Help me with my Star Wars continuity questions, you're my only hope.

[Wat_Tyler]

Given that the term 'Darth' appears to be a Sith title, like Lord, and that Lucas had much of the backstory worked out prior to A New Hope (which is why it's episode four), why, during their duel on the Death Star, does Obi-Wan refer to Vader, conversationally, as Darth - as if it is his given first name? Is this just a continuity glitch?

Secondly, given that there must always be two Sith, master and apprentice, what happens when Darth / Anakin kills Palpatine - is this the act that restores balance to the force, thus ending the line of Sith, or is another Sith generated?

Yeah. I realize how nerdy this makes me.
But it's Star Wars.

[Beware the Beast Man]

1. question 1: continuity glitch, more than likely

question 2: With Vaders turn to the good side and the vanquishment of the Emperor, that pretty much extinguishes the Sith. Unless you read the "Expanded Universe" stuff. :freak:

[Wat_Tyler]

2. Ah. Thought so.

Cheers.

[mermaid]

3. Lemme Take A Stab At This

OK...I'm gonna come at is in strictly chronological order. not in the order in which the movies were presented.

In "The Phantom Menace" We have Palpatine (the Senator from Naboo) and Darth Maul. Young Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, after Darth Maul kills Quagon-Jen.
There is NO Darth anyone in the second movie at all.
The third is set to come out in May, and, presumably, this is where young Anakin is seduced over to the Dark Side and becomes Darth Vader.

In "A New Hope" Darth Vader then kills Obi-Wan...remember as he said, "When last we saw each other you were the master, and I was the apprentice, now I am the master." And Obi-Wan's response is, "Only a master of evil, Darth."

So, yes...Obi-Wan is just calling him "Darth." Referring to only the Sith title of Darth as in "Lord" then, what Obi-Wan said, could be roughly translated as "Only a master of evil, my Lord."

It was customary in feudalistic societies to refer to anyone with a title of nobility as "my Lord" even if you were an enemy. You were merely acknowledging the title...not the value you personally held on that title, or it's merits in being vested in that person.

Now, jumpin ahead to the sixth and final movie, "Return of the Jedi" in the end, Darth Vader kills Palpatine. And then he, himself dies shortly thereafter. Remember Luke was burning his father's body on a pyre at the very end...and then you see the ghosts of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin, all together, smiling at Luke, as he got back to the encampment where the others were celebrating the destruction of the Death Star.

So, it would seem to me that the line of the Sith would have ended right there...as the master and the apprentice both died in quick succession of one another. And thus, it always made me wonder, what basis for a 7,8, and 9th movie would there even be? I mean, what else is left to do, right? The Evil empire is defeated, the Emperor and Darth Vader are both dead...so it does not surprise me that there will be no movie coming out after this next, and we are told, final Star Wars movie comes out.

What this fails to explain, however, is...who was the apprentice in the second movie? There isn't one...Darth Maul is already dead, and Darth Vader is yet to be.

I'm not sure if this helps you a lot, but this is how I understand it.

I think that Obi-Wan referring to Vader as merely "Darth" is the equivalent of him calling Vader "my Lord."

[Ready4Change]

4. Nice cover for "Darth"

I'm not convinced Lucas had all this thought out in advance, but as a pen and paper role playing game master, I can just as well appreciate a good CYA job. Kudos!

I've long held, and still do, that Episode 3s fall of Anakin should mimic much of what we've seen happen with Luke in Episodes 4-6. It should become clear that the Sith live on, having corrupted Luke.

At least, that's what I'd do, were I making the decisions on these things. :P

[Silverhair]

6. It has to be the end. The Force is then united.

Remember the prophecy in The Phantom Menace that Anakin is the one who can not be defeated and will one day unite the Force? He was never defeated, and by going to the dark side and then coming back he unites the force.

[tigereye]

7. I thought that in Episode 2

Count Dooku was Darth Tyranus, implying that he was the second Sith.
Or am I missing something?

I have a bit of SW geekdom in me as well. ;)

. Christopher Lee is Count Dooku/Darth Tyranus ( taken from the movie website)

[Wat_Tyler]

8. This is how it works.

Darth Sidious (Palpatine) was Darth Plagueis' apprentice. Darth Sidious kills Darth Plagueis. Now, there must always be two Sith, so he gets an apprentice. In Episode One, that person is Darth Maul. When Obi-Wan kills Darth Maul, Count Dooku (almost wrote Count Dookus) becomes Darth Tyrannus (one of his first actions being his recruiting of Jango Fett as the model for the Clone Army - this meeting happened on one of the moons of Bogden) - Count Dooku dies in Episode Three (I won't give away what happens), so Darth Vader / Anakin Skywalker becomes the new second-Sith.

[tigereye]

20. well thanks for the overview, Wat.

So I was sort of right.

[anti_shrub]

5. Lucas really didn't have much of the backstory worked out

At least not prior to A New Hope.

Remember, Star Wars didn't originally have the "Episode IV" heading until after the Empire Strikes Back. When that film became a hit, he realized he had something and fully fleshed out the plotlines.

I'm sure Lucas had some of the basic plot sketched out, but its obvious even in ESB the Luke/Leia thing wasn't fully thought out yet.

[Wat_Tyler]

9. That I did not know.

I know he changed the opening scroll a couple of times - so in the original pressing of Star Wars, do the terms 'Episode Four' and 'A New Hope' appear at all?

[Arkana]

10. The original crawl does not feature "Episode IV: A New Hope"

since, obviously, the sequels didn't exist.

[Wat_Tyler]

13. But it was there in the 1980's - long before the sequels.

I can buy that it was added after Empire, but I do remember watching it on my betamax copy.

[tigereye]

21. my husband said that Lucas

obsessively figured most of the SW backstory out in cartoons/ story boards that he did long before he made the films, though.

[Borgnine]

12. Right.

He wasn't even sure if he was going to make Vader Luke's father until The Empire Strikes Back, and even then, he wasn't sure if he was lying until Return of the Jedi was in production.

[Wat_Tyler]

14. Vader is Dutch for father.

Bit of a giveaway there.

[Rabrrrrrr]

15. No, Lucas wanted the movie to say "Episode IV" but the studio refused

thinking that viewers would be confused. But Lucas actually did, at that time, know that he was making episode IV.

Then, once the movie became popular, he was able to go back and redo the opening credits to say "Episode IV: A New Hope".

Now, as to how much of the back story was actually fully worked out, I can't say, though I'd imagine you are right - I'm sure it was more nebulous than complete. Even in the specials with the new Star Wars trilogy DVD set, and the commentaries, Lucas certainly seems to talk a lot about having to figure out things later in the backstory, in terms of specifics, though the general outline was always there.

[nytemare]

11. I seem to remember that Obi Won and the good guys

Seemed to refer to Darth Vader as just that, and that members of the Empire referred to him as Lord Vader.

I could be mistaken, but to me it just seemed to be the name was according to whose side you were on.

:shrug:

[Downtown Hound]

16. Obi Wan calling Vader "Darth" could be an insult

as if to say to him that he is nothing more than a Sith now and not a Jedi. However, if you're looking for continuity glitches, here's some I've worked out for you.

In Episode 4, R2 and 3P0 stumble upon the Skywalker's moisture farm on Tatooine and have never seen it before. Or at least 3P0 hasn't. R2 may be cunning enough to keep it a secret. But 3P0 clearly has no knowledge of it. Yet in Episode 2 we learn that he has in fact lived on it for years, serving Uncle Owen as a young man. Is 3P0's memory erased at some point? Did Owen simply not recognize him later in life because his outer armor had changed from black to gold? Or was he pretending not to recognize him? If none of these questions are answered in Episode 3, then there are some huge continuity problems.

Anyway, those are definite ones that I can see developing. Of course Lucas may be aware of them and deal with them in Episode 3, but then again, he seems to be quite asleep at the wheel lately and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he didn't.

[Rabrrrrrr]

17. I think the assumption is that R2D2 never had his memory erased

but that C3PO has.

But that's just my own theory, not based on anything I ever read or saw or heard from anyone official.

But it does seem to be the only way to solve the problem.

And - that R2D2 would keep quiet about such things, since he keeps quiet about so many other things.

[Silverhair]

18. Partial answer.

In ROTJ we see another C3PO being dismembered and tortured. So we know that he is a standard model. Owen would not know he was the same unless he checked some sort of ID. He would just see a standard model C3PO.

[Orsino]

19. Yeah, like calling someone "President" soon will be...

I take Obi-Wan's use of "Darth" as a title (or an insult, as suggested) rather than as a first-naming.