Be Very Careful When You Say That !!!

[WillyT]

This is a response I made to a post on another thread. Not pickin on the poster, but have heard this sentiment many times before here. Thought it deserved further discussion. They said:

"We've survived bad administrations before, we'll survive this. I still have some degree of faith in my country."

This was in reaction to somebody's concerns over 4 more years of Shrub.

And I said:

Be Very Careful When You SayThat !!!

YOU'VE survived bad administrations before.

I'VE survived bad administrations before.

But there are a lot of folks locked up in prison on nonviolent charges for way too long because we had to 'get tough on crime' to get elected. There are probably innocent people who got the needle of death for the same reason. There are people who froze to death in Northern cities during the winter because 'they were too lazy too find a job'. There have been old people, people who built this country and fought in its wars, who have had their heat turned off during winter because they couldn't pay their bills, have been forced to eat cat food to survive, who have to choose between medicine and rent. There have been minorities, and women, and gays, and the handicapped, and a whole host of other bright souls who have been diminished or extinguished during these 'bad administrations'.

Please, for the love of humanity, BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU SAY...

WE have survived bad administrations before!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:

Am I being overly sensitive, or dramatic here? Cause I can think of many many instances where some of our countymen DID NOT survive 'bad administrations' at all!

:shrug:

BTW - Not trying to stifle speech here, but ya gotta realize that there are a number of folks here barely surviving the last 3 years.

[Dookus]

1. that was me

you were replying to.

My post was in response to somebody who claimed that if a Dem didn't win '04, there wouldn't even BE an election in '08.

I think that's hyperbolic. I thought your reply was a bit so, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Well I have to agree with the folks who fear

no elections in '08

This is NOT a regular administration

Also if we do NOT correct the error in '04 the world will do it for us

This is not Reagan we are talking about, but a tin pot wanna be dictator who is on record, saying that it woudl be so much easier if this was a dictartorship

[Dookus]

3. again...

hyperbole. The world's oldest and great democracy will not be brought down by one punk-ass president.

[11 Bravo]

6. Agreed.

A know-nothing dipshit like * cannot destroy American democracy. He can, however, with one or two SCOTUS appointments, make it much harder for "we the people" to maintain our Constitutional rights. So, let's not take any chances and go ahead and bounce this dumb-ass back to that Texas shit-hole he laughingly calls a ranch.

[nostamj]

7. do you actually believe this is a democratically elected

administration?

and no, one punk-ass president will not bring down democracy BUT the corporate elite behind that punk-ass already have...

[G_j]

9. will the planet survive

Bush's environmental policies? Not looking good...

Will the Middle East survive his foriegn policy, will we? Remains to be seen...

And what 'quality' of survival do you imagine?


I am not optimisitc.

I believe we are at the crossroads.

[salin]

4. wow.

while the first post you refer to may have been, I find the essense behind this post/thread - rather thought provoking. There are consequences of the policies of this administration that have hit some of the most vulnerable parts of our society in ways that do challenge survival.

I would add that in the local paper today there was an item on Gary for the x number in a row having the highest per capita murder rate in the country and that it - like many urban cities - had increased quite a bit in the last year. Violent crime rates often mirror - not 'the economy' broadly defined, but the job market. In at least one major city the increase last year in the murder rate was more tan 20%. While less direct than the points that WillyT makes - it did occur to me that some of these deaths might be as a result of the economic policies of this administration.

To cast this point off - as hyperbolic - reads a bit ... callous... along the lines of... "poor people don't matter anyway - that is so over the top." :shrug:

[WillyT]

8. Thank You Salin, My Point Exactly !!!

The callousness of WE will survive, dismisses the every day horrors of those that aren't making it, and won't. And THEY are one of the reasons the Democratic Party exists at all. How dare we look past them.

:hi:

[Dookus]

14. I'm sorry you think it's callous

I don't believe it is.

let me state for the record (and it shouldn't even be necessary) that I oppose George W. Bush greatly. He's bad for the world, bad for the country, bad for me personally. I want him gone. NOW.

That being said, I think a reading of US history will show that we have a number of democratic institutions in place that make it extremely hard for one president to do away with constitutional government. The country has survived a civil war, two world wars, major depressions and some really really bad presidents. We survived those, and we'll survive this.

[salin]

21. Institutions vs individuals

many institutions are likely to survive - though perhaps seriously altered (they do seem to be trying to pass both laws and executive/administrative changes as fast as lightening in all areas of government.) But the "WE" will survive, neglects that there may be some humans who will suffer greatly and may not survive - just as some didn't survive the Great Depression - facilitated by policies from the period prior to the great depression. There is a distinction. You are refering to a system. WillyT is reminding you that there are still human beings who will suffer greatly due to the policy changes and may not survive - and thus the WE is interpretted as collective citizens rather than WE as US institutions.

[Touchdown]

31. Small comfort...

to the 200 soldiers and marines who didn't survive this bad President.

[WillyT]

5. Perhaps, But It's One Thing To Say...

"Stiff upper lip mate, we'll get through this."

It's quite another to sound like you have no clue of the current pain people are going through now under this current administartion. And to sound as if there is something wrong with THEM, if they cannot survive another 4 years!

:shrug:

[Dookus]

15. I'm not sure what you want me to say...

if I simply disagree with the premise that a bush win in '04 will be the end of constitutional government.

I don't know why you need to ascribe an attitude like "callous" to such a belief, either. I'm making no arguments in favor of Bush. I'm not minimizing the damage he can do. But neither am I maximizing it, like you are.

It needn't be personal. I just have faith that we've established a democracy that will outlast this president.

[rasputin1952]

10. I Agree with you 100%...

Far from being Hyperbolic, you have left quite a bit out.

The constant gnawing away of the Bill of Rights, and the destruction of the legitimate process of voting alone should raise red flags for everyone in this nation.

To say we will survive this onslaught is to be blind to history. Are we heading towards a Second Civil War? I feel this way because only once before, in the history of our country, have we been so divided.

This nation has always been a hotbed of ideology, but at this point in our history, we are teetering on the brink of dictatorship. This is not hyperbole, but fact.

Can anyone tell me when our Civil Rights been in such peril? There were times when we had to fight and claw our way up in the recognition for the rights of many Americans; but this is the first time that the rights of ALL Americans has been under such pressure.

Patriot II was passed under the "Orange" glow of terroristic threats that never materialized. Just about the only Amendment left untouched in the Bill of Rights was the Third, and that will come quickly enough, if we allow our nation to slip another rung.

Homegrown terrorism is an overlooked problem. The couple in TX that plead guilty to having WMD's, (i.e., large quantity of sodium-cyanide), was barely reported. They were discovered in '02, yet i only read about it by chance, from a thread over at Smirking Chimp.

The current administration is under the impression they can do no wrong, because they convinced the Village Idiot from Crawford, that he is working directly for God! This is why we have separation of Church and State. Religion is a powerful tool for those bent on domination. The Nazi's came to look at National Socialism as a religion as opposed to a political power. The same thing is happening here, today, in what was once the beacon of Freedom.

Constant vigilance is necessary in a democracy/republic. If these people are not tossed out in NOV, this nation will fall back even further. Our national soul is at stake, and people see no threat?

Call it hyperbole if you must, but I believe that we are in some very serious trouble. If we do not retake OUR nation, we may, very well lose it forever.

O8)

[G_j]

23. building a new generation of nukes

while trashing existing treaties.

nothing to see here?

[Dookus]

25. it seems the attitude is....

unless I believe that American representative democracy will go away if Bush is elected, then I somehow support or excuse Bush. That is incorrect. I've posted very clearly above what my position is.

[G_j]

27. no, not implying that at all

just pointing out some things that I feel seriously threaten us all. As I said before, I think we stand at a major crossroads.

[WillyT]

28. Dookus, That Was Not The Connection I Was Trying To Make...

and if I misinterpreted or misconstrued your original intent, I apologize.

If I had to bet my house (if I had a house too bet) on whether or not there will be an election in '08 even if Bush is reselected, I would bet that we will. It's just that the odds on that bet have changed for the worse ever since SCOTUS installed this pathetic excuse for a pResident.

What your statemment reminded me of, was the irritation, and sometimes outright rage some of my Black political buds had back in the 80's when some White Liberal would use that phrase. They would be incensed at the 'Comfortable Liberal' position, and remind us that they might just as well stay home if we weren't gonna fight hard for them, as well as for ourselves.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but that's what I was trying to say above.

Peace!

:hi:

[Dookus]

30. well...

you said "It's quite another to sound like you have no clue of the current pain people are going through now under this current administartion. And to sound as if there is something wrong with THEM, if they cannot survive another 4 years!" And you referred to my position as "callous".


Yes, things are tough for many people, and will get tougher under a second Bush term. But if you think things are bad now, read more about the early years of the Republic, or the Civil War, or World War II, or the Great Depression....

The issue being discussed was not whether things were hunky-dory. It was whether our Democracy would survive another Bush term. I was arguing that point, and that point only.

[G_j]

32. assuming for discussion's sake

that our democracy is not already dead, I would be more than happy if you were right, that American democracy has the resilience to survive.

First I worry about what that "survival" would look like, for our "democracy" has been degenerating steadily.

Secondly, I believe that even the best of institutions has a breaking point. We are playing against the odds. If Bush gets 4 more years those odds become dismal indeed.

Just on the issue of global warming alone we are at a point that only revolutionary and courageous American leadership could avoid major catastrophe.

Then there is the fact that Bush is building a new generation of nuclear weapons and they have stated that they now view it OK to use them as first strike. Unleash a nuclear exchange (entirely possible under Bush) and ALL bets are off!


Still, my opinion is that we only have a semblance of democracy at it is. To really survive we will have start at the foundation and rebuild, breaking the hold of the corporations. Are any of our "leaders" prepared to do this? I don't think so.

[Dookus]

33. and lots of people

were absolutely convinced the nation wouldn't survive Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Lincoln, Wilson, Hoover, FDR, LBJ, Nixon, Reagan and Clinton. Among others.

It's hysterical hyperbole. It was then, it is now.

[G_j]

34. did any of them declare that

nuclear first strike was an option?

And if you would like some solid information on global warming I've got it.

edit: please don't take this the wrong way, but from your last statement I can only assume you haven't been paying attention.

[Dookus]

35. don't patronize me...

i've been paying very close attention for most of my 42 years.

STOP changing the argument from what it originally was. The original contention was that if Bush was elected, there would NOT be an election in 2008. I disagree, and I've explained many times exactly why.

OTHERS want to turn that stance into "he likes GWB" or "he thinks it's all OK". It's NOT fucking OK, and I've said so repeatedly.

[WillyT]

36. Sorry Dook, I Missed It All Along The Way, Your Sig Line Says It All !!!

Yoy weren't Blinded By The Right, Were Ya???

Bye...

[G_j]

38. Hello?

I am NOT calling you a * lover.
I was under the impression we were discussing the future of American democracy. It appears the discussion is over. so be well.. :hi:

[jmatthan]

39. There will be another election, of course,

just as there were elections in the former Soviet Union under Stalin, Kurschev, Bulganin, etc., or in any dictatorship, or in Hitler's Germany, except they will not be very democratic!!

Last time in the US it was the use of the judiciary to get to power, next time the votes will be "delivered" by DieBold, and next time, and there will be a next time...

They say that former President Kekkonen held his reelection in Finland every six years... Very democratic for Kekkonen, no doubt. Till he had to be finally removed because of his suffering from dementia.

He just forgot about that condition....

Jacob Matthan
http://www.findians.com/educated.html
Oulu, Finland

[rasputin1952]

26. Yes, didn't think of that...

just what the world needs, a new :nuke: program under this idiot.

:crazy:

[Serenades]

11. honestly

Did Repubs say this chicken little stuff when Clinton was in office? I think you guys are overreacting a little bit.

[Spiderm0n]

12. YES

[Brian_Expat]

13. My theory (and I hope Dookus doesn't mind my stepping in). . .

Dookus mentioned that he, like me, is an openly gay man. We're used to being told to "wait" or "hold off" on issues of life and death (like HIV research, non-discrimination, etc.) Gay people in the USA are very much survivors of abuse, assault, discrimination, etc. We've been through wrenching periods of doubt about whether our own friends and family are going to disown us based upon how we were born, whether we're going to lose our jobs over how we are, etc. We've sometimes been physically assaulted or even near death. We've all lost dear friends too early because of HIV, breast cancer (lesbians get it much more often, people don't know why yet) and violence. Every day, we have to pop false bubbles that people put us in, like "he's not really gay" or "oh, he must like interior design" or "oh, he must act this way."

Compared to all that we've had to survive in the past and have to survive today and in the future in our daily lives, economically, politicall, socially and physically, a Bush presidency for another four years isn't that big a deal.

Not saying it's good, but I happen to think a lot of people who have had it better than us don't understand just how scary day-to-day life can be, from a different perspective. Compared to that, Bush is just a passing ill wind, like a party fart. To many of us, Bush is just another day in a very imperfect world.

[Dookus]

16. Thank you Brian...

I don't know how much being gay has informed my position on this. I tend to think it's more rooted in an understanding of the difficulties this country has faced in the past and a faith in its resilience.

Hey, I could be wrong, in which case you and I are BOTH among the first to be rounded up. But I don't stay awake nights worrying about it.

[Brian_Expat]

17. Good point, Dookus

rounded up

Right now I am in England, which means I'll probably escape the camps (assuming the whole world doesn't go insane and ship back Americans to the US). I would work to help people escape -- risk my life to do so -- but as much as I believe some of the Bush administration and its supporters want camps, I don't think they will get them.

I do worry about gays in the military being drafted and sent off to die in poorly-equipped brigades in Iraq, which is why opposition to the war and a clear plan for getting other countries and the UN into the peacekeeping effort -- establishing a local government and getting out -- is so important to me. We cannot go it alone there, and if we do, I fear GLBT folk will carry much more than their fair share of the burden (as usual).

[rasputin1952]

18. I am a straight male...

but I'll tell you this; before they come rounding up gays, they'll have fight me, and one hell of a lot of other progressives first.

NOBODY is getting, "rounded up", as long as there is fight in this man! I learned what silence and inaction do when I saw what happened after 9-11 and the trips to Gitmo. Equality for EVERYONE, or there will never be freedom in this nation.

I'll be fighting with you!

O8)

edited for clarity.

[Brian_Expat]

19. It won't come to that

And if it ever does, whoever tries it will be in for the fight of their lives! Not to mention the disdain of the rest of the world.

[libview]

20. It's against the law in this country to shut off someones heat in

the winter because they can't pay there bill.

[salin]

22. what law?

It happens. Don't pay your bills - power goes out.

[rasputin1952]

24. That's what I've seen...

There are some programs out there to help people, but a lot of people don't know about them, or they miss the cut-off amt, and are denied.

You can be $5 over the cut-off, and you get squat. But by far, the biggest problem is that these programs are part of the make-up for the bush tax cut. Once Federal funds dried up, so did the programs. States can't handle the load alone.

O8)

[Speed8098]

37. Wrongo Friend

Try not paying your bill. You'll see how cold the inside of a house can get in freezing weather.

How do I know?? I've been there.

[Isome]

29. Am I being overly sensitive, or dramatic here?

No... HELL NO... you are not!