The Big Huge Immigration LIE!

[K8-EEE]

When will somebody point out that the mega corps NEED A CONSTANT FLOW OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS...and that if they didn't, they wouldn't be coming here?

If every single illegal Mexican worker in CA stayed home tomorrow, every industry would come to a grinding halt. They are the barely-paid janitors, service people, factory workers, and agricultural workers no one would be unaffected if they could get it together to strike (of course they are all too broke, most don't even make minimum wage.)

Then the very people that profit off of it are all like, NO RIGHTS FOR ILLEGALS! They aren't LEGAL! And of course try to pit the legal unemployed against the exploited illegals.

I say if the freeper crowd really hates that we "have no control of our borders" etc they should boycott every store that employs them AND push for huge fines for businesses that employ them. But in their mind the employers are not at fault at all, only the workers.

The lie is that we can't control it -- the powers that be WANT AND NEED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

[Avalon Sparks]

1. You got that right!

-- the powers that be WANT AND NEED ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!


Otherwise the little dictator Bush* wouldn't be pushing for it.

[K8-EEE]

2. I wonder if one head of lettuce or tomato...

Is picked "legally..." if it was, we would all be paying $5 a head probably!

Of course *NAFTA* was going to fix the whole immigrant problem lol lol hahaha yeah right!

All the Mexican factories have packed up and gone to China!!

[toodles_oduff]

6. Add cheap meat to the mix.

Many slaugherhouse workers are illegals. Read "Fast Food Nation" and it fast becomes clear that things haven't progressed much past the horrors depicted in Sinclair's "The Jungle". And maybe even regressed some.

[Mountainman]

15. If the price of labor in the fields gets to high they will mechanize

I live near the San Joaquin Valley and soon I may be doing some accounting for a labor supplier. The wages are low in order to have jobs. If ever the cost of labor exceeds the cost of mechanization then machines will replace the workers. And yes the price of food will rise.

It is very much like the war on drugs. It will not go away until those making a profit off of it no longer make the money they do.

[LeahMira]

39. Fine!

I wonder if one head of lettuce or tomato..
Is picked "legally..." if it was, we would all be paying $5 a head probably!

I doubt it would cost $5. because people would soon start growing their own lettuce or whatever, but at the same time I really don't like it that our costs are kept down because these illegals are willing and available to work under such poor conditions.

I do think that if the illegals weren't available the price of lettuce would be about the same, but the landowners would be a lot less wealthy. That wouldn't hurt at all.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IronLionZion]

3. when freeper types say immigration

they are trying to put a pretty name over state-sponsored racism because their biggest beef is with the non-white immigrants. But in all fairness, many working class democrats are serious opponents of immigration because their jobs are at stake. And they might be a bit racist too.

An illegal immigrant from Mexico will work for less than any white person, even an illegal immigrant from Russia.

[demconfive]

4. Spot on!

Absolutely on target. I read a while back of 'illegals' being rounded up in Arizona. The workers were handcuffed and sent back to Mexico while the people who employed them payed a $100.00 fine 'per violation. I'm sure those workers never saw a last paycheck. A $100.00 fine for two weeks of work is a great trade. The reporter noted that the employers joked with the court workers as if they had been there before.
Kinda makes you sick, don't it?

[K8-EEE]

8. It's SUCH A Racket!!

And then they act so sanctimonious about it...like when our old Gov. Pete Wilson (ugh) was all on the soapbox about these horrible illegals and at the same time employing illegal domestics and paying them shit...HYPOCRITS

[JasonDeter]

7. Most in California are two income families.

"every industry would come to a grinding halt."
.....
Kind of an exaggeration don't you think?

I know alot of people who would take alot of the jobs illegals have, then maybe they can quit wallmart.

[K8-EEE]

9. No It's Really Not An Exageration!

With few exceptions, building, construction, agriculture, manufacturing...all DEPEND ON illegal workers and if you know a lot of people who would pick lettuce for $5 an hour (sometimes less) 10 hour days no benefits?

Also even the affluent West-Siders routinely use illegal domestics. They don't want to hire one of your friends if they aren't very, VERY cheap and subserviant.

[JasonDeter]

14. Ok, you say building, construction, manufacturing and then

say would anyone pick lettuce for 5 hr!? Are you saying those other jobs only pay 5 hr too? If you are you don't know what your talking about. There are many many people who would love to have a construction or factory job and even a janitorial job (people getting out of prison for one) but can't because illegal aliens have the jobs. I see them all the time. In fact more and more jobs are being taken by illegals. Its wrong and I hope bushshite* legalizes the illegals in this country because that is really going to piss off alot of people in the republican party. I thank God the illegal aliens in this country don't affect my line of work but I know alot of people who it does.

[Mountainman]

16. Illegals work for less or else they would not have the jobs

A lot of the workers are supplied by contract employment. The employer does not have to prove the worker is legally able to work in the U.S.

It is a business similar to the temp agencies. The supplier makes the profit. He supplies a worker for 8 dollars and hour and keeps 3 and pays the worker 5. Many of the workers have forged documents that show they are able to work.

I don't know of many non-Hispanics that would work like that. It isn’t one person competing against another. It is big business supplying workers.

[K8-EEE]

19. So, Reality Check....

So the reality of it is that big corporations AND individuals rely on cheap immigrant labor; and the the illegals come from such hideous situations at home that they will accept sub-par treatment by our standards.

Given that is the situaton, it is disgusting and hypocritical that these RW pols take every opportunity to bash the undoc'd workers and never say a word about those who employ them.

[guajira]

34. Reality Check 2

While corporations make huge profits paying low wages to illegals who won't complain about working conditions, middle class US taxpayers are paying the billions of dollars for the social services used by illegals.

If you don't believe it, move to Miami for awhile and see how many there are on food stamps, section 8 housing, free medical, education, legal costs, etc.

The lower cost of food is offset by costs of social services and loss of jobs to Americans.

[K8-EEE]

37. I Agree With You

That the middle class ends up paying the bill. That's why we should start demanding that companies pay living wages and benefits -- and stop supporting the current system.

In short, we are subsidizing big biz and their slave-wage habit.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

10. Who else would clean Walmarts for a dollar an hour?

The Wall Street Journal praises illegal immigration daily. Corporate America actively supports illegal immigration.

[cryofan]

11. "want" is not the same as "need"

I WANT a mansion, but I NEED shelter.

Get it?

The investors who own businesses WANT more profit. So they pay the Dems and GOP to keep the desperate 3rd worlders coming. But they could get by with less profits, like they did when Americans did all those jobs that illegals do now for less money. Do you know why Americans do not want those jobs anymore? Because the illegals will do them for so little money that Americans cannot afford to do them anymore. If the flow of cheap 3rd world labor stopped, the wages for those jobs would rise, and, voila, Americans would do those jobs again. It's called the law of demand and supply. You might wanna read up on it.

We need to stop the flow of illegal labor, and also slow down legal immigration, too. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with MONEY. Not money for rich investors, but more money in the wallets of working lower middle class and poor Americans.

And spare me the standard racist arguments, please, as I am biracial myself and have a legal immigrant Asian wife.

[K8-EEE]

21. Absolutely But Why Not Penalize The Employers?

I'm just saying that the blame is always at those coming over the borders (definitely the vulnerable ones in this situation) and not to the companies hiring them (who as you point out, have a choice.)

You can't tell me that if WallMart hires a person for $2 and hour 7 days a week they "were fooled by forged docs" or whatever -- they KNOW they are hiring illegals! So why do freepers support stores like WallMart...instead of somewhere like Costco where they provide decent pay and benefits?

The point is, if we REALLY want to stop the flow of illegal immigration, we have to stop supporting it; that means less corporate profits and more our of our pockets for goods and services.

[LibDemAlways]

12. In my suburban So Cal neighborhood

"illegal" workers clean homes and businesses, mow lawns, paint houses, build houses, babysit,
wash dishes, wash cars -- often for the same repukes who would deny them a driver's license
so they could legally get to work in the first place.

Of course "illegals" work on farms and in stores and factories too -- and accept sub-minimum wages
and inhumane working conditions out of fear of deportation.

"Illegals" are absolutely essential as a pool of cheap labor and - in these times - cheap cannon fodder as well. No wonder
the chimp is saying "Bring them on."

[NJCher]

13. Not only that

But labor this cheap supports policies that are undesirable. A good example is the American lawn. It sucks up water and requires huge amounts of maintenance: mowing once a week, watering, fertilizing, ad infinitum. A better alternative would be to encourage people to landscape with natural plants or to plant more trees to replenish the forest canopy.

But no, we don't do that. Instead we continue the unsustainable model by driving down the cost of labor.

Furthermore, these workers often have to use equipment for which they are unprotected. It's not uncommon to see such workers using a leaf blower without hearing protection. I once tried to converse with someone who had worked for years in that business and who had not used protective ear gear. This person told me point blank he had no hearing.


Cher

[K8-EEE]

18. Exactly Right...In My L.A. Neighborhood Also

Drive around and look at who's doing the work -- go to any playground in any affluent area and see the immigrant ladies pushing the little blond kids on the swings. The same people who benefit from the cheap labor are the ones who are faux-outraged by the "immigration problem."

[radwriter0555]

29. Interestingly enough, not all these people are illegal. In fact MOST of

them are legal.

The preception is that anyone with a tan (from mexico) is illegal.

This is not the case. MOST of the people you see working in legit jobs are "legal" and in fact BORN here.

[cthrumatrix]

17. A gift to Walmart ...My question...can they Vote..?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

20. yes in many states they can vote

[K8-EEE]

22. Heck No, They Can't Vote, At Least Not In CA...

In fact my legal immigrant friend from Canada just voted in his first election after living here 30 years, he became a naturalized citizen -

I don't think they should be able to vote, I just don't think they should be exploited and scapegoated....wage slave labor is part of the "pro business" mentality, nobody is gonna SAY: "I'm For Cheap Undocumented Labor For More Profits!" But certainly the most powerful people would secretly agree with that statement.

[radwriter0555]

28. Please name the states in which an illegal alien can vote...

I gotta see this.

[adriennel]

23. Precisely. Business as usual.

our economy has always relied on immigrant labor. we just don't want to talk about it and admit we still use an ethnic and economic based tiered labor infrastructure.

imo, BushCo is doing this to secure votes from CA, TX, AZ, etc. This will not be good for immigrants or permanent residents in the US. The individuals working but not living in the US will have no rights. US residents looking for jobs will see that BushCo is clearly placing the corporate desires (cheap labor) over the need to preserve jobs in the US. business as usual.

[Gin]

25. If we want this fixed..."we all" must pay a price...the employer must be

fined and or jailed for hiring illegals....we as consumers must pay a higher cost for vegetables and other foods...whatever it takes to get this under control, must be done.."we" are a part of the problem and must be a part of the solution.

The "illegal" worker is a huge problem in this country. We are all subsidizing their schooling and healthcare..they work for very low wages and that brings down the wages of others and takes away jobs from others.

We all have needs...their needs are not more important than those who obey the laws of this country. Allowing this to continue diminshes what it means to be an American citizen.

[radwriter0555]

33. So what's wrong with education and food? Why should someone NOT

have the same rights and privileges as the colonials who took these lands away from them?

I thought the USA was the greatest, most powerful, most wealthy country in on the planet; what? we don't have enough to look after the future inhabitants of this planet?

What happened to sharing and equal opportunity? What happened to compassion and caring? These people were here long before the european colonists were, and are being denied equal standing because of the borders that WE chose to impose?

Might want to think about the USA's discriminatory immigration laws for a moment there.

[adriennel]

38. they're intertwined

immigration policy and illegal labor, that is.
since the very beginning of this country, industry has relied on immigrant labor. Large numbers of Chinese men worked to build the western rail system, then a few years later, the US Gov decided no more Chinese immigrants would be allowed in the country. Same thing happened with Mexican immigration as the west was populated. In the beginning the West was sparsely populated (by white people) and the border was fairly open. Now we have a wall and a ton of border agents to patrol our Southern border. There are far fewer border patrols working our (larger) Northern border than our Southern border. Why is this?
imo, BushCo's latest plan is like indentured servitude--we want your labor, then go home.

[PsN2Wind]

24. The importation of labor

has much the same effect as exporting jobs. It makes everyone compete on the basis of how cheap they will work. I've worked in a packing house, I've worked in manufacturing, I've worked in construction and I even picked spuds once. The packing house (Oscar Meyer), the construction (roofer) and the manufacturer (tool and diemaker) all paid reasonably well. Now that illegals have forced down the wages, we say Americans won't do that kind of work. The cost of almost everything still continues to go up so the result of cheap labor is greater profits for corporations, contractors and farms.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Once a week, back when I lived in Portland,

I used to ride the bus past the corner where the Latino day laborers hung out waiting for jobs.

One day, one of these men got on the bus and was greeted by a friend. As far as my high school Spanish could determine, their conversation went something like this:

"I thought you had a job today."

"No. They wanted to pay only three dollars an hour." For emphasis, he held up three fingers. "Tres dolares la hora."

I wonder how many of these employers were part of Oregon's large pool of Libertarian voters.

If I were Labor Czarina, employers who hired illegals would be fined twice the difference between what they paid each illegal immigrant and what the prevailing legal wage for that work was. So if someone hired immigrants for a minimum wage job at $3 per hour for a month, the fine would be about $6 per person per hour worked.

[underpants]

27. DEPTORT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS (this didn't take long)

Dave Drew, a local resident, protests near day laborers who are lined up waiting for work in Farmingville, N.Y, Wednesday, Jan. 7, 2004. Millions of illegal migrant farmers, hotel maids





Protesters hand out flyers on a street corner in Farmingville, N.Y, one of several Long Island communities that have been beset by tensions over an influx of illegal immigrants, Wednesday, Jan. 7, 2004. Millions of illegal migrant workers in the shadows of American society would be freed from the threat of deportation for at least three years and could get a chance, although probably remote for most, at permanent legal U.S. status under an election-year proposal President Bush (news - web sites) is expected to ask Congress to approve Wednesday. (AP Photo/Ed Betz)

[adriennel]

30. another point

we're not just talking about migrant farm labor or other jobs deemed to be "below" Americans. where have all the IT jobs gone? In my last job I definately remember a time began when all the newly hired developers were from India. Very nice people to work with, but I saw programmers trained in America dismayed to see their salaries go down and job opportunities decrease as a result of this new labor structure.

[guynamedjoe]

32. How many Illegal Aliens?

What gets me is the arguement that if we got rid of all the illegal aliens, our economy would grind to a halt. If you buy the count of 9 million that means that about 3% of the population would have to be replaced in the work force. In 2002, the corporation I work for had to do a I.D. check of its workforce and found that about ten of my co-workers were illegal and had to leave their $16 an-hour jobs. Another of our plants 20 miles north had to get rid of 25 temps who were being paid $8 dollar an hour. My question to the Personnel Manager was why the hell he didn't call INS?

5 dollars for a head of lettuce? It could never happen, since the American consumer would just get their produce from other sources.

[K8-EEE]

35. Anti-US Worker Policies

Yeah another big lie...that it doesn't matter that the manufacturing jobs are leaving, just go to college and be tech-savvy....and watch the jobs go to countries that have a cheaper labor force.

Today's college graduates will be tomorrow's revolutionaries if somebody doesn't stop this trend.

[PsN2Wind]

40. You got that right

Those blue-collar jobs are up for the lowest bid IF they aren't exported. However there is a lot of angst here over the tech jobs being exported or immigrants brought in to compete for them. I hope the techies aren't too surprised when someone, after losing their job in the manufacturing sector, asks why we are spending tax dollars to educate people in those fields when we could just have open immigration from India of people already educated, speak English and are willing to work cheaper. An added benefit would be that if I'm in an accident and have a sucking chest wound, I don't have to sit in the ER while an immigrants child is treated for the sniffles since that is where the bulk of them go for medical treatment in our state.

[progressivejazz]

31. It's all about the law of supply and demand.

The employers pay lip service to it. Then the supply of cheap labor decreases because Americans recognize they have no chance of improving their lives at such low wages. At that point, the employers ignore both the law of supply and demand and the laws of this country to import illegals who can improve their lives at that wage because their lives are so terrible to start out with. The end result is lower wages for the American worker, because we all have to eat.

The solution is to fine the employers heavily, not with a rarely-imposed slap on the wrist. Then with American wages at a living level, if there are still more jobs than can go around, import laborers legally.

In short, I'll welcome foreign workers to this country once Americans are paid a living wage, not before.

[West Coast Democrat]

36. If these employers would simply offer decent pay and benefits

to workers, ordinary Americans would be taking the jobs that illegal immigrants are currently holding. These employers say they are "forced" to hire illegals because nobody else wants to work those crummy jobs. All they need to do is offer better pay and benefits to fill those jobs.

[progressivejazz]

41. Amen.

It really wouldn't bother me to pay more to have my lawn mowed if I knew that the people mowing it were getting decent compensation. I'd gladly pay more for my meats and vegetables for the same reason. By paying what I am, I'm personally taking advantage of these people's situation, unjustly.

It's simply a matter of justice.