I'm giving up. Where is the best place to move outside the U.S.?

[hollywood926]

Jeb Bush is positioning himself for a White House run, which he will undoubtedly win with all the idiot hillbilly votes. I can't see the next 12 years without a member of the Bush Crime Family in charge of my beloved country. I'll be 50 years old.

I am seriously thinking of leaving. Is Canada my only option? It's so goddamned cold there.

Are there any other countries that welcome Americans? Sadly, it seems most English-speaking nations - like Australia, England, New Zealand, etc. don't really want us there.

I could stay and fight...but I don't know how we can fight such widespread ignorance when the right wing media is in charge.

:cry:

[RagingInMiami]

1. No matter what country you chose

There will be no doubt that they will share your hatred towards the Bush regime.

[bluestateguy]

2. Whatever you do, please do us all a favor

Please stay registerd to vote in the US and keep voting.

After all, the Right is working to breed as many new Republicans as they can, so we need your vote and every ex-pat to help out those of us who choose to stay.

[northzax]

7. uh, no. If you can't be bothered to live here

or at least to consider this your home, even if you are temporarily abroad, you shouldn't vote. if yo no longer consider yourself an American, then don't bother to vote.

[radwriter0555]

30. I'm leaving because I fear for my life, and for the life of my child. I

tried to warn everyone I knew, online and in person for the past 5 years.

It took an entire PLANET united to bring down hitler's regime and I believe it will take equal or greater measures to bring down the bush regime.

[northzax]

31. ok, but you still forfeit your rights of citizenship

you can leave for whatever reason you want, I don't wish to criticise that, but if you don't want to live here, in our society, then you should not continue to vote on how this society operates. If what you want to do is go and help the 'entire planet united' (which is a gross simplification, by the way, it took three nations, really, to take down Hitler, the US, UK, and USSR, sure, other states participated in more minor roles, but they were basically due to the connection to the British Empire) then you can not expect to be welcomed back afterwards. The rest of the world won't change our problems, we need to. There is nothing you can do about it from London, Paris, Cape Town, Riyadh, Nairobi, Santiago, Beijing, Tokyo, Canberra, Wellington or Ottawa. Bush is our problem to fix.

If you wish to leave, that is, of course, your decision. If you can find another nation to accept you, and allow you to renounce your US citizenship and accept thiers (good luck with that) and it is a place you would rather live, then you should do so, it's part of the beauty of this country is that you have the freedom to attempt to do so. Not everyone is so lucky. But don't leave us to do the heavy lifting and then expect to be welcomed back.

Frankly, I encourage you to stay and use whatever talents and passion you have to make the lives of others around you better. I hope you will. but if you insist on leaving, may I first suggest you read up on Hitler? I think you'll find that life in 1930's germany was much worse than in 2000's America. If you feel that bush is a threat to your life, or that of your chiuld, of course you must leave. I understand that. I just don't believe it. Anyone he is a threat to is jsut as vulnerable outside the US as inside, and without the power to help prevent it. Don't leave that as your legacy to your child, I implore you.

[Orsino]

52. Nothing is forfeited...

...because, as we're learning to our dismay, they aren't "rights." America's new fascists are quickly signing away as many of these "rights" as they can get their hands on.

The fascists *are* a threat to our lives and to the lives of our children. Their foreign policies are driving intense hatred that *will* produce more terrorist attacks. Their domestic policies are driving the needy into their Imperial armies, to kill and die in our name.

Their is good work to be done here, despite their best efforts to make that impossible. There is also good work to be done elsewhere.

I'd ask that everyone try to do good work, wherever it can be of the most benefit to your loved ones or to the world.

[amazona]

37. yes, she should vote, how silly to discourage her

I have expats in my family living elsewhere for over a decade and they were Kerry voters. Sheesh. Don't throw away good votes. We need people on the outside to help us if/when this country really starts rounding people up and we need a new underground railroad or what-have-you to get "radicals" to safety.

[tridim]

3. Stay and fight

We need your help. I'm of the position that my country is under domestic attack, and the founding documents require us to fight them.

[frictionlessO]

4. there there...

:hug:
rethugs hate us for our freedoms.
my wife and I are planning on selling our company by 06 and if the fraud continues we're taking our in the money asses outa here. BTW Canada isnt really that bad... I love it there! Though Id jump for NZ or Australia (Im a didj maker and would just love to get my ass schooled by the natives!).....

But yeah I feel for you.

[Boswells_Johnson]

Come to Canada!

It can get cold in the winter, but the summers are beautiful, and not sweltering.

If you're on the DU, you most likely wouldn't like Alberta; It's our Red State.

[northzax]

5. eh, I don't know

if you are giving up on the American Experiment, why don't you just go back, with your tail between your legs to whatever country your ancestors came from and beg to be readmitted? Frankly, if you are that much of a quitter, we don't really need you here anyway. Good riddance. Way to sacrifice everything your ancestors worked for (since, if you are like most US Citizens, at some point, someone got on a boat or a plane ora truck with almost nothing and came over to take a chance on something better for their families.) But I guess you don't have that much courage. it's ok, all things get weaker over time.

[frictionlessO]

9. oh yeah just stay here and whenever you get the urge to give up

someone who is ostensibly on your side will just hurl vicious insults at you to show their compassion for you and your fears.

Your reply is useless and hurtful and denigrating and a personal attack.

[jellybelly]

11. it's not meant to be hurtful attack

everyone is needed to overthrow the republican reign...

[northzax]

16. oh, sorry, I will rephrase it

I am sure that any one og the 250 some odd other countries in the world would love to have an immigrant who is unwilling to put in the hard work to improve his or her own society. I'm sure if you ask real nice like, they will welcome, with open arms, someone fleeing the massive oppression that is the United States.

I am sure that your grandmother/great grandfather, whoever it was who left everything behind to come to America would understand that it was just too damn hard to live here now. Certainly, the millions of people in the world begging to come to the US (and yes, there are millions who would jump at the chance) would be happy to trade places with you. You need only ask.

Make no mistake, the wingnuts are right that there is a culture war in this country now, and those who would rather flee and cower, leaving the battle to others in the face of overwhelming odds are not even 'ostensibly' on my side. Sorry if that's harsh to you, and makes you feel uncomfortable, but it's the truth. You are willing to cede the country to the wingnuts, I'm not. If you aren't willing to actually fight, then you're in the way, and we'd all be better off having you somewhere else.

If you want reasons to stay, I can provide them, but the post was asking for places to move to, for angles of retreat; not for reasons to hope. If you want your hand held, then go to girl scout camp and sing kumbaya. If you want hope, ask for it. If you threaten to quit and run, I will tell you exactly what I think of people who quit the single most important contest for the future of the world. Yes, the future of the world. your children's future, and their children's. Those have always been the stakes. Understand that. Threatening to run and hide at the first sign of trouble, even entertaining the idea, makes every victory harder to accomplish.

on edit: of course the 'you' in this message is directed towards anyone sympatico with the original post, not to the one I replied to.

[frictionlessO]

21. Well then no point in continuing this discussion

You've already shown you have nothing but hate for anyone who disagrees with you on this subject.

When I see people who are hurting from whats going on in and because of this country and want to move, my instinct is to reach out to them with kindness, yours is to berate them with insults.

Also you have no idea what myself or the OP have done in regards to this fight or for how long. Your assumptions are poorly based and your arguments skewed.

I will not feed your anger anymore.

good bye:hi:

[hollywood926]

22. thanks, frictionless....i will defend myself from here on out. n/t

[northzax]

23. well that works

I accept anyone's decisionto leave at any time, as long as they unerstand what they are giving up.

and I guess it's more disgust that anyone would quit, rather than hate. I can't be bothered to waste hate on anyone who can't be bothered to fight.

You can remain begging people to stay, I'll move one. different strokes rule the world.

[Orsino]

53. I refuse to subscribe...

...to the blame-the-victim mentality. I reserve my anger for those who are driving so many away, and for those who unwittingly assist their efforts to divide us.

[hollywood926]

25. Does this mean you are anti-immigration?

Do you think that Mexicans (just as an example) are cowards who aren't willing to work to improve their own country? That's odd, because they seem to work pretty hard when they get here.

I served my country in the Gulf War and have worked pretty damn hard for it. My point is - it appears that this country isn't worth working for, anymore. The government is corrupt to the point of no return, the people are morons who value stupidity, ignorance and arrogance.

What am I working for? The next season of American Idol?

[northzax]

26. not at all, immigration is the lifeblood of american society

I welcome anyone who wants to make a better future for themselves and their families. I am, however, against emigration which, whether voluntary or forced, bleeds a nation of the talent and intellectual capital needed to thrive in the global world. If a nation is unable to keep the young and talented from fleeing to make another place their home (note the difference between moving abroad for a time, and emigration, which is more permanent) then that nation will inevitably decline. Look at Ireland, cited as an example of a potential locale for emigration lower on this thread. For a century, the best and brightest, the adventurous and the hard working, fled Ireland to the United States, until there were more O'Malleys in Boston than Eire. It was not until that mass emigration slowed to a trickle and reversed in the late 80's and 90's than the country began an economic and cultural rennaisance.

Immigration, a boon for one nation, is another's loss in emigration. Certainly Mexico has gained much from the many people who haved moved north, but how much more would have been gained is they had stayed in Mexico, building capital and social/financial notworks? But Mexico does not have enough to keep them, so they leave, and create wealth here, for Americans. Our gain. Mexico's loss.

Look, there has never been a state built on mass migration, over centuries, of people either fleeing or seeking, besides the United States. In order for this to be effective, they, in essence, gave up their old birthrights of citizenship, to create another system. Those fleeing from the US should expect the same thing, you are giving up on this place, and trying another. The situation here today is so much better than anything that people fled to come here that comparing the situations is quite frankly ludicrous. But if everyone runs away, that situation will develop. That's all I'm saying. It's a self fufilling prophecy. You don't see poor people fleeing to Sweden for a better life, after all. And no disrespect to Sweden, their cars, saunas and women are quite lovely.

[Baja Margie]

41. Excuse me

Wait a minute, we don't live in the US, but we still pay federal and state income taxes because Mike still works in San Diego. Yes we flew the coop, but we still fight on. Are you aware that nearly 89% of expats voted for Kerry? We're running, you bet, from absolute chaos in Southern California, but we're not hiding, and to generalize that that is what expats do is just plain silly. Blanket generalizations are really sophomoric.

[northzax]

55. you pay taxes.

you contribute directly to US society. Ergo, you haven't actually fled the country. You may live elsewhere, but you are still here. thus you have the continuing abligation to involve yourself in the US political process (since what happens directly affects you, or at least Mike.) I have no problem with that. Do you take the expat exemption?

my problem is with people who deliberatly dissasociate themselves with everything american, and leave wanting nothing to do with the US. those people should not continue to vote in our elections, since they have made it perfectly clear they want no part of it. I don't care who they voted for, frankly. I've been an expat myself, but I remained involved with the US, I returned frequently, and still considered myself an American. there is a difference to me.

[Donkeyboy75]

62. People didn't come to America to be an American.

They came because it offered a better life for them and their family. Some who move abroad now are doing the same thing. I think our ancestors would very much understand that.

[ragin_acadian]

42. good job! i agree.

i don't want to meet my anscestors in the afterlife, and tell them that the new world was just too much effort for me.

especially since they got burnt out of nova scotia by the english for refusing to swear allegiance to the king of england.

so goddammit! i'm stayin. i ain't swearin allegiance to george bush, and he is gonna have to burn me out too, to get rid of me!!!!!!!!!!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

15. My ancestors and some of the country's founders

left their homelands becuase of religious intolerance to come to a place with more opportunity and less persecution.

Are you calling them "quitters" also?

[northzax]

17. without knowing their particular circumstance

I can't and won't do that. Do you think they would think the US today has religious intolerance on the level they fled? Woudl they think you are better off today because they did it, or would you have been better off staying behind?

[bobbobbins]

6. Juarez...thats all you need to know

[Crankie Avalon]

8. I hear Ireland is supposed to be nice...

...a country on the upswing and you wouldn't need to learn a new language.

[RagingInMiami]

10. Ireland rocks

I spent 18 months there and had a blast. But you have get used to the daily drizzle.

[RebelOne]

29. I've been there and it is a great county.

But if I was to live anywhere in the Britsh Isles, I would prefer Scotland. The people are warm and friendly and the scenery is beautiful.

[neweurope]

12. Staying on to fight sounds right... but Ireland is VERY nice although

I'd advise learning French :)

------------

Remember Fallujah!

Bush to The Hague

[SKKY]

13. Well, I'm transferring to Spain next month...

...and I'm considering, seriously considering, staying there when I retire from the military. I love this country, but I'm not willing to stay on this bus when the Bush Family drives it off the cliff.

[peacebird]

33. Spain! You will love it there!

we are hoping to tough it our here a few more years and then leave to retire in Spain! i would rather go sooner, but with elderly mother to think about looks like a few years from now is better.

enjoy it Sailor!

[SKKY]

38. It's something of a homecoming for me...

...I spent my first 6 years in the Navy there, and I met my wife there, so I've still got lots of contacts and people I keep in touch with. It's gonna be much more expensive this time though. The Euro is much more expensive than the Peseta ever was.

[peacebird]

49. What region of Spain do you hope to settle in?

after you get out? I love Asturia, the beautiful green north!

[SKKY]

54. Probably Andalucia, but I do like Madrid as well...

...Sevilla is, next to my hometown Louisville, my favorite city in the world by far. Love it, love it, love it. I'd settle for Madrid as well since it's only a 2 hours train ride down south.

[lpbk2713]

57. I'd like to see some pix of Rota if you ever get a chance.

I was there from 66 to 69 in a VR squadron. I'm sure it has changed a hell of a lot since that time. I liked the area and the Spanish people too.

[HuckleB]

59. Unless you're working for a US company...

it's very difficult to do much in terms of work in Spain. The culture does not work in the favor of outsiders.

Don't get me wrong. Spain is a wonderful country. I've spent many months there, but unless you're independently wealthy or work for a US company, it's a difficult place for a US citizen to make a living.

[PROUDNWLIBERAL]

14. New Zealand

We moved to New Zealand. A progressive country with a women Prime Minister (Helen Clark). We just passed a Civil Union Act. I have met only two people in New Zealand that like Bush---the rest of the people can't stand his sorry ass. The people like Americans, but not the American government. Although I voted this last election by absentee ballot, I have decided to turn in my voter registration card as I don't believe in America anymore. I will now work to become a New Zealand citizen. It was a hard choice, but I'm now at peace with it, and very happy about becoming a Kiwi. Seems like one of the posters here just might be a Repuke! That person is welcome to Amerika, I've taken a pass.

[fujiyama]

50. Don't give up your American citizenship just yet

Check if there's dual citizenship.

BTW, New Zealand sounds like a great country and I'd love to come there as well.

[corksean]

18. Come to Ireland, we'd love to have you

[neweurope]

19. Excuse me - where in Ireland do you live? My man and I were there the

first time this summer and absolutely loved it. Loved the countryside and loved the people. We'll certainly go there again!

And no - we didn't go to Kerry :))

on edit: That question was too intimate for an online-forum. Please forgive me!


--------------------------

Remember Fallujah!

Bush to The Hague

[corksean]

32. That's OK. A small village called Delgany, just south of Dublin n/t

[neweurope]

43. We might have come through there on our way to Kildare.

We're horsepeople and loved it there :) and will visit again for the Derby! I can hardly wait.

:bounce:

[AngryAmish]

46. Very expensive there

[Taxloss]

20. Well I love the UK, but you really should stay and fight.

eom

[ImpeachBush]

24. I feel the same as you ...

Although I haven't the resources it sounds like you have (business and money) ... I still have to work hard every day to make ends meet. I have thought plenty about leaving the U.S., too, although, in my case, it is more pipe dream than reality. As for the harsh critics, here, well, I feel things are well on the route Germany took in the 30's (demonizing specific faiths, races, immigrants, waging a war on "terror" to have a shield to hide behind while allowing torture, waging war, stacking the legislature, keeping the people stupid by making education too expensive or too shoddy, ignoring scientific research to push their own hate agenda, leading the public more and more into hatred against minorities and liberal thinking people, using fundamentalist churches to carry their messages, attacking anyone they considered a threat to their ideologies, etc., etc.) Few of today's historians fault the people who were lucky to escape the Nazi threat - most of those who stayed to 'fight', died (scholars, jews, gays, homeless, handicapped, and most who opposed the Nazis or offered aid or comfort to the targetted). It made no difference that they stayed in Germany (or other European countries, for that matter). Millions on millions died, anyway. Help only came in the form of a coalition of countries willing to do what it took to rid the world of Nazism.

I, for one, say ... good for you ... you have my blessing and best wishes.

[NewJeffCT]

27. Well, if you don't stay & fight...

Your weak American dollar still goes a pretty long ways in China (when we went in Sept, DVDs were 75 cents to $1 a pop) and they don't hate Americans there. From Shanghai on South, the weather is generally very warm. I'd recommend staying on the East Coast and in a major city, as it is more modern & open. All the street signs I saw in the cities were in both English & Chinese.

If you're single & a guy, you'll be very popular with the young ladies. If you're single & a woman, Chinese men are generally very good at doing housework, especially the closer you get to Shanghai. If you're married with young children, you'll be able to find a nanny and/or housekeeper very cheap...

[radwriter0555]

28. France is easy, Monaco is VERY easy to immigrate to, if you establish

residency.

I'm wavering between Italy and France and Monaco myself, depending on where the best business opportunities present themselves.

I leave in June after the child is done with school and I've sold the house.

[peacebird]

34. radwriter - i thought most of the EU nations were easy IF you were EU

already, or had ancestors from them. otherwise - unless you can start a business yourself, they don't seem to want you to move over and find a job? is my info incorrect?

i love Monaco and France, tho am hoping to move to Spain.

[Kellanved]

36. impossible to generalize

Citizenship and Immigration are country affairs largely unaffected by the EU.

[radwriter0555]

45. France and Monaco are the easiest; If you can establish direct ancestry

italy then becomes fairly easy. Italy is bureaucratically a nightmare, but one just has to be patient and charming.

For Monaco you merely have to rent or buy a place to live. Buying is pricey, renting isn't so hard.

France is much easier, but it really helps to marry.

Spain is quite easy and business opportunities abound there as a flourishing tourist centre.

No country wants a new citizen who will be a burden on their social systems or who will potentially take away employment from a national, so yes, to bring over new business is the most logical way to enter.

[amazona]

35. how about Panama or Costa Rica ? Or Belize?

A lot of people speak English there are a second language, and the people in Panama anyway seemed to me very patient with my awful Spanish. Are you looking for a job, or are you retired, or do you plan to start a business? If you are retired, I know Panama is welcoming to retirees, but maybe all Central America is, even Mexico has its expat commmunities where English is widely spoken. You can pretty much "buy" a residency in Panama by investing $100K.

Belize is English speaking. They are looking for retirees or else for people who bring investment. It used to be $50K to buy a Belizean passport but they cancelled the program because of the large numbers of Chinese who wanted to buy citizenship. You can still be a resident there.

Trinidad and Tobago (in the Caribbean) is English speaking. The expats I met there were working in the oil and gas industry.

There are other Caribbean islands where English is spoken but you might need to be very wealthy or else in the banking industry. I don't know much about them.

Oh, also in Central America, say you can't get residency so you have to leave a country and go somewhere else every 90 days or every 180 days. It is pretty easy. People live in Mexico, go to Guatemala or Belize twice a year on vacation for example.

I think Panama may be most attainable for those of us not made of money.

[TrustingDog]

39. Belize?

It's a wonderful little country that the US hasn't bombed yet. It was 10 years ago that I saw it.

paradise.

[mvd]

40. I'll see how much of Bush's radical agenda gets passed

I really want to see these people go down while being in the U.S. So before I leave, I'm watching for positive signs.

[jukes]

44. costa rica or belize

are supposed to be good if you can afford the entrance fee. if you don't like the tropix, i'd sugg holland.

english is readily spoken in all these; if you're willing to move, you shd try to learn the local language over time, though.

afraid the best i can do is build a bunker/tunnel complex. i question most definitions of those who want to stay & "fight". i think they're talking about voting & protesting; those are already lost causes. the theocracy won't give up w/o bloodshed.

[AngryAmish]

47. Zambia

Don't be prejudiced against Africa

[greyfox]

48. I love ya, but....

blah blah blah ... my freeper "friends" laugh at me when they see such because so many of us said we would leave if the Shrub got put back in... and here we sit... so.. what can I say?

[Orsino]

51. Vancouver, BC

My wife and I are headed that way, probably in the next year. It's in the twenties (F.) right now, but that's about as cold as it usually gets.

Ignore the naysayers who mutter of cowardice. Moving *is* doing something, and there is no particular virtue in simply sitting on your ass and claiming to be ready to fight. One good choice is to go contribute to real democracy, universal health care and gay marriage *now*, and to be ready to help the coming flood of Bush-dynasty refugees.

For those of you really staying to fight, more power to you. It may be that we of the Diaspora can be of some help, before we renounce our American citizenship.

[GOPBasher]

56. If we all leave, then the US will be even more right wing.

The more progressives who leave, the more right wing this country will be. And you can't escape, because the United States' policies affect everyone in the world, not just US citizens.

[HuckleB]

58. Wisconsin.

Two words: Russ Feingold.

[Darth_Kitten]

60. Hey! You cannot complain about the cold if you aren't here.....

:mad:

(experiencing yet another week of minus 40 degree celsius windchill)

[Darth_Kitten]

61. Hadashville, Manitoba

honestly, convenience store, post office and two houses.

You could run the town! :D