will only gays teachers be allowed to teach

[bearfartinthewoods]

in the specialGLB NYC school?

o ask because of this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=93085&mesg_id=93085&page=#93187

[DarkPhenyx]

1. Oh, sure BearFart

get us in more trouble why don't you?

[TheBigGuy]

3. for what? being homophobic Democrats?

hey, this is a big tent party. I can live with homophobic folks voting Democratic.

[DarkPhenyx]

4. Who's homophobic?

Definately not me.

[Drifter]

67. I am a recovering Homo Phobe

I was pretty homophobic growing up. The main reason is that I was not exposed to many homosexual people (as far as I knew).

In college I was forced to work at a hotel (4 star) to make ends meet. It was not until I made a terrible remark, that I found out that virtually all of the men that I worked with were gay. It created an uncomfortable situation, but we all learned something. I learned that these people were not stereotypical "gay" people as I had imagined. They learned that homophobes can be educated.

That's all it took was education. Once I learned that these people were exactly like me in most everyway, I found myself released from a thought process that was extremely closed minded.

After this experience I found myself living with a guy (as a roomate) who was recently divorced. He was a great guy. Then I found out that he was gay (he told me after nearly finding out myself). He was worried about telling me, because he thought it might be a problem. I expressed to him that it did not bother me. I used to get mad at him because we used to refer to his "gayness" as his "problem". I tried to get him to stop referring to his homosexuality, as his "problem".

Unfortunately, this poor guy was unable to tell his father that he is gay, undoubtedly because his father is homophobic.

Cheers
Drifter

[bearfartinthewoods]

6. you cannot even try to hang that on me.........n/t

[jonnyblitz]

19. nope.. you are definitely NOT a homophobe bearfart

I have read your posts whenever gay issues are discussed and you are consistently pro-gay side even when nobody else in the thread seems to be.

[Terwilliger]

40. clinical trials

suggest that that the higher your level of homophobia, the more likely you are to be aroused by depictions of homosexual sex. The study also suggests that those who truly aren't homophobic are less aroused by homosexual depictions. Isn't that special?!?!

I think that should be published in the platform. HELL! The platform of 4 or 5 parties!

[Liberal Veteran]

2. Perhaps you would do well to educate yourself about the school...

...and it's mission before jumping to conclusions.

You can start here.

http://www.hmi.org/

[bearfartinthewoods]

5. i'm serious

why couldn't the case be made?

there was a movement to bring back all girl schools taught by women because it wass felt that situation is most favorable for girls to excel.

now we have parents declaring only blacks can teach black history.

where does this segmentation/segregation end?`

[whoYaCallinAlib]

7. We should be talking about teacher QUALITY vs. teacher orientations.

Who cares about skin color or sexual orientation? For my kids, I want the best teacher . . . period.

[DarkPhenyx]

9. Amen

[bearfartinthewoods]

12. Who cares about skin color or sexual orientation?

that's the point.

lots of us have been working most of our lives to make that attitude universal.

both of these issues represent a giant step back in the battle.

[Liberal Veteran]

23. Plenty of people do....

Perhaps you haven't noticed that only in the last few weeks did the Supreme Court even grant homosexuals the "privilege" of having sex legally in the privacy of their own home.

And gay people still cannot openly serve in the military of this country.

And most states have passed laws forbidding the recognition of gay marriage.

It is very easy to sit back and poo poo things designed to help minorities of any sort when you happen to not be one yourself and as far as I am concerned it's not any different from the same arguments heard from the right wingers against Affirmative Action who piously claim that we should be color blind when they know damn well that the society is not.

[DarkPhenyx]

27. the point would be that...

...it shouldn't be an issue. period.

Reality be damned it should not be an issue. Now, tell me how creating new seperate institutions solely for the minority factions in society are going to correct those inequities?

[bearfartinthewoods]

28. yes i had noticed

and drank a few toasts that night to celebrate another step on the road to making being GLB no big deal.

this school runs countrary to that journey.

[Liberal Veteran]

33. Then answer me this.....

Were you toasting the Supreme Court when they upheld Affirmative Action?

[bearfartinthewoods]

36. no

i believe that if we are ever to achieve equality for all, special treatment, via government fiat, has to end.

[Liberal Veteran]

43. Then I understand perfectly your position....

...and reject it out of hand.

As I have said before. It's very easy to sit back and mouth pious platitudes about the necessity to acheive a blind society with regard to the various prejudices one encounters in society when you aren't the one that is going to have to suffer the consequences of said bigotry against yourself.

People suffer indirectly due to the inaction/actions of idealists almost as much as the hands of oppressors.

[bearfartinthewoods]

51. now i am confused

since you feel i can't understand your plight because i am not you,
do you also feel that only GLBs should teach in that school and only blacks teach blacks?

annnnd...you are assuming that i'm white, aren't you?

[Liberal Veteran]

53. I make no assumptions at all about you...

In fact I try not to think about you much at all. The few times our paths have crossed, I can honestly say that I was impressed, but perhaps not in the way you would have hoped.

[bearfartinthewoods]

65. we have 'crossed paths' before?

to be blunt, i do not understand the thinking that says the way to make being GLB 'no big deal'(which is my aim) is to institutionize the difference.

this is a bandaid approach that will shelter 170 kids in NYC while setting back the effort to eliminate their need for protection.

did you happen to hear pat buchanan on imus this AM? they were having quite a laugh at this idea.

that conversation did more to explain my problems with this idea than anything i can type here.............. if you can find a transcript, i suggest you check it out.

[Liberal Veteran]

66. It's only been around for 20 years.....

And treating this like a ghetto segregation school instead of what it really is which is an alternative to safety net program designed to help a small percentage of GLBT students who would otherwise probably drop out of school altogether is really a problem with your mindset, not mine.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. Only black teachers?

OK, this is the point where I point out liberalism does have the ability to go too far.

I hadn't heard this story. Maybe it's a good thing I hadn't.

[Liberal Veteran]

10. You obviously don't understand the difference between...

Voluntary alternative schooling and forced segregation.

Maybe you just have to understand what's it like to get to be shit on by every single aspect of life to realize why this is a good thing. I don't know of any other group that faces prejudice from their friends, strangers, family, their church, and their schools like gay people do. At the very least most people of color and faiths have their church and family to support them even if they get from everywhere else.

For a democrat, I find your lack of empathy for these kids appalling.

[DarkPhenyx]

14. Prehaps not...

...but I can tell the difference between what should be a publicly funded school and what should not.

It isn't lack of empathy.

[BearFlagDemocrat]

16. I totally agree.

Gays and lesbians (etc.) are one of the few minority groups that generally do not belong to the same minority as one or both parents. When racial/ethnic minorities suffer discrimination, they usually have a family support network that they can turn to, but gays more often than not, do not. This makes them a special case, IMHO, and anything that helps the large number of GLBT teen suicides is a good thing (again, IMHO).

[Christian73]

20. BearflagDemocrat

Very good point.

[bearfartinthewoods]

21. you assuming i don't have empathy for these kids

or understand their plight.

you are wrong on both counts.

[QC]

11. OK, if it's a serious question...

then here's a serious answer.

The sexual orientation of teachers should make no difference whatsoever. If Harvey Milk School is practicing employment discrimination against heterosexuals then they are wrong and should be punished for breaking the law.

I share your doubts about the idea that only ___ can teach courses about ___, but it's a somewhat more complex issue than the treatment it's getting here. I mean, would you be a bit uncomfortable with a white investment banker's son from Greenwich teaching a course called "The Black Female Experience in America"?

[DarkPhenyx]

15. If he did a good job...

...I wouldn't give a rats ass if he was a blue amoeba from Pluto.

[bearfartinthewoods]

17. would you be uncomfortable with a hetro teaching sex ed

at the GLB school?

same deal.......

[QC]

18. No, I wouldn't.

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. why not?

the hetro would have no more in common with the subject or the students than the white corprate guy teaching about being a black womam. either it matters in both cases or it doesn't.

[QC]

30. Because one class deals with a fairly objective

set of facts and the other deals heavily with cultural issues that can be very difficult if not impossible to learn in a classroom alone.

A few years back I was teaching at a traditionally black college that had a struggling but potentially very good program in optics. The school won a state grant to hire an "eminent scholar" in the field and chose someone from, I think it was, Germany.

Many students and faculty there argued that a black professor should have been chosen. My take on the matter was that a letter of recommendation from one of the top scholars in the field would do great things for the students in that department. Besides, there is probably not a unique cultural perspective in optics.

Again, the issue is far more complex than the typically either/or treatment it is getting here.

[bearfartinthewoods]

38. you think sexuality is NOT

"very difficult if not impossible to learn in a classroom alone"?

i still think the two situations are the same.

[QC]

42. If you want to argue

that all forms of knowledge are exactly the same in every way, then please feel free.

[bearfartinthewoods]

54. no, i'm not

i'm saying that in both cases, the teachers would have a less than perfect identification with the subject matter. if you feel it matters in one case and not in the other, i disagree. i'd like to understand your point but it's just about lights out for me.

i'm bookmarking for tomorrow.

[Duncan Grant]

34. Instead of this arguement...

might I suggest that we at DU become indignant about the overt hostility and prejudice that gay kids *and* adults deal with 24/7?

Why aren't we discussing the spiritual leaders who condemn g/l/b/t people every sunday morning?

Why aren't we standing up to politicians like Rick Santorum who equates my friends and I with bestiality?

Why aren't we having a serious discussion about gay people who pay their taxes and follow the laws of this country *but* don't enjoy the same legal protection (and privilege) that straight people do?
Gay marriage ring a bell with you? Fair housing? How about the right not to be fired from your job just because you're a fag?

And believe me, this is only the tip of the iceberg. Same goes for the experience of women and blacks in America (which you reference in your original post). I wish you had more interest in the factors that contribute to the oppression of women and blacks in our culture instead of the equivocation of this arguement which compares gays/women/blacks/separation/segregation/etc/etc/etc/.

But no, 'we' want to have some enlightened hair-splitting about gay teachers for gay students. The other thread was offensive enough, please don't freakin' patronize me (here at DU of all places).

I appreciate all honest inquiries from DUer's who are genuinely interested in the day to day lives of g/l/b/t people and who want to educate themselves. I don't think this thread is in that spirit (but, even I could argue that it is perhaps, a place to start).

[QC]

22. Who needs the facts when you've got ideology?

That's the real divide, both in the original thread and in this pointless and unnecessary spinoff.

On the one hand, you have those who are arguing from their experience as part of the target group of this school. On the other hand you have those who are arguing from ideology. As always happens in such cases, people are talking past one another because they are coming at the issue in two entirely different ways.

[DarkPhenyx]

24. again you assume...

...that becasue we don't agree with you that we have no frame of reference. Foolish, foolish mortal.

<on edit>

you don't think your POV is very much a deeply held idiology?

[QC]

26. Having watched you repeatedly

dismiss other people's lives by repeating the same half-assed platitudes over and over since 7:00 this morning, I hardly think that I am assuming your unwillingness to consider any position that does not square with your ideological obsessions.

I'd say it's a metaphysical certainty at this point.

[DarkPhenyx]

29. Then you haven't been paying attention.

[QC]

31. No, I have paid your "arguments"

far more attention than they merit. I guess I keep hoping that you might slip up and accidentally say something that takes into account the world in which we actually live. Unlikely, I know, but hope springs eternal.

[bearfartinthewoods]

32. you ae making more wrong assuptions

my concern it totally for the target group and i have first hand knowledge of the effects of hostility on GLBkids.

[Liberal Veteran]

13. No. In fact, maybe we should get Fred Phelps to teach there?

In the interest of total fairness, you know.

:eyes:

[QC]

35. Excellent point about how gay issues are still viewed in America.

Whenever a news/talk show deals with anything even remotely related to homosexuality, they have to run out and get a knuckle-dragging, missing-chromosome throwback like Gary Bauer or Lou Sheldon to provide "balance."

When they discuss race they do not feel the need to put a member of Aryan Nation on the panel, and when they discuss the Holocaust they do not feel the need to remind us that Hitler did build the Autobahn and improve the German economy.

Faghating is still not only acceptable in America, but widely viewed as a positive virtue. So the situation here is a unique one in some ways.

[Duncan Grant]

39. Thank you, well said!

Happy to see you on this thread.

[QC]

44. Thanks!

Nice to see you around as well.

[noiretextatique]

41. geraldo tried that...

the 'dialogue' between blacks and white supremacists...it didn't work out too well, as i recall :D i was saying this very thing on the other thread: homo-hatred (phobia isn't strong enuf) is still an acceptable prejudice. and you as mention, it's even considered a virtue.

[QC]

46. I remember that!

Truly memorable television!

[Terwilliger]

37. edit much?

flame-bait much? You looked like that guy on Buchanan & Press.

[bearfartinthewoods]

45. do you ever actually participate?

or just take pot shots?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. if i said what i think you are i, too, would be breaking the rules

fell free to guess...............

[noiretextatique]

47. no...but you can bet they will be overwhelemed with applications

from gay teachers.

[Liberal Veteran]

48. That's for damn sure....

There is another side to that picture as well. A teacher who is gay in a community that frowns on homosexuality is a jail of it's own.

[dsc]

50. Amen

How right you are.

[noiretextatique]

52. dsc...i know you are a teacher

i am going to start substitute teaching in the fall.
what's your experience been like...as a gay teacher? i ask because another friend who is also starting to teach is very concerned that her appearance will "out" her...and frankly, i have some concerns myself.

[dsc]

56. Some things

First, students will ask so you have to have some answer programed in advance (assuming you are at jr or sr high). Your answer has to be consistent whatever it is. I pretty much deflect back to the subject at hand whatever it may be.

Second, if you try to prevent students from calling one another fag etc some will pull the "are you gay" diversion.

In the lounge teachers usually don't discuss personal stuff too much but some lounges do. There are two elementary schools where nearly all the talk is personal in my district.

I have no clue where your district is or what its policy on gays and lesbians is but you are an at will employee. They can simply refuse to call you in without justification. That is a really sucky thing about subbing.

I hope this helps and good luck it is a tough job. You have to show the students you are serious and won't put up with BS. Otherwise life will be hell.

[noiretextatique]

57. thanks, dsc....that is helpful

i'm will be in oakland, ca...my friend in san francisco. i will be teaching in elementary schools (i am trying to get a permanent sub position in one school), and my friend will be teaching at jr. high schools. i imagine the policies on gay and lesbian employees is fairly liberal here, but of course, some of the administrators, teachers, parents and students are not. i know it's a tough job...but someone has to do it :D thanks again for the info...and advice.

[dsc]

58. Good luck

I really feel for your friend. Jr Highs are very rough and inner city ones especially so. Being a permanent sub can be very good though. I am unsure if you mean work for only one teacher or only in one school. In either case you should wind up being well known and the kids will catch on to what you expect of them. Generally 4th grade is a big divide. k-3 are generally good classes with only a couple if any trouble makers. 4 -6 depends on the school and the teacher. That is when kids seem to start figuring out what they can get by with and acting accordingly.

I don't think you will really have to worry too much about prying. I rarely got asked by elementary kids and they always respect it is time to go back to work as an answer.

Again good luck. You are entering a noble profession as they say. I do envy living in the likes of Oakland and SF though.

[noiretextatique]

59. more great info...i'm sure i'll be asking you more questions

i am trying for a stip-sub position, which is a permanent sub at one school. apparently, when there is no teaching work, i will be assigned other duties. i like the idea...as you mention, the kids will get to know me...and know that i don't take any shit :D
and i agree...less worries about my personal life at that level.

i really do feel for my friend too. and the plus side, she's working through a program funded by the city arts commission. i told her it's likely the kids who will take her course may actually be interested in the subject, creative writing and poetry. i suspect she will do fine...she has a winning personality.

the social/political climate here is great, but the cost-of-living is challenging. i already know i will have to find some other means of income...so don't envy us to much :D

peace...and thanks again.

[dsc]

60. You have a point on that

Even regular teachers were having housing built for them in San Fran so I can only imagine what it is like for you. I by no means live well but between subbing and a summer job I do get by.

[Rowdyboy]

64. My partner teaches high school (former middle school)....

and I have the utmost respect for you. You're doing one of the hardest jobs imaginable for half (or less) the pitifull salary they pay full teachers. Be patient and God(ess) bless you...

[Fescue4u]

61. Another question: Will they teach about straight people in Health?

Seriously,

This is so ridiculous. After fighting public funding for private schools, vouchers, and segregation...This crap pops up.

Gays are not so different that they require a special school....What next? A school for blacks? oh wait..we already tried that once.....

This unfortunately gives credence to the rightys "special rights for gays" mantra.

[Chovexani]

62. Oh for Christ sake

The only ridiculous thing I see here is your snide little comment comparing the HMS to segregation, which is completely, utterly frelling ridiculous. First of all, the HMS was not started by the government and GLBT? youth are not forced to go there by the state.
And yes, they do "teach about straight people in health class".:eyes:

I'm not getting into my life story here, but in a nutshell I dropped out of high school largely because I experienced some pretty brutal harassment because of my orientation, and lacking a support system at home I just couldn't deal. I ended up getting my GED through the HMS. I wish I would have gone there a full four years, I'd have finished high school. I was a mess when I walked in there, didn't really know what to do with my life, I had terrible depression. They didn't just help me get my diploma, they referred me to low-cost counseling, etc. I think they saved my life, to put it bluntly. My situation was far better than some of the other kids there. A couple of them were homeless, thrown out by fundie parents, and had nowhere to go. Everyone there had a story that would break anyone's heart. I wonder what would have happened to some of them had they not had the HMS. I try not to think about the kids that drop out of life and not just school because they can't deal with it.

Honestly, before you shoot your mouth off about something take the time to learn about it. This is not about gays needing "special rights" or "special schools", it's about providing a supportive, nurturing environment where kids are free to pursue an education without getting the shit kicked out of them for being different. That's all it is.

In the meantime if you have a problem with schools for GLBT? youth, instead of criticizing people who are trying to make life a little easier for said youth, work to improve the situation in public schools so that we don't NEED places like HMS. We wouldn't if mainstream public schools didn't make our lives so frelling miserable.

On Edit: I don't know if you're talking about HMS or this new public school that's popping up. I still think you're off-base regardless, but FYI I see nothing wrong with the new public school. I just think more needs to be done about GLBT? youth in existing public schools. A GLBT? school seems to me like putting a bandaid on the problem. Short term speaking, yeah I think it's a good idea, but only if it's part of a larger effort.

[dsc]

63. Thanks for that post

I hope that things are better for you now. I remember the harrassment I got in school and the daily fear of what might happen next. I didn't drop out only because I was damned if I would give them the satisfaction. Instead I worked my ass off, went to college and worked my ass off, and then just well . . . I fell into a bottle and am now three years out. God bless you man (or woman) you deserve it.