Classists stigmas:Things middle class people won't do

[Nikia]

I was thinking about the thread about trailers today. I didn't want to spoil the trailer love by interjecting my poor but elitist background. We barely had enough to eat in my early childhood and both my parents ran out of gas several times, but they were from "good families" so there are some things that they would never do. They would never live in a trailer and they would never shop at second hand stores or the cheap grocery store even though it would have been in their best economic interests. It made me think of other incidences of the snobbishness of other middle class and above people even when they are down on their luck. For example, I encountered people in college who would never shop at any discount store. Then there are college graduates who have trouble getting jobs in their field, but refuse to work in manufacturing (hands on entry level) because of their own classicist predjudice even though they might make more than working at a department or specialty store that they choose to work at instead.

[catzies]

1. You hit all the ones I could think of off the top of my head

But I'll tell you a story that happened here in the office. We're a family-owned business and there are 2 types of people here: family and furniture. The family are the owners (rich) and they consider everyone who works for them (the rest of us) as part of the furniture. We're being passed down to the 3rd generation now.

Anyway. Someone in the office was contemplating a home remodel recently, and was considering getting wood floors to replace her carpeting and prior to making her decision, inquired about the best way to clean them . So she asked the boss' daughter who has wood floors in her house, "How do you keep them clean?" Her answer: "I don't know, that's my housekeeper's problem."

[libhill]

5. Sounds like

a good little Republican.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

14. They sound Exactly

like the people I worked for in Florida. And yes, Rupugs, too.

[jedicord]

2. Go out without makeup

I guess I could be considered "middle class". My friends at work don't recognize me on the weekend, and my social friends don't recognize me during the week. At work I wear a dress, make up, and wear my hair down. At home I wear jeans or shorts, no make up, and old t-shirts, even if I go out of the house to a public place. I frankly don't care what people think of the way I look.

I've noticed how many women go grocery stores, gardening stores, etc. in skirts, make up and styled hair.

About the trailer thread, I missed that. My house backs up to a country road, although I live in a fairly large subdivision. Some people live in a trailer right behind me. A real estate agent told my neighbors that it would be difficult to get a good price on their house because of that trailer. My point of view is that I have a 10 foot back fence that doesn't connect to another backyard, the people who live there keep their lot looking nice, the drive on the road to the freeway is peaceful and beautiful. Who cares if there's a trailer?

[dryan]

3. I guess it depends...

on what part of the country you live in. Here in Florida, it is not uncommon for even well-off people to live in Mobile Homes. There are whole developments of them.

I sell Avon Cosmetics and do quite well. I have girlfriends that won't buy from me because they say that Avon is too cheap.

PS - I never go to the store without lipstick!

[dryan]

4. Another anecdote....

I am a member of a union (AFSCME). I also like to dress nicely for work and I am a clothesholic. This seems to amaze people that I am both a lady and a bona fide died in the wool union member. Many people in trades make in the $80,000 and $90,000 salary range!

[libhill]

7. This is true -

I once knew a guy with a Ph.d who went to work as a laborer on my constuction site, because it was the only work he could find. I've known highschool dropouts who made more money in a week, than I do in a month. All things are relative, and you should never judge a book by its cover.

[Pithlet]

15. Exactly

My father graduated high school, but didn't go to college and served in the Air force. He got a job skilled trade for GM 26 years ago, and continues to work for them to this day making more money than most people I know. He's about to retire comfortably in less than 5 years, and he's only 51 years old. In these times, that is becoming a rarity.

[jedicord]

6. Lipstick I can see...

But these women are in full make up - foundation, blush, mascara, et al. I guess I do too much gardening to fool with all that just to take it off when I got home.

[Nikia]

9. This came up in my anxiety support group

One of the members, who was in her mid twenties, was going to conquer her greatest fear about other people judging her and go to the store without make up. I had a hard time not laughing.

[Speck Tater]

8. With income usually on the high side of average

I bought a lot of stuff at second hand stores.

Now living on the low side of average I still depend on the Goodwill and St. Vinnies for useful bargains. To do otherwise is just foolish.

[Union Thug]

10. I'll NEVER understand this..

Financially, I'm better off than ever before. But I refuse to shop at upscale variants of any kind of store.

I think we are talking about more than 'classist' behavior - we are talking about market victimization. People allow the advertisers and the marketing directors determine their shopping preferences. Yuck.

[Pithlet]

17. I think it's also a form of insecurity

I think some people are more vulnerable to it because they don't feel they have the goods to back up a positive image on their own, so they rely on brand name appeal. Anyone who looks at you and think you're a better person because you're wearing Prada is an idiot. Why would anyone want to try to impress someone like that? I can understand buying good quality products, and I appreciate quality and luxury. But those who turn up their noses at anything less than designer are pitiful.

[pagerbear]

31. I don't see the point in paying $25

for a pair of underwear (unless Screaming Lord Byron has already worn them--then $25 is a bargain!)

[kitkatrose]

39. I don't do upscale stores.

Using my pathetic partime paycheck on ONE shirt is stupid. Hell, I could make them if I wanted, and if I knew how to sew. Yes I get my clothes at Target and TJ Maxx and Marshall's, etc. I like to think I'm being smart. :)

People allow the advertisers and the marketing directors determine their shopping preferences. Yuck.

Truer words were never spoken. I also think that applies to everything; cars, houses, cooking, whatever.

[Nay]

11. Stigmas: How about one that is both classist and racist?

Years ago, my college boyfriend's sister married this guy who, as a dyed-in-the-wool southerner and gentrified type, would not eat Moon Pies or drink RC Cola, because that's what "low-class and black people" eat and drink. I was floored.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

16. that's my favorite snack!

[scarlet_owl]

19. Mine too!

I haven't had an RC and a Moon Pie for ages! Well, better go hit the treadmill.

[pagerbear]

32. Yummy!

Too bad I gave up recreational sugar....

[Sequoia]

43. Oh my God, I ate those!

Moon Pies and RC Cola, well actually Coca-Cola and WISE Potato Chips!

[Carson]

46. A true Southerner

puts peanuts into his/her RC cola. ;-)

[SoCalDem]

12. I have never set foot inside a Nordstroms...

"Middle class" is a state of mind..I cannot honestly think of anything that I "would not do".. Over my 55 yrs, I pretty much HAVE done it all :)

I have no problem shopping for discounts..2nd hand stores are just fine with me..(except for appliances...there's a REASON they are there)

I have done "menial labor"...I have been management..

Menial is almost "better", in that when you go home, your "work" does not follow you :) (If only it paid better )

[Interrobang]

13. Wear black shoes after Victoria Day, or white shoes after Labour Day?

My mother's a bear for that one -- I've seen her wear black shoes with outfits that black shoes just don't work with, simply because it was the middle of winter and she couldn't possibly wear white shoes, even with a "winter white" outfit.

My mom's also got this weird thing about "dressing up" in certain (inappropriate) circumstances, but she doesn't really understand how to really dress up, so she just winds up looking like a poseur. I can remember being forbidden to wear jeans to school trips to theatre performances, because "No one wears jeans to the theatre! People are going to be in nice dresses!" (I think not.)

She also leaves the labels on things (like the Mikasa wine glasses), for long after they should have been taken off, as though having a Mikasa label on something will impress someone.

I interpret this as being the result of her growing up in a working-class family who had aspirations that their children should grow up and join the "professional" class. Imagine what they must think of me -- I'm educated and obviously middle-class in many ways, but my lifestyle is almost totally (and permanently, due to income) proletarian.

[Red State Rebel]

36. I'm with you on this one!!!

Only here it was no white shoes before Memorial Day or after Labor Day. Anymore, everyone says it doesn't make a difference, but I just can't bring myself to do it.

[Speck Tater]

41. I had a friend who used to freeze her ass off

because she would not wear a coat or jacket before some mystical clendar date that was the "accepted" date for wearing a coat or jacket. Problem is, she was living a long ways north of where she had been raised and she brought her silly notions with her from the warm south to the cold north where they were no where near appropriate.

Yet there she was, an intellgient woman in her fifties, freezing her ass off in the fall because she could not bring herself to violate that rule. Insane!

[daligirrl]

18. This is definitely a Black classist thing but. . .

My grandparents were fanatical about not eating fried chicken or watermelon in public.

[scarlet_owl]

20. please delete

sorry about that.

[scarlet_owl]

21. That kind of attitude drives me crazy.

I live in a manufactured home in a land-lease community (trailer park). I only buy clothes at Goodwill and I shop regularly at dollar stores. We probably aren't quite middle class, but we are better off than lots of folks. My sister would never go into Goodwill with me. She was too embarassed. Now that she's poor and my parents aren't supporting her anymore, it's looking pretty good. Let the rich folks get their clothes at Famous-Barr and such. I'll just buy 'em up for $2.50 when they give them away to Goodwill.

[cally]

22. My Mom is very upset when I buy stuff from second hand stores

She grew up embarrassed by her clothes and poverty. I didn't quite get this until I bought a very cool dress at a second hand store for my 5 year HS reunion. My Mom was appalled and I finally realized how much it mattered to her. As a kid, she always made sure to cut my sandwiches because her own Mom tore hers and it embarrassed her. My Mom always bought me new clothes so I never went to school in hand me downs. I have a different perspective but I'm learning to understand hers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I have a Ph. D. but when I was unemployed, I worked as an

industrial temp. It was almost as educational as the Ph.D.

I had a friend once who had worked her way up from an unambitious blue collar family and had earned a graduate degree. She would not do anything that seemed the least bit "blue collar" to her: ride the bus, eat at a food court (even though there were some good ethnic stands in the local food courts), go to a thrift store, or go anywhere without being dressed in expensive clothes and fully made up. It was as if she was trying to convince people that she had grown up in a wealthy family.

What she didn't know was that many extremely wealthy people make a point of being unpretentious and often go around looking like complete slobs.

[kodi]

24. piss in a kitchen sink?

noticed something like that at a dead show years ago. this group of dilettante, cornfed, blow-dried yuppies were standing in this huge line to use the toilets and some of us working class stiffs just walked on by and used the bathroom sinks as urinals. yes those yuppies were disgusted, and i hope that all got kidney stones from waiting in line too.

of course, we rinsed the sink after use, we were not animals, after all.

[Sabriel]

25. I grew up middle class, with two exteeeeemely cheap parents.

When my sister and I get together, we have garage sale anecdotes to trade, about who got the better steal. In fact, as I look at my kids' clothes, they're all Gap, ON, Hanna, etc., but they're all secondhand. The only thing new is a pair of shoes each. I'm a little worried that as the kids grow older, they won't like yard saling anymore. I refuse to pay full price for that stuff. Let someone else do it.

[dryan]

26. I love thrift shops....

I grew up in Winter Park, Florida which is in the same mileu as Beverly Hills, California. A lot of my classmates were debutantes with names that you would recognize (Dupont for instance). I attended Winter Park High School which was and is considered one of the finest public high schools in the country. My mom was a single mother who supported my brother and I by working during the day as the manager of a drycleaners (don't get excited, she made about $4.00 an hour -- with no benefits), she had a second job as a cocktail waitress on the weekends, and she also did sewing and alterations. Our house was immaculate. My mom made it beautiful with slipcovers and draperies she made. We never went hungry although she may only eat meat about once a month. Despite our finances I never thought we were poor. My classmates families were just broke at a higher level. It as a big deal for us to go to the Salvation Army! I still shop there.

Recently I competed in Ft. Lauderdale at the 85th Annual Business & Professional Women's Individual Development Speaking Competition. This is a big deal folks--there were 30 women from all over the country. I had alrady won at the club, district, and state level. For my first speech I wore a beautiful Jones of New York suit that everyone raved about. I bought it at a garage sale about 15 years ago for $10.00.

You see the way I look at it is this...what are antiques but second hand furniture!

[Sequoia]

44. What a great story!

And all that raving over a $10 suit. You rock, and congratulations!

[LWolf]

27. Well, none of those things are unknown to me.

But I don't come from the middle class. I come from the working poor.

The stigma in my family was charity. You made your own living, and if there wasn't enough to go around, you did without. But you never accepted charity of any kind.

[ZenLefty]

28. Don't forget laundromats

Met someone who refused to be seen in one. :eyes:

[regularguy]

29. Avoidance of things "public".

Public pools, public transportation, public schools, parks, etc. Simple fear of others, usually justified with wildly exaggerated fears of crime and mayhem. That this has become more of a mainstream (rather than elitist) view is in my opinion the main reason why said public institutions are largely on the decline.

[patcox2]

30. Silly middle class insecurities. Its more defensive than offensive.

I highly recomend the book "Class" by Paul Fussel, its hilarious and right on in its observations, though he is somewhat class bound to his own class, the academics; he gets parochial there. Combine it with The Preppy Handbook, which is also very very accurate.

Most of what you describe is the result of insecurity, as much as snobbery. And insecurity is itself a trait of the middle class, they fear losing status.

All is not what it seems in these class traits. For example, true wasp bluebloods tend to be very cheap; they avoid labels and name brands in many cases. You can know them by what they stock in their bar, box wine, big 1.75 liter plastic bottles of second tier gin and scotch, store brand tonic water. They often drive very old station wagons and suburbans. They wear their khakies and button downs until they are falling apart. The whole point of the prep "style," in fact, is that it is not a style, it never changes, so you can wear the same clothing forever.

Classist? whats that? Class consciousness is the first step in liberation; are you calling people who "beleive" in social classes classist, or people who desire and approve of social classes classist? Or are people who display the traits of their received class classist? Social class exists, so I don't see any need to label people who "beleive" in social classes. I personally don't feel its a meaningful thing to approve or disapprove of social classes, they are an attibrute of humanity as much as arms or legs; if you were able to abolish the existing 'social order" as its sometimes called, a new one would spring up in its place.

Ironically those who loftily consider themselves "above" social classes are themselves a type of snob, they are setting up an alternate class system, which puts those who are "free" from such "outdated constraints" (notice how many value judgments are being made here?) above those "classists," (a new pejorative to identify the new lower class). Even among progressives their are snobs who try to define the group of those like them, and exclude the group of those not like them. being part of a group, defining the group through shared behaviors and beleifs, and using those markers to exclude non-members of the group, appears to be part of our genetic makeup, perhaps a relic of the time when we most likely lived in bands like apes.

My own experience may be atypical; my parents were manual laborers, my mother was a migrant farmworker who picked cotton with her whole family at 10 years old. But I have two advanced degrees, which puts me in one type of upper middle definition, the "academic," and one of them is a traditional profession, which is generally a marker of high-middle, bourgeois, climbing and striving. It means nothing to me. I do, however, find it useful to know the norms of the different classes so that I am not limited, so that I can gain entre to and communicate with members of all classes. Despite having "risen" through american class structure, I live by what my parents taught me, that noone is better than me, but I am not better than anyone else either.

I do have several beleifs and habits which are probably class markers, which others might think "snobby," though I think of them more as a refusal to be a sap and a desire to have a little dignity. I never leave the house without a shirt with a collar, at minimum. I would never, ever wear "legible clothing," clothing with slogans, logos, and especially brand names. I really am snobby about "attention getting" behavior and attributes, thats why I do look down on those who wear slogans, jokes, and dirty pictures on their clothing.

The biggest divide I have seen between our culture and most europeans I have met,is this "attention getting" behavior so many americans display, the desire to be a spectacle, to shock, to be a clown. Like the idiots who jump up and down behind the reporter on the news, or who gather outside the "Good morning america" window, or beg to be picked on "the price is right." Ughhh. Watch a group of americans overseas wandering around, its embarrassing. I prefer to choose who I will share my opinions with, just as I wish many of those I disagree with would choose not to share their opinions with me. I do not want to be surrounded by people with "jesus saves" on their shirts, and therefore I avoid hypocracy by refraining from wearing my beleifs on my sleave. As far as brand names, that to me is the height of degradation, to announce to the world that you paid more than you should for a product because you harbor some primitive, totemic beleif that the "brand" will bestow status and success on you. Its why I don't have a sig line or a picture or anything. My message is my message, its what I say, not some icon, brand, totem, symbol, that I have chosen to represent me. When I travel I see a dignity in those cultures where even laborers and "peasants" wear suits when they go out of the house, and I pattern my behavior after these people more than I do on what most people would consider "upper class" people.

[pagerbear]

34. Excellent post

You bring to mind two things.

First, a book called The Branding of America. Can't remember the author's name and have only heard about it through radio interviews and reading reviews, but it talks more about the ideas about brand names you mention.

Second, an article that appeared in The Nation some time in the spring, I think, written by a man who had grown up in a working class household and had been educated at so-called prestigious universities and worked in academia (I think) and journalism. He had some interesting observations about the differences in attitudes and behaviors he observed between the people he knew from his working-class background and those he met who had more privileged backgrounds. Especially the difference in a sense of entitlement and the difference in deference toward authority.

[patcox2]

40. You are making me think.

I find it easy to see differences in what the classes eat and drink, how they dress, what they drive, how they talk, mostly matters of style.

I find it much harder to discern recognizable patterns when it comes to political or other beleifs, deeper things like that.

However, there is one thing I have noticed. Those who would be called "middle" or "upper middle" are, in my opinion, more likely to be much more caught up in their work, they are the "company man," the kind who actually love the corporation they work for, take pride in putting in the extra hours and all that. They identify themselves by their job or profession and are much more likely to neglect family and personal life.

"Lowers," to use a term I wouldn't, tend in my experience to be more rebellious when it comes to their work, likely to call in sick to go four-wheeling, hunting, or fishing, and to be openly contemptuous of their job, putting more value in their personal life. On the other hand, these same people are less rebellious when it comes to other authority figures, more likely to define patriotism as supporting who is in office, more respectful of authority.

I think I may be a Lower in attitude, stuck in an Upper profession; I have a redneck's or an auto-workers (if Rivethead was true) attitude toward my profession, i.e., "this is bullshit, I'm not breaking my back for these assholes," yet I wear a suit and tie and speak polysyllabically in oh so refined english all day. And I despise my pretentious colleagues for their submission to the system.

[pagerbear]

47. Interesting

The acts of rebellion you mention are private acts--while it is very likely true working-class people are more likely to be openly contemptuous of their jobs among their peers, the writer of the article I mention (about educated/"successful" children from working-class backgrounds) suggested they might be less likely to show open rebellion at work. Less likely to feel safe questioning the judgment of management, for example. As if management were doing them a favor by keeping them employed. (An attitude encouraged by management, of course.)

The comparison with feeling less safe questioning governmental authority is quite valid!

[Aristus]

33. It depends upon a lot of things.

For example: I will never, EVER, shop at Wal-Mart, but I have frequently shopped at a local cut-rate, cash-only grocery store. The reason: the latter is a locally owned small business. The huge, soul-sucking Megacorporation doesn't need my money.

[pagerbear]

35. I won't eat walking down the street or on public transportation

...but I don't know if that comes from my history of obesity and intense body shame or if it's a "class" thing. Could be both.

[noonwitch]

37. My mom won't shop at Meijer/K-Mart/Walmart

I won't shop at Walmart, for many reasons beyond snobbery, but I will go to Meijer, K-Mart or Target. My mom is a total, social-climbing, middle class woman. When we were kids, our clothes all came from Hudson's, sometimes Penney's, but my mom decided they were getting too much like K-Mart. My mom would always complain about Meijer-"Everytime I shop there I get stuck in line behind someone trying to buy beer or cigarettes with food stamps". We basically only went there to buy donuts and school supplies, or with my dad, who isn't a snob (he grew up poor).

My mom was always very critical of people on welfare, although she isn't so much now. Now, she has to prove to everyone how liberal she is, plus, there aren't that many people on welfare anymore. She was a nurse at a doctor's office before she retired and once told us that they made medicaid patients wait longer than those with their own insurance. I told her that was deplorable-if your office gets paid anyways, why should you be discriminating? She responded that welfare patients were always late (duh-they don't have cars) and that the state never paid them in a timely manner.

[amazona]

38. refuse to work in manufacturing or no jobs in manufacturing ?

There simply aren't entry level jobs in manufacturing, at least not in my area, without tons and tons of connections. Good union jobs are hard to come by. For instance, a friend's dad worked for a big chemical plant -- union job, all the benefits. He couldn't even get a position at any level for his own son at the place. His own son! I took another friend to a job event for a chemical plant -- hundreds upon hundreds of people applying for 2 openings -- he had no shot. My friend was already car-less and dead broke. Most applying for the position had fancy trucks, SUVs, etc -- middle class by any measure and desperate to remain so.

[BigMcLargehuge]

42. it's not a question of snobbishness

it's a question of pride and self esteem. I too came from a low end of the economic ladder childhood, and also had a mom and dad who refused second hand stuff, shopped at the expensive grocery store, etc...

It was a pride thing. My parents worked their asses off, and didn't want to FEEL that they were working so hard and unable to offer "the best" to their kids, even it if "the best" meant less all around.

[Elidor]

45. The Uniform

I used to work in a warehouse where jeans and company polos were acceptable. One day the boss decided to "reward" all my hard work with a brown industrial uniform. He was actually paying a company to deliver and launder these god-awful things and even though I made me distaste clear, he insisted I wear them. Just going out in public in that getup was beyond me. I started packing my lunch. I HATED that uniform. There's no shame in being blue-collar, but there is considerable shame in being forced to dress in awful clothes.

Don't make your employees dress up like monkeys. It's a morale-killer.

[Courtesy Flush]

49. It's worse with the new generation

Young adults today are incredibly materialistic. I see so many young families living in homes they can't afford, and driving cars they can't afford.

I'm 45 years old. My wife and I started our life together in a trailer. We could afford an apartment, but the trailer was more sensible. We paid it off in a few years, then lived almost rent free for years afterward. We saved enough to buy our house.

Today, I could buy a Lexus without straining my budget, but why would I want to? I drive a ten-year-old Toyota, and I'm sure it'll last me several more years. Paid cash for it, second hand. We still live on half our income, because we've always placed a premium on security over luxury.

My 20-something cousin, on the other hand, has the best of everything. Well, HAD the best, before her house was foreclosed. She could never accept anything less than the best clothes, vehicles, home, everything. No discipline at all. (BTW: her parents picked up the tab every time she got in over her head.) From what I see, she's the rule these days -- not the exception.

What about the kids coming up now? They'll be worse. I hardly see a teenager who doesn't have a cell phone, and it seems no self-respecting teen would be seen dead in an older model car. What ever happened to getting an old jalopy for your first car?

I have no qualms about wearing WalMart clothes, and drinking Burger King coffee. On the few occasions I've bought gourmet cappuccino, latte, or whatever it's called, and I liked it, but felt I had wasted four bucks for a friggin' cup of coffee.

[worksux]

48. re: 2nd hand clothes r/o

in my neighborhood (N. Dallas) we have a shop called Clotheshorse Anonymous. I live in a very nice apartment in the area but the other zip codes by me are mansions and the trophy wives sell their old clothes there- well not that old a lot of them still have tags on them from the store.
I've bought some cute stuff there, and the women who go there are not ashamed to be in the store. It's the best of both worlds.