Question about Dean and tax cuts

[Killarney]

I'm undecided right now between Dean, Clark, and Kerry.

To be honest, the only thing that stops me from picking Dean right now as my candidate is the tax issue. I think that Dean, Clark, or Kerry would all be fantastic presidents, but I really want to cast my vote for who can beat Bush (and I do think that they all have a chance to do that, but I have one concern). I think that Clark and Kerry's plan for taxes (repeal the cuts only for the wealthy, let the middle class keep their tax cut) are going to resonate well with the independents, swing voters, and some moderate Republicans who are disenfranchized with Bush's war-mongering.

So, even though I really like Dean, I'm concerned that wanting to repeal the tax cuts for everyone would go against him in the general election.

So, my question is... would it be possible for his stance to change? If, for example, he and Clark teamed up on a ticket... is there a chance that he would adopt Clark's plan of only repealing the tax cuts for those who make >$200K?

I, personally, wouldn't mind having my tax cut repealed because his plans of what he's going to do with that money are fantastic. But, I just don't think that the independents and swing voters would support him for that.

I'm interested in hearing opinions. Especially from Dean supporters. Thanks in advance. :)

[truthspeaker]

1. I'm pretty sure Dean said he'd only repeal the cuts for incomes >$100K

I'll look for a reference. I think even Clark's $200K is too low, and it should be $500K.

[truthspeaker]

3. OK I can't find the $100K reference on his site

It just says "repeal the Bush tax cuts". I think he should change that position, but he should also keep reminding people that for most of the middle class, the Bush tax cut was $150 or $300. I make $35K a year and my tax cut was only $150.

[maddezmom]

11. and hate to say this, but 100k in a city like....

LA, DC, Chicago, or NYC is middle-class.

[NewGuy]

2. I think you are right

One of the reasons the Repugs site for liking Dean is his plan to repeal the tax cuts. Whatever the nay sayers are saying, everyone is going to do their taxes for this year between now and the election and most Americans will see some reduction. Those with children, who also tend to earn less, will see the most. This is a powerful incentive to not vote for Dean unless he changes his stance.

Another thing the Repugs site often is his anti-war stance, which won't hurt as bad because America breaks about 60/40 in favor of the war currently and this has been up and down some since the "mission accomplished" fiasco. No telling where it will be in Nov.

Third is his support for gay unions. America also breaks pretty close to 60/40 on this issue but they are softening on it as time goes on. Continued pressure from hollwood via television shows and movies will help this a lot.

I think the taxes are the worst issue Dean is facing. Even if he backs off some the Repugs will continue to try to define him as tax and spend. Democrats will not allow him to abandon the tax increases as they feel that the tax cuts hurt social programs. If he can properly define the diference between the Vermont Civil Union law and gay marraige he can win on that issue. His anti-war stance is new found and could be softened or abandoned once he wins the nomination.

[truthspeaker]

4. anti-Iraq-war and civil unions

Dean says civil unions is a state issue. If he can keep clarifying that and playing up that it's civil unions and not marriage, I don't think that will hurt him much, especially if he can attract lots of young voters. The greatest opposition to civil unions comes from the religious right, who are lost to us already because of the abortion issue.

I don't think he should back-pedal at all on his anti-Iraq-war stance. There are a lot of military families who feel betrayed by Shrub. If we can get traction on the profiteering, the lack of planning, and the deception I think Dean's position on the Iraq war could be an asset, not a detriment. The Iraq war is bad for US national security, we just need to get the message out.

I'm more worried about his tax stance. Hopefully he can point out to people that their local and state taxes have risen and vital services declined because the federal government has cut so many progams.

[NewGuy]

8. It seems we agree fairly closely

The issue becomes one of who defines the issues. If the Rethugs can define his anti-war stance as wanting to pull out and abandon the Iraqi people again, he may have a problem. Several of the other candidates have taken the position that going in was wrong but now we are committed and must adjust our policy to win the peace. Has Dean taken that stand or is he still for pulling the troops out and letting the UN take over?

Similarly, if the Rethugs succesfully equate civil unions with gay marraige his position will not resonate with the people. Strangely, the polls show that a small majority favor civil unions but a small majority are against gay marraige. Again it is in the fine points and who gets to define the issue.

[swittersnc]

5. it could be a non-issue

if he continues to drive home the point that while a federal tax cut was put in place for the middle class, state and local taxes (particularly property taxes) have had to increase to offset the losses.
add to that the exponential rise in healthcare and insurances costs and the token tax "cut" that most of us received is completely gone.
i agree with you that unless he can connect those dots for people, it's going to be a long row to hoe on taxes. but if he can show how the "cut," in the end, did nothing to improve the standard of living for the vast majority of people then it could be a non-issue.

[KaraokeKarlton]

7. And they'll also get their property tax bills before the election

In NH alone their state property taxes went up $100 million this year. Their schools are broke and they have no state income or sales taxes. Their property taxes will be going up again because a lot of their schools are going to fail the unfunded mandates. Bush didn't fund those mandates because of the tax cuts. Since Dean makes the connection between Bush's cuts and rising local and state taxes, rising college tuition, rising health care premiums, etc he can sell the repealing of the cuts without a difficult time. What good is a $300 check from George Bush when those very checks cause your property taxes to go up by $3000?

[NewGuy]

9. Again it is a fine point and depends on control...

of the message. Dean attempts to show that your taxes went up in state and down in federal and shrub attempts to show that they went down in fed and he doesn't run your state. I'm not sure how many states have gone up anyway. I know in Florida, where I live now, they have not and in New Mexico where I was two years ago they have gone down.

[KaraokeKarlton]

13. Well Jeb Bush is a Republican

So Florida will see more cut services and shifts of costs to localities. Eventually it's going to hit somewhere, and if it isn't in porperty taxes it will be a drastic loss of funding for social services and putting the burden on local communities to fund things themselves. That means cuts in local town budgets, lousy roads, bad emergency services and shitty schools. It's more obvious in state like NH who have less tax revenue coming in to make the necessary cuts and still cover enough to disguise it for a little while. Even those states that have managed to hide the problems somewhat are in for a rude awakening before November 2004. Americans are NOT going to be happy at all.

[Eloriel]

6. Non-issue

Here's why:

1. No one wanted the tax cuts to begin with. In all polls they preferred fiscal sanity and spending on social issues.

2. Most people didn't get much if anything. Meantime local taxes incl propeerty taxes have gone up. Edit -- yeah, and services are being cut.

3. Dean says, "Would you rather have a tax cut or healthcare for all?" Healthcare would be worth much more than the tax cuts to a lot of people and families.

4. Going bsck to "Clinton era tax levels," another Dean line, reminds people of the prosperity we enjoyed then.

5. Most people are concerned about the deficit and do NOT want to pass it on to their children.

[Killarney]

10. I see what you're saying...

and I really don't want to insult the general public, but I think that a lot of them don't really think past "taxes up" or "taxes down". People interested in politics and people who read up on it like us can understand that it isn't that simple. But a lot of people don't understand.

I'm personally trying to talk to a lot of my undecided friends and they just don't get it. They say, "Well the democrats want to raise taxes, right? We're not doing well financially... I can't afford to pay higher taxes." I tell them, "well, Bush's tax cut wasn't really a tax cut because property taxes in our town doubled so that more than cancelled out the Bush tax cut." And their response? "Well that's because of the Democrats in our town that raised the taxes. That's not Bush's fault."

See? They can't see past it.

[slinkerwink]

15. actually, Dean has said that after he repeals the tax cuts, that he

wants to reform the tax code to make taxes more fair to Americans, which means that he'll simplify the tax code system.

[lastliberalintexas]

16. "Well the democrats want to raise taxes, right?"

That is the problem right there. They don't just say Dean, now do they? They say Democrats. We might be able to sway some of them if we continue to hammer home information about the deficit and what has really happened under Shrub, but we will have to do that no matter who our nominee is.

ANY of our candidates will be painted as the tax and spend liberal- it will be up to us to point out the lie.

And Dean does not want to "raise" taxes on the middle class. He wants to (1) repeal the Shrub tax "cuts" (which are really only loans to expire in 2006) and (2) implement the more progressive tax rates and structure of the Clinton presidency. Whie I think that's an ok plan, I actually hope we can convince him to go to an even more progressive tax structure than what we had under Clinton.

[truthspeaker]

14. My property taxes just went up!

No, wait, that's a late fee.

[muriel_volestrangler]

12. Need the other half of the equation

How much extra money to spend would Dean have by repealing the middle class tax cut? What is the difference in his spending plan, compared with the others?