Is it stealing...

[CTLawGuy]

Poll question: Is it stealing...

if someone gives you something willingly, even if it doesn't seem to be in their best interest to do so?

EX 1. Your buddy who works as a bartender gives you a free drink at his bar.

EX 2. Your friend lets you borrow his CD for an indeterminate amount of time and forgets to ask for it back.

EX 3. A waitress misinterprets your order for chili fries and brings you chicken tenders. She lets you keep the chicken tenders without charge and brings you your chili fries.

TO BE CLEAR: I am NOT asking whether keeping any of these items in these examples is MORALLY RIGHT,

I AM asking whether keeping those items is STEALING.

[Redstone]

1. No, because

except for #2, the items were GIVEN to you.

For #2, it's only stealing if you deliberately decide not to give it back.

Redstone

[CTLawGuy]

3. Devil's Advocate

if he doesn't ask for it back, then how do you know he didn't intend to let you keep borrowing it? Isn't he still allowing you to keep it?

[Speck Tater]

2. A gift was given, except in case #2

where it wsa not the intention of the friend to GIVE you the CD, but only an oversight. Ethically, you should return the disk since it was not intended to be a gift.

[CTLawGuy]

4. Devil's Advocate #2

So, if one were to keep the CD, assuming of course the friend NEVER asked for it back, that person would be guilty of a crime?

[Misunderestimator]

5. Funny... because one person considers it stealing... because the ethics

of it make it stealing for that one person, you create a poll about it. How funny. I would consider

EX 2. to be ethically reprehensible if you are aware that you still have the CD and that you intend to keep it knowing that it is not yours...

If I did this, I would reconcile it in my head as "stealing" because I know that it is someone else's property and it was not "given" to me to keep.

[CTLawGuy]

8. good to see you again :)

but remember your friend didn't tell you when to give it back.

Doesn't that mean that he didn't really care when you gave it back?

If he really wanted it back, wouldn't he ask for it back?

(In fact, my friend has a couple of my CDs. I let him borrow them a year ago. I didn't give him a preordained time to give them back. If I wanted them back I'd have to rememeber to ask him.

I certainly wouldn't have him arrested for stealing because he didn't give the CD's back without me asking for them.)

[tjwmason]

6. No, theft is a positive action

If something is given to you then it can never be considered stealing.

In the second case, as long as you consider it still to be the property of your friend, and would give it back when asked, then it is not stealing.

[CTLawGuy]

9. well technically

Robbery is "deprivation of property through force or threat of force, or use of fear."

If you shove a gun in someone's face and they gave you their wallet, you can't say they willingly did it.

But most of the time you are right.

[skygazer]

13. That's not an accurate description of robbery

You can rob someone without use of force or fear taking something of theirs without their knowledge.

[petronius]

14. But the poll refers to "stealing", not robbery

I think robbery is taking something from a person's presence by force, and theft is taking something when the owner is not present. Both are stealing...

Both #1 and #2 are easy to rationalize, but I still think they are stealing. In #2, your friend trusted you with his property, and despite the fact that he forgot where the property was you still know it belongs to him. It's sort of like taking the cash out of a lost wallet: it's gone as far as the owner knows, but you (the finder) know who it belongs to and so you have an obligation not to keep it.

I think another situation that could be added to the poll would be software/music theft. I tend to use the rationalization that if I wouldn't buy something then it's OK to copy it, since nobody really loses. Still, deep down I know that it's really theft...

[tjwmason]

15. Of course if you use a gun a person is not using their will

Therefore due to the restriction on their will (caused by the robber), they cannot be said to have given the robber their wallet.

There is a positive action on the part of the robber in demanding (with strongly implied threat of force) to have the wallet.

[stellanoir]

7. Yes for #2

When you borrow something, you become the steward of it and it then becomes your responsibility to return it, not the owner's, who loaned it in good faith, responsibility to ask for it back.

Anyone who has worked in restaurants knows the extreme amount of waste involved. That's why the over charge for pretty much everything.

People who screw up orders regularly ultimately probably shouldn't be employed in food service in the first place.

Managers who are paying attention usually recognize when bartenders are going overboard with free drinks. If they're moderate in their dispensation, it's ultimately good for future business. I've more often been offered a free drink by owners than bartenders. So I think they recognize this.

[CTLawGuy]

11. if the owner loaned it

and never told you when to give it back, you are supposed to guess when he wants it back?

And if you guess wrong, you're a thief?

[stellanoir]

17. Nah. . .

you're not a thief. . .you're just as spaced out as the owner and it probably doesn't matter that much at all.

[fluffernutter]

18. if you KNOW it is your friend's and not yours

there is no guessing. give the damn thing back already! if you don't, you are actively keeping something that is not yours.

[Freebird12004]

10. Yo Dude... hand over the CD !

#1 & #3 are accepted business practices.

[skygazer]

12. Numbers one and three would not be stealing

But when you borrow something, it is implicit in the agreement that you recognize that the item is not your own. It is not the responsibility of the lender to ask for it back but of the borrower to return it. If the term of the loan is unspecified, it is still the borrowers responsibility to return it at some point so if it is never returned, that is not ethical. Perhaps calling it theft would be overstating since technically, the term of the loan could still be in force until the death of either of the parties but it's not nice.

I also don't consider it theft per se when one keeps the change that one has been overpaid but I do consider it dishonest and unethical when they've noticed the error but kept it anyway. Particularly when you consider that the money will likely come out of the clerk's pocket rather than that of the company and the clerk is probably making shitty wages to begin with.

[mcscajun]

16. Issues

If the bartender owns the bar, he can give his buddy all the free drinks he wants. If the owner has a 'buyback' policy and the bartender gives you a 'buyback', that's okay. If the bartender is just giving away the bar, then he's stealing and you're receiving stolen liquor.

You have to give back the CD without being asked for it. Keeping it is wrong, and yes, it's stealing.

If the waitress is working within a restaurant policy, it's not stealing. If you're getting food you didn't pay for, you eat it, and don't insist on paying for it, that's stealing.