Why is the Muslim world stuck in some kind of dark age

[Swede]

I mean they had astronomy and algebra centuries before Europe. Now they cover their women,beat themselves bloody at religious gatherings etc.

[Fixated]

1. .....

My dad is from Iran. It's not like that everywhere, but the fanatics and more religious types (there are people who seem very normal until you hear their beliefs) are absolutely ass-backwards. It's astounding, and I can't really explain it.

[blondeatlast]

2. No different than fundie zealots in any religion, really.

There's plenty of wackiness to spread around . . .

[baldguy]

3. Because they have evil dictators ruling them and they're poor.

[Fixated]

4. ....

It's not that simple. The idealogies have reached the upper and middle classes in those countries. It could be attributed to poverty in many cases, but now it's just simple brainwashing and ignorance.

[Swede]

5. No,I'm serious here

Stick with the middle east. It's nothing simple and I'd like to here some ideas.

[Don_G]

6. And Our Freepers Aren't?

A few crazy Fundies yell loud enough to be heard and grab everyone's attention. Pretty soon they take over (in our case the GOP).

They don't have the tradition or benefit of a democracy (the way we're headed) plus they remember that the UK/US pretty much divided up their land and oil to benefit the US and the UK back in the 1920's.

I would be pissed off too.

[FauxNewsBlues]

8. It's fundamentalism

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Does poverty lead to fundie behaviour, or vice versa. You have to look here too. Greatest areas of rural poverty in Bush country is heavily fundie.

[mlawson]

34. Fundamentalism seems to effectively shut people's brains down.

Of course, that is the hope of the 'leaders' -- makes them much easier to control, if they think that 'God' says to do this, and not do that, etc etc. But the key is to have the masses convinced that some mullah or preacher has a direct link to 'God'. Once that is accomplished, undoing it appears to be almost impossible.

[rock]

7. Religious zealots

Thank God, we don't have that here.

[Raenelle]

30. Religion and fundamentalism. I'll bet they don't believe in evolution

and by God they're not going to evolve, either.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. Modernization in the region would be contrary to Anglo-US interests

You might be interested in reading about the activities of the US and England in the region for the last 80 years or so.

Western financial interests are better served by allowing local "pro-Western" leaders a free hand to keep the masses barefoot, hungry and ignorant, and efforting as necessary to prevent any democracy from popping up anywhere.

A government democratically elected by an educated, well-fed and informed population could not be counted on to put US business interests ahead of the well-being of its own citizens.

Saudi princes and Hosni Mubaraks can, if they are paid well and often.

Stability in the region would have a high potential of decreasing revenues to defense sector companies, as well as jeopardizing US plans for control of the area's natural resources.

[catzies]

15. Modernization is contrary to those interests here at home too!

You said a mouthful with this:

"A government democratically elected by an educated, well-fed and informed population could not be counted on to put US business interests ahead of the well-being of its own citizens."

I don't have to go overseas to find that of which you speak. It's here.

[Friar]

21. you just described

"Globalization", I think.

This is the source of all anti-western thought in the third world which is mostly also the Muslim world. What's wrong with them? We only want to steal their resources to enrich our billionaires. What's wrong with that? Our wealthy are better than everyone else. They have money.

[dani]

25. I think that's the biggest reason

the superpowers have clandestinely destroyed any democratic movement that has developed, so liberalism -- open society -- has never gotten a foothold. In Iran, for example, the USA and Britain installed the repressive Shah regime. This sort of thing fuels radicalism / fundamentalism, in Iran it exploded into the Islamic Revolution.

In the pro-Western client states, when the people live under those type of repressive regimes they know there's no peaceful way to create change, so it makes it easier for the fundamentalists to recruit more people into their regressive (and sometimes violent) organizations.

[wtmusic]

10. Sweeping generalization

Busted.

What percentage of Muslims 'beat themselves bloody'?
Have you heard of modern-day Christians nailing themselves to the cross?
Is their culture different than yours?
Would you like to extend your vision of human rights to their culture?
Do you believe they might want to extend theirs to ours?
Did you know that for Muslims professional wrestling and boxing enjoy zero popularity?
That the Koran borrows extensively from Christianity as well as Judaism?
That the pre-invasion murder rate in Baghdad was one half of Los Angeles'?
What element of their 'backwardness' has nothing to do with their faith and everything to do with their standard of living?

Pursue tolerance. These are questions to ask before you assume their age is any 'darker' than our very own.

[Swede]

12. No this is a legitimate question

There is some kind of decline and I would like to here some answers

[Friar]

22. religion always fights against progress

and always has.

It's the 21st Century and we are still debating the Scopes trial in this country.

[pippin]

13. good points wtmusic

there is no single "Muslim world" unless you mean countries governed by Koranic law, if so the degree and manner of enforcement varies very widely.

"beat themselves bloody"-- Catholics used to also practise flagellation; some sects in the US subject themselves to snake bites


In his last sermon Prophet Mohammed said "treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers." Mohammed himself was married to a well to do business woman and she was his boss!

The practise of covering women up from head to toe is not Koranic. This practise and purdah was actually started in India by the Mughuls as a mark of prestige.

"the Koran borrows extensively from Christianity as well as Judaism" well, Christianity borrows extensively from Greek and Egyptian religions not mention a healthy dose of Mithraism. Islam itself also has unique roots in the tribal religious practis that existed before Mohammed.

I don't know what people in the US mean when they label a nation backward--poverty, no health care, yes, but Americans don't understand that a lot of countries in the world don't want to be just like us. They don't want urban sprawl, they don't want supermarket chains, they don't want sitcoms on tv, they don't want sex used in selling crispy crunchies, and they don't want super highways . . .so is that backward?

[Iris]

19. poverty and no health care?

The US is justified in calling country backwards for harboring those conditions?

[DocSavage]

11. Interpretation of the Koran?

Consider that half of the eligible work force is taken away due to thier gender. There is no room for inovation or the arts. If it is perceived to be against the Koran, then it is not allowed. Thier form of government is not representative, the people have no say. Thier economy is based on one export, there is no economic activity other than oil.

The best thing that has happened to the people the whole world is the information age. With a satellite dish, the world is yours and there is no censorship. During Saddam's reign, ordinary people were not allowed to own satellite dishes, wonder why. It is a class society also, one that we have a hard time understanding. Arrainged weddings, family feuds that have lasted for 100's of years.

[ikojo]

41. I cannot reference the source right now but I read that

before the Iran/Iraq war, the Iraqis were among the most well educated in the Middle East. Of course diverting money and resources to fighting war after war (hmmm sound familiar?) decimated the country and did away with the middle class.

[comradebillyboy]

14. the religious and cultural constraints

ie fundamentalism and tribalism are a real drag on progress and enlightenment.

[Bridget Burke]

16. There is no monolithic "Muslim world"

Many Muslims to NOT "cover their women" & MOST do not "beat themselves bloody".

Several times, I've tried to compose an answer ranging from the role that Genghis Khan's relatives played in ending the great age of Islam through our imposition of the Shah on the Iranian people. With stops along the way for such events as the Crusades & the Versailles Conference.

However, that's a lot of information. With such a gaping maw of ignorance to satisfy, I'd rather try to fill the Grand Canyon one pebble at a time.

May I ask, what stagnant backwater do you inhabit such that you've never actually MET a Muslim?

[Swede]

20. What I'm trying to get across is they were ahead of the west

not that long ago. I know it's not as simple as democracy,or the industrial revolution.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Please, give us YOUR ideas!

I just know that you have them.

[Swede]

31. That's just it,I don't have answers

I know it's not something simple. Bigotry,poverty,fundalmentalism,are huge,faceless things. Maybe it will take a 100 years to look back and someone can say that "Yes here is where it began."

[greenwow]

17. Whites were responsible for the Dark Ages!

Trying to associate the same sort of things with Muslims is just wacky. It was whites that were responsible for over a thousand years of problems. We might just be seeing the start of another dark ages that the whites (ok, so it's white religious fanatics and white repugs) are starting again.

[Friar]

23. whites also preserved documents

during the Dark Ages. Many manuscripts kept protected for centuries by various monastic orders became the foundations for The Enlightenment.

[Kamika]

18. easy answer

They follow laws that were made for the year 500 not the year 2000

[Friar]

24. laws made in 500 C.E.

sucked!

[Orangeone]

26. The question is faulty

You should read Edward Said. He explains alot about the effects of colonialization on the arab world.

Sometimes I hate the attitude that The West is the end of History. That The West has triumphed and that's it. That's what the Romans thought, and what all the great civilizations thought.

[Swede]

27. The west may be in decline too

Consumerism isn't exactly a shining example of civilization.

[newyawker99]

28. Hi Orangeone!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[NicoleM]

32. I could be wrong but

I think there are like a BILLION Muslims in the world. That's a lot of people. They don't all live in "some kind of dark age." I have a friend who went to Iran by herself a year or two ago. She had a great time, and the people were very friendly. They weren't anti-woman or anti-Westerner at all.

A lot of what you seem to be blaming on Islam is actually cultural, not religious, IMO. A lot of the rest of the world views the US as Christian, and imperialist. Does that make you a Christian or an imperialist (if you're American)? Does that mean all Christians are imperialists?

[Mari333]

33. Here's an interesting tidbit on some of the misogynism

http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/blston2.htm
There were, in pagan times, seven priestesses at site of the Black Stone, who circled it seven times, naked. Today, the tawaf, the sevenfold counterclockwise circuit of the Ka'bah, is a memory of that ancient practice. But the older practice is itself a strong echo of the descent of the Sumerian goddess Inanna (and her Babylonian equivalent Ishtar) through the seven gates of the underworld, the gatekeepers demanding the removal of a garment at each gate until she stands naked before her elder sister Ereshkigal, 'Queen of the Great Earth', the goddess of death and the underworld. Another name for Ereshkigal is Allatu, 'the goddess', which is clearly an earlier form of Al'Lat/Alilat.

[NaMeaHou]

35. Simple

FEAR

fear of change
fear of other beliefs
fear of life itself.

Not to be ethnocentric, but any culture that does not embrace the types of progress that enrich peoples lives is foolish. and fearful.

[Skittles]

36. relgion thrives on fear

and they make sure everyone gets a regular dose of it.

[Ivory_Tower]

37. "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong

A very good book (written around 1999) that covers the history of fundamentalist sects in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

She covers this a bit, and I can't recall the details, but I seem to remember that western colonialism had an impact in a couple of ways. One effect was to crush the spirit of the region -- generating a sort of self-loathing, or at least an acceptance of Westerners as "superior". The other effect was the backlash against the first, and a rise in fundamentalism in response to it -- a sort of identity movement, I guess.

I'm really not doing her book justice by that rough (and probably inaccurate) summary -- I highly recommend getting it from your library or purchasing it if you can.

[Swede]

38. I'll check it out. Thanks

[salmonhorse]

39. Islam is some 570yrs behind the curve...

...and somehow rather proud of it. Pride. One of the deadly sins.

But it is not just Islam. It has taken The Vatican some 600yrs to push the pope out front and even say they were sorry for the sins they foisted upon humanity i.e. The Maya. The Aztec, brilliant as they were, through the heartless corpse' of their select down the steps of otherwise great works of masonry & intellect. This species, we humans; while miraculous & beautiful are as well twisted with thickets of penance & mis-placed venegence.

Islam is no exception. Islam needs to get itself together for the greater good of it's people if not us all.

My opinion ~

http://www.islamicity.com

[SOteric]

40. Blaming religion is intellectually naive.

Religion was as prominent and persuasive a force during, for instance the Ottoman Empire, and other heydays for Islamic influence throughout history.

The Ottomans represent some of the heights of human ingenuity, brightness and invention. They were one of the most influential Muslim empires of the modern age.

Historians attribute the disintegration of the Ottoman's highly evolved culture and efficient military not to the influence of religion, but to the secularisation of Turkey after World War II. I agree, in part, but not for the reasons of religion and the secular.

I find it fascinating that so many choose to perceive religion as though it were a thing separate from the human race rather than just another element of the humanity which has afflicted Mother Earth for so many countless generations. Religion, like Atheism and politics and nationalism, etc., - is essentially a focus-group of human beings with an agenda. And like all focus groups, some are fruitful and promote growth, others are destructive at varying rates of speed.

Religions can rally a population for good and for achievement. They can provide a cohesive element in a widely scattered population allowing diverse communities to feel connected by a common bond. And yes, the more fractious elements can rent lives, nations, whole societies.

What has facilitated the disintegration the Ottoman, Arabia and the Middle East, what afflicted the Roman Empire as it failed, what afflicts most empires in their death throes is separation/alienation, ignorance, poverty and disease.

To hold connected a huge, diverse population requires amazing amounts of resources. Even a benign ruler cannot be everywhere at once. Think of the difficulty Skinner, EarlG and Elad have in keeping an eye on everything that goes on in these boards, of their inducting volunteer moderators. So too, traditionally have the rulers of nation and empire appointed governors.

Islamic countries have been splintered by religious zealots in those roles of governorship. Their religions had begun to not act as a support to a cohesive identity because they’re too intricately varied in implimentation. The more fanatical separate and alienate themselves from the ruling body. Poverty and ignorance allow a distructive downward spiral that cannot get foothold in a more enlightened population. If the education and affluence of the population is high, they immigrate or they resist the rulership by an obsessed leadership whether that be obsession of religion, or political allegiance, or ethnicity, ad infinitum…

The Muslim world has some bright centers of industry, ingenuity and culture yet remaining. Those elements of the Islamic civilisation which are devolving suffer the ill-intentions of every petty warlord who can grasp greedily at any tiny slice of power. Whether that be a pseudo-religious stick with which to beat the unruly or illicit backing and weapons supplied by a superpower.


As much as we may like the luxury to point and scoff, the U.S. is different only in one minute way. We have the same obsessed political factions, the same religious and Anti-Theist fanatics, the same splintering, a rising level of ignorance and poverty. But traditionally if not currently, our government has kept a tight reign on the fanatical factions, religious subsects, of separatists, of political extremism. If and when this changes, we go the way of the Greek, the Romans, the Byzantine, the Carolingians and the Ottoman.

[Shanty Oilish]

42. Here's a theory

Tom Bethell's book "The Noblest Triumph: Property and Prosperity Through the Ages" offers the theory that the insecurity of private property has reduced the Arab world to its current state.

Here's a comment from The Independent Review --- http://www.independent.org/tii/content/pubs/review/books/tir34_bethell.html

(snip)
For the Arab world, Bethell notes that "the brutal punishments meted out to thieves suggest that Arab property is prized and protected. The problem is that there is no security against the depredations of the state itself" (p. 225, emphasis added). Land that was once cultivated and productive is now desert. Bethell dismisses the Koran as the source of the difficulty. Instead, he traces the problem to a "freezing" of Islamic law in the fifteenth century. Much of the discussion runs in terms of Europe's ascendancy relative to the Arab world after 1600.

[jiacinto]

43. This is an offensive post

While there are some problems with the Muslim world your post is a sweeping generalization that is offensive.

[Swede]

46. I wasn't sure how to frame the question

But I am sincere. Some of the replies where quite helpful and I have some reading to do.

[kodi]

44. my take

Islam, in the 12th century had extruded from it any line of heterodoxy. And it is the presence of such heterodoxy in the West that has lifted it beyond the Islamic world in economic strength. This Western heterodoxy is called rationalism. The Islamic world had it, but lost it.

While it is true that a summation of some of the glorious things brought to the world by Muslims and Islam would fill volumes. Yet with all that this civilization, one that spanned the Eurasian continent for over a millennium, from the Atlantic to the Pacific, it declined intellectually, philosophically, economically, and scientifically.

The evolution of a fierce orthodoxy in Islam after the time of Ibn Rushd throttled the brightest intellectual and scientific culture the world ever saw up to that time. The manner of distrusting human reason and towards mysticism in al-Ghazali's "the Destruction of the Philosophy" served as a standard for later Islamic theology and served as a cudgel in the hand of those who swayed the Ulema against rationalism.

The stress brought about by this roll back of rationalism in Islam was not overnight, there were still magnificent achievements by Muslims across a wide range of arts, sciences, architecture, and medicine, but the damage was done. The stifling of rationalism played as major a part in the decline of intellectual thought in the Islamic world as did the Mongol invasions in the 13th century to their physical empires.

The West has had the dynamic tensions of the Cities of Man and of God in conflict, viz., the Greek Paganism and Rationality versus Judeo-Christian Morality and religious iconography. Islam snuffed out this conflict long ago.

I am sore put to believe a scientific renaissance from Islam if each new scientific fact discovered is merely defined as mystical revelation of Allah, and any disputes about the features of such discoveries considered within the realm of discourse for definitive truth by a council of mullahs.

Any such efforts of theology into a field requiring rationalism like science smacks of Lysenkoism

Not withstanding his own influences by Western rationality, I would recommend Muhammad Iqbal’s “Six lectures on the reconstruction of religious thought in Islam,” you will find that he thought that, as the West has come to see in their religious icons, that Islam, its sacred tenets and texts must be rethought and reinterpreted allegorically.

So must all religions.

[Blue_Chill]

45. Because for whatever reason they chose....

to close themselves off from the world. I heard a guy on NPR say it also has a lot to do with oil, in that they are able to generate so much wealth without progress.