Grrrr my friend is going through an Ayn Rand phase

[Reverend_Smitty]

and its quite frustrating to discuss politics with her. Hopefully she will learn one day how incredibly selfish and destructive Objectivism is. We just have to focus on other things to talk about like our mutual love for waffles and other assorted breakfast foods.

At least she isn't voting for Bush, so there still is hope!

[Screaming Lord Byron]

1. How old is she?

[Reverend_Smitty]

2. just turned 20

thats why I am calling it a phase

[Screaming Lord Byron]

5. She'll likely grow out of it. Is she the pretentious type?

[Reverend_Smitty]

6. not really...shes more anti-establishment than anything else

[Screaming Lord Byron]

7. She'll probably be OK then.

Fingers crossed.

[Reverend_Smitty]

8. Thats what friends are for

I stand by them when they are led astray and try to help them back on the path of righteousness :)

[joeybee12]

3. Doesn't also realize that that crap is poorly written?

Great South Park episode where Police Officer Barbrady learns to read, and then gives it up after reading Ayn Rand!

[BurtWorm]

4. Objectivists are political Jehovah's Witnesses.

I wonder how she'd react if you told her that. (It's true, too. Once they enter that blck hole, a lot of them never come back out.)

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. Punch her a few times and see how objectivism can hold up.

[Fenris]

10. I had a philosophy professor once tell me that

If there is any philosophical school of thought that has been thoroughly discredited to the point of wholesale condemnation, it is Objectivism and its prophet Rand.

Most who read Rand realize quickly how absurd the ideas are. Most.

[Reverend_Smitty]

11. Thats why most of her readers are young people like my friend

with age and education most will come to realize how dumb that stuff is. Thats why I am confident my friend will come to her senses...I don't hang with dumb asses :P

[tigereye]

24. I went through it

and I'm okay. And then I went oh my god this woman is a fascist! A lot of people go through an Ayn Rand phase. It's part of learning to think for yourself.

[joeybee12]

13. Apparently Alan Greenspan is a follower...

...explains a lot!

[Fenris]

16. God, I forgot about that.

Nice to know you have someone in charge of the Fed that agrees with the Virtue of Selfishness.

[joeybee12]

21. Yeah, that's why we're so screwed!

[Kira]

12. What would you list

as the major beliefs an objectivist believes in? I can see liking the ideas of striving to be your best and to not depend on others to do hard work for you. It seems to me they don't believe in charity which is crazy to me.

[Reverend_Smitty]

14. I think being an independent person is important

but it is the selfishness that really angers me. I have similar feelings about existentialism as well

[Kira]

18. Yes I agree.

I think "Atlas Shrugged" can pull a person in because it is black and white. Either the people are beautiful and brilliant or they are ugly inside and out. They are lazy and crooked. The people who work hard succeed and the people who don't fail. But you can't look at the world like that because it isn't black and white.

Another compelling theme I think that draws people in is the idea that when you know you are right and people all around you are trying to tear you down, you need to believe in yourself. I do like that part. There are often people who are jealous of peoples strengths for whatever reason and they can try to be harmful to them.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

20. That all sounds a little too fascistic for my tastes.

Usually I'm trying to be less of an individual, not more. I'm unique enough as it is!

[southpaw]

15. My own flirtation with Rand/Objectivism was a pesky thing that died hard..

It's philosophically weak and poorly written, but those romantic characters (Howard Roark, Dominique Francon, Dagney Taggart, Hank Rearden, John Galt...) are appealing to young college students who want to believe in their ability to do things their own way in a world that demands conformity. Failure becomes a virtue when you are convinced that it is the result of the system keeping you down because they fear your staunch self-reliance.

Rand's philosophy is a classic case of overcorrection. She fled communism and ran to the extreme opposite end of the playing field...

[sui generis]

17. there are parts of the Rand philosophy I agree with though

not the stuff that makes the news however.

I like the rejection of the metaphysical and her epistemological points, as well as her opinion on esthetics.

Not so fond of her view of ethics, politics, and human nature, as those views seem rigid and out of touch with what we know of sociology, anthropology, and the development of human morality. I also think that she is consistently over-analyzed and possibly misrepresented.

Maybe your friend isn't buying the whole thing but just some parts that appeal to her.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

19. Closest I ever got to buying into the philosophy of a book

was Generation X.
Man, did I ever want to move to the desert with disinterested hot people and watch coyotes suck yuppie fat from garbage bags while vandalizing cars and obsessing about obscure minutae.
But I didn't. I was too apathetic.

[Reverend_Smitty]

22. I've never been sucked into a philosophy

that is a strict philosophy of any one person or group of people. Rather I like to read them all and pick out the parts that I like and disregard the rest.

[tigereye]

25. ah delightful contradictions

make the world go round. I was like that with Naked Lunch and On the Road and rocker tomes. Not exactly philosphical though, just self-destructive. But it balanced our my hyper-responsible streak well.

[regularguy]

23. I was a Rand-y in high school......

I really enjoyed "The Fountainhead" at the time. But Atlas Shrugged cured me...at some point I just threw the damn thing down and that was that. (Something about the virtues of stealing from the poor to give back to the rich...) The fact that she hates Jazz (I live for it) helped.

[bookfreak]

26. Many people go through the Randbot phase

I did it myself. It started with Atlas Shrugged and went from there. I read the books, I joined the online groups. After a while it all began to reek of religion to me...anytime I'd ask a question anybody didn't like or make some statement that didn't comply with the bible of Rand somebody would tell me to "check my premises". So much dogma..you can't question or disagree with Rand or you are a pariah..and I thought the whole purpose of philosophy was to question and examine!

Objectivism is not utterly devoid of good ideas, but it is fraught with bad ones. I do hope your friend will see through the quagmire.