important is to recognize the patterns, historically and "zwischen uns." Those will tell you, if you have the ability to think critically, EVERYTHING that you need to know.

As for my own personal soap opera, and getting back to the original topic, I jes wanna play mah music. The dominant culture makes it EXTREMELY difficult for me to simply sit down in my assigned chair and do what I was well-trained to do best. Just like any "normal" person. It is a DAILY source of pain and ALSO has an effect on my ability to feed, house and clothe myself and my kid. My colleagues will complain to me that they have too much to do but will NOT DARE to say, "can you do this gig" SIMPLY because of all the issues surrounding my melanin level and how that might reflect on THEM. (Suppose she has a "bad reed" that day?) It's SO PAINFUL AND AWFUL, FG. REALLY. I WISH that before I leave this earth that I, as an incredibly versatile oboist, who can and has gone places the oboe has not been before, executing in genres that few double-reed players have ever explored, will be acknowledged for the content of my character and talent, rather than seen as an anomalie because of the color of my skin.

The best (although "left-handed") compliment I EVER received was from my homie who is the soloist in a symphony. Upon listening to something I'd recorded he remarked, "Oh GREAT. NOW we have to be subtle too."

[ForrestGump]

106. Well, jeez, I was a bit slow with figuring out what 'racist' means

But nobody likes that kind of nastiness directed toward them under any definition. As a great man once said, "Lieutenant Dan didn't want to be called 'crippled,' just like I didn't want to be called 'stupid'."

Your pain over being hobbled in pursuit of your musical dreams would really make me sad if I wasn't so busy being mad over it. You're right - in the context of my own life, anyway (I wouldn't presume to speak for all white persons) - no matter how many other prejudices I might have to do battle with I do not have to, in my society, both strive to prove myself and to not upset the apple cart just because I'm the 'wrong' color for my ambitions. I mean, I bet that if I wanted to become a rapper or a bluesman I could do it, and succeed or fail on my own merits. Sure, there'd probably be comments (from all sides and colors) about it, raising the spectre of Vanilla Ice, but it's already been done and I'd have the unasked-for advantage of being part of the still-dominant ethnicity in this country.

Not that I'm saying that that white blues singers and musicians (and even Eminem - *bleh* - on the rap side) are pirates who stole a musical form, but the point is that if a white person wanted to make it in those musical forms they'd face far less of a struggle for acceptance. If you're not only competent but uniqely talented as an oboist then you should be free to go as far as you want to or can, solely on the basis of your talent. That's supposed to be one of the things that the USA stood for though, in practice, it rarely has for people with other-than-white dermal cells. That really....well, what that really makes me feel involves a lot of naughty words and violent imagery.

Is there some other place where it would be practical and desirable to move you and yours, where the prospects are likely to be better in that respect? A city, a state, or a country? If so, you wouldn't be the first to have succeeded with realizing your career path as an exile, either regionally or internationally.

[Karenina]

113. I'm learning not to be "mad" about it

because if I dare express anger, it only hobbles me further. I would be labeled "the bitter one." Like when Mr-world-renowned trumpet player came through the door, saw me on stage and said "SHE thinks SHE can play with US?" jumped up onto the bandstand, GRABBED ME BY MY LIP and dragged me across the stage until my "Poppy and teacher" realized what was happening and grabbed him by the scruff of the neck saying, "Nigger are you CRAZY? That's MY little girl!" and pulled him off me. (Poppy is a BIG GUY!) The guys in the rhythm section simply watched, not one made a made a move. I had already clenched my fist but hesitated thinking, SHIT if I HIT this guy I will be FOREVER branded as the girl who popped Mr X upside the head. ALL THE PRESS ARE HERE!! It was slow motion but he was finally taken out of my space. I played "Round Midnight" and the reviewers were kind. NO MENTION of the attack.

Clora Bryant and Dorothy Donegan ganged up on me one day down at Local 47, insisting I get my skinny black behind OUT of the US of A. I protested that my kids were too young for me to leave. I'll never forget what Clora said, "If you stay here and let these men KILL YOU, you are of no use to your babies. They WILL kill you. Get the fuck outta here."

It IS a tiny bit different in Europe. Just different enough that I remain among the living. Last year I did yet another "first" as I was included in a project of Miles Davis' original score of "Spain." Hey, that's PROGRESS.

[ForrestGump]

114. Somewhere out there is a trumpet player who

is just begging for a piccolo to be forcefully introduced to the wrong orifice. What a fruitcake.

At least it must have been plainly apparent to all that he was off his head, not that the heroes on stage were exactly galvanized into rhythmic action by it. I'm glad you didn't bop him - not that he didn't richly deserve it - but because you're probably right, it probably would have backfired on you. As I've matured I've learned to control the impulses of my youth and I heartily concur that hasty, violent response, no matter how justified, was not the appropriate response - the appropriate response would have been to wait 'til after the gig and lay in wait for the sonofabitch, with a two-by-four, in the nearest dark alley. :-)

Egad.......you left the USA under potential threat of death? Then again, I suppose that that's not exactly going to be all that uncommon in these times, for a variety of reasons. That's nuts, though. What's wrong with people? Who did you play for - the Mafia? Jeez....

I know that Europe - France, anyway - was traditionally a refuge for black American expats (among others) who could never have gone as far in the US, but from what I've heard the level of overt racism even in places like France has risen over recent decades. Could there be some other part of the US that offers a less restrictive and stifling arena for you? It's your business where you go, and the reasons why you go there, but I do hate to think of someone literally exiled from this country by hatred and prejudice severe enough to cause concern for personal safety. That's messed up.

I imagine that it'd be less severe if you were in a field wherein being of African heritage was not a particular shock to anyone; it's usually those (of any skin color, in many fields) who try to excel in an unusual occupation, or who rise up above the norm, who end up inspiring vehement ugliness in others. Bozos.

Hey, but congratulations on the Miles Davis project..... :-)

[Karenina]

124. Sorry, I wasn't clear...

It wasn't the threat of physical death, they were referring to the spiritual death, the never-ending psychic warfare, "stealth" attacks, hazing, snide comments, snubs, outright lies, two-faced behaviour to which women playing jazz are subjected. Unless they're Diana Krall or Candy Dulfer ;-) :evilgrin: ;-)

Actually, I think the best indicator of a woman's potential to succeed in jazz is close male relatives or a spouse in the biz.

Those 2 "foremothers of jazz" had seen it all, been there and done that.
Funny story. Clora took her grandchild to visit "Auntie" Dorothy on her deathbed and asked her to say a little prayer. "I don't know what to say, Gramma." Dorothy sat straight up and barked, "You better come with something QUICK, girl, cuz I'm outta here!"


Of course, everyone who EVER came in context with Mr X knows he was L-O-O-N-E-Y TUNES. I didn't at the time and was a HUGE FAN. The incident completely traumatized me. There was NO place to go with the anger.

The stuff that goes on in the classical world is pretty outlandish. But I'll tell ya, the jazz world makes it look like child's play.
Can white people play jazz???? :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
Is THAT a racist question????? :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:

I'm SUCH a naughty girl!!!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

125. Can white people play jazz?

Can white people play jazz?
Of course it's the same question.

Listen to 'Mingus Ah Um' and try to figure out by ear the skin color of the players...

I'm not sure what your point is, but, sometimes I'm a little dense in the face of irony...

[Karenina]

133. Na Du, Feanorcurufinwe

I got my tongue stuck SO FAR in my cheek I fear it may come out through the other side. The racist, sexist, bigoted issues that are a constant undercurrent in the jazz world would curl your hair if it's straight and straighten it if it's curly!!! IT IS REEEE-DICK-YOU-LOSS!!!! It serves NO positive purpose and could be the subject of another L-O-N-G thread all on its own. There are LOTS & LOTS of VERY prickly, nasty "issues."
Man-o-man IT'S ALL SOOOOO FLIPPIN' DENSE!!!

I remember as a 7 year-old talking to my dad about racism, telling him what had happened at school (I integrated mine and from 2nd grade till high school never saw another black face in class) and asking, "Daddy, when I grow up will it get better?" I CLEARLY REMEMBER the look of pain on his face and his hug, assuring me it would...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

136. what does 'Na Du' mean?

n/t

[Karenina]

149. It's a "familiar" affectionate greeting

and usually sounds like, Naaaaaa, Duuuu. It's like "Oh you, wassup?"

[ForrestGump]

156. Hey, I knew if I stuck around DU I'd learn all sorts of stuff

Naaaaaa Duuuuu!

Here we go - use it in a sentence:

"Hey, patriotic American, do you belong to Free Republic?"

"Nah, DU. Now %#@* you"

:-)

[ForrestGump]

128. Can white people play jazz? Can a piccolo be played

purely through the force of one's flatulence?

Lemme see....A) yes, but not me, and B) I don't know, but I'd like to get hold of that dude and find out.

Pretty rough when your heroes, or others you look up to, turn out to be maniacs or thoroughly disagreeable. Sounds like a good punching bag might be something worth gettong hold of - it's a great way to relieve stress and dissolve (some of the) anger, and you get the bonus of a workout and a mean punch. Anyway, I'm relieved that you didn't have some kind of string-quartet death squad after you, not that spiritual death is something to look forward to, either.

And I might just have to reserve that death-bed line for myself, too. The only trick will be to set it up so someone says "I don't know what to say."

[ForrestGump]

129. P.S.:

no, i'ts not a racist question.

See, huh? I'm learning. Proud of me?

:-)

But it is a potentially prejudiced question. Oo - shame on you.

[Karenina]

134. The Rain in Spain Falls Mainly On the Plains

I THINK HE'S GOT IT!!!! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[ForrestGump]

135. By George, I passed. I passed!

And, for next week's lesson.....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

153. FG, reading through this thread and your interactions

with Karenina and noiretblu has been one of the most transformative experiences for me ever while reading DU. Having witnessed the three of you work through what was a conceptual analysis (the semantics) to a place where shared experiences made them real made my heart happy.

On a Sunday afternoon when I was a bit consumed by the hopelessness of it all, to have read this was the greatest gift.

It was like watching an onion peel layer after layer.

Thanks...to all but especially to you Forrest for your openness in the interaction with noire and K.
:toast:

I'm a better person for having read it.

[ForrestGump]

157. Don't know what to say

except



everybody gets a big hug.

And some love

:loveya:


Thanks, NSMA

[Pert_UK]

6. It's the understandable conclusion from listenning to UB40.......

:evilgrin:

OK, so some of the band are black.......maybe the influence of the white members has got nothing to do with the fact that they're the most appalling shite on the face of the earth.

One must not generalise from the particular!

P.

[catpower2000]

23. ROFLMAO

Exactly. Exactly.

[mrfrapp]

8. It is

Any statement that groups a segment of the population by a superficial characteristic is by definition, prejudiced. If that statement also states that the group in question can't do something because of that superficial characterisation then I would consider that a hostile prejudice.

It's an ignornant statement, no matter who makes it.


(edit: grammer)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

10. It is stupidity. My evidence for this is the fact that

Orchestra de la Luz is one of the finest salsa bands. Saying white people can't play reggae would be synonomous to saying Japanese people can't play salsa. Orchestra De La Luz is a Japanese orchestra.

I don't equate all stupid comments with racism since racism infers racial superiority and privilege.

Maybe a bigoted comment but not a racist one.

[JackSwift]

11. It's racist to listen to ethnic music?

Why? Ask them to support the statement with logic.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. I've never heard anyone say that in my life.

n/t

[Runesong]

13. Cool user name Feanor son of Finwe

I have been reading the Silmarilion this week. I am up to chapter 16. It is very tedious to read, kind of like the long list of "begats" in the bible. ugh, does it get better, or should I bail? :)

[Runesong]

15. And yes,

that remark was racist.

[Chovexani]

25. The Silmarilion is lousy

And this is coming from a die-hard pre-Movies Tolkien fan (used to pass notes in school in Elvish, and get beat up for it).

Seriously, only read it for completion's sake, or if you really REALLY love Elves. I mostly use it as a reference for D&D stuff.

[Dirk39]

14. No reply...

I guess noone ever told Jah Wobble that he or she doesn't like his music, 'cause white people can't play reggae...
Did I ever hear of any white musician, who wasn't allowed to play reggae, 'cause black people prevented him from playing reggae?
No never heard such a story!
Did I ever hear of any black musician, who wasn't allowed to play classical music, 'cause white people prevented him from playing or studying classical music?
I heard a thousand stories. Look at Jazz, listen to Ron Carter.
Only few white people can play black music, for what reason ever, but those who can, rareley heard racist comments. Maybe those who can't?!
Think of Bo Babbit (he second bass-player for motown), think of Duck Dunn, the main bass-player for Stax all through the years...
Did you ever hear someone saying: O Stax is just fine, but that white guy playing the bass, he can't get the funk right?
Greetings from Germany,
Dirk

[noiretextatique]

16. i'd like to hear karenina's comments on this

i believe she mentioned she is a classical musician.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. Black classical musicians

Andre Watts
Awadagin Pratt--both piano
Wynton Marsalis (only person ever to win Grammies for both classical and jazz)
James DePreist--recently retired conductor of the Oregon Symphony
Others whose names I will recall at 3AM or so
And did you know that Louis Farrakhan was trained as a classical violinist?

Lots of black classical/opera singers:
Marian Anderson
Paul Robeson
Leontyne Price
Jubilant Sykes
Kathleen Battle
Shirley Varrett
Denice Graves
Simon Estes
William Warfield
Robert McFerrin (Bobby's dad)

[Karenina]

22. A challenge

1. Name ONE classical instrumentalist of color, (soloist) whose CDs can be found on the shelves of your local music purveyor.

(Wynton doesn't count. Hey Lydia, I'm really impressed you're hip to Pratt!!! BIG TIME EXTRA CREDIT for a FEMALE pianist).

2. Name ONE well-known chamber ensemble that includes a black member or members.


And if you're willing to pursue this discussion with me further, do please post your thoughts on WHERE this "segment" of the classical world may be hiding.

[Rabrrrrrr]

29. What do you mean by "Of Color"?

Do you mean black? Or does that include Asian, Brazilian, Jewish, and Middle-Eastern, Indian/Pakistani/etc.?

Just asking - people often have different interpretations of "of color", just as they often have differing opinions on what it means to be "African" and "Asian" (Egypt is African, South African whites are African... and Russia is Asian, but never included in "Asian").

But if you mean "of color" being "black", I can't name any soloists, other than Wynton.

I know of Alvin Singleton, think his music is great, and I think that a black composer is even more impressive than a black soloist.

As to question Number 2, no answer on that one, either.

Though I have seen an increase in the number of black musicians attending Manhattan School of Music, playing in the orchestra, and I"m sure that while some are there for the jazz program, I bet a number of 'em are hoping for careers in the classical world. That's exciting!

And one also has to ask this very important question: if there is a dearth of black players in the classical world, is that because of racism, or because of lack of interest? Is it necessarily bad that there aren't any/many? Or does it mean, that music has no value to them, and why should we expect/suggest/push them into embracing the music of a culture that pretty much tried to wipe 'em out?

[Karenina]

49. Thank you for your thoughtful post, Rabrrrrr,

I purposely used the expression "of color" hopping some sensitive soul would pick up on it. If you include "all of the above" excluding "Jewish" as our numbers cross all racial "boundaries," it is still clear that something is amiss. Many would like to assume a general lack of interest, exposure or talent which in the larger spielraum "may" have some validity. But think about why there are few women in the engineering field as a model.

The point I'm trying to raise is that of the "glass ceiling." People "of color" in the classical world are SYSTEMATICALLY denied access. And when they DO break through, it is NO picnic. It's more a question of once having jumped all those hurdles, being subjected to a never-ending demand to "prove" one's worth. G_d forbid you should have a "bad night." I often felt the weight of the entire race on my shoulders. I am NOT ALLOWED to be anything but perfect and even if I attain that am STILL subject to disapprobation. It is like being surrounded by a circle of armed people whose guns are trained at your head. It is CRAZY-MAKING.

It's not "bad" that there may not be many, it's BAD that those of us who have excelled, paid our dues and are MORE than qualified (we HAVE TO BE TO GET THAT FAR) receive a psychic stomping for our efforts. Can you imagine having earned a degree from Juilliard and being asked, "But can YOU read music?"

Ever heard any Willam Grant Still??? Do check him out!

[Rabrrrrrr]

53. You are welcome. I like your third paragraph.

I think of things like this because I am involved so deeply in church work, and every now and again I hear a (well-meaning) parishioner/friend/person say "We need more african people" or "we need more hispanic" people in this church. And while I totally agree we should never turn people away, I wonder what is the point of trying to recruit a "type" of person who is barely represented in the community to begin with, let alone who likely would have no interest in the kind of worship the statement-maker might be doing. We get that a lot at one my churches, and I cringe, because the obvious answer is this: a) the hispanic people who ARE in that neighborhood don't speak English, and our church doesn't speak spanish, and b) most are Catholic or Pentacostal already, which my church is not, so it's not like they aren't getting any Jesus at all if they aren't at our church.

So why WOULD they want to come? And we have no moral fault for them not being here. Just like my home church, back in WI, can't be faulted for not having any signigicant number of african people, becuase my home COUNTY doesn't have any significant number of African people. Or hispanic. Or Asian. Or not much of anything that isn't German or Norse descent.

But, I agree with you totally on your third paragraph - it's not bad, necessarily, that they aren't there, but it IS bad if, once there, they're treated like crap, held down, and made impossible to achieve.

I can't imagine what it must be like to be in the situation of knowing that your every move is being watched. I can only compare it with what women ministers and engineers go through. I went to engineering college, with only 30% female at the time (it has now just over 50% women!), and I know the women took some abuse there (though not much, since by that time, I think most of the guys were used to having science-interested women around them), but I'm sure they took much more at the work sites, where they were working with much older engineers who were NOT used to having "intelligent" females around them.

I hate to think of how bad it would be in the classical world, where if you aren't white or Jewish or Japanese, you're definitely odd person out. And I imagine even for the Japanese or the Chinese, it's still somewhat tough, but given that when I go to Manhattan School of Music, the orchestras each look to be a good 50% or so foreign Asian nationals, I don't know if it's so tough for Asians any more.

[Karenina]

56. Let me relate to you one experience.

Playing 2nd English Horn in the Bach "Christmas Oratorio." I'm not in any way shape or form on a "hot seat" just sitting there blowing air, pressing buttons and totally getting off on the sincerity of the combined community choruses from the area. They were GREAT!!! Grandparents to teenies, they were all that and a bag o'chips.

The conductor stops, CERTAIN she has heard something amiss in the oboe section. We do a sectional through the bars delineated, at one point she looks up giving me the most evil eye and I simply smile back as my fucking part is TACIT. Yeah, I knew exactly where the mistake was and who made it, SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL.

As for older musicians, my warped experience is the people who treated me with the MOST respect were mostly older men. They KNEW my instrument and were thrilled and delighted that I was taking it further. They were supportive and protective. Bob Cooper, Buddy Collette, Lou Levy, George Coleman, George Gaffney, Rudy Thomas, Jimmy Webb, Mal Waldron ALL recognized the "content of my character" and ALSO recognized I was a target for those who didn't "get it." I am eternally grateful to them all for their support.

Sure, Asian string players get a "free pass" at this point. Try being a Korean opera singer...

[noiretextatique]

82. yes...i know what it's like

it's like being an accountant and being asked if you know how to use accounting software....the person is dead serious, and i stare back in utter disbelief. instead of reacting in anger, i just say "yeah, i'm actually a REAL accountant." or when i read my poetry, having someone tell me how great my "rap" was...the person is dead serious and i stare back in utter disbelief. no snappy reply this time...i just walked away...why bother :shrug:
it wouldn't matter if i was reading a sonnet in the style of shakespeare...

[Chovexani]

26. And don't forget

Jessye Norman! My absolute favorite opera singer.

[Karenina]

67. Let me stir up the pot a little here...

:evilgrin: How many of the female opera singers are married to black men? Tee-hee-hee! :evilgrin:

[Karenina]

99. Hmmmm...

No one seems willing to even TOUCH this one! Tee-hee-hee :evilgrin:

[noiretextatique]

35. did you know

michael morgan is the conductor of the oakland symphony? i live in oakland.

[Karenina]

55. I guess I don't count.

n/t

[Karenina]

46. Ich bin's!

HI NOIRETBLU!!! :hi: :loveya: :hi:

SUPER POST, Dirk!!! Mit sicherheit kannst Du meine Meinungen verstehen.
Meine erfahrungen in Deutschland sind ähnlich aber die Hintergrund ist TOTAL anders und denke ich ein bißchen zu schwerig hier für Amerikaner zu eklaren.

[blondeatlast]

17. IMHO, if you have to ask, then it's racist.

nm

[caribmon]

18. having lived in the Caribbean

Having lived in the Caribbean for ten years as a white mon.... I can say that white people can play reggae. No arguement. However, the legitimacy of the 'movement' was shattered when they kicked out all the white reporters at the last repatriation convention in Barbados. I lost all and utter respect for the Rasta movement in one full sweep when the delegate from the island I lived on for over a decade chose to have me removed as a journalist from the room because of the colour of my skin.

[Karenina]

66. I remember that flap

and could only shake my head at the utter stupidity of it all. It seemed to me to be an expression of deep resentment, an expression by those who felt, once again, ripped off by de white mon... Does that context make any sense to you?

There is also a corollary in jazz, which I will say more about after I think through how to express my understanding of the dynamic.

Ever heard of a white woman being fired from her job for wearing cornrows? I know LOTS of whites who have been harassed for dreadlocks...

It's ALL so interminably STUPID and DESTRUCTIVE.

[curse10]

19. Well, both statements are wrong

white people can play reggae.

and black people can play classical.

The cello player in my string quartet is black. And my white boyfriend used to play in a reggae band. :-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. Well of course I think it's racist

Well of course I think it's racist, that's why it ticks me off so much! But I was posting on another bulletin board where some people just didnt get it... I knew here I would find some folks to agree with me... sometimes it's nice to be reassured that you are not the only one in the world who thinks as you do.

[Gringo]

27. Dunno. I think it's nice to explore and get into other cultures.

But I sometimes wonder about people of one race "pretending" to be members of another - makes me wonder if they're ashamed of their own heritage.

Even with all the shameful things Europeans have done through the ages, I am still very proud of my heritage, and the good things Europeans have accomplished, and I would not pretend to be anything else, though I enjoy music and foods of many other cultures.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. pretending

I think one of the things that leads people in the direction of saying 'whites can't play reggae' is when you see a reggae band and (for example) the white singer is singing with a phony Jamaican accent! But it is simply the difference between 'imitation' and actually playing a style of music and making it your own. I like to play reggae - but I am not trying to pretend to be Jamaican or a rasta. Did you ever hear someone play a Dylan song and when they sing - they kinda imitate Dylan? who would want to do that? the point is to make that song your own and sing it in your own voice.
Gray area - I've also heard people say of someone's playing - 'too white'. Which may sound just as racist on the face of it, but I don't think it is - since we are not talking about the person's race but the music they are producing. However, it does have a racist attitude at its base.

[Rabrrrrrr]

42. ooh - well said

What I was trying to say at the end of my other post (#41), is what you said here. Well said:

But it is simply the difference between 'imitation' and actually playing a style of music and making it your own. I like to play reggae - but I am not trying to pretend to be Jamaican or a rasta. Did you ever hear someone play a Dylan song and when they sing - they kinda imitate Dylan? who would want to do that? the point is to make that song your own and sing it in your own voice.

on edit: fixed typo

[Karenina]

86. I have been a musician my entire life

I was tutored by my parents, neither of whom had a chance of a snowball in hell to pursue their "bliss." My mom was an accomplished pianist AND cellist who, as an alternative, earned her doctorate in education. She was bitter for decades that she was not "allowed" to play the piano. My dad, a neuropsychiatrist, was a tenor. Both of them put classical music on the Victrola to lull me to sleep as an infant. Not only was I exposed to the 3Bs, big band, jazz, R&H, G&S were also on the playlist. To this day, a half century later I can WRITE OUT every solo on the "Child's Introduction to the Orchestra." Go ahead, tell me it's not my "heritage."

Please indulge me in explaining my personal "core values" about music.

Music is a language that transcends words, geography, "race," backround and whatever limitation anyone might attempt to put on it. We who pursue it, despite ANY obstacle, are beyond the reach of those who will NEVER understand. There is no blame in that statement. How can you? I MUST PLAY or my soul DIES. It is something that only the most sensitive of my colleagues understand. Playing the oboe at the level I have achieved CANNOT be a "hobby." I don't fucking CARE about the "money." For me it's PLAY OR DIE. You don't like what I do? Turn off the machine or leave the room. I cannot injure you by offering what comes from my heart and experience.

I remember when Paul Simon did his bit with the South Africans and a student from Howard was OUTRAGED. I tell you, OUTRAGED that he was "using" them. I wanted to grab the kid by the ears and bang his head against a wall. "YOU FUCKING TWIT! WERE IT NOT FOR THE RECOGNITION OF ONE WHO HAD THE POWER TO BRING THIS MUSIC TO YOU, YOU WOULD NEVER HAVE HEARD IT ASSHOLE!!!"

Please SPARE us all the pigeonholes.

My process is to make whatever I hear my own. There is NO WAY I can achieve the virtuosity of a Bulgarian musician; I did not grow up there and the subtleties, YES I HEAR IT, YES, my colleagues realize that I DID hear it, no, I can't really do it as they do- BACK to my woodshed to get as close as I can- because IT SPEAKS TO ME. When in the presence of a Gnaua master, surrounded by 25 Morroccans with my "western" instruments, asking the players if they would kindly match MY pitch on their "primitive" instruments (which they did without hesitation) I did my VERY BEST and the Master PATTED ME ON THE HEAD and said to everyone present, SHE DID WELL. NO ONE ELSE'S opinion matters to me. He KNEW I HEARD it even if it was beyond my capacity to reproduce it completely accurately.

Any musician who takes upon himself the task of exploring this language has a FREE PASS to do so. Anyone can like it or not.

Imitation is the sincerest compliment.

[Rabrrrrrr]

103. Was all that directed at me?

I hope I never implied that one should never reach outside one's culture, and/or attempt to play with others and attemp to learn of them through their music. Egads, my life would suck.

One of the kids in my youth group, student at LaGuardia, had the pleasure of singing at Carnegie Hall a couple months ago with many of those African musicians that Paul Simon introduced to us. Great evening! All those great musicians, with a select group of LaGuardia choir members backing them up, was fantastic. And then, at the very end, Paul Simon came out and sang along with them. great stuff! And the kid in the youth group? He's Turkish-Cuban. I would never say he should not have been singing with them.

If Steve Reich hadn't studied in Africa....
If Philip Glass hadn't met Ravi Shankar...
if Paul Simon hadn't taken that trip to Africa...
If the Beatles hadn't gone to India...
If those guys in Britain hadn't taken our great black bluies artists that our country ignored and brought the music back to the US in a new form...

So, please, I'm never saying people shouldn't play music from other cultures. I AM saying, if they do it, make it their own, while also trying to maintain the integrity of the original. I'm also saying that, no matter how much we might apprpriate the music of other cultures, we will never fully grok it, becuase we're not of that culture. I don't think a German could ever fully understand Mark Twain, though that German might very well entirely enjoy Twain, and think the world of him as a writer.

Such is the nature of art, I think, that it IS very cultural specific. it also has the wonderful power to cross those cultural boundaries, and it is one of the few ways to actually begin TO understand another culture. Or another person. If one wants to know more about me, one really, beyond talking with me, should listen to the music I compose, and the paintings I paint. Much more of me is there, than is in, normally, the "me" you meet.

I'm sure it is the same for you, too.

[Karenina]

107. NO, my darling Rabrrrrr, NO NO

Bitte! We are in total agreement!!!

"I AM saying, if they do it, make it their own, while also trying to maintain the integrity of the original. I'm also saying that, no matter how much we might apprpriate the music of other cultures, we will never fully grok it, becuase we're not of that culture."

But our EFFORTS to get there are FULLY APPRECIATED by those who grok the idea that WE ARE ONE!!!

"I don't think a German could ever fully understand Mark Twain, though that German might very well entirely enjoy Twain, and think the world of him as a writer."

Here I must disgree. Twain wrote a piece titled "The Awful German Language." It is 10 pages long and even though I've read it at least that many times I double over in fits of laughter each time I re-read it. Only those who are bi-lingual can REALLY get it. I've NEVER been able to dicuss it fully with my German friends because we always end up laughing so hard the tears are streaming down our faces.

"Journalismus in Tennessee" is one I've never read in Englisch. The translation I have is so exquisite I can feel the connexion and know no detail fell by the wayside. At some point I will read the original text. Twain is VERY popular here amongst my university student friends. The other thing is that people who are into him will probe their native Englisch speaking friends to make SURE they've understood EVERY detail. It's a cultural thing. Language is a BIG TOPIC here, as the German language has only recently been "codified." You can't get away from it. My elderly next door neighbor (Kölsch) and my aunt (Hessich) have NO CHANCE to understand each other save the efforts of Duden (Hoch Deutsch). We're talking a distance of 100 miles here!!!

But getting back to music, IF IT FEELS GOOD, DO IT!!! I'm SO into Turkish music, but must find some way to bridge the cultural gaps. Those who have heard me PLAY it are always impressed that I've found ways to accommodate the quarter tones on my very western ax. I'm NOWHERE NEAR where I'd like to be, but it's so wonderful when those who have grown up with it look at me with big eyes and give me a BIG SMILE saying, "Hey, you GOT that!!!" It's ALL about the desire to communicate. SO, I got a funny "accent." SO WHAT? Did you understand what I said?

[Rabrrrrrr]

118. Whew! I was pretty sure we were on the same wavelength...

but wasn't quite sure after that one. :-)

I am so sorry i've not been able to hang on this thread today - I'm leaving for a week long conference, and have been preparing all day for it, so have been out of the apartment, but checked and read this thread every time I came home.

For me, this has been one of the most entertaining and enlightening. Would have been nice to chat more on the cultural/societal part of art and music, but, well, that's how it is. I've found your conversation with FG to be excellent - had I had the time, I would have jumped in a number of spots.

Sadly, I leave in the morning, and will have no DU for the entire week, and so will no longer be reading this thread. I'm quite sad about that.

Perhaps we can talk music and culture at some later time! I've been damn happy just to get my music performed, and haven't cared about skin color (or religions) of performers at all. And if I had cared, I'd have missed out on some good performances. I even wrote one piece specifically for an African-American woman (or perhaps more correctly, a Carribean-African-American woman?) because she is a good friend, and had the power and range I needed.

And thinking in terms of your post 113 or 114 or so, I say, Screw anyone who looks at skin color and thinks it affects their abilities. Christ, if you graduate Juliard, you're a bona fide musician, not a "black person" who plays "white music". Lots of people I'd like to haul off and pop once or twice or thrice. Too many ignorant people, not enough time to train 'em all. :-)

(and in regards to twain, you're right - I should have realized NOT to use German as the example! More rightly, I would have said "A Tongan" or "an Indian", perhaps even "A Frenchman". But yes indeed, the Germans have a handle on Twain.)


And you said: But our EFFORTS to get there are FULLY APPRECIATED by those who grok the idea that WE ARE ONE!!!

And that is entirely true - same with language. when I first moved to Hawaii, I was very diligent in learning the language (not to speak it, just to pronounce the streets and city names, etc.), and once I had that down, as the mainlander haole I am, and did it so quickly, I had a pretty good "in" with the locals. And the same, of course, with the music, as long as one gives it the ol' college try with honesty and integrity. :-)

And I can never truly put into words how the Old Testament opened up for me after I learned Hebrew. So much of it (any language) is contained not even so much in the meaning of the words, but in the words themselves, how they're formed, and the syntax, and to see the puns in Hebrew, and come closer to feeling how their brains organized data and formed thoughts. Magnificent!

Anyway, I shall sign off, and I'm sure see this thread die by next Saturday, but perhaps I can find it in the archives.

Keep on making music and filling the world with beauty, because we need people with the courage to do art.

[Rabrrrrrr]

30. What do they mean by "can't"?

Does the statement say "White people don't have the inherent natural ability to groove to reggae and play it well"

or is it saying "White people have no moral right to play reggae".

I would call the first racist. I could be convinced to agree with the second.

[Character Assassin]

31. That's just silly

I would call the first racist. I could be convinced to agree with the second.

How could you be convinced of that? There is no music exclusive to any one, particular pigmentation.

[Rabrrrrrr]

33. because of the political and social environment

from which reggae was born.

I didn't I *was* convinced, I said I *could be*. If the argument were persuasive enough.

[sirshack]

32. I'd say it is...

...but is it really that big a thing to get in a huff about? If you said a could never be President because they're , , and ...that's worth getting upset over. But if someone told me I couldn't play reggae just because I was white, I'd probably shrug it off.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. it depends on what is more important to you

it depends on what is more important to you - if you are a white musician passionate about reggae and someone tells you only black people can play reggae you probably won't shrug it off.

more perspective: this came up as a side issue in a discussion at a different website where someone is arguing that you can't be a 'real' bluegrass musician if you are not from the south. Now that's not racism... I don't know what you'd call it... 'geographism'? (or just 'silly'?)

[Character Assassin]

36. What kind of jackass would ever say that?

Seeing as Tony Rice, the be-all, end-all guitar god of Bluegrass grew up in..... Los Angeles! And the absolute master of of bluegrass mandolin, David Grisman, is a Jew from Hackensack, New Jersey.

Nickel Creek, young though they be, are from that well-known hotbed of bluegrass..... San Diego.

Clarence White was from Maine.

Jerry Douglas if from Ohio. Columbus, no less.

Oi! The nerve of some people.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. the kind of jackass who

the kind of jackass who is also arguing that none of those people play bluegrass. In short, a close-minded jackass. lol

[Karenina]

140. Check my edits

If you are a musician passionate about MUSIC and someone tells you only XXX people can play the music you LOVE, have studied and made your own you probably won't shrug it off.

INDEED NOT!!!

"you can't be a 'real' XXX musician if you are not from XXX. Now that's not racism... I don't know what you'd call it... 'geographism'? (or just 'silly'?)

IT'S JUST FUCKING DUMBSHIT!!!

[Rabrrrrrr]

41. But, try looking at it this way

Bluegrass, like rap and reggae and some other forms, isn't just a music of "style", but also of substance. Bluegrass is uniquely Appalachian. So, you might be able to play for the *form* of bluegrass (picking, grinning, strumming, yelling), and do it damn well, and you can sing the words, but if you didn't *grow up* in the community that invented bluegrass, and for which bluegrass means much more than just a style of music, you very well might not ever be REALLY playing bluegrass.

An outsider could very well end up playing bluegrass (or polka, or salsa, or reggae, or cowboy, or Hawaiian, or insert your style here) better than the natives, but they'll still never grok bluegrass (or whatever style), becuase thsoe styles will never have the intrinsic meaning they have to those who have grown up with it, and who live in the communities/social settings that music speaks about and comes from.

Music about the suffering of living in the hollers can only be understood, fully, by someone who has lived in and suffered in the hollers. THose of us who might have lived in holler-like squalor and lived under equally oppressive conditions might have a pretty darn good inkling of bluegrass, but we'll never grok it. Not that we can't enjoy it - or even play it - but we'll never *own* it.

But I certainly think it's great to listen to and enjoy the music of other cultures, and even to play it. But ultimately, I think if smoeone is going to play music, they should play the music that has meaning to them, so if the white suburban kid feels a real affinity for bluegrass, have at it! Though part of me will always wish that the white suburban kid, instead of appropriating another music that moves him, would come up with his uniquely own style. But at this point, we're getting into very fine difference of nuance, and so I end before I make this post far, far too long.

[Sophree]

111. People listen to the kind of music they like

And they play the kind of music they like.

What's great about art/music is that every single experience the artist has appears in their work.

We would not have Bluegrass without Irish Folk Music.

We would not have Jazz without Gospel, Blues, and African music.

We would not have Reggae or Ska without Early American Rock & Roll.

Why try to fit everyone into certain types of boxes? What's SO great about music (especially today) is that people are blending all different types of music, creating their own styles based on the music they like, the music that has inspired them.

I heard an amazing Ska band earlier this week. They blended Reggae, Ska, Punk (sorta like Sublime.) I believe the lead guitarist is a Caucasian Aussie.

I know quite a few amazing musicians of every color, creating ALL kinds of music.

Relax and enjoy. B-)

[geniph]

38. All generalizations like that are false

by their very nature - because they're assuming some great racial divide that does not, in genetic terms, even exist. The human race does not have separate races. We have minor regional variations.

[tuck]

50. no, here's why

the term "racism" implies a power dynamic that, in this country, white people exert over other races.

the statement in question is prejudiced, but not racist.

minorities don't have privlege, therefore cannot, by definition, be racist

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. definitions

I don't define racism that way.
These conversations definately are more difficult when there is no common ground about the meanings of the words being used.
That said I could rephrase my question and use the term 'prejudice' instead of 'racism' and it would still express the question I was asking.

(edit: clarity)

[tuck]

64. exactly ... definitions

i answered you question based on the definition of the word "racism"

how you define racism is one thing. how racism is defined is another.

if you are asking a question, that is one thing. i you are making a statment, that is another, and it doesn't get a question mark at the end.

if you meant "prejudice" say so. if not, then the answer to you question is: no it is not racist.

[Karenina]

57. YO TUCK!!!

WELCOME TO DU!!!! :toast:

Can't imagine why you chose this thread for your first post but I'm glad you did!!! Have you been lurking for awhile?

I'm thrilled and delighted you understand the power dynamic I've been trying to explain. It's not about assigning "guilt" it's about recognizing and addressing the assymetry.

[tuck]

65. thanks, dude

yeah, i'm pretty familiar with this site.

i'm trying to flex my being-a-good-ally muscles here... racism and its oft-misunderstood definition needs to be talked about a lot more....

[mitchum]

58. It's just notes and chords...

and life experience has little or nothing to do with it

[Character Assassin]

59. Ain't the the truth.

Funny how so many people try to superimpose all sorts of flotsam and jetsam all over that simple concept.

[Rabrrrrrr]

60. Then I must submit that you understand little about music

Meaning no offense, but the only music I know of, in the entire world of music, that is written solely as notes and chords would be classical music calling for boy sopranos, which voice composers called for so they could have a pure voice unadulterated (so to speak) by experience of pain and defeat.

One of my choral directors, under whom we did a number of pieces that called for boy sopronos but had to use adult women for the roles, always said, "You must sing this as though you have not experienced life. You cannot let your experiences shade or cloud this line."

And she's right.

otherwise, all music, every eethnicity, no matter if folk music or the most serious Schoenbergian atonal stuff, is NOT just chords and notes. life experience ALWAYS plays a role, because all music is human, it is political, and it is emotional.

[Character Assassin]

61. You are correct to the extent that one must a feel for it....

But that is not an exclusive characteristic of those who've 'lived it', as per your previous example of bluegrass practioners living in a holler.

I have met more amazing musicians with touch, skill and feel for all sorts of music that had absolutely nothing to do with their cultural background or upbringing that I just can't hold that particular theory as valid.

Again, that's to my experience, and your mileage may vary, but I can't think that I'm an island.

The truest test, IMO, would be to have accomplished musicians trying to get it right playing experimental jazz, ala Cecil Taylor or Sun Ra. It has a way of really seeing who 'get's' it and who doesn't.

[mitchum]

63. I understand enough about it, to be paid to perform it.

And perhaps my response was a bit of an oversimplification, but no more so than the notion that experience is all. This is not to say that I haven't trotted out the ol' experience=aesthetics/ability equation plenty of times for hype purposes (hey, I'm a hustler...and a hypocrite)

[Karenina]

80. AU CONTRAIRE, mein Schatz!

Life experience has EVERYTHING to do with it. I don't care who you is or what you look like, YOU CAN'T PLAY BLUES UNLESS YOU HAD 'EM. And when you've been there and done that it will communicate through your music no matter on what level.

[mitchum]

93. And all of this time, I thought my function was to elicit an emotional...

response in THE LISTENER (rather than engaging in sonic autobiography)

[Karenina]

98. My contention is

if you ain't BEEN THERE, no amount of technique or "intellectual" understanding or empathy can convey the EMOTION.

[Character Assassin]

100. Interesting. So then, what experience would one call on for...

Performing, for example, Reich's "Music for 18 Musicians" or Anthony Braxton's "Fred's Garden: 73º Kelvin/PN-445-WNK"?

[Rabrrrrrr]

119. I shuold think one would need the experience of having lived

At least with Reich's piece, to get beyond the mere technical brilliance necessary, and still find room for movement within. One has to go beyond the notes, and play the spaces, and feel the overarching movement of the music.

Though unlike the blues, which is music that comes out of a definite culture of misery and oppression, Reich's music is more theoretical and constructed, and not, specifically, of an emotional bent (certainly not to the extent of the romantics, or any kind of folk music). Though I will say that I find Music for 18 Musicians, as well as Tehillim and much other Reich stuff, overwhelmingly emotional to me and almost painfully beautiful. I can listen to him for hours on end and be filled with contentment and joy the whole time.

[Karenina]

150. Thanx for that response Rabrrrrr

Some reveal their "character" in their screen names and I, for one, was not willing to touch it in spite of personally knowing both the composers in question.

If we're talking about somebody like Grisman, the guy did not come up in a vacuum. His PROCESS of making the music his own was an immersion in a new language. Think Ralph Rinzler, Bill Monroe, or Red Allen and his connexion with these men. We are NOT talking someone who woke up one day and said "WOW, GEE, COOL... Lemme see if I can play dat, hey I can make mah own a CD too!" PUHLEESE!!!

As for the utterly ABSURD "question" posed I was thrilled at how deftly you addressed it.

When you get back to us, do please dig this out of the archives and PM me! :loveya:

[Character Assassin]

159. Yes, that's rather what I thought.

Some reveal their "character" in their screen names and I, for one, was not willing to touch it in spite of personally knowing both the composers in question.

I take it to mean that while knowing the composers, you are unable to conceive of what it would take to play their music.

[retread]

83. To be charitable, this question illustrates a piss poor understanding

of racism!!

[alaine]

85. to say the least...

if it came from the right, I'd call it the product of brainwashing.

coming from the left, it looks like "playing stupid"

[noiretextatique]

91. a general comment on the phenomena

of "playing stupid" and brainwashing...not about this post. parts of the not-so-subtle shift to portray white people as the main victims of racism...now. it's a part of the divide and conquer strategy that still works very well as a wedge issue, in that it unites people across the poltical spectrum. it captializes on the resentment some feel about what they believe are "special" privileges and rights granted to others, at their expense. the controversy over affirmative action is but one example.

recall clinton's sistah souljah stunt? i'm still amazed that people consider that a pivotal moment in his political history. seems a rather pathetic commentary, if you ask me, when republicans can openly embrace white supremacist groups. there is no comparable history of organized, legally sanctioned racial terrorism against white people as there is in the reverse. but i do believe THAT is the impression that has been birthed and nutured in popular consciousness, as it relates to crime, for example. the willie horton propoganda worked because he is an archetype...of the kind that led to the lynching of emmet till, among others. not that horton isn't a despicable criminal, but his symbolic capital was in his value as representative of deeply-rooted (an nurtured) stereotypical fears about black men, in general.

another thing: "why should i pay, feel guilty, so on..." this sentiment inevitably crops up in racial discussions. my stock answer these days is that guilt is self-serving is as self-serving and self-fulfilling as is hate. the focus, of course, is on feelings, vs. the source of those feelings. if i do something wrong, i may feel guilty. if my country does something wrong, i seek to correct the problem vs. feeling personally responsible for it. the thing i can control is my own consciousness.

my church does a lot of work on healing "race consciousness," and race means the human race. one of the exercising i did in a workshop required me to embrace ALL of my ancestors, and for me, that means the slave and the slaveowner...the asian, the african, and the european. in our predominantly african-american church, this exercise proved difficult for many people and it caused much controversy. i came to understand how holding on to age-old resentments was also self-serving, and that there is some perceived power in the rage, but that rage can also be destructive and limiting. if you are convinced that things are inevitably a certain way, you are likely to experience that in your life...this is a self-fullling prophesy that i have to consciously work to eliminate.

[Karenina]

89. Your point is what I've been railing about on this thread.

The SEMANTICS ARE IMPORTANT. But let's PLEASE be fair to the original poster. The point is, 10 Million black reggae fans could scream that "white folks can't" (which IMHO is simply ca-ca-doo-doo) BUT if 10 Million WHITE CLASSICAL FANS screamed, "DARKIES can't do "classical," which has an an effect on whether I, as an individual player, am able to find employment in my chosen field NO MATTER HOW COMPETENT I AM? I have been described as a "distraction" by people who also said they NEVER HEARD the piece so well played. Whiteface and a blond wig? Maybe I should demand in my contracts that I play behind a curtain...

[ForrestGump]

95. There's a phenomenon in animal social behavior called

'The Oddity Effect.' Think of a flock of birds or a school of fish - basically, if you stand out from the crowd, through the way you look or the way you behave, you're way more likely to be targeted by and possibly chomped on by a predator than if you blend in. It's like the children's "one of these things doesn't belong" game.

Substitute a racist for the predator and there's your distraction. And within that nasty term, 'racist,' I suppose I'd have to include those who are far less vehement about it but who still find themselves 'distracted' by a black face up there. In some ways, and certainly in some contexts, they're the worst kind of racist. If they just came to listen to the music it wouldn't matter, but they can't stop themselves from homing in on you.

To my mind, it takes a fairly generous ration of cojones to be that solo nonconformist - albeit sometimes an involuntary one - who will do what it takes to belong to or transcend the group no matter how 'odd' they appear to others. I wonder how many of your audience have needed or will in the future need a blood transfusion? If so, they could thank a 'darkie' who had the temerity to, against the odds, rise 'above his station.' And how distracted do you suppose the patients of the first open-heart surgeon, a black doctror, were when they saw him about to try to extend their lives?

Of course, the disproportionate attention that you were receiving could also be because you're so stunningly beautiful and radiant a being.... :-)

[Karenina]

110. Naaaa Duuuuu...

Check it out FG, You're the only one here really willing to seriously ENGAGE and hang in with this discussion. It's a FIRST for me on DU. Mostly when these issues come up, it's hit and run. But these issues strike at my heart and my very survival. To come across a stranger in cyberspace who is willing to "suspend disbelief," as Jimmy Webb would say, is so life-giving. All of us simply want to be understood. Your post tells me you have in some way understood my dilemma. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for making that effort to jump over the chasm between our two worlds.

[ForrestGump]

112. Thank YOU

for making me want to jump. I'm learning a lot. I've had and still have quite a few black friends (African-American and -unAmerican) but, even though some will talk about racism (usually with humorous contempt for the racist's stupidity) I haven't known anyone whose livelihood was truly and obviously imperiled by the fact of their skin color. I suppose that's some testimony to the way that things have changed in the United States, and in some other countries, even if the prejudices harbored by some individuals within those societies remain intact and unmollified.

I really am seriously enraged that you - that anybody - should be (or, really, even just feel) held back because of something as trivial as skin color. It's just so inane. It always was, but to think that it still goes on is just totally....I don't know. Insane. We should have grown out of that by now. Not that I've been kidding myself that racial (or other - weight and age leap to mind) discrimination in the workplace and elswhere was dead but, still....it just makes me angry. Sad, too. F***wits.

Sure, we all come from backgrounds that are different on superimposed multiple scales (family situation, town, state/province, region, country, continent, skin color, religion, etc), and perhaps we can both celebrate our cultural/ethnic diversity while trying to work together, but the bottom line is that we're all of the same species, all people, and that beneath the skin we're all basically the same within the context of our spiritual and mental individuality. Is battling over religion or politics even more senseless, when there's not any external indicator of 'difference'? Maybe not, because at least in those cases the two sides differ on an actively-held belief rather than in just a side-effect of ancestral exposure to sunlight.

Well, I'm just kinda incoherently rambling now (hey, what's new?), so please just know that I may not ever get the whole picture here - the one that you're seeing and living - but that you've got people out there who are hoping for the best for you, and visualizing your beating the odds there to become the full creative manifestation of the person that you already are. I think that a lot of people here wish that for you. You know you can do it, it's just a matter of transcending the f***ers who're in your way now.

Man, that's weird: I sound like a motivational author with Tourette's Syndrome. Well, I'm sincere, anyway, f*** it. :-)

[Karenina]

115. To survive spiritually

I MUST take responsibility. NO ONE can stand in my way. It is up to ME to keep moving. But FG, hell I'm "human" too and sometimes tire of the "strong black woman" role. After the tour last year I totally crashed. I eschewed "proving" anything to ANYONE. Fuckall- those demanding "proof" didn't have half my skills. Pile onto that a break with my circle of American expat friends of 7 years, who brought that peculiar form of U.S. racism with them, triggered by a visiting brother (15 years my junior) finding me "cute." And never mind me FREAKING OUT as the "elections" happened. :puke:

Yeah, you are sincere. And I'm here online spilling my gut to a guy in cyberspace who is willing to "go there" with me. :loveya:

The early birds are singing. There's one guy who does the most INCREDIBLE phrases. I think sleep is in order.

[ForrestGump]

116. The birds are singing and all is right

except that you stayed up all night! Hey, that even rhymes. Sleep's good, now and then.

Well, yeah, I'm willing to go wherever I can with you (figuratively speaking) because you're one of the good humans and I've never been a fan of injustice. I'd bet that the same's true of every other DU-er, otherwise they'd be Republicans. You and I and we, at the risk of sounding like a mangled John lennon lyric, are (mostly) strangers to each other in the physical-presence sense but I know that I've already felt pretty connected in various ways with some of my fellow travelers here, because one of the better things about this means of getting together is that the externals really are irrelevant. Even if one of us identifies ourselves as being of a particular skin color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, hair color, or whatever, we can still cut through barriers that might be tougher to get through with people in our everyday. And, damn, I'm almost positive that I was leading up to a point here....... Maybe not.

Oh, yeah - spill away, if it helps, because we're all here for each other. I always tended to be the "I Am a Rock" type, but some stuff that happened not so long ago pretty much shattered me, too, and I finally turned to my family with it, and with what was left of me. I have to say that it was something I definitely should've done earlier in the game. Strength of character can sometimes only take so much, even if you're loaded with it and determined to go for broke. Sometimes it's just right to lean on someone for a little while, even if it's just for a pause when you're tired of it all or need to catch your breath (or forget about something for a while), and even if all they can send your way are electrons entrained in some non-random sequence (well, semi-random, in my case) and good thoughts. Maybe that's my answer to the thread about what's best about the DU Lounge.....

Anyway, even without your old circle of expats, you're far from alone - by the way, unwelcome or destructive as it may have been, it's still pretty cool that someone 15 years younger than you thought you were 'cute.' :-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

120. btw,

"10 Million black reggae fans could scream that "

btw, everytime I've heard someone say 'white people can't play reggae' it was a white person saying it. It's not a symptom of blacks being racist against whites; it's a symptom of whites being racist against blacks.

(edit: added quote for clarity)

additional edit: Perhaps I didn't say this right; what I'm trying to point out is that the comment shows an underlying racist attitude in the people uttering it. And I certainly am not trying to raise this to the level of the pervasive, institutionalized racism that I have not experienced as a white person. But I think if we want to eliminate that type of racism, it is just as important to fight the underlying attitudes that cause it as the institutionalized expressions of those attitudes.

[Karenina]

126. Actually, Feanorcurufinwe

I kinda suspected that and ya know what? THEY'RE JUST JEALOUS! Nya, Nya!!! ;-)

"...the comment shows an underlying racist attitude in the people uttering it." Absolutely. I'd file it under "stealth racism." How would you explain what they're on about? I'm curious.

Let me play around with this some more. Say 10,000 white reggae fans scream in unison that white folks can't play reggae. I would imagine the effect again to be close to nil, because if the musicians got it down, any REAL fan would listen to what their ears tell them rather than what a bunch of putzes were screeching. And the opinions of their colleagues across the board would not be affected. Whaddya think?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

127. the effect

You are right about the overt, obvious, direct effect. Anybody with ears for music will use them.

But what about the insidous effect... for instance on the children of those 10000 fans? They are learning racist attitudes that are much more difficult to challenge than the more overt forms of racism. But I think the more obvious forms of racism will be around as long as the underlying attitudes are.

[Karenina]

152. I wonder about this too

I was up by the North Sea last weekend and in the course of moving my friends into their new home, some neighbor kids came by. Paul is 4 and upon first seeing me gave me the most obnoxious sneering look. During the course of the day I engaged him about the Englisch text on his t-shirt (Noah's Ark complete with pix), yelled at him to get out of the way, picked him up to MOVE him out of the way, gave him something he could carry and directed him where to put it... If he heard my voice he responded IMMEDIATELY, I do wonder what effect his exposure to me had.

[Redleg]

84. It is a stereotype and can be construed as racist.

EOM

[NightTrain]

87. I don't think it's racist, but....

...it certainly is untrue!

Here in Hartford, Connecticut, we have a reggae band called the Soul merchants, whose five-man line up features three white guys, a Puerto Rican, and a Vietnamese. And they play goddamned good reggae, baby!!!

[Karenina]

96. OF COURSE THEY DO!!!

They've made the MUSIC their own and rejoice in sharing it!!! :bounce:

[Capn Sunshine]

108. If you put anything in a context of race only

It will be taken as racist by someone.
Much better to say "Nebraskans can't play reggae music"


or is that code:evilgrin:

[Syrinx]

117. Two things exist in this universe

Racism and sexism. That's all there is.

Or so I'm told.

[ForrestGump]

122. And bagism

Don't forget bagism.....

[Karenina]

138. YOU are a PIP, FG!!!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[ForrestGump]

141. Now, come on, that's just not NICE!

Calling me a Pain In the Posterior (P.I.P.). :-(

Gonna go sulk now......

[Karenina]

145. THAT'S NOT WHAT IT MEANS!!!!

At least not to me!!!

DUMP the BRIT meaning! Try, PERSON IS PINKO!!! Look it up in Merriam-Webster's!

A person who holds ADVANCED liberal or moderately radical political or economic views!!! HA-HA!!! :loveya:

[ForrestGump]

146. Oh......duh......

That's me. Yep. Advanced views.....not just basic or even middling, but advanced views. Uh-huh.

It's obvious from my yak posts, alone.....

<--- look at that pinko....well, purple-o....or maybe mauve-o

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

154. I thought it meant you could back up Gladys Knight any day

:D

[ForrestGump]

158. NOW I feel better!

:D

Always wanted to do the Pip thing - you know, the cool bits during "Midnight Train To Georgia" and the little dance steps. I'd have made a good Pip.



Pip-pip, wot?