Should the US be in the Assassination Business? Saddam's Sons?

[KoKo]

Am I the only one who was horrified at the Press pictures of Saddam's sons lying with "loin cloths" on slabs exposed to the evil eyes of our whore media?

Am I the only one who thought that they could have been taken alive with tear gas, or any other special ops methods once their location was revealed and then been allowed to stand trial before an Iraqi Court?

Am I the only one who thinks it was up to the Iraqi people to decide what happened to Saddam's sons? Or, in fact, to Saddam himself? Wasn't the point of the "invasion" to allow the Iraqi people to decide their own fate?

Are there any other Americans who might find this display of Bush/PNAC viciousness the final turning point in how far we feel our country should go on this "murderous vendetta" against Iraq?

Will we now go after every last remaining member of Saddam's family.....including any children and distant cousins until they have been eliminated fromt he face of the earth.......complete with pictures of their death wounds?

How can there not be outrage over this?

[bowens43]

1. I'm on your side.

Assassination is murder. These guys were murdered. They should have been tried in a court of law. I believe that they were murdered (like saddam will be) because they knew too much. They probably had info concerning the reagan administrations support of saddam during the Iran/Iraq war. This info would have been very damaging to the little bush and the reagan retreads in his administration. This was murder to cover up republican/conservative complicity in other heinous crimes. Saddam , osama and others will never be captured, they will be killed.

[Jivenwail]

2. No, you are not

I happen to agree. And I posted something similar to another thread here earlier where someone stated they deserved to die because they were psychotic murdering rapists. My argument to that poster was then we should do that to all who are suspected of, or convicted of, murder and rape.

I do not dispute that Saddam and his sons were evil. No one does. But hunting down and killing them or anyone else is murder, JMHO. And the firepower used against the sons was simply not necessary. It was, pardon me for saying, but "overkill". It does not and will not justify the illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. Thousands of innocent Iraqi's have died and are now dying because of the smirk's wild west wet dream of shoot now, ask questions later. Our sons and daughters are dying for what? For oil? For revenge? How will people explain this to their children? That murder is a good thing when he triumphs over evil?

Every tip that comes in now, the military is acting like a death squad. We are no better than the scum they are now hunting. Sorry to say, but even the Nazi's were given trials. But for Saddam and his sons, they hold too much information about the BFEE and that can't be allowed to come out, thus they are targets fur murder. They have to be silenced because in the world of BFEE truth is nonexistent.
And that, my friend, is a very sad world indeed.

No, you are not alone here. I stand with your points and your sense of outrage.

[redwitch]

9. anyone seen a moderator lately?

post #3 is worthy of deletion, IMHO. I hit the alert button -something I've never done before, but what happens next and when? Anyone?

[Maeve]

10. That poster is gone, don't worry

Eventually, the post will get deleted, when the mods get to it.

[sweetheart]

30. i'm sure the branch davidians would agree...

That being murdered is less in keeping with their human right to life... and being summarily executed by sicko american army units employed by police to exterminate a rogue religious group is far more "Democratic".

Since Waco is nearby Crawford, wouldn't it be nice if they combined the two concepts and we could see a reconstructed AWOLface on a slab. I'd party all night if they could show me that picture.

An unfortunate byproduct of living by the sword is that you kill everybody suspect before you can render justice. Osama bin liner surely has similar views on summary execution... but then again, this is war... war against civil society by sick evil men in the whitehouse.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AverageJoe]

4. No, we should not.

I share your outrage, KoKo01. No doubt these guys were bad men, but we murdered them outright.

You're right: Tear gas or some other non-lethal means of bringing them out of the building would have been the way to go. That way they could have been questioned and put on trial and been subject to the rule of international law.

Bush & Co. are in the business of murder and conquest, pure and simple. For whatever reason, they obviously didn't want these guys to talk....

[lynndew2]

33. I agree that it would have been nice to get them alive

BUT, they made it obvious they would never be taken alive. If we lost another 50 troops to take them alive we would all be happy we had them. But that would be more American lives lost. I know i am saying stuff that will not be popular on this board but. It is the truth. It was a 4-6 hour firefight and at that point you do what you have to do. It wasnt assasination(that means killed out of the blue) This is war and I am glad they are with their 72 viagra virgins showing them the way to hard knocks(on the back door). It is sad that anyone feels sorry for them. nough said

[supernova]

5. Agree completely KoKo01,

Having said that, unfortunately I think we'll also assassinate Sadaam too. :-(

I can't imagine Dick Cheney or Donald Rumsfeld wanting Sadamm to talk openly in the World Court, or an Iraqi court, all about how he loved buying WMD from us (from THEM!) in the 80s.

[Freddie Stubbs]

6. It's not assassination

when they shoot back.

[bowens43]

8. When you attack with the intent of killing

rather then capturing a political figure, it IS assassination.

Where does it say that if the intended victim of an assassination attempt defends himself it is no longer an assassination attempt?

[Freddie Stubbs]

14. They weren't going to let themselves be taken alive

It's a combat zone. If you don't kill the enemy, he will kill you.

[bowens43]

15. you spoke to them?

They told you they wouldn't be taken alive?

This was murder, it had nothing to do with being in a combat zone. 200 US troops against 4 people in the house. This was a premeditated slaughter. Don't try to pass off that 'If you don't kill the enemy, he will kill you.' bullshit as a valid reason for this assassination. It won't fly. They were killed to keep them from coming to trial.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. I'm not shedding any tears

I don't suspect any of the families of their vicitms are either.

[EAMcClure]

17. Don't use victims as a shield for your hate

I don't trust or respect that ploy. I can just as easily use the victims are a shield for my beliefs about justice... like in the case of Slobodan Milosevic:

I'm sure the victims of Milosevic's cruelty and inhuman tyranny praise his trial. To be brought before a court of law may be the first step towards closure: confronting the perpetrator with their crimes.

Talk is cheap. Don't use someone else's pain to make your talk even cheaper.

Eric

[Rhiannon12866]

These men were reprehensible excuses for human beings

but getting into the business of assassination is a very dangerous precedent for the U.S. I am stunned when I hear the unlawful practices that are taking place everyday. If Uday and Qusay were guilty of crimes against their countrymen, they should have been tried in a court of law. It is taking a page from Saddam's playbook, or that of the Saudis, to execute perpetrators without benefit of trial. These assassinations have not only deprived the world of much needed information that these men might have been able to supply, but also deprived the Iraqi people of their revenge.

[Rhiannon12866]

22. These men were reprehensible excuses for human beings

but getting into the business of assassination is a very dangerous precedent for the U.S. I am stunned when I hear the unlawful practices that are taking place everyday. If Uday and Qusay were guilty of crimes against their countrymen, they should have been tried in a court of law. It is taking a page from Saddam's playbook, or that of the Saudis, to execute perpetrators without benefit of trial. These assassinations have not only deprived the world of much needed information that these men might have been able to supply, but also deprived the Iraqi people of their revenge.

[Minstrel Boy]

7. Murder Inc.

It underscores that this isn't a war so much as it is a criminal enterprise. Just Gangland USA taking over a rival's operation.

Even the Nazi leadership were accorded trials. But of course, since another Reichstag Fire and the adoption of the "preventative war" doctrine, there's been something of a polar shift in historical analogies.

[KoKo]

12. Murder, Inc. .........that's the truth...and what they are making America.

It's a radical change in how we view ourselves and frightening if the average American doesn't now see what's going on.

And, that those people who want the "Ten Commandments" posted everywhere and make declarations of how America is really a "Christian Country" don't get that the "Fundie Crowd aligned with the PNAC" is the most dangerous threat to the US we've ever faced, is beyond me.

This "blood lust" to "Kill" won't just stop with Afghanistan and Iraq.........it's here with the Coulters and the Media inciting people into a fever pitch of animosity and anger..........

It will destroy us from within.........:nuke:

[diamond14]

11. letter to my congressional reps (feel free to use it)...yes, it's BAD!

email your U.S. House of Representatives
http://www.house.gov/

email your U.S. Senate
http://www.senate.gov/

_____________________________________________

Dear Senator Warner,

By using our military to conduct political assassinations, Bush has set a dangerous precedent.

Bush's display of bloated and bloody human heads is unacceptable and WRONG. By gloating over his trophy kill on TV, Bush has lent a very undignified crassness to the White House, and he has lowered the Presidency to the level of street thugs.


With all due respect,

AMEN1234

[KoKo]

13. Thank you, Amen!!! I am going to do this.........we have to do something

Those of us who are outraged have to express it.........more letters.......millions of letters.......

[CatWoman]

18. No, KoKo -- you're not the only one

[KoKo]

19. Kick for "Amen's" Solution of contacting our Reps....this is what we need

to do!

This is PNAC's "Final Solution" for American Foreign Policy....Assassination! Those of us who marched against this "Invasion" at least should be faxing, and e-mailing.

Call your local Senator or House Reps office in your district. They are "on vacation" but it will still register.

Liddy Dole, John Edwards, Brad Miller and David Price here in NC are on notice from me!!!

"Amen" has a good starting point for the message. I used it....but went further.

Can we do this? One more action for those of us who were offended? Those of us who fear for what this means as one more step in our Imperialist Foreign Police of the BFEE?

[baldguy]

20. A free and open democraticly based society . . .

. . . should NOT be in the assassination business.

But the, The US gov't is a wholly-owned subsidiary of BushCo Inc.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

21. I'm glad they are gone.

They were evil psychotic rapists. They fed prisoners to lions. They fed men into paper shredding machines. They raped teenage girls in front of their families. Go to the Amnesty International website for more details. Death was too good for them. There is a war going on. These men were the leaders of the opposition fighters. I call it combat. You call it an outrage. I respect your opinion. However, I suspect the majority of Americans agree with me. Truly, I'm not trying to disrespect you. I just don't want you to hold your breath while waiting for the rest of us to get outraged. It ain't gonna happen. And when their murdering father is captured or killed, don't expect any outrage then either.

Respectfully written.

[Rhiannon12866]

23. No one is disputing the depth of their cruelty and savagery

The reason that people here are outraged is that we are supposed to be a civilized nation. Uday and Qusay felt that they were above the law. We are not, or shouldn't be.

Iraqi people were deprived of their chance at revenge. Summarily executing the accused, without benefit of trial, is something I would expect from Saddam's regime, not the United States of America.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. I disagree

I have seen several people question the reports of their abuses here.

But either way, in a combat situation, if they don't give up, then they get shot.

[Rhiannon12866]

29. You have to know that I don't condone their assassination

This is taking a page from Saddam's playbook.

As for their savagery, I have watched a couple of documentaries, watched cable news and read articles on-line. But, you could be right, this could be an exaggeration. But I do not believe it is. Uday was in charge of Iraq's Olympic athletes. If they didn't win, they were punished, like having a hand chopped off. I saw an interview with a former athlete, who had just this done to him. He regrets Uday is dead and he can never exact revenge. Qusay, his father's favorite and heir apparent, was indoctrinated into the murder business, by Saddam, at age 13. These were not nice guys. But they should have been tried and answerable to the Iraqi people.

Tonight, on MSNBC, they said that if Saddam is captured, he will be tried in Iraq, rather than by a multi-national war-crimes tribunal or by the U.S. It's not going to happen. He is going to be summarily executed and I don't know why they even bother to debate this. Bush* intended to eliminate Saddam since the start of his war.:shrug:

[KoKo]

24. There are many more places than Iraq where this is going on and has gone

on! The point is.......will we rule the world to stop this? Will the blood of our soldiers stop this....will they be turned into the very depravity they've been sent their to stop because of the brutal conditions they are faced with.....and would Bush I and II care if what you say the Saddam brothers were doing Iraq were going on here? For instance Tom DeLay types involved with pedophile or porn rings, prostitution.......whatever? They probably are already.....being the "new mafia." but I won't go there.

It's the HYPOCRACY!!!!!!! This stuff has always gone on.........do we rape our own country economically to get involved with what other countries are doing?

I say NO! Let us clean up our own act before we go after others for what they do. Then we CAN BE a BEACON OF HOPE, not a BEACON OF HYPOCRACY.

That's just what I think about what you said.....and why I disagree.

[Rhiannon12866]

25. There are many more places than Iraq where this goes on in the world

North Korea comes to kind, immediately. What about Liberia? Are we expected to invade and occupy all of these countries? Saudi Arabia is one of the worst and this is finally making it into the press. 15 of 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, but they don't even make it into Bush*s ``axis of evil'' because they are BFEE allies in big oil. They have one of the most repressive regimes on the planet, regularly execute their own citizens,without benefit of trial, and supress women. Sound familiar?

Plus, the Saudi royal family supported Islamic charities that funded al-Qaeda. American intelligence knew this for years, but looked the other way because of oil interests. This is just beginning to come to light. It is surely the season that much of the 9/11 report is still censored.

Yes, there is hypocrisy. And I agree, we need to attend to issues at home before becoming a very biased policeman for the rest of the world.:-(

[leanings]

26. You know, it would have been nice to take them alive.

I haven't seen anything that said the SpecOps guys went in there with the intent to kill them all. If they'd wanted to do that, they just would have hit the building with an Apache and called it a day.

But once they started shooting back, the folks on the ground aren't left with a lot of options. Tear gas just isn't really effective in a situation like that, and if they were in a fortified area with weapons they probably had gas masks available anyway. Somebody has to go in relatively close to put down a lot of gas, too, and while capturing those guys would have been nice I wouldn't have spent the lives of any US soldiers on it. Other methods just aren't available; there's no active sonic disruptor weapon or any other non-lethal equipment issued yet that would have fit the bill. Wait too long, i.e. attempt to starve them out, and you've got a rallying point for anti US protestors and fighters; more chances for people to get killed.

I just don't really see the option out here.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

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[sweetheart]

32. i'm sure the branch davidians would agree...

That being summarily executed is much more "Democratic".

(i'll leave out the bit reciprocating saddam's sons to the american administration) :-) I only used "awol", it could have been any damn bloke on a slab who went awol.... ?

The democratic war party is hardly one to claim the moral high ground in not executing those it opposes, just it seems under all american policy, that we mourn the loss of evil shit dictators in foriegn countries, but less police murder our own civilians without charge.

Given this cultural preference for murdering only americans, wouldn't it be nice if they picked a city where lives.

[MrPrax]

35. Amen...

But you mentioned an interesting comparison as to why a 3 month siege ended in 20 kids being burned alive and why two monsters were simply killed after a couple of hours...
Or M.O.V.E. being incinerated
Or any other domestic squabble requiring 'justice' and 'freedom'
Why didn't they smoke out Hussein kin like they did to Noreiga with a couple of ACDC songs and disciplined troops?

[Composed Thinker]

31. They fired on the US troops, so the troops fired back

It's not as if this was like a lynching.

[oldcoot]

34. You raise some valid concerns

I do not believe that the U.S. Army had any choice but to kill Saddam's sons because they wanted to martyr themselves. However, I agree that the Bush administration could have handled this matter with more class. I understand that the Bush administration wanted photos of the dead men to prove to the Iraqis that they are dead but there was no need to show these photos in the United States. Uday and Qusay did not brutalize the American public. I believe that the reason we got to see these photos was because Bush wanted to show off his trophies.

The reason that there is no outrage over the deaths is that these two men were very bad men. Not surprisingly, many feel that they deserved what they got. Some have even used their deaths as evidence to support the claim that the U.S. invasion liberated the Iraqi people. These individuals have ignored the fact that thousands of innocent Iraqis have died in the process and that the Iraqis are just as miserable under U.S. rule as they were under Saddam Hussein.

I also read the earlier article in the Boston Globe and was concerned about the Bush administration's debate over whether or not to simply kill Saddam Hussein (this is a link to the original story: http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/213/nation/US_debates_bid_to_kill_Hussein_and_avoid_trial+.shtml.) While I have no problem with American soldiers killing Saddam Hussein if he decides to become a martyr, I do feel that he should be taken alive if he decides to surrender. Certainly assassinating Hussein could establish a very dangerous precedent. If the U.S. assassinates Hussein, the governments of other nations may decide that they have should have the same right to kill other nations' heads-of-state. This could lead to another war and eventually threaten U.S. national security. The Bush administration had better think carefully before opening this can of worms.

[Rhiannon12866]

36. I agree with what you have said here

I was horrified at the coverage these horrific photos received. Normally, we receive a warning when about to be confronted with anything this graphic and we can decide whether or not we can handle it. There was no such warning in this case. I have seen some pretty upsetting things in recent months and thought I could probably handle it. These were incredibly grisly and actually made me sick.

And they were everywhere, on the front pages of my newsletters, newspaper front pages, on cable and even on my local news. I tried watching Hardball - I was interested in hearing what Matthews' guests had to say - but it seemed like he returned to film footage of the bodies every 15 seconds! I saw them before and after they were cleaned up and shaved and from every conceivable angle. You are right, we did not need to see this.

You are also right that these were reprehensible excuses for human beings. I watched a documentary recently on them and they were even worse than I imagined. However, there were two other people killed in this hail of gunfire, one of them a 14-year-old boy. The American press has largely ignored this. Also, I have seen and read reactions to this assassination by the Iraqi people. They feel that by not bringing Uday and Qusay to trial for their crimes, we deprived them of their revenge.

I agree with you about Bush*. He wanted to display his trophies. He always seems to smirk when he talks about ``taking out'' somebody.

As for Saddam, himself, there is much discussion now about whether he should be tried by th U.S., an international war crimes court or the Iraqi people. The prevailing sentiment seem to be that the Iraqi people should try him. I agree with this; I think it's something they need to do before they can move on. But talk is cheap. He is not going to brought to trial any more than his sons were. We are setting a very dangerous precedent here.

[thermodynamic]

37. I wholeheartedly agree!

And why didn't Bush give the Bin Laden family equal treatment instead of purportedly helping them after 9/11?!

This is another questionable MO on the part of Bush* and his administration.

[Perky]

38. It is not an assasination....

if they shot first.


I am quite sure the preference would have been to take them alive if only to try and find out where Dad is hiding and ofcousre there is the PR Value of a show trial.

[whoYaCallinAlib]

39. We can play with words all day.

The only thing that matters now is that these two creatures will never again torture, mutilate, rape or murder innocent people.

[mlawson]

40. Only in one historical case: Hitler.

That would have been a very different thing. WHY didn't FDR and the British do it, in 1936, after Kristallnacht???