Repeat after me, Alexander the Great was gay, not bi, gay, not sexually

[joeybee12]

ambiguous, but gay, gay, GAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, he got married and fostered some brats--he needed an heir and he needed to form alliances, and those were marriages of convenience. Rock Hudson was married--yes, it's called furthering your career, and it was done even back then.

Yes, men fooled around every which way back in those days, but Alex was gay because his lasting relationship was with a man--his second in command, and Alex died only a few short weeks after his lover did--a combination of grief and alcoholism.

There is no evidence that Alex had a real relationship with any womn other than sex for procreation and strategic alliances, so don't go looking for something that didn't exist!

[JohnKleeb]

1. Ok if you say so, I just thought I heard he was bi

[joeybee12]

5. It just irritates me that Hollywood, and many historians, for that matter

just cannot accept the fact that some GREAT people were actually gay. Sure, lets not be ambiguous about gay serial killers, but if they're heroes or people of great talent, they go looking for ways to try and minimalize their homosexuality.

[JohnKleeb]

7. Right I understand completely

You got a point, I plead ignorance here I really thought he was bi.

[joeybee12]

11. Well, it's easy to get that impression from watching Hollywood movies...

...and, like I said, from some historical accounts.

[Liberal Veteran]

2. So was Achilles....

:)

[Sequoia]

6. All men were back then

it was accepted practice and men's bodies were more glorfied than women. Women were for having babies and spinning. Besides, men couldn't get pregnant.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. Yeah, but Achilles wanted to have his ashes mixed with Patroclus ashes

...when he died.

NOW that's GAY!

[qnr]

3. Um, so?

He was human, that's enough for me.

Off on a tangent: Any time I hear talk about gays in the military, I automatically think of the Spartans anyway.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. In traditional societies, all men get married unless they've taken

religious vows or are severely disabled, because they are expected to father children for the clan.

It has nothing to do with their personal inclinations.

[MrModerate]

8. Chill there, fella!

How important is it really whether he was bi, gay, or even polymorphously perverse (which gets my vote).

It certainly didn't mean all that much in his historical context -- he was a near-god to his contemporaries and where he put his peepee was not (one presumes) something they would have a meaningful opinion about. Not to mention, since he did the dynastic thing (although not with any Greek/Macedonian women, aha!) who cared?

And who cares now (outside of yourself and whoever it was who ticked you off on this topic in the first place)?

Just wondering.

<Edit: Oh, yeah -- the recent movie. Haven't seen it. It's not playing in Cluj yet.>

[joeybee12]

13. Yeah, and the movie "De-Lovely" pissed me off too.

[qazplm]

10. I think you are trying to impart

20th Century labels on ancient times.

Alexander grew up in a society, a SOCIETY, where the meme was that the only true love was between men, and that yes women were for procreation, but that they were, well too stupid for actual "love".

I dont think we could possibly know what Alexander was, unless you want to assert that all of Greek society during that time was "gay".

I dont think that label works well because of the time and the culture involved. I suspect that had Alexander been born a few centuries later as a Greek under Roman rule, he might have not been "gay" at all. Then again, he might of been, we just wont know.

[joeybee12]

12. Not true--most men gave up gay sex once they got married--the idea

was when you were young you fooled around with other men, but after a certain age, it was frowned upon. Alex didn't stop having sex with men--he was gay!

[qazplm]

14. Oh I dont think that is true at all

it was celebrated in verse and song, you will have to show me a link on that one, because I remember it being quite different and remember little about it being "frowned upon" after marriage, quite the opposite in fact.

One of the themes was older men taking young men for example if i recall correctly. I mean the bottom line is, you dont know his true orientation, you cant know it, and IT DOESNT MATTER!!!

What do you get a badge if it turns out he was gay?

[joeybee12]

17. Bullshit! It does matter, because he was gay, and people go looking

for excuses when there's lots of evidence that he was gay.

Why are you so quick to assume that I can't know when the evidence suggests he is? I'm so sick of the homophobia found ever here on DU.

Some great people can be gay! Some smart people and talneted people can be gay!

Get over it!

[qazplm]

23. lol

there is no "homophobia" involved here.

He could have been gay, he could have been straight. I personally believe he was likely bi. I dont really care which option is true to be honest so not really sure how that makes me homophobic other than I look at the evidence without wanting it to fit a certain frame of mind.

He had passionate love affairs with at least one of his wives, he had a passionate love affair with at least one man....seems to me the best word to describe that is bisexual or perhaps just plain polyamorous.

But again, why does it matter?

[Bertha Venation]

15. Why does it matter?

[On the Road]

16. So Roxanne the Uighur was a Beard?

[Threedifferentones]

18. I think the point here is about the new movie

and the fact that Hollywood will probably not give an accurate portrayl of Alexander's sexuality because he was gay (or bi or whatever). Of course this is because it could hurt the movie commerically, but that's the whole problem: Americans will not accept that someone who is not a hetero-sexual is capable of accomplishing what Alexander did, but it seems perfectly natural to them that the killer in Silence of the Lambs is a cross-dresser. Basically the movie illustrates what we alreadsy know, that in our society there are a great many people who think homopsexuality is a sin and therefore evil.


3DO

[qazplm]

24. well thats a different argument

and one that has some validity although I havent seen the specific movie and cant comment on that in this case.

But thats a far different story from trying to impart a sexuality on a guy as gay, end of story, which is no different or better, IMO, then ignoring the possibility that he was either gay or bi.

The bottom line is they didnt make the same demarcations back then as we do know so todays labels just dont fit, but if one were to be used, considering he had passionate affairs with both men and women, bi seems to work better than gay.

Of course, he was a great figure no matter WHICH label you want to put on him...without him, western civilization likely would have never evolved the way it did.

[Mike Daniels]

28. Since all advance notice is that the movie is an unmitigated disaster

and sucks bollocks, I don't think it'll be on screen long enough for it to matter how they portrayed his sexuality.

[saracat]

19. Wow! Why the slam against women????

You must really dislike women.

"Yes, he got married and fostered some brats" ???

"There is no evidence that Alex had a real relationship with any womn other than sex for procreation and strategic alliances, so don't go looking for something that didn't exist!"

I didn't see the movie or whatever you are referring to, but where is it written that gay men can't have "real" relationships with women?
I am a married heterosexual women and my best friend is gay.We have been friends for over twenty years and I resent that you would imply such relationships are not "real". Do you have to have a sexual realtionship for it to be "real" If so ,what kind? Obviously Alexander's wife didn't count to you! Did it ever occur to you that someone might actually "like " and "respect" the mother of their children even if they weren't their sexual partner of choice? And besides, how do you know, for a fact, that Alexander didn't enjoy what he did with his wife? Were you there? Why are you superinposing your feelings on a long dead historical figure?

[KFC]

27. He had to enjoy having sex with his wife

Otherwise the little guy would not have stood at attention. I would give him the benefit of the doubt - i'm guessing he loved his wife (and kids). The fact that he also had sex with men makes him - by definition - bi.

What's the big deal?

[hlthe2b]

33. I wonder that too.. Does the OP really believe that bisexuality is somehow

an affront to those that are gay? That some men can not really enjoy sex with both women and men-- so that sex with a woman must be predicated on some ulterior motive, unrelated to enjoyment, desire, sexuality?

I see no response to Saracat's question, so I do have to wonder...

[qazplm]

20. as a matter of fact,

even on outcyclopedia.com it recognizes his dual sexuality:

"Though having himself both Greek and Persian wives, and renowned especially for his love for his wife Roxana, Alexander is equally well-known for his passionate and loyal love for Hephaestion, his eromenos."

Now two things strike me, even that site says he was renowned for loving one of his wives which makes me assume it was more than just for producing babies.

and secondly it says there is a specific greek word for the role Hephaestion played in his life.

Another website i went to said his father, Phillip, also had many male lovers, that many of his soldiers paired off to bond better in battle.

The only prohibition I can see was that the society preferred that older men take to bed with younger men and not that they did it with men their own age.

But there is scant evidence that he was clearly gay or clearly straight, I think bisexual is the best way of describing it.

[johnnie]

21. Granted, some historians might get facts wrong

But really man, don't let Hollywood movies get to you that much. It's all for the big bucks and that's it. Most Hollywood movies are for shit and shouldn't be taken seriously. If people base their knowledge of history from what they rent at Blockbusters then that's their problem and they should be ashamed.

[Lex]

22. So was Lawrence of Arabia -- T.E. Lawrence

just sayin'

[patcox2]

25. Whole different set of social mores then, I doubt it corresponds.

It means one thing to say someone is "gay" in our society, it means something different in a totally different society.

For one thing, our society's ingrained homophobia is what has created the label and the lifestyle and the need to even care about whether someone was "gay" or not. In the absence of this homophobia, people would be less likely to want or need to label themselves or others (as you are seeking to laber Alexander). Instead, sexual preference or orientation would be something relativelty unremarkable, it would be on a level with "I prefer Fords over Chevrolets," "I don't like spicy food," and "I like men" would all be equally shocking statements. In other words, the only reason our society insists on a strict dichotomy of "gay" and "not gay" is because we are so homophobic and the homophobes can't deal with their own relative level of homosexuality (everyone has some measure of homosexuality, don't they?)

So for one thing, your very need to label Alexander is not an attribute of his society at that time.

Secondly, I am not sure about Macedonian society, but I know that in Greek society, homosexuality was nearly universal. Men had relationships with men and women. It was considered just a part of your sex life, like, you eat chicken today, you eat steak tomorrow. Married men had boyfriends. It was considered normal to have strong "crushes" on other men. Some men may have liked other men more, some less, but there was no line to cross or label attached. It was so different from our society that I really just don't see how our label applies.

[qazplm]

26. exactly!

what I was trying to say and probably not as well as you just did.

[democracyindanger]

29. Did we quit after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!?!

[hlthe2b]

30. I just want to know the TRUE story of Hannibal...

and his elephant! :evilgrin:

[Atlas Mugged]

31. An interesting aside...

...his father, Philip of Macedonia, was killed by one of his (Phillip's) boyfriends.

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/philip_macedon/

And, for what it's worth, there's an old Arab proverb, which I've seen referenced on numerous occasions, that goes:

For children, a woman
For pleasure, a boy
For sheer ecstasy, a melon

The Comedy Central show, 'Travel Sick', even had an episode shot in Morocco where the show's host, Grub Smith, porks a watermelon on camera. This is pretty tame compared to an episode in Hong Kong where he eats a roasted penis from some mammal. I didn't catch which animal's penis it was; it was huge, roasted and I was too busy suppressing nausea.

[Xithras]

32. He was bi, there is NO evidence to the contrary

Most arguments about Alexander the Great being a gay man seem to revolve around the length of his relationship with Hephestion, but there was absolutely nothing out of the ordinary with it. Did they have sex when they were younger? Yes, but they were living in an era and societies that considered sex between unmarried men to be acceptable. What evidence was there that he carried on that sexual relationship after his marriage?

None. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Only an unfounded accusation written centuries after his death, by people who never met him, who may have had motives that were less than honest.

And what of his women? He had three wives, and while two were likely political and in name only, his marriage to Roxane was anything but. Roxane was the daughter of a king in modern day Afghanistan and was repeatedly proclaimed to be "the most beautiful woman in all of Asia" by the scribes of her day. The historians and scribes present describe Alexander as being instantly smitten, and that the two were inseperable during his time in that region. The scribes of the day never had any problem labelling political marriages as such, but the marriage between Roxane and Alexander was always described as a marriage of love, not politics.

So what evidence is there that he maintained a sexual relationship with Hephestion after his marriage? The only thing left to point out is his grief over Hephestions death, but how could Alexander do anything BUT grieve? They were lifelong friends, tutored together under Aristotle, fought wars together, and were most certainly sexually close when they were younger. Profound grief at his friends death is to be expected, but it doesn't indicate that Alexander was anything other than HUMAN.

As for your final note about his date of death: Alexander died more than eight months, not "weeks", after Hephestion, and even then only after he took an arrow to the chest while invading India. Badly wounded, Alexander had finally ended his campaign and was headed back to Babylon when he was struck by an unknown virus and, in his already weakened state, died of a high fever. His death had nothing to do with the passing of Hephestion.

Alexander was bi, like so many of his contemporaries...not gay.