Wiccans, Pagans, etc--I need your wisdom, please; but it is a bit long.

[blondeatlast]

First off, let me state very clearly that NO OFFENSE IS MEANT by this thread. I respect your beliefs just as much as I do my own or anyone else's; and if you feel I am being disrespectful, please let me know. Again, that is NOT my intention.

Now, the problem:

I work in the selection & acquisitions dept. of a very large metropolitan library system (which essentially means, where the books are selected and purchased). It is part of my job to replace books that are lost.

Unfortunately, a hugely diproportionate segment of our losses are in the subject of Other Religions (the unfortunate Dewey 299). Basically, they check OUT, but they don't get checked back in. This is a problem for virtually all libraries, not just ours. We KNOW that these books are tremendously popular and we buy accordingly (mind you, Holy Bibles tend to disappear, too, but still not on the level that books about Other Religions do). But it costs us a small fortune to replace a book; not only the library price (just a notch above wholesale), but shipping, cataloging, processing, etc. Even if we manage to collect a "lost item" fee, it doesn't cover our cost to replace.

Further complicating the matter, these books tend to have low initial print runs and also tend to go out of print very quickly, so quite often, the BEST BOOKS ARE IRREPLACEABLE (we simply cannot utilize the out-of-print market, much as we wish that we could).

Why does this happen? Any ideas how it can be curbed? It seems to me that the people it hurts mostly are Wicca followers, or those interested in Wicca.

I really do appreciate your (respectful) input. I hope I have been respectful of you, if not, please tell me so.

On edit, corrected for very stereotyped language, sorry--no harm was meant!

[zbird]

1. Is it possible that the books are "lost" by non-Wiccans?

I am not a Wiccan myself, but I would wonder if there is a concerted effort by the "religious" in the communities to "lose" these books and therefore make them unavailable, thus "saving" untold numbers of people from non-Judeo-Christian belief systems?

[T Roosevelt]

3. That thought crossed my mind too...

Do other classifications have significant losses as well?

[blondeatlast]

7. Yes indeed (I mentioned Bibles), but with one exception, Wicca

has the most losses. The exception is GED books--and I would say they are neck and neck.

[blondeatlast]

10. And as for the religion classes (finally dawned on me)

of course, the DDC is a bit of a problem, since it shoves all religions into the 290s except for Christianity, which is a real pisser for librarians (who run the spiritual gamut).

In the 200s, the next most often lost classification, is (educated guess) Bibles, oddly enough. Still not anywhere on the scale of Wicca, though. And it wouldn't even be a problem if left at that, but because they are published in such limited quantities, they are very difficult to replace.

FWIW, we use Tattle-Tag, so books can't get out unless they are checked out.

[blondeatlast]

5. Librarians did toss that around a while, but it doesn't appear to be the c

The Religious Righties tend to be a lot less stealthy--in fact, they don't hide their organized campaigns.

Still not discounting the possibility, I just don't think it's so.

Help me out, gang--this has been under my skin for a while.

Don't ask me why it took so long to think of DU--I know someone can help, even if they can't explain it.

[roughsatori]

2. Next you will be burning us at the stake!!!!

Just kidding, I am not Wiccan and don't have a clue as to why the books are being stolen.

[MoonAndSun]

4. Here's my theory, blondeatlast....

I think that these books may be disappearing not because the people who enjoy these books keep them, but because they are taken away by people who think these books are "satanic" or "blasphemous", in other words, the fundies who probably burn these books and think they are doing God's work.

I'm not Wiccan, but I have a respect for their practices.

And did you get my PM yesterday? :hi:

[blondeatlast]

6. You weighed in the same time as the first post . . .

again, it doesn't appear to be the case (again, Bibles tend to disappear a lot too).

Got your PM, will reply soon.

[Darth_Kitten]

9. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wiccans don't believe in satan.

The fundies should read up more on the subject. :)

[blondeatlast]

12. Besides, Satanism is sheled in the 133s.

Parapsychology and the Occult (it's Dewey, I don't even try to make sense of his thinking).

On edit:

Satanism is shelVed in the 133s, too.

[Darth_Kitten]

8. You know, I noticed that in our library

I'm not a wiccan but I do have an interest in subjects that are a little "different" :) and I noticed that a lot of books in this section of the library are always **lost**

Very interesting....

[blondeatlast]

11. It's really bad when I am asked by a patron why there aren't more

Wiccan books! We buy, Lord (I am a Christian, very, very liberal Christian) how we buy them, but I am trying to replace these on the average of 3-4 a week (based on request for specific titles).

Once I explain, most patrons are very nice and sympathetic, and wonder the same thing. But it is a bit embarrassing.

[SOteric]

13. Again, not a Wiccan, - but here's a thought:

Perhaps the books are borrowed by non-Wiccans out of curiousity, and likely by young/immature followers of popular television shows like 'Charmed' etc.

When the books are found to be interesting, they have a hard time letting go. But parents, especially Conservative Christian parents, may be reluctant to let a young person purchase and keep books on this subject. Thus the 5-fingered discount.

Even if parents are not the issue, there are persons who might feel it would be detrimental to their public image to be seen or known to purchase such works. As unfortunate as it is, being seen as a Wiccan may not be the best possible way to advance a career in Southern politics, for example. VooDoo, yes; Wicca, no.

[blondeatlast]

15. Interesting--could be.

nm

[LWolf]

14. In my limited experience,

(8 years running a school library)...

a couple of reasons come to mind.

1. Christians removing books they believe to be Satanic. (It doesn't matter how many times you tell them that wiccans etc. don't believe in satan).

This would not be a blatant campaign. The idea is to remove access and to strain the replacement budget until the library gives up.

2. Other "wanna-be" patrons believing that they will suddenly become buffy or one of those charmed women if they just keep reading the books.

When you say lost, do you mean stolen, or checked out and not returned?

[blondeatlast]

16. Checked out and not returned--

sent for collection (yes, gang, our library uses a collection agency!), you name it.

[northofdenali]

17. I've discussed the same subject with my favorite librarian -

who used to head up the library at a local high school.

She says it was the same at the high school - books on Wicca, Paganism, and other "alternative" spiritual areas just couldn't be held onto. She attributed it to very curious teenagers. I don't know why they wouldn't be returned - here there are no late fees except videos, cds and dvds. But she believes the kids take them out, probably pass them around to friends, lose them, whatever.

I can see the logic behind her argument - my favorite book shop also loses a lot of books on the same subjects through shoplifting.

[blondeatlast]

18. You're right, and I'm red in the face . . .

It is virtually all the 299 classification.


(Looking for dying of embarassment icon, not finding) Shame on me . . .!

[blondeatlast]

19. Dewey 299

This classification has been a burr in the behind of librarians for eons. Classifications 200-290 covers virtually all aspects of Christianity, while virtually every other spiritual belief is crammed into the 290s. Nature-based religions are crammed further still into the 299s--and anything else that may come along in the future will get crammed into it too. It makes cataloging a nightmare, but it is what we are stuck with for now.

[MountainLaurel]

34. Glad it's just not me

I'm in a master's program in library and information science, and am currently doing a collection development project on pagan parenting materials. (Since most parenting books work under the assumption that the reader is a middle-class, white, heterosexual Christian couple, I thought it might be nice to get a different perspective.)

In analyzing the Dewey system to find the likely places for such books (and as an Earth-based faith kind of gal), I was highly pissed to find all of the non-Christian materials squeezed into such a small subcategory. At least I now know that it just wasn't my pagan roots showing, that others notice it. (Likewise, I'd like ot picket the big book stores for including only materials on Judeo-Christian religion in the Religion section, and leaving everyone else to the New Age section.

But, in answer to your question, I'd think it's very likely that here it's just teens and newbies who don't feel comfortable buying the books, so they swipe them. (Though I've seen a lot of the "fundies losing such books on purpose knowing the library can't afford to replace them" disappearances as well.)

[Code_Name_D]

43. Off the subject: Never been impressed by Dewey Decmal.

I remeber in grade school being shown a lot of "praganda" films on the "genuses" of the Dewey Decmal system. The encpleadea methed of orgnising subject by albetical order makes more sense, then catalog to books to the appropret shelf.

Besides, the computer makes even that approch irrelivent.

[Mountainman]

20. I go with the idea that it is a censorship attempt

Being a Wiccan means understanding and living a certain code of ethics. These ethics are based in a kinship with all things and beings. We believe that we must weigh our actions in relation to the good of all as far as we are able to.

American Wicca University


It doesn't make sense for a Wiccan to steal a book about Wicca since it is not in the interest of the good of all.

Of course there are many people who are not Wiccans and want to become Wiccan.

If a kid took the book out and brought it home and the parents were fundies I could see them throwing it in the trash. I can also see fundies taking them from the library shelves.
Some freepers have encouraged others to destroy any liberal books they see in the library and to make sure the wing nut books get added.

I just don't see Wiccans stealing books.

[Runesong]

21. Missing books

Please do not misunderstand me: I am making no excuses for this theivery and lack of ethics.

I run a small new age shop in central Massachusetts, and have observed the same trend for several decades. There may be many reasons for this phenomena.

- People tend to hang on to these books and find them invaluable as reference material.

- As you stated, the books seem to be hard to come by, and irreplaceable. (this is not really true) *

- Young teens have a hard time buying these books, because of parental disapproval.

- There is a stigma attached, sometimes it seems easier just to stuff the book in their trenchcoat.

- Certain "Christians" take it upon themselves to censor the library's content by removing offending material from circulation, one way or another.

What I would suggest is posting notices in the "occult" area of your library, explaining the problem, stressing how it affects others, and appealing to their good natures. Also stress your privacy policy. You might be surprised. I think the majority of people taking these books out are afraid that they are being watched or might suffer some repercussions from parents, clergy, even government.

I beleive the majority of your problem are from teens desperately seeking an authentic spirituality, and have all kinds of flakey reasons and conspiracy theories "why not to return library books." If you appeal to them respectfully, with a reminder of basic ethics, I think they will respond.

* Check out the following suppliers for replacement books and more recent/relevant titles: I think you'll find what you are looking for.

http://www.llewellyn.com
http://www.newleaf-dist.com

[blondeatlast]

22. Great info, and you should know!

We use both resources quite often, especially Llewellyn (Collection Development manager/my boss is an herbalist). We purchase almost all of our materials through Baker and Taylor since we can outsource many tasks to them).

The City council and Library Advisory Board would have apoplexy if we posted signs like that, and we do have to be cognizant of them! Still, we are actively pursuing teen patrons; our main branch has a 5,000sq foot enclosed area just for them, with music, internet, video and snacks. On a more one-on-one basis we might be able to do that.

You also may be onto something with the "privacy" thing. While the books pretty much checked out (I started as a library page, I know the tricks) because of tattle-tape, I don't think most people are aware, especially now, that libraries are holding firm against releasing patron's reading lists to law enforcement. We even have parents who request these--sorry, we are under no obligation whatsoever to release them to anyone, and we don't.

About replacement: the prob;em for us is that these materials don't generally stay in print long, and for numerous reasons, we can't go to the OP market; I wish we could.

[blondeatlast]

23. You have given me a great idea, though . . .

Our "Friends of the Library" shop changed managers about a year ago. The former manager, a great friend and wonderful woman, was Wiccan and always had a great supply of the 299s (Alternative Religions). We still had the loss problem then, but that may be a way to curb some of it, especially if the teens know they can get them there.

Come to think of it, they no longer stiock the GED books either . . .

I really believe you are onto something.

Thanks much, and
:toast:
Welcome to DU!!!

And my thread was your first post!
:toast:

[Runesong]

24. Thanks!

My consulting fee is $16,595.02 :)

[blondeatlast]

25. Take checks?

Poppy set me up this bank account in Barbados, see . . .

[Runesong]

26. Send me the monetary equivelant of wisdom

and we'll call it even :)

[blondeatlast]

29. Well,

IOU then! ;)

[LeftCoast]

27. Let me be the token Wiccan then

:)

My first inclination on reading this thread was to suggest that it was RW Christians removing the books in an effort to "protect society". I have heard of this happening in some areas, but not a lot so I'm not sure that's the explanation.

Wiccans have a simple code of ethics called the Wiccan Rede. It is an all encompasing 10 Commandments, if you will. "An it harm none, do what ye will." In this instance, stealing harms, so you shouldn't do it. Of course, Wiccans are just like everyone else, and we don't always do the right thing. For the most part, these are probably young people just not thinking about the greater harm.

[blondeatlast]

28. Thanks.

I am beginning to believe that it is curious young people, who, forever reason, may be unable or even embarassed to return these materials. I am aware of the Rede which is why I didn't ever think it could be deliberate (unless sabotage), to me the Rede is just as common sense when it comes to behavior as the big 10 (I am a Christian).

Now, if we sould only get out the word that these things are nearly impossible to replace for a library; we can't use the OP book market as I've mentioned before . . .

Having worked my way up from a page/circulation attendant, I can assure anyone that we don't pay any attention to what you check in or out (no time!), but I remember being thirteen, too! I was curious about Wicca then, but I didn't have any trepidation about what I read, even though I grew up in a small town.

Buying tampons, though, that was another matter entirely . . .

:toast: to your wisdom; may it reign and rain!

[salmonhorse]

30. "creative" ignorance is the very hardest to stem ~

http://www.lauriecabot.com

For books...and things...

[inthecorneroverhere]

31. privacy idea

Speaking of patrons who are 'embarrassed' to return books...

Do you have posters and stuff from the ALA, especially ones that display the ALA logo, around the library? Also, do you do 'Banned Books Week' or 'Free Speech Week'? where you feature censored and banned authors - could be many possibilities such as James Joyce, some of the Wiccan authors, Solzhenitsyn, Anne Frank - many many many possibilities.

I am aware that you can't directly tell the patrons what your policies on record-keeping are.

The reason that I ask that is that a lot of folks in the ALA have adopted policies of keeping patron records for only a very short time, i.e. the record is kept when the patron checks out the book until it is returned. Then, once the book is returned, the computer deep-sixes the record that the patron ever checked out that book. I hope that your library does not keep patron records, unless they have overdue books or interlibrary loan requests etc. i.e. legitimate reasons to keep the records.

Of course, those who check books out and don't return them have to have their records kept in the library system for as long as it takes for the books to get returned. :evilgrin:

I don't know if this would get through to a 13-year old's mind, but it might sink in with 19-year olds....

[amazona]

32. from a former dabbler

I do think a certain amount of the books are being stolen by self-appointed nanny fundamentalists.

However, much as I hate to say this, there is a big problem in the Wicca community with people who are just plain deadbeats. I am trying to think of a more tactful way to put it...but can't think how right now. One of the reasons I've fallen away from pagan practice is the high numbers of rip-off artists who seem to be able to justify theft to themselves. They don't just steal from libraries, they steal from friends and family. I'm not sure why this is, and it frustrates me.

[alaine]

33. I'd add to this that among teenagers the Wicca or occult

and anarchy movements tend to intersect. So you may have anarchist Wiccans or dabblers in the occult taking the books. It's disappointing to me. I practiced Wicca seriously for a while over 10 years ago and the thing that even the most casual wiccans hear over and over again is some version of the so-called "Wiccan Rede" ( the autheticity of which, I have read, is dubious at best) that what you give out comes back to you in some form, and many axims have it coming back three times. Once a spell is cast, it is bound by saying among other things "to DO NO HARM nor return on me...". The do no harm tenet is foremost among wiccans, it is one of the first things, if not the first thing, that you learn. This is a strange problem; I don't even want to offer an opinion on whether fundies are doing it. The only thing I can add is that my town passed laws where you only have a certain amount of time to get the books back, if you don't they come get ya and take you to the police station. Of course you have a million chances before this happens, but the end result is a misdemeanor theft charge. Do you have this law in your state?

[LeftCoast]

35. I'm not sure what you mean when talking of the authenticity of the Rede

Though the vast majority of Wiccans chose to attempt to live their lives by it, does it have no moral authenticity if it wasn't written down some place in the dawn of history? I honestly don't know where it came from. It'd be great if it could be traced back through an oral history, but it really doesn't matter. I try to follow the Rede because it makes sense to me. It's "authenticity" isn't really an issue.

[alaine]

36. That particular saying, I have read, comes from the

rebirth of paganism in England. There is a figurehead, an icon of that movement, whose name I can't remember, who is supposed to have written it. One odd thing I meant to include in the post is that a couple of years ago I heard a very conservative friend with zero exposure to Wicca tell someone that "if you do something wrong it will come back on you three times". That was in the south, too, way out in the country. I have really appreciated reading Zsuzsanna Budapest's view on this saying, ( the writing I am referring to is in "The Grandmother of Time") where she talks about how it makes wiccans too hesitant to cast certain spells because of the three times rule, and that wiccans can use their power to do good, without invoking harm on themselves. (The situation she was referring to was where she got a coven together to cast a spell on a rapist, so that he would be caught.) I apologize if I offended you.

[LeftCoast]

38. No offense taken

The person you're thinking of is Gerald Gardner.

In regard to hesitation in casting certain spells. If you have to hesitate...you probably shouldn't do it. :)

I look at it this way. We've got the Rede, which says, basically, do your thing as long as it doesn't cause harm. It's not just saying this because it's a nicer way to live, but because if you DO harm, it's going to come back and smack you on the ass. :)

[blondeatlast]

41. No, but we do have a very effective collection agency!

We get a lot of calls from people who "failed" to return books several years earlier and are shocked to find out it's

a) either on their credit report (this especially happens with college loan applicants and first time homebuyers!)

or b) the ca has contacted them about a library book?!

The point about anarchists is timely; there is an "anarchist" group that thinks that they have found a sure-fire way to get their books placed in libraries. Of course by now libraries are onto them (no, I won't go into any details) so their requests are of course considered, but we are now requesting that they submit review citations (which we do also for vanity press and self-published authors who send requests for their own books to be placed).

The more I hear, the more I think it is just young adults (and the anarchy thing tends to reinforce that). If only they knew that when they get older (and wise enough to go to college) that it would come back to bite them in the ass.

on edit veRy

[REP]

37. I Vote for Posers and Outraged Christians

It's either or both: posers who want to be different and think pretending to be Pagan means they'll get laid (I could go on at length about those annoying wannabes who call themselves Summer Eve and Breaking Wynd) and self-appointed morality morons who are removing evil from the library. A very few might be lost by practioners who object to some particularly silly piece of shit.

[aneerkoinos]

39. Funny

When I was working at a university student library, number 1 and 2 "steeling faculties" were Theology and Law...

Go figure :D

[newyawker99]

40. Hi Runesong!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[blondeatlast]

42. Bibles seem to have legs as well . . .

Not nearly to the extent the aforementioned Dewey 299s do, but many still just don't seem to come back.

And it should come as no surprise that the Satanist's Bible rarely circs more than once.

on edit: No implications are intended here. I am well aware that Wiccans rarely believe or worship Satan.