Something I've been thinking about re: 911

[Tony_FLADEM]

People always say "do you really believe Bush would allow 3,000 people to be murdered" when defending him on 9-11.

Does the fact that Bush as governor executed more inmates than any governor in history and the fact that he mocked Karla Faye Tucker with that "please don't kill me" remark provide a basis to believe he would allow people to be murdered to suit his purpose?

I am not equating those death row inmates with the innocent people that were murdered in 911 -- it's just something I've been thinking about.

[arcane1]

1. as Paris says in "What Would You Do"

"you think a couple thousand lives mean shit to KILLERS?"

[Don Claybrook]

29. "...swear to God, we're the ones, ain't no villains". Great song. n/t

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

2. Throw his mother's quote about casualties in Iraq back in their face...

You remember: "Why should I waste my beautiful mind on that?"
Human lives mean nothing to the Bush family.
Nothing

[Bombtrack]

3. that's a really rediculous comparison

even if you aren't "equating" them.

Over 3 quarters of the US public believes in capital punishment. Are those people likely to support genocide and a national tragedy?

It's paranoid, offensively unproven babble like this that keeps this message board unable to be associated with important political operatives in any visible way

[Curious Dave]

6. Thank you Bombtrack

For saying what you did.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. They are supporting it now

Anybody who lived in Germany in the 30's, China in the 50's or in the United States today ought to have a pretty good idea of just what people will support.

[Tony_FLADEM]

10. I am not equating capital punishment with a national tragedy.

I'm just saying death doesn't seem to bother Bush. Under his watch the death penalty went from fewer than 20 to almost 200 and the death penalty system was a real mess. I was just wondering if his apparent passiveness about death could refute that "do you really believe he would allow..." argument.

[Bombtrack]

17. those people were found guilty of capital offenses by a jury

it's not even close to being in the same category.

Clinton and Bob Graham probably had a couple of dozen people executed, does that mean that they allowed OKC bombing to happen and covered it up in the white house and senate?

A policy of capital punishment, wether you use it at unusually high levels or not, does not in any way indicate evil.

[Tony_FLADEM]

23. Bush executed more people than any governor in american history.

I remember reading back in 2000 where he executed a woman who was a domestic violence victim because she killed her abusive husband. It doesn't indicate evil. You said 75% of people support capital punishment. It indicates a willingness to tolerate death in high numbers for some other purpose. Bush hasn't benefited from 9-11? He hasn't missed a single opportunity to use that tragedy to get what he wants.

[BeFree]

11. That's why it's called Underground

This message board would hardly enjoy being overrun with important political operatives (IPO).

Those important political operatives are the reason this country is in such a mess. Those IPO are responsible for allowing the selection 2000 to succeed. Those IPO are the reason 9/11 has not gotten a complete and impartial hearing.

We don't need their association. They do, however, need to read what we have to say. They just might learn something new. Something bold. They just might learn they need to change their ways if they want to really help America.

[Old and In the Way]

25. Especially since George W. Bush has been such a strong and

untiring voice in getting the truth out about what happened on 9/11/01.

Really, how could anyone not admire this man's leadership role in getting at the root cause of why 2500+ Americans died that day.

[Sliverofhope]

4. Let's not forget

1,000 Iraqis, 1,000 Afghans. Of course, they ain't white folk. But there were estimations that Saddam might use WMD if attacked. Of course, I do believe that they knew from the beginning there were no WMD, but still, there's putting troops at risk.

Anyway, I don't buy the he wouldn't do it argument. There's room for, he didn't or he couldn't, but wouldn't seems silly given human history.

[Bombtrack]

7. Even France and Dean admit there were WMD

and of course that's a separate issue

Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld are complete assholes, but there is no proof whatsoever that have ever shown the capability of pure evil.

A word that is thrown around way too freely by the political fringe

[Sliverofhope]

14. I dunno about that

Arming Saddam Hussein? Being party to his deeds? If Cheney and Rumsfeld aren't in on the evil tent I guess Hussein isn't either.

Granted, they haven't marched millions into death camps, but that's a pretty high mark to reach. I don't see how cynical and self serving actions over a lifetime don't also signify evil.

[Sliverofhope]

16. So, then they believed there were WMD

and marched our troops into Baghdad being warned by the CIA that Saddam would use WMD if his regime was threatened, and the troops were improperly equipped to deal with a biological, chemical, or nuclear attack?

This was on my conscience and I'm 100 degrees of separation from Bush and Company. How is that not an evil act?

[Bombtrack]

19. what? Nothing you just said was part of a coherent thought

"being warned by the CIA that Saddam would use WMD if his regime was threatened"

The CIA said it was a possibility

"and the troops were improperly equipped to deal with a biological, chemical, or nuclear attack?"

They were equipped and trained to deal with just those type of attacks in fact, except not nuclear, which no troops would ever equip for considering first of all Saddam couldn't have had nukes

and your last sentence makes the least amount of sense of the bunch

[Sliverofhope]

21. Here's the article regarding the brits

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=265878

They were not prepared. I know I read something about the Americans as well, but that's buried deep.

I will also point out to you the use of depleted uranium weapons and the cancer it causes to our troops and to the places we occupy.

[aquart]

20. I'm sorry, but how do you define "pure evil"?

Conning people out of educating their children and having decent jobs and good health and a safe future is NOT "pure evil"?

If we could prove the old tale about George putting firecrackers in frogs to see them explode, would that qualify or would you excuse it on the grounds of youth?

They have sent young Americans and others to die for a LIE. But that was not evil?

They planned to invade Iraq years before George was even President and took advantage of our grief to bring us more death? But that was not evil?

I'm so sorry if calling a spade a spade makes me a fringe. But how does being an "asshole" preclude being "pure evil"?

LOOK AT WHAT THEY'VE DONE. Name one thing, one moment that you could testify to as NOT being evil.

[bobbyboucher]

5. Have you thought about this theory?

The players got played.

[DuctapeFatwa]

8. Kim Jong Il said in an interview a couple of years ago, when asked

about the numbers of his citizens dying in the famine, that he could afford to lose up to 70% of his population and still have enough for defense.

It's hard not to wonder what percentages were tossed around by the PNAC bunch.

[TXvote]

12. Don't undercount Texas

Depending on how you measure the number of Texans dead because of all of BiffCo's policies, you could factor in well over 3000 lives. Over the last decade it seems Texas leadership has operated under a " dead citizen is a cheaper citizen" policy. 6,000 deaths per year due to air quality in the Houston area alone. Heck, we're still dropping like flies. Ouch.

Peace,
Teresa
www.votervirgin.com

[info being]

13. Not to mention the fact that he murdered 3,000 Iraqi civillians

A moral person does not consider nationality. Murder is always wrong.

[deminflorida]

15. I think they'd sacrifice another American city if they thought they

were going to lose the election and that hold they have on power. Maybe I'm just being paranoid.

[MoonRiver]

22. I don't think you're being paranoid.

Think Nazi Germany. History always repeats itself if humankind forgets its lessons.

[Old and In the Way]

27. If you were guility by reason of either benign incompetence or

a total misread of the coming "event", well, that would still make you a murderer, right? Might even make you elligible for Texas-style justice.

Now, if you were in the position where you could keep the evidence under wraps only as long as you controlled the government....well, I guess that would make you a national security risk to the rest of us. What would a desperate person do to avoid being implicated in an offense that violated the oath of office and whose inaction (at best) caused the deaths of 2500 Americans?

That's why they cannot, under any circumstances, ever lose control of the Executive and Legislative branches. Watch how a bunch of guilty people will do anything, I mean anything, to avoid their judgement day....

[banana republican]

18. Prescott Bush

Profited from the slave labor at Auschwitz.

What make you think that he gives a * about the people.....

[Dirk39]

24. 3000 aren't enough...

General Franks has nonetheless identified with cynical accuracy the precise scenario whereby military rule will be established:

"a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event."
link

Reading all of these statements combined, I'm speechless. In a way, Bushs' statements about terrorism would justify to send the whole Bush-administration to Guantanoma-Bay, wouldn't they?

They openly prepare a fashism,
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[seemslikeadream]

26. Three million lives have been lost in Congo since1998

War in Congo has claimed over three million lives since 1998 alone. Innocent civilians have been brutalized, massacred, raped and tortured by all parties to the conflict. It began with the U.S. sponsered invasion of Rwanda in 1994, and followed with two subsequent U. S. sponsored invasions of Congo (1996 and 1998). These are not the simple "civil wars" declared by the western press. Even the Rwanda "genocide" (in 1994) has to some extent been manufactured in the American mind to serve the mythology of tribalism. Meanwhile green berets and military advisors and Pentagon officals have participated from the blackboard to battlefield.

Sierra Leone, Angola, Sudan, Rwanda and Congo are wars where factions are armed with U.S. made weapons (M16s SAMs, tanks) where U.S. covert forces undertake brutal secret missions and psychological operations accountable to no one behind the headlines. They are wars where the CIA is deeply and maliciously entrenched in subverting democracy and orchestrating chaos that is expediently advertised as such by our dubious media. At the roots, however, these are wars like any other war.

Essential to the superalloys and weaponry of the global economy of war are Congo's coblat, uranium and columbium tantalite (coltan), Cobalt is elemental to nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons, tank armor, industrial furnaces and aerospace and for 50 years the CIA has insured the free flow of cobalt out of Congo.
http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/WorldNews/48471/3/collapsed/5/o/1

A big palyer in the eastern Congo is Barrick Gold Corp. headquartered in Canada. It is the world's second-largest gold producer after Anglo-American of South Africa.

Guess what company George Bush Sr. is an international consultant for. Guess what company George Bush Sr. gave $10 billion in mining rights on US public land citing a 1870's mining law to just before he left office. Guess what company gave georgie jr. a ton of money for his election campaign.

Three million lives - Does anyone really think 3000 means that much to a bush

[Dirk39]

30. Thanx for posting this...

When I did first read about the backgrounds of this conflict, I couldn't believe my eyes. Even the Hutos and Tutsis are products of colonialism.
And nearly noone knows this.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[Devlzown]

28. I don't have any problem believing that.

Many Americans seem to think of Bush as a tough guy. I see beneath his swagger an underlying sadistic cruelty. Many states, for better or worse,have the death penalty and it's often the governor's job to carry out executions. One cannot blame Bush for that, blame the state of Texas. But not all governors crack jokes about the person they're about to execute. Especially governors who call themselves born again Christians. A very small man does things like that. A man too small to be President of the United States.