A modest proposal to restore civility within DU...

[Redstone]

Allow, indeed encourage argument, but ban haranguing.

What's the difference? Here's an example, using the old tried-and-true Mac vs. Windows debate:
------------------------------------------------------
First, here's an argument:

Mac user: "You're an idiot for using Windows. The interface is crummy, and you can't turn the computer on without getting a virus or spyware within five minutes."

Windows user: "Well, you're an idiot for using a Mac. The goddamn computers cost a fortune, and there's not enough software for them."

Mac user: "Oh, balls. There's Mac software to do whatever I need to do. Maybe the latest version of DOOM 17: The Crack-Addicted Tax Accountants From Neptune is Windows-only, but I can live without that."

Windows user: "Well, wise guy, at least I know when to left-click and when to right-click on the mouse."

Mac user: "Right-click? We don't need no esteenking right-clicks. One button is all any computer with any brains should need."

Now, here are dual harangues:

Mac user: "You know, it's YOUR fault that there are so many Windows viruses and spyware. If you didn't have that follow-the-herd mentality, you wouldn't have just "gone along with what everyone else is using," and made Windows so popular that it attracts the hackers and virus writers. Besides, you're helping create the electronic version of a monoculture, and you know what ecological disasters they can be. If the entire computing infrastructure of the country comes crashing down because of a Windows virus, don't come crying to me, because you'll share the responsibility for making it possible."

Windows user: "Well, you Mac snots think you're so much better than us. You think because your computer is easier to use than mine, it makes YOU a superior person. Well, let me tell you, buddy, it's that kind of "thinking different" that's causing all the problems in our society today. I bet you drive a Volvo, don't you? Ha! I knew it! You feel like you're SAFER than us poor drones don't you? We regular working people don't DESERVE the extra twelve airbags you have, do we?"
-----------------------------------------------

See what I mean? Arguments can be fun, if repetitive. Harangues are just plain annoying.

What do you think? DU rule change in order?

Redstone

[mike_c]

1. I think your post qualifies as a harangue under your definition....

:spank:

[Redstone]

16. No, it doesn't. It's an argument.

I'm not saying that people who harangue are inferior (which would be haranguing)--I'm just saying they're annoying. Which is an argument.


Redstone

[SOteric]

2. I'm not sure where the part about

calling one another idiots is supposed to "restore civility."

[Kire]

3. I don't get it either.

:popcorn:

[name not needed]

6. Of course you wouldn't.

Moron. :popcorn:

[WinterStorm]

11. "A room with a view"

:rofl:

[DS1]

37. Boy, when I get home I'm gonna slap yo momma!

:nuke:

[Redstone]

13. Sorry, it may be too much of a guy thing...

guys can call each other idiots, have a drink or two, and forget about whatever they were arguing about.

Redstone

[datasuspect]

4. i think trying to force/coerce/make people comply

with any one person's idea of communication is pretty tyrannical and antithetical to free expression.

where did i stumble into? my aunt gladys's sewing circle?

[Redstone]

10. That's a perfect example of a harangue...

Redstone

[datasuspect]

12. oh

sorry, i don't know you well enough to discern this.

lately i'm not surprised to see stuff like that.

[datasuspect]

18. i can dig it

where did you get your training in philosophy/logic?

you seem to expound rather esoterically (and erroneously) on this topic.

[Redstone]

23. All right, now, that's a bit better...

You're telling me that you think my premise is wrong. I'd be only too happy to hear WHY you think it is.

That's an argument. And if you can argue convincingly, I guarantee that I'll admit to having been mistaken. (I know that's breaking the Unwritten Guy Code, but I really do admit it when I make a mistake or am convinced to change my opinion. If that makes me a wimp, so be it,)

But questioning my credentials, and using phrases like "tyrannical and antithetical to free expression" is haranguing; furthermore it's ascribing motives that you don't know actually exist.

Your turn.

Redstone

[datasuspect]

20. and i thought you were "joking"

?

don't switch gears like that - it's rather dishonest.

even if you don't know how to pronounce a word, say it loudly: stick to your guns, it's the only way you can become aware of what you don't know and hopefully be disabused of your error.

[Redstone]

24. That's what I meant about ascribing motives

that may not exist; I had a feeling I was going to hear that from you.

I edited the post because I thought the second iteration would work better; I didn't know you had already replied to the original subject line.

You're ascribing dishonesty, which is not the case; further, I simply do not understand the "don't know how to pronounce a word" comment. I'd ask for explanation, but it's time to hit the rack.

We can take this up again tomorrow, if you'd like.

Redstone

[WinterStorm]

26. "Your intelligence is showing"

You just presented a perfect example of a harangue that deals with thread stalking.

[Redstone]

27. Thank you too much.

I see you understand the concept of a "threadstalker." Especially now that you've seen one in action.

This wasn't the first time. And as you become more visible with more posts, you'll probably acquire a few of your own.

Just comes with the territory. Thanks for the positive replies.

Redstone

[WinterStorm]

29. "Your welcome"

I enjoy reading your messages, some of us lurk instead of posting.

[Jamastiene]

5. I'll try, but if I get ganged up on, I have no choice but to defend. n/t

[Dave Reynolds]

8. I think I hear something....

[Jamastiene]

33. OKay, I'll bite

What do you mean, exactly?

[Dave Reynolds]

38. A few people may have a tendency to pile on

like a ton of bricks anyone who may dissent, that's all.

Hence the brick-pile smiley.

[Jamastiene]

39. Oh, I get it now. That's true. n/t

[Texasgal]

7. HUH???

:popcorn:

[Jamastiene]

14. Love that picture.

The caption says it all. Good one.

[Texasgal]

17. Thanks!

I loved it too, at first I was afraid that I would offend, but most people seem to dig it!

Thanks!

[Jamastiene]

21. I wouldn't think it would offend MOST people around here.

It's saying that the Pope is smart enough to see that our hideous leader is not the sharpest tool in the shed or even the second sharpest. I usually have a super hot button when it comes to religion, but I liked that one.

[JohnKleeb]

31. doesn't offend me at all, JPII is probably thinking

holy crap this guy is representing the United States.

[WinterStorm]

9. Excellent analogy

Mac user: "Oh, balls. There's Mac software to do whatever I need to do. Maybe the latest version of DOOM 17: The Crack-Addicted Tax Accountants From Neptune is Windows-only, but I can live without that."

My vote is yes.

[Redstone]

15. Just to clarify:

The premise, folks, is that an argument is an exchange of ideas and opinions, crudely expressed or logically invalid though they may be.

A harangue is a lecture based upon the lecturers's self-perception of the moral superiority of his (or her) position, and insistence that not agreeing with this position is de facto proof of the moral inferiority of the lecturee.

Maybe I didn't state the difference well in the initial post.

Redstone

[datasuspect]

19. you didn't state it that well in this post either

an argument (strictly speaking) is a solely logical proposition with premises and a conclusion.

as far as harangue goes, well you seem to have this part down . . .

[Redstone]

25. Search the archives

for a thread containing the term "threadstalker."

I'm done with this one.

Redstone

[WinterStorm]

22. "Forgive me"

Your suggestion should be voted on and put into use.

[Kire]

28. Is a harangue something like a spoiler?

I hate spoilers.

[REP]

30. You Can Right Click With a Mac

I'm doing it RIGHT NOW! And I've only got a 1.25GHz machine!

[elshiva]

32. Another way to be civil is not to insult

another DUer. I'm all for insulting the repukes. But I draw a line at cussing DUers. If a DUer is wrong in her argument, attack the argument, not the poster, please. That has started so many wars!

[Behind the Aegis]

34. Good point!

There is a difference between attacking the message, as opposed to the messenger. However, to be honest, I feel some people here don't know the difference. When the 'message' is attacked, they take it personally and go on a full-scale warpath. I hope the civility plays both ways.

[elshiva]

35. Thanks! I think people do take the non-personal, personal.

[autorank]

36. Sumner, is that you? Oh my God. Don't tell anyone we met here.

The distinction is well taken. However, both the argument and harangue by the Windows user are correct.

[Ladyhawk]

40. I would lose the "you're an idiot" part of the argument.

It's too easy for personal opinions to become personal attacks. I don't like to be attacked personally for an opinion I hold, especially when I would like to think I have an open mind and could be persuaded with the right argument. I'm much less likely to listen to an argument that includes an ad hominem statement like "You're an idiot."

Otherwise, I think you're onto something. The blame game is tiresome and accomplishes nothing.

GD has been in flames for weeks. Flames don't build anything; they only destroy. And yes, I do realize I've piled on the napalm a bit myself on occasion and I'm quite sure any silly posturing I've done in the past didn't convince anyone I was right.

Someone said FR was imploding. Is DU imploding, too? We need some flame retardant or something. There's a lot of dead, dry wood in GD and it is prone to firestorms and rapid burn-overs.

Personally, I don't care for that kind of atmosphere. I wish there was a way to preserve the right to speak one's mind without the whole thing just...erupting...every five minutes.

[Radical Activist]

41. hahahaha

yeah right. :rofl:

[libodem]

42. Can't we all just get along?

but if one more of you mocks my tin foil hat...that's it!