3 Long Years

[BeFree]

Three years ago today.

Isn't today the anniversary of the Stolen Election?

I'll never forgive, and I'll never forget.

[ringmastery]

1. it probably wouldn't have mattered

Under the standard of FL recount only counting over-votes, Gore wouldn't have won if they let things go legitamately.

At least with the supreme court deciding, it gives us something to hate. If they let the recount procede and we lost (and we were losing), we would have looked like the fools for dragging it out.

[carolinayellowdog]

3. Overvotes and undervotes would have been counted

according to Terry Lewis, in which case a Gore victory would be a sure thing.

[glarius]

5. How could you have lost?....Wasn't there a problem with 1000's of

uncounted votes in predominately black neighbourhoods...Not to mention the ones who unintenionally voted for Pat Buchanan etc???...If this had been done legitimately, wouldn't it have gone to Gore???...:)

[ringmastery]

6. we would have lost

under the FL supreme court standard that was put into place.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/media_watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html

[BurtWorm]

12. Except that Judge Terry Lewis had drafted and was ready to fax

an order for all counties to include overvotes as well as undervotes, according Newsweek's David Kaplan, who obtained a copy of the draft. It's gone down the memory hole--although it might be at memoryhole.com, come to think of it.

[ringmastery]

13. really?

I never know that.

wow.

so we would have won the recount and then what? two sets of delegates to the house and constitutional hell?

[carolinayellowdog]

16. Constitutional hell beats unconstitutional hell

While we wouldn't consider the rules under which Republicans prevailed to be fair or right, it still would be far more acceptable than the way they did prevail, which was making up the rules to suit themselves.

[BurtWorm]

18. That's not constitutional hell.

That's constitutional procedure. Why would two sets of delgates be hell?

Look, even if Congress went ahead and voted along partisan lines and Bush "won" anyway, that's what the Constitution laid out to happen. The reputation of Congress would have been unaffected. People expect them to be partisan. And there is a chance, a slim, slim chance, that they would have felt pressure to vote for the slate they truly believed to be more legitimate. But there is no constitutional role for the Supreme Court in presidential elections, least of all as an arbiter of who wins one. The Supreme Court shot off its own foot with that decision, and actually exacerbated the Constitutional crisis rather than resolve it.

[ringmastery]

19. wouldn't the senate have picked VP?

And the democrats controlled it?

So we could have had Bush as President and Gore as VP?

[BurtWorm]

24. That's possible. I don't know.

Would have been an even more interesting time, in my opinion.

[BeFree]

7. "Probably" doesn't cut it

I expected the law to be followed, not set aside because of a "probability".

I expected the facts to rule.

Even the recount made by the press proved Gore won Fla.
Not probably-- Proof.

[BurtWorm]

9. Ridiculous!

Gore won in 4 of 6 NORC recounts of the vote in FL. The two he lost were the Bush standard (recounting only undervotes statewide) and the Gore standard (recounting only the four counties the Gore campaign focused on). But if the entire state were recounted thoroughly (overvotes and undervotes) according to the Florida standard (determining the "clear intention of the voter") Gore would have won, no matter how strict the scenario. Gore was robbed of Florida. Don't ever forget it.

It's very probable that even if the count had been permitted to go on as it should have from the get-go, according to the Florida standard, the Bush people would have followed their constitutional prerogative to have Congress decide which electors to accept as "legitimate"--Bush's and the Florida state legislature's or Gore's--in which case, knowing how honorable Republicans aren't, Bush would have "won" anyway. But it would have been a sign of the seriousness with which Democrats take the process and their refusal to let political fortune win the day.

I could accept an argument more like the second paragraph of this post explaining why Gore probably would have lost. I can't accept the "Gore legitimately lost Florida"{ argument, least of all from Democrats, because the evidence plainly does not support it.

[terrya]

2. What gets me about that infamous decision...

Was the reaction of Sandra Day O' Connor, one of the justices behind that shameful decision, who for the life of her couldn't figure out why so many people were outraged by "Bush vs Gore".

Memo to Sandy: well fucking DUH. I guess the complete hijacking of the election by the right wing controlled Supreme Court just wasn't that big of a deal, apparently.

[GainesT1958]

4. I was hoping soneone would point that out...

BEFREE--And I'm glad you did!

This is, indeed, the day democracy--at least at the presidential election level--ws taken from us and "administered" by five Supreme Court Justices, upon whom the Constitution gives NO authority in the election of a president should the Electoral Vote total not determine a winner. The election should have been put in the hands of the House, and while--given the House's make-up--that probably would have meant a Dub victory, it would still have been under the method prescribed by the Constitution, (though of course we still could refer to him as the "unelected one"! :eyes: ).

But, let us always remember, and vow NEVER to allow an election to be STOLEN from us again--and the choice of the people not allowed to serve!:mad:

B-)

[nn2004]

8. What if in 2004 the Dem wins the popular vote and loses the electorate?

Would there be protests or other action?

[PATRICK]

10. alternate history was covered

Even if? Has no one paid attention to the second scenario? There was already a first slate of electors that the GOP would undoubtedly have chosen over the razor thin recount vistory of Gore.

Was anyone going to concede the ultimate victory or fairness of Gore's Florida victory? The press? Virtuous GOP Reps?

That ultimately ugly drama would have played out with the same verbal flimflam and bulling ahead, bowling over of Gore. It would have been far far uglier though ALL the players would have been revealed in their complicity. SCOTUS took the hit for the party and partly even deflected the crime blame away from Bush and the GOP.

I think we are too traumatized yet to understand the full hit democracy took and how many were all united in committing the crime and how many choices and bases were rabidly covered.

The thing revealed is that we won, they stole, democracy fell. Who llined up on what side and the bankruptcy of "bipartisan" compromise was the test Christians pray daily never comes due.

[BeFree]

14. How Stolen was it?

I think we are too traumatized yet to understand the full hit democracy took and how many were all united in committing the crime and how many choices and bases were rabidly covered.

The depth of deceit is astounding. The number of leaders who willfully went along with the corruption would amaze most people.

Gore, imo, realized just what he was up against, and decided that he either did not have enough support to win, or that the battle would put blood on the streets.

One wonders if he now regrets not carrying the battle further?

[ringmastery]

15. what else could he have done?

Once the supreme court ruled, wasn't it over?

[BeFree]

17. It ain't over yet!

Some may bend over and take it, I refuse!

Had Gore not given up things would be noticably different. Had he pointed out just how badly the People were getting screwed, this regime would not have had the easy ride they've enjoyed.

[dreissig]

21. Why Was Gore Gracious?

Gore's decision to be gracious about his questionable "defeat" was appalling. I think it was ego-driven. Gore did a lot of tin-eared things in that campaign; and his call to unify behind Bush was the most tin-eared of all. Somebody should have said to Gore, "It's not about you."

[dreissig]

20. What Gore Could Have Done

Gore annoyed me by being way-y-y-y-y too gracious about his "defeat". He could at least have worked the ref for the next questionable decision. In his egotism Gore decided to be magnanimous. It was one more politically tin-eared decision Gore made in a series of them.

If Gore had squawked, it would have undermined the legitimacy of the Bush presidency - and that's how it should be. The Bush presidency is not legitimate and doesn't deserve the unified support of the American people.

There wouldn't necessarily have been blood in the streets, but Gore's opposition to the illegitimate Bush regime might have prevented the Iraq war. Gore should have been the anti-President; instead he became a co-conspirator.

[Q]

26. Gore didn't have support of the Democratic party...

...so he didn't have much choice but to 'concede'. It's silly to call him a 'co-conspirator'. One person couldn't have fought this on his own. Even Lieberman was calling for him to concede.

[tom_paine]

23. Bullshit because nowhere in the Constitution does it mention

the Judicial Arm of the Coup (formerly the "Supreme Court") in arbitration of pResdential elections.

Further, Thomas and Scalia and Rheinquist ALL had relatives or spoused involved with the Busheviks, which should have been in a Free Country enough to make them recuse themselves.

Breach of Judicial Ethics, anyone?

And of course, there's the little tidbit that for the first time in 225 years, a decision was issued by the Judicial Arm of the Coup (formerly the "Supreme Court") that specifically stated the decision would SET NO PRECEDENT!

There were PLENTY of grounds upon which to keep fighting.

I also wonder if Gore regrets not carrying on. Was unification of the nation and avoiding Civil War (which is eventually going to be fought anyway) worth unleahsing Totalitarianism upon the World a la Nazi Germany (albeit "kinder and gentler" for the moment) AGAIN?

[tom_paine]

11. kick

[kath]

22. A day that will live in infamy. December 12, 2000

[kath]

25. kick

I've been sad all day, tinking about that infamous day three years ago...