Ethical question: If someone is trying to kill your pet, do you

[Guaranteed]

have a right to kill them to prevent them from doing it?

This question actually occurred to me last week.

BTW, rhino, I'm so freaking sorry. And angry.

[WindRavenX]

1. I have no idea

But I have a feeling that me, a very non-violent woman, would suddenly become a hellion if anyone tried to hurt our border collie.

[driver8]

9. I have a Border Collie, too

These dogs are so smart -- it is frightening sometimes.

If someone had it out for our dog, it would be easy for them. Our dog loves everyone and just assumes that everyone loves him, too. He thinks everyone is a friend and greets them that way.

How someone could harm another person's dog is beyond me; but then again, I am a HUGE dog lover. It is very cowardly, if you ask me.

[0007]

21. I think I'd go nuts also! I don't think I'd kill anyone but who indeed

knows until that time comes.

[forgethell]

2. No, you don't.

But I certainly understand the urge. :mad: :grr:

Merry Christmas :-)

[Guaranteed]

6. Why not? The person is obviously a villain.

And don't you have the right to protect your pet? What if killing the person is the only way to keep them from doing it?

Don't tell me you just have to let them.

I'm not sure of the answer to this question, at all. I'm just trying to provoke discussion.

[blondeatlast]

60. There is a difference between the legal and the ethical question, too.

I think rhino's case might have a valid "defense of family" issue, myself (if she had had to react).

[forgethell]

64. Second off,

you will go to prison for a long, long time. First off, an animal's life just does not have the same value as a human being's, PETA and other assorted such nuts notwithstanding.

On the other hand, if you were trying to protect the animal non-lethally, and the aggressor up the ante to trying to kill or harm you, I think you would be justifed in using whatever force you had to.

However, I repeat, I understnd the urge, and would probably defend my pet, too. I just think it would be wrong

[RagingInMiami]

3. I'm a gun-packing liberal

And if someone purposelys kill my dog, I will have no choice but to ... take his kneecaps out.

[arcane1]

4. well, I don't know about the LAW...

but if anybody tries to even hurt Gowron, their ass is mine :grr:

[legally blonde]

5. ethically or legally?

Ethically, I say yes. Legally, probably not, although you can defend with a certain amount of force (i.e., less than death but enough to ward the attacker off). Although, if someone was trying to hurt my pet I would attack them with every fiber of my being.

[Guaranteed]

8. Definitely talking ethically, here.

I have no idea what the law would say- but I get the feeling it wouldn't be real justice.

[flvegan]

Legally? Depends.

In some states, individuals in the commission of a felony (animal cruelty resulting in suffering and/or death) that may, in the future commit future felonies, deadly force may be allowable if deemed necessary at the time to avoid the fulfillment of the crime at hand.

[Seabiscuit]

31. You're a little mixed up about the law. Deadly force is *never* allowed

in defense of property, and pets are personal property under the law. In all 50 states.

[Guaranteed]

35. I said "ethically," though.

We're getting a little off-track, here.

[Seabiscuit]

65. I know. But I wasn't responding to your post.

The poster I was responding to was talking about legal issues.

[Bunny]

38. I thought Texas allowed deadly force in defense of property. n/t

[Seabiscuit]

66. I doubt it. But who knows? It is Bush country, after all.

[Socialist Dem]

7. If someone tried to hurt my dog for no reason,

I'd stop them. If something happened to them while I was trying to stop them, too bad. I'd never intentionally try to kill anyone, but at the same time, bad things can happen.

[flvegan]

10. You have the obligation to prevent it

I'd suggest, that were someone to point a gun at a pet with the intent to shoot said animal, that said person would piss all over himself, then shit himself, then cry like a ballet-slippered munchkin that was hit with a bat, if he had a gun pointed at him. He's a piss-ass coward, and you probably wouldn't need to do more than point your finger at him and go "bang!" to make him run away.

Kill him? Wouldn't have to, but he'd never walk without a cane again. And no, I don't believe in violence either. I'd be bringing him into harmony.

[verdalaven]

11. Legally, probably not, but......

But ethically? Hey, when we adopt a pet we make them dependent on us for everything, including their safety. I'd say that ethically we have no other choice than to defend a pet's life, even if that means hurting a human to do it. After all, aren't humans supposed to know better?

Speaking as a dog owner, I wouldn't allow anyone to hurt my canine kid. They'd have to go through me first.

[Seabiscuit]

33. You can always use non-lethal force to defend your pet.

[Seabiscuit]

34. e.g.: kick the bastid in the nuts.

[American Tragedy]

12. I've thought about this. Are we assuming that you catch them in the act?

If anybody ever tried to harm my little dog Stanzy, they would either end up dead or permanently damaged. I am totally serious about that.

[Guaranteed]

14. Let's say they've got a knife and they're trying

to stab your pet, and you've got a gun in your hand.

What do you do?

[flvegan]

17. "Officer, he charged me. I had to do it."

Hope the blood splatter pattern backs it up.

[American Tragedy]

51. Shoot them in the head

It's the only way to absolutely stop them from continuing.

[UpsideDownFlag]

13. as long as you can make it look like an accident, imho. nt

[radwriter0555]

15. You have the right to protect your property to a reasonable extent,

and killing someone MAY not be construed as reasonable, depending on the circumstances, personalities, laws, lawyers, judges and jury. An animal is often considered (or not considered, in the cases of cats in some jurisdictions) property, by the way. A court would have to find if the animal is a family animal or an agricultural possession, such as a cow or sheep that's in a pasture.

You have to consider manslaughter charges and the varying degrees involved. You cannot however, become judge and jury and take the law into your own hands, that allegedly, is what our judicial system is for.

[Guaranteed]

16. Well, I don't think defending your pet can really be called

playing "judge and jury."

You do what it takes to make sure the guy isn't going to hurt a member of your family.

Shoot him in the leg? He's still got a knife. Could still kill your pet. Could still hurt YOU, in fact, and he definitely wouldn't be pleased after you shot him.

(in the scenario I set out above)

[flvegan]

18. Lawsuit, big time

Shoot someone in the leg, on purpose, and you've got huge problems. If you shoot, it's shoot to kill. Gun is deadly force, only.

[Guaranteed]

19. Or, hell, take rhino's case...

What if rhino had come up on his neighbor while he was shooting at his cat, and just happened to have a gun on him?

If the other guy has a gun, can you even conceivably and reasonably just try to wound him? Is that smart?

[flvegan]

22. "Officer, he turned towards me with the gun...

(sob)...I didn't WANT to do it, but I was in fear for my life."

"Any refuting stories? Witnesses?"

Silence.

[Guaranteed]

23. Of course.

:)

That one's easy.

[China_cat]

40. Ok, but there was a 6 year old child there, too

Would you want your 6 year old to see you kill someone?

[Guaranteed]

41. Would you want your 6 year old to see

you get killed?

Would you want your 6 year old to get killed?

[China_cat]

45. Of course not

But I still wouldn't want my child to see me kill someone.

[saracat]

20. Ethically? Absolutely. My pets are as important as children.

I actually believe that our pets are more important than people because they are the true innocents. But I am a fanatic about my pets. I think you should be or you shouldn't have them. That being said, legally ,obviously you can't. I think the laws dealing with animal protection need to be changed and defending an animal should be ranked with self defense. And we need much stiffer penalties for animal abuse!

[Threedifferentones]

24. In my opinion, no.

as in I probably would not make the sacrifice if put in the position. If I were a judge though I wouldn't charge with anything for doing it, assuming the person knows its your pet.


3D0

[man4allcats]

25. To my way of thinking

you have the right, ethically at least, to blow their goddamn brains out. No loss to humanity, that's for sure. Just a couple of tips though should you actually pull the trigger. When the cops show up, don't use words like "kill," "murder," or "waste the sorry bastard." If you say "I sent that fucker to hell where he belongs," the prosecutor will likely argue premeditation - and you don't want that. Simply tell the officers you were only "trying to stop him." The term "neutralize" is also acceptable. You might add that you were in fear for your life because you knew that if he would kill your pet, he certainly wouldn't hesitate to kill you as well. (This doesn't necessarily have to follow logically. It only needs to be said convincingly.) The fact that you have a tight, three shot pattern in the deceased's forehead just above his nose is not at issue. Can you help it if you're a good shot? All this compliments of my "Permit to Carry a Concealed Weapon" course. Here in Texas, even some of us Democrats take our weapons pretty seriously because although it might not be smart to say so when the police arrive, the truth, as that old redneck saying goes, is that "He needed killin'."

[tonekat]

26. Thou shalt not get caught...

but if you do, say you did it "for the troops". That excuse always seems to work.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

27. Depends on a lot of thigs, mostly local law

In NY that would be a felony, and you could claim that you were dependant on said pet for protection, thus his death would leave you in fear for your life, thus self-defense would enter.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

28. I was in a situation like once.

Some guy form down the street when I lived in Houston hopped my fence and was going to beat my dog with a baseball bat. Lucky I was home and I saw the guy in the backyard with the bat. I ran outside with my S&W 9mm and told him if he did not leave immediately I would shoot him. He turned my direction and my dog jumped him. It was a free for all for awhile. I got my dog off him and called the cops.

I did not get in trouble for pulling the gun. He did get in trouble for trespassing and the one hit he got in on my dog. He later sued me and lost because my dog had bit him.

I found out later the whole thing was because he thought my dog had deflowered his. Mine was neutered.

Would I have shot him? I would have, he looked crazy and I didn't even why he was in my yard weilding a baseball bat. I was scared out of my mind.

[Guaranteed]

29. Yikes...yeah, well I'm kind of surprised you didn't.

Sounds like your dog's actually the one the saved the situation from getting way out of control.

[CarbonDate]

68. What kind of dog was it?

My ex-g/f (with whom I am still friends) has a Belgian Malinois who loves her and me dearly, and will fucking *kill* anyone who looks at one of us cross-eyed.

I love dogs.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

69. Chow Chow

I had gotten him from the shelter when he was a pup. They had rescued him from an abusive breeder. He was very loyal to my daughter and me. He thought he was a big cuddly lap dog. That was the one and only time I ever saw him behave like that.

I really miss him, he passed away three years ago.

[Seabiscuit]

30. No. A pet is personal property. No lethal force allowed in defense of

property.

I understand how you feel, though.

[Guaranteed]

36. Isn't a pet a part of one's family, though?

Isn't an attack, a DEADLY attack, on a pet to be considered an attack against one's family? And not just symbolically.

Like look at the above poster who actually had a run-in with a man in his backyard wielding a baseball bat. Let's see- a guy is in your backyard, using a baseball bat on your dog. Isn't that an attack on your family?

[Seabiscuit]

67. Sadly, no.

Another example is that legally one cannot include a pet as a beneficary in one's will.

The guy with the baseball bat is trespassing, threatening cruelty to an animal, and also poses a possible threat to you. You may use nondeadly force to prevent an attack on your pet. For instance, if you have a baseball bat handy, you can hold it up and tell the jerk: "Hit my dog and I'll smash your ass for a home run! Now get off my property before I call the police." If he goes after your dog with the bat you can hit his arms/hands with your bat to prevent any harm to your pet. Just don't swing at his head with deadly force.

[GingerSnaps]

32. I would end up in prison

Enough said!

[LeftyMom]

37. If someone comes into my home

and starts attacking my pet, I can reasonably assume that they are deranged and that they might attack myself or my child next. They leave toes first.

If it comes to legalities I'd only have to demand a jury trial. I'm a small woman with a history or volunteerism and no criminal record, I'd have to sacrifice a baby to satan on the witness stand to get convicted in a case like that.

[cleofus1]

39. you cannot kill a human being to defend an animal...

I guess you could kick his/her ass. Probably reporting him to the police is the best avenue. Ethically killing a man/woman is wrong. Certainly killing an Innocent animal is a despicable thing, but you would be in a world of shit if you killed a man...morally or legally.
You don't really give any background...is your dog terrorizing neighbors children? He shitting in someones petunia bed? Or are you just talking about some psycho with a ski mask and a machete...

[Guaranteed]

43. We've got a few different scenarios going here,

but I guess just assume a psycho with a machete.

[ze_dscherman]

42. Absolutely no

As much as one may love ones pet, a human life values much higher.

[cleofus1]

44. yea verily....

Humans are at the top of the ladder...

[Guaranteed]

46. Alright, so you've got a guy in your own backyard, let's say,

chopping away at your dog or cat with a machete. Wouldn't shoot to kill him?

How about this- what if the guy had a gun, but was just out in front of your house, shooting at your pet?

[cleofus1]

47. jeez dude....

I grew up in los angeles and I'm wondering where your head is at.
some psycho is hacking my dog up with a machete...that sounds like a movie from wes craven. If some guy was in my front yard with a gun...I'd be getting the kids and wife and heading out the backdoor with a cell phone on line to the man.

you haven't answered my question...who is trying to kill your dog...and why?

and oh yes...when you start killing...then you have stared into the darkness too long and it has seeped into your soul.

[Guaranteed]

48. Dude...did you see this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2155804&mesg_id=2155804

[cleofus1]

49. he did the right thing....

He called the police...

sure you'd like to wring someones neck under those circumstances. but the right thing is to call the authorities. you don't kill anyone over an animal...

[Guaranteed]

50. Maybe not after the fact.

But I wouldn't feel guilt if I took someone out in order to save my pet's life.

[cleofus1]

52. you must be a sociopath....

you would feel no guilt over killing a human being? Think about what you are saying...I hope you are never put in a position where you have a choice of killing a person. it's a slippery slope...if you are willing to kill a person over a cat...then what next?

[Donkeyboy75]

53. You must not have a pet.

[Guaranteed]

55. Hey buddy, you're the one who doesn't give a shit if

someone kills your dog.

Yeah, you're really all there.

[American Tragedy]

62. I wouldn't feel guilt for killing a 'human being' who THREATENED MY FAMILY

As far as I am concerned, my dog is a member of my family, not property. If someone invades my house and attacks someone I love with deadly force, all bets are off.

I would desperately hope that I would be able to deter them just by holding them at gunpoint. But if it came down to either killing them or watching them murder Stanzy, I think that the choice would be pretty easy. I don't know many Americans who would disagree with me on that.

Bear in mind that this is one of only very few circumstances in which I consider violence justifiable. As anyone here who knows me must realize, I don't believe in capital punishment, and I sure as hell don't support war without extremely just cause. But, I believe that the right to protect yourself and your household is vital.

[American Tragedy]

63. Of course I wouldn't go over there and kill them afterwards

That's why I'm against capital punishment - it's just pointlessly punitive.

But if I caught them in the act and I was in a position to intervene at that very moment, that is a different matter.

[ze_dscherman]

57. NO, I would NOT shoot him

I would call the police immediately. That's what we usually do here in Germany, where only few people have a firearm. Believe me, still there are only rare cases people chop pets to pieces. And our murder rate is pretty low (in the last 50+ years).

I would not even try to defend a pet if I HAD a firearm. I don't think my life would be worth risking it for that purpose - and also, there are people who need me. It would definitely be different if someone threatened or tried to kill PEOPLE close to me.

[Catchawave]

54. I think protecting property comes under the right to bear arms?

Maybe someone from the NRA can verify ? Heh.

Ethically, I think we'd all react differently. So many circumstances would affect my answer. So many whackos out there, best try and prevent such a scenario by keeping your pets close to home and safe.

[cleofus1]

56. yes I've had pets...

and apparently I'm one of the the few "whose all there". what part of thou shalt not kill don't you understand? If you kill a human being over an animal you have truly lost your soul. So take it on balance...little Fifi or your soul?

of course i realize I'm not convincing anyone here who has made up their mind that killing people is OK if it's over a dog or a cat (how about a fish or a ham sandwich??).

so i will retreat to my sanctum sanctorum and play some git fiddle and ponder the universe.

[Solly Mack]

58. I would defend my pet, yes

by whatever force was necessary.

[blondeatlast]

59. Tough question; wow.

I think it's justifiable to be pressed into violence, but not to kill the person.

The self-control matter (could you hold yourself back?) is another issue entirely.

But that's a horrific situation, especially in rhino's case. I have a 7 year old, and I can imagine how devastating that was for her 6 yo.

From a legal standpoint, I bet most juries would hang on this case. I can't really see myself sending anyone to jail for anything more than a token sentence over this, really.

Good God, we live in a sick society, don't we?

[REP]

61. Yes

He was coming for me, cat got in the way, officer. I feared for my life.

[underseasurveyor]

70. On an emotional level my unblinking reaction would be to rip off

the mother fuckers head and shit down his neck :nuke: My pets are my precious babies.

Given the scenario of rhino's situation the poor kitty was not on her property so going over there to shoot the bastard after the fact, as much as I'd like too, I couldn't do. I might begin a long covert campaign of retaliation, sugar in a gas tank, slashed tires, broken windows, writing nasty things on his lawn with grass-killer ( ;-) doesn't show up for a couple days, it lasts a long time, all the neighbors see it and it's hard to quickly cover up short of ripping it out and replacing it with sod), etc. Is that right? No, but I don't believe I'd give a shit if it was wrong or hypocritical. A guy that lives across the street from my mom shot two of her kitties, in my mom's own yard and it devastated and paralyzed her with fear for a long time, not to mention the loss broke her heart. Then a couple years after that the guy periodically leaves dead animals on the trunk of my brothers car. The cops said they couldn't really do anything and they never did. So what would I care if his lawn reads that here lives an 'Asshole Cat Killer' or something like that :whistles-looksaround:. If I had lived closer I have no doubt some mysterious things would have occurred to the assholes property over a period of time. With that said:evilgrin:

Colorado has (had? they still did when we moved from there) the 'Make My Day' law where if someone comes onto your property to harm you or your property, rob you, etc., you have every right to defend yourself and your property and shoot them, even if they are outside of your house. Of course the controversy still continues on that law and if there have been any amendments made since we moved, I'm not up to date on em.

With or without that law in mind however, if I saw someone on my property with the intent of harming/killing one of my pets? I would have to assume that they were first trying to remove the potential threat (to themselves) of a dog(s) that will protect it's family from harm so that said criminal may carry out without further obstacles their demented agenda to the fullest and so therefore in order to protect myself and my family from immediate and eminent danger I had to shoot that person with their obvious crazed, wild-eyed murderous intent. My kitties? Why they're attack cats too ;-)

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it, Your Honor :-)

To Rhino: I'm sorry about your kitty :-( That really sucks big time. And just to clarify I should prolly add a little disclaimer here:spank:
I hope I didn't give you or anyone any ideas in anything I said in my post.

[billyskank]

71. Yeah, why not

a life is a life, right? A person's worth isn't defined by their cognitive abilities.