Black Box Voting, Gaining Media Traction, List of media links!

[ParanoidPat]

I guess this should be enough to prove that you don't need to prove out and out fraud for the people and the media to take notice! :evilgrin:

Way to go BEV! :toast:

Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Kansas City Star, MO - Jul 25, 2003
E-voting system flaws risk election fraud
New Scientist, UK - Jul 25, 2003
Election fraud risks attract wide notice
The Inquirer, UK - Jul 25, 2003
US researchers critical of electronic voting systems
The Age, Australia - Jul 24, 2003
Voting machine fails inspection
CNET News.com - Jul 24, 2003
Security Of E - Voting Systems Seriously Questioned
Information Week - Jul 24, 2003
High-Tech Votes Can Be Hacked, Scientists Say
Reuters, UK - Jul 24, 2003
Study finds computer voting system vulnerable to tampering
San Jose Mercury News, CA - Jul 24, 2003
E-voting flaws risk ballot fraud
MSNBC - Jul 24, 2003
Input sought on voting system Kaptur asks key critic to attend
Toledo Blade, OH - Jul 26, 2003
Voting system among county finalists blasted in study
Cincinnati Post, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Company says study's conclusions on electronic voting mostly...
Athens Banner-Herald, GA - Jul 25, 2003
New voting machines flawed, experts claim
Toledo Blade, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Study: Voting system flawed
Cumberland Times News, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Scientists: High-tech votes can be hacked
Help Net Security, Croatia - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds electronic voting machines are vulnerable
Cleveland Plain Dealer, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Defects reported in voting machines
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Hopkins Team Says Voting Software Has "Stunning Flaws"
WMAR (ABC2), MD - Jul 24, 2003
Voting Machine Study Divides Md. Officials, Experts
Washington Post - Jul 26, 2003
Company defends electronic voting system
Seattle Post Intelligencer, WA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Atlanta Journal Constitution, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Guardian, UK - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
ABC News - Jul 25, 2003
Electronic voting machines security risk
InfoWorld, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Flaw in e-voting software?
FCW.com - Jul 25, 2003
High-tech voting system can be hacked, scientists say
ComputerWorld - Jul 25, 2003
Computer voting systems vulnerable: Study
The Globe and Mail, Canada - Jul 25, 2003
Study: E-voting flaws risk ballot fraud
CNN - Jul 25, 2003
Researchers Call Electronic Voting System Flawed
InternetNews.com - Jul 25, 2003
Study Questions Security Of Md. Electronic Voting
Washington Post, DC - Jul 24, 2003
Voting machine fails inspection
BusinessWeek - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
ABC News - Jul 24, 2003
High-tech votes can be hacked, scientists say
Forbes - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Kansas City Star, MO - Jul 24, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Wilmington Morning Star, NC - Jul 25, 2003
Study Questions Security Of Voting Machines
SanDiego Channel.com, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Company criticizes study that found its...
Charleston Gazette, WV - Jul 25, 2003
Company defends electronic voting system from critics
Raleigh News, NC - Jul 25, 2003
Company defends electronic voting system from critics
Sacramento Bee, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Company says studys conclusions on electronic voting mostly wrong
Access North Georgia, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Company challenges study's conclusions
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Study Finds Computer Voting System Widely Vulnerable to Tampering
WTVM, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Voting machine fails inspection
Boston.com, MA - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Easton Star Democrat, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Security Focus - Jul 25, 2003
Dan Gillmor, the Electronic Frontier Foundation award winning technology columnist for the San Jose Mercury News...
DisInfo.com - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Carolina Channel.com, SC - Jul 25, 2003
Can electronic voting be made "truly" secure?
CIOL, India - Jul 25, 2003
Scientists: High-tech votes can be hacked
TechCentral, Malaysia - Jul 25, 2003
University researchers criticize Diebold Election Systems...
Network World Fusion - Jul 25, 2003
Study warns voting system open to fraud
Charleston Post Courier, SC - Jul 25, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Rapid City Journal, SD - Jul 25, 2003
Touch-screen voting risk of fraud high, study says
Contra Costa Times, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Group challenges voting software
Akron Beacon Journal, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Rockdale Citizen, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Report: Voting machines vulnerable to tampering
Athens Banner-Herald, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Voting system called flawed
Washington Times, DC - Jul 24, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Access North Georgia, GA - Jul 24, 2003
'Flaws' found in computer voting system
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 24, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Times Picayune, LA - Jul 24, 2003
'Significant' flaws found in voting system
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 24, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Biloxi Sun Herald, MS - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
The Ledger, Florida - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Macon Telegraph, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Times Daily, AL - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Grand Forks Herald, ND - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Fort Wayne News Sentinel, IN - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, IN - Jul 25, 2003
Company criticizes study that found its electronic voting system...
Times Picayune, LA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Centre Daily Times, PA - Jul 25, 2003
Company Defends Electronic Voting System
Wichita Eagle, KS - Jul 25, 2003
Company says studys conclusions on electronic voting mostly wrong
Access North Georgia, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Company challenges studys conclusions
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 25, 2003
New voting machines flawed, experts claim
Baku Today, Azerbaijan - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Easton Star Democrat, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
New Orleans Channel.com, LA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WRAL.com, NC - Jul 25, 2003
http://www.nbc5.com/sh/technology/stories/national-technology-235803120030725-090754.html">Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
NBC5.com, IL - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Kansas City Channel.com, MO - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WMUR Channel.com, NH - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WXii 12.com, NC - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WJACtv.com, PA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Omaha Channel.com, NE - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
News4Jax.com, FL - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
SanDiego Channel.com, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Channel Oklahoma.com, OK - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Channel4000.com, MN - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Jackson Channel.com, MS - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
KMGH, CO - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Boston Channel.com, MA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WFtv.com, FL - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WSBtv.com, GA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
INDYchannel.com, IN - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WBAL Channel.com, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WESH.com, FL - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WDIV, MI - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WISC, WI - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Channel Cincinnati.com, MA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WSOCtv.com, NC - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Click10.com, FL - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
FoxReno.com, NV - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Bakersfield Channel.com, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Louisville Channel.com, KY - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Click 2 Houston.com, TX - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
KFOXtv.com, TX - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Milwaukee Channel.com, WI - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Champlain Channel.com, NY - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WTOV9.com, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
WGAL Channel.com, PA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
KTVU.com, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
KSBW Channel.com, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Report Cites Flaws In E-Voting
Pittsburgh Channel.com, PA - Jul 25, 2003
Can electronic voting be made "truly" secure?
CIOL, India - Jul 25, 2003
Scientists: High-tech votes can be hacked
TechCentral, Malaysia - Jul 25, 2003
University researchers criticize Diebold Election Systems...
Network World Fusion - Jul 25, 2003
Study warns voting system open to fraud
Charleston Post Courier, SC - Jul 25, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Rapid City Journal, SD - Jul 25, 2003
Touch-screen voting risk of fraud high, study says
Contra Costa Times, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Defects reported in voting machines
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 25, 2003
Electronic voting slammed by security researchers
Silicon.com - Jul 25, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
The Porterville Recorder, CA - Jul 25, 2003
Group challenges voting software
Akron Beacon Journal, OH - Jul 25, 2003
Study pans system for electronic voting
The Tallahassee Democrat - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Rockdale Citizen, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Report: Voting machines vulnerable to tampering
Athens Banner-Herald, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Voting system called flawed
Washington Times, DC - Jul 24, 2003
Report: Voting machines vulnerable to tampering
Online Athens, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
The Porterville Recorder, CA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Rapid City Journal, SD - Jul 24, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Access North Georgia, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Fort Wayne News Sentinel, IN - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Aberdeen American News, SD - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Wichita Eagle, KS - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Belleville News-Democrat, IL - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Columbus Ledger-Enquirer, GA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Fort Wayne Journal Gazette, IN - Jul 24, 2003
'Flaws' found in computer voting system
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Fort Wayne News Sentinel, IN - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Centre Daily Times, PA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Wilkes Barre Weekender, PA - Jul 24, 2003
Computer Voting Systems Vulnerable
Biloxi Sun Herald, MS - Jul 24, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering
Times Picayune, LA - Jul 24, 2003
Significant flaws found in voting system
Baltimore Sun, MD - Jul 24, 2003

[dbt]

1. KICK!

I am almost as impressed by the list of references as I am DEpressed by the fact that so many of the links are from OUTSIDE the US.

Burn in Hell, AmerikanMedia (just on general prinicples, mind you)!

:evilgrin:
dbt

[BevHarris]

8. NEW - Maryland bought despite refusal of its panel to endorse

Scientists say 'nay' to computerized voting

"Locally, Tom Iler, director of Baltimore County's Office of Information Technology, says the state's decision to adopt touch-screen machines in 2001 came over the strong objections of an advisory panel he served on."

"It's a national security issue," Tenner says. "It could create real political instability."

http://www.sunspot.net/bal-te.vote27jul27,0,4342178.story?coll=bal-home-headlines

[BevHarris]

9. Yes. But governments around the world are being asked to buy

and England is rushing towards Internet voting. Manchester has Diebold touch screens, I believe, and India just stocked up on one million electronic voting machines. Diebold India is huge, but I don't know if India bought Diebold machines.

Foreign press on this (some repeats with above)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/31986.html

Watch this one:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3095705.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993987

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=10676

The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-2952389,00.html

Reuters, UK:
http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=technologyNews&storyID=3155955

ZDNet, UK:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2138179,00.html?rtag=zdnetukhompage

Australia:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/07/25/1059084190013.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/25/1059084190013.html

Croatia:
http://www.net-security.org/news.php?id=3207

India:
http://www.ciol.com/content/news/2003/103072506.asp

Malaysia:
http://star-techcentral.com/tech/story.asp?file=/2003/7/25/technology/5924414&sec=technology

Baku Today, Azerbaijan - Jul 25, 2003
Study finds computer voting system widely vulnerable to tampering

[AnAmerican]

2. This one deserves a kick

[Kellanved]

3. To add a few

Das Problem mit den elektronischen Wahlsystemen und der amerikanischen Demokratie
=" The problem with electronic voting systems and the American democracy."
Telepolis, Ger - Jul 11, 2003


URNENGANG IN DEN USA - Clever mogeln mit der Smartcard
= "Voting in the US - cheating cleverly with the smartcard".
Spiegel Online, Ger - Jul 25, 2003


US-Wahlcomputer sind höchst unsicher
=" US voting compters are most unsecure."
heise Online, Ger - Jul 25, 2003


US-Wahlcomputer mit vielen Manipulationsmöglichkeiten
= " US voting computers with many possible ways of manipulation"
Telepolis, Ger - Jul 25, 2003


Schwachstellen in elektronischer US-Wahlsoftware
= " Weaknesses in US voting software"
Yahoo, Ger - Jul 25, 2003

[imax2268]

4. HELP NEEDED IN AZ...!

I have seen nor heard anything here in Arizona...

Please send a letter here to the editor of the Arizona Republic...I have sent many to all the news orginizations I could find but I have seen nothing nor have I got any return emails...

here's the link...

Editor:AZ Republic

[Eloriel]

5. A few more

Voting system among county finalists blasted in study July 26
http://www.cincypost.com/2003/07/26/vote072603.html

Fraud potential found in e-voting systems July 26
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/31986.html

Voting Machine Study Divides MD Officials July 26
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48092-2003Jul25.html

MD Voting System's Security Challenged July 25
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42928-2003Jul24.html?nav=hptoc_m

Eloriel

[Le Taz Hot]

6. And one more . . .

not a media outlet but I just received a Special CDC Newsletter (CDC = California Democratic Council) all about "Black Box Voting." Looks like all those e-mails/links to the CDC officers might have paid off.

[nostamj]

7. no link but

CNN did a pretty impressive feature story on Saturday.

it even mentioned the questionable Saxby Chamblis victory (w/o suggesting that any evidence existed (yet) to suggest fraud)

[BevHarris]

11. Here's a CNN transcript, might not be same one:

Absolute bullshit in their statistics, and they knew better, because CNN called me for the stats on how many use electronic voting. They downplayed the number ("under 1/5") and up-played the number of players (19 different manufacturers -- currently there are only a handful of vendors getting purchases)

Essentially same segment also aired with Judy Woodruff

============================

(ANDREA) KOPPEL: Now back to NEXT@CNN.

A fluke find on the Internet is raising some red flags about electronic voting. Computer security experts say they found vulnerabilities that could lead to vote tampering. Brian Cabell has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: If you thought the fiasco with hanging, dimpled, and pregnant chads in the presidential election in Florida, in 2000, dictated a move away from paper ballots and toward electronic voting, you might want to think again. Johns Hopkins University researchers, after studying the computer code for Diebold Elections Systems electronic equipment, have asserted the equipment as vulnerable to massive fraud.

AVI RUBIN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: I would say a 15-year-old computer science student or someone who is a hobbyist in computers could sit in a garage and manufacture smart cards that could be sold to people and give them the ability to vote unlimited number of times.

CABELL: Researchers got the Diebold code after it was posted anonymously on a public web site earlier this year. 33,000 Diebold voting stations were used in 2002. Including in Georgia where republicans Sonny Perdue and Saxby Chambliss upset the democratic incumbents for governor and U.S. senator. There is no evidence any fraud took place. Diebold insists its voting equipment is secure, but confirms it's studying the research.

MIKE JACOBSEN, DIEBOLD SPOKESPERSON: We really want to pore through that and make sure that -- you know, we're covering our basis in terms of the issues that they uncovered and assuage any public concerns that may be out there.

CABELL: Approximately one-fifth of all U.S. voters now use electronic ballots manufactured by 19 different and competing companies. The trend, especially after the chad crisis, has been toward more electronic voting. Requiring only a touch, it seems easier and more accurate than conventional balloting. Now, however, state elections officials may want to take a second look.

CINDY COHN, ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FDN.: I think it's important now for the companies who have sold these voting machines to the various counties to step forward and demonstrate to the public that the kinds of problems that were found by the Hopkins study, and frankly, there are other reports out there as well, that those don't exist in their systems.

CABELL: The Johns Hopkins researchers emphasize only that electronic voting fraud is possible. They do not claim that any has occurred so far.

Brian Cabell, CNN, Atlanta.

[nostamj]

14. yup! that's the story I caught yesterday... n/t

[BevHarris]

10. See what happens when you enter "Diebold and voting"

into Lexis-Nexis or Factiva (subscription databases)

Google has more, by the way, which is unusual. Perhaps the big databases are just slow this time.

I caught this, though, published BEFORE the story by the Hopkins Heroes:

Diebold says second-quarter revenue hurt by delay.
NEW YORK, July 21 (Reuters) - Diebold Inc. (DBD.N), which makes and services ATMs and voting machines, on Monday said its second-quarter revenue would be hurt by $30 million because an order for voting terminals was delayed until the current quarter.

And in a related article, also BEFORE this: "the company continues to expect 2003 voting revenue growth of 15% to 25% from a year ago."

Walden W. O'Dell, Diebold chairman, president and chief executive officer. "We will now recognize revenue of $30 million from this order during the third quarter. We remain confident in our full-year guidance for voting revenue growth of 15 to 25 percent and believe that the voting business will be significantly more accretive on a full-year basis than in 2002.

Chicago picks up article
Electronic voting system open to tampering, study finds
Chicago Tribune, 25 July 2003

Ascribe News
Electronic Voting System Vulnerable to Tampering: Computer Researchers Find Critical Flaws in Popular Software Produced for U.S. Elections - 24 July 2003

CMP Tech Web
Security Of E-Voting Systems Seriously Questioned
24 July 2003

Newsbytes News Netword
(picked up Washington Post article)
Voting Machine Study Divides Md. Officials, Experts
Newsbytes News Network , 26 July 2003

CP - Prep Cyber Corner
(CP = Canadian Press)
Prep-Cyber Corner
Broadcast News, 08:48 GMT, 25 July 2003

[4dog]

12. How about displaying the URLs in addition to the headlines?

(instead of them being hidden behind the blue text). If they are visible, as in Bev's post, it's easier to retrieve them from a printout or highlight them to suck them into an electronic file for future reference.

[ParanoidPat]

16. I'll continue to update this list in this format as time allows....

....Many of the links are rather long and would have people scrolling from side to side. If anyone would like the plain text version of the list in the original post, please PM me and I'll be glad to foreword it to you! :)

If anyone has any ideas as to the best format for creating a link archive for these stories, post your suggestions here and I'll see what I can put together!

Perhaps an Access database with the referential integrity turned off would be the most appropriate way! :shrug: :evilgrin:

[althecat]

33. Yes please...

[email protected]

[BeFree]

13. A feast for sore eyes...

That list of links to news stories, while expected, comes as a most pleasant surprise.

To have sat here all these months and read the story developing from Bev's investigation and seeing evil DUers filling in the blank spaces, and now seeing it all come to fruition.....words fail me.

I sure am proud of you'se guys. Thank you and bless you all.

You've helped America, and me, on our constitutional quest to be free.

[ParanoidPat]

15. Results of Google search for 'Black Box Voting', 'Diebold'.....

.....Sunday, July 27, 2003, 11:30 AM, PST yealds 871 Hits!

Keep up with the latest developments at Google and Google News!

Search the results from todays Google web search for 'Black Box Voting', 'Diebold', here! :evilgrin:

ON EDIT: Fixed typo in subject line! Kool! :)

[loyalsister]

17. This is good

Raising the awareness in general is important. I just listened to my Democratic county clerk give a talk and she referred to this stuff. She said that this is sort of a waste of time, because the place where you're going to see real problems is going to be in the ballot design, and process. Overvotes are the biggest potential problem. Also, if there is a counterintuitive ballot that has potential to produce the kinds of error, it will on a massive level.
She referred to the Palm Beach ballots, and to a problem in Jacksonville that went pretty much unnoticed. The flaw turned out to be in the Democrats get out the vote efforts. There were pres. candidates spread out over 2 pages on the ballot. Problem was the dems told people to vote on EVERY page because it was a long ballot and they didn't want anyone to miss any local votes. Since Democratic voters followed the instructions, there were a huge number of overvotes for Gore there.
Her point was, making sure there are intutive ballot designs and appropriate directions are the most productive way to make sure that elections run smoothly.
Trying to "prove" past fraud based on assumptions that can't reasonably be applied is not going to solve this problem. Look to the future and take the most productive approach. "It's the ballot stupid"
She also said that the paranoia over elctronic voting systems is a little excessive. Raising questions is reasonable, but the important thing about these systems is that people who could not previously cast blind ballots now can only because of this technology.
Before anyone discredits her only because they don't like her observations, check out her credentials!
Here, the pukes didn't fund our Presidential primary. They even submitted legislation to eliminate it. When they did the HAVA legislation, she got them to put aside the same amount of $$ spent in the election of 2000 in a sort of general fund. I think it's something like $4 million. It's ours for the primary. They funded it without knowing it thanks to my county clerk!!

[BevHarris]

18. Why do the credentials of a county clerk matter in a source code exam?

I couldn't tell if you were calling her out or reporting this as a valid rebuttal. But in case anyone thinks this county clerk can be considered anything more than clueless:

"Raising questions is reasonable, but the important thing about these systems is that people who could not previously cast blind ballots now can only because of this technology.
Before anyone discredits her only because they don't like her observations, check out her credentials!

Excuse me, but a county clerk is wholly unqualified to pass any judgement of computer security. That is, unless she is a C++ code specialist with knowledge about remote communications and encryption techniques, database design skills, AND she has seen the source code.

I'm guessing "no" to all of the above. Why are we listening to anything she has to say about whether votes can be tampered with in these machines.

"Check her credentials?" We don't even know her name, and by the way, what are her credentials?"

Source code creates the commands sent to the computer that tells it what to do. She can talk 'till she's blue in the face, but if she doesn't even know what commands are being sent to the computer as it is tallying the votes, and if she doesn't understand what can happen if a computer is hacked by an intruder, she should step aside and let the computer people (like the Hopkins scientists, Dr. Dill, Dr. Jones, and Dr. Mercuri) explain it.

This is the fourth clueless election official I've seen quoted in three days. IF THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT PROGRAMMING, HAVEN'T SEEN THE SOURCE CODE, AND DON'T UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT OF HACKING VIA REMOTE ACCESS, WHY ARE WE SPENDING TWO MINUTES LISTENING TO THEM?

Next time, call her on her bullshit.

Bev

[DEMActivist]

19. This is critical information!!!

Let's look at what that pollworker was saying closely, because this is one problem we pointed out very early on.

First, read this paragraph from the scientists very carefully:

The “ballot definition” for each election contains everything from the background color of the screen to the PPP username and password to use when reporting the results. This data is not encrypted or checksummed (cryptographically or otherwise) and so can be easily modified by any attacker with physical access to the file. While many attacks, such as changing the party affiliation of a candidate, would be noticed by some voters, many more subtle attacks are possible. By simply changing the order of the candidates as they appear in the ballot definition, the results file will change accordingly. However, the candidate information itself is not stored in the results file. The file merely tracks that candidate 1 got so many votes and candidate 2 got so many other votes. If an attacker reordered the candidates on the ballot definition, voters would unwittingly cast their ballots for the wrong candidate. As with denial-of-service attacks (see Section 3.1.2), ballot reordering attacks would be particularly effective in polling locations known to be heavily partisan.

http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

Now let us add the hundreds of Georgia voters who reported on election night that a vote for Chambliss registered for Cleland, or vice versa.

Let's not ignore that a pollworker may have well just told us he/she is aware of this happening.

I would ask the original poster to read this information from the scientists and go back to the the pollworker and ask for some clarification.

[loyalsister]

20. Pardon?

Her name is Wendy Noren. Point was that she is a good Democrat. She is also a HUGE advocate for voting rights and expanded capabilities for people with disabilities.
The programming issue lies with those who are doing the programming, obviously. There are some valid concerns, but the assumptions that have been used are very often not very realistic. Yes, she deals heavily with experts in the field. She was with the leg every step of the way in working out our HAVA.

[DEMActivist]

21. "Good" Democrats....

You mean a "good Democrat" like Democrat Cathy Cox who refuses to discuss this subject with the voters?

Or the "good Democrat" Roy Barnes who hangs up on constituents trying to discuss this issue?

Or the "good Democrats" at party headquarters in Georgia who tell us to call the Secretary of State to answer these questions?

Or the "good Democrats" in the Lt. Governor's office in Georgia who ignore the associated questions?

With "good Democrats" like this, we don't need "bad republicans."

on edit:
Or maybe you mean the "good Democrats" in the Senate in Georgia who changed parties to republican when they saw the republicans take office.

Yeah, those "good Democrats"!!!!!

[BevHarris]

22. Loyal sister: Take Demactivist's finding back to Wendy Noren

and ask her specifically, "is this what you mean?"

By the way, should we all give up our right to vote so the blind will have private ballots? NO! And guess what: Avante and AccuPoll have voter-verified paper trails that also provide privacy for the blind.

This "voting rights for the disabled" is a crock and a red herring. There is no reason to give up proper auditing or paper trails for this, and they can STILL have touch screen voting with a paper trail AND privacy. I'm getting tired of people repeating the same old same old vendor talking points without doing their research.

Now, as for this:

There are some valid concerns, but the assumptions that have been used are very often not very realistic.

Actually, neither you nor she has any idea how often they have been used or how realistic, IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE SOURCE CODE AND DON'T KNOW C++ CODING, HACKING TECHNOLOGY AND ENCRYPTION TECHNIQUES.

Yes, she deals heavily with experts in the field.

What experts? The 900 computer security experts who have weighed in saying there is NO WAY these systems are safe? Or the experts provided by the vendor and The Election Center? Name them!

She was with the leg every step of the way in working out our HAVA.

HAVA is part of the problem. A big part of the problem. It mandates purchase of unsafe machines BEFORE standards are set.

Bev Harris

[loyalsister]

23. Maybe if you felt humiliated

asking a Republican poll worker to mark your ballot in favor of a tax increase when they know you don't pay taxes, it would occur to you that everyone deserves this right.
My boyfriend, who can't move his hands feels very uncomfortable voting for property tax increases for that reason.
ALL of HAVA is a problem because there is an imperfection? Some people just want to vote with some privacy. It's extremely disappointing to see a person belittling that desire.

[ibegurpard]

24. No one is belittling that desire.

We are calling for verifiable paper trails for electronic voting machines and vote counters.

[BevHarris]

25. Stop it. There are TWO manufacturers who produce a paper

trail with privacy for the blind. Therefore, saying we can't have a paper trail due to privacy for the blind is a RED HERRING.

Review the Avante and AccuPoll web sites.

I'm sorry to be rude, but I am SO TIRED of trotting out these old stale bait and switch techniques.

There are touch screen manufacturers who do it right, so why are these elected officials insisting on doing it wrong???

Bev

[loyalsister]

26. It's not just the blind

There are people who are incapable of using their hands who need either a voice assisted voting ballot, or a touch screen that they can manipulate with a mouth stick.

[ibegurpard]

27. WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTION TO A VERIFIABLE PAPER TRAIL?

THAT is the issue here. Any form of electronic voting or vote counting that does not allow for a verifiable paper trail is of NO benefit to ANYONE...disabled or not.

[loyalsister]

30. NO benefit?

That's ridiculous. You people act like it's impossible to have a voting system that works without a paper trail. How is it not of benefit if your catostophic prophecies go unfullfilled (most likely scenario), and county officials (that IS where this is handled, ya know) do a good job, Democrats get elected, etc........
People here forget that elections are handled at a very local level. Tampering would have to take place at the county level. Get to know your county officials if you want to be productively involved in this issue. Painting the worst case scenario all over the media accomplishes nothing. Action that will have real effect is working the polls, helping make sure ballots are intuitive and that voters are educated on how to use them ahead of time, etc.

[shance]

31. No LS, elections would be dealt with on a corporate level

The owners of the machines would have total access to the data and results (if this is incorrect, someone let me know)and it would have nothing to do with being a local issue any longer.

[BevHarris]

35. i'm going to assume that loyalsister has not read up on this

Loyalsister: Read up on the issues and educate yourself.
If you have done so, you are a disruptor, because your arguments truly make no sense.

I say there are voting machine makers that produce touch screens WITH a paper trail that also provide privacy for the blind. The machines function essentially the same way as the ones you are supporting.

You ignore what I just said and say I'm insensitive to the needs of the blind, and then bring up a physical disability which requires touch screen accessibility, and I say we have manufacturers that do touch screens with paper trails -- your arguments just aren't tracking at all.

Then you are asked what you have against a paper trail, and you never answer that, just start railing away at "our catastrophic prophecies" instead of answering: What do you have against a paper trail?

Then you assert, incorrectly, that problems would have to take place at the county level.

News flash: Start by actually reading the report that got so much news coverage this week. It is 24 pages long. When you can intelligently discuss issues like remote access and tamperability, using facts and logic, people here might listen to you.

Otherwise, you're just another person with an agenda.

Bev Harris

[SharonAnn]

40. Actually, the county level doesn't do the programming.

They usually contract with somebody (the vendor) to do it for them.

The county has no control over what ACTUALLY gets programmed in and no way to verify what has been programmed.

Trust us on this. We're programmers and we know what can be done. I can make it look like whatever you want in operation - and do something entirely different inside the machine. And you'll never know what I did and even if you suspect something, you'll never be able to prove it.

[Eloriel]

44. This is the whole key, right here. Read it carefully. Memorize it.

SharonAnn, I'm going to change your language slightly:

A programmer can make the machines produce whatever you want on the outside - while programming something entirely different with different results inside the machine. And you'll never know what the programmer did and even if you suspect something, you'll never be able to prove it.

Like I said, the whole key to EVERYthing.

It's also why I've personally always been against computerized voting: finding problems with "the system" requires EXPERTS, whereas recounting paper ballots can be done by anyone.

Eloriel

[loyalsister]

49. The county controls WHO does the programming

The county is in charge of making this stuff work properly. I don't know about you, but my county commissioner and clerk are elected by me. The people deciding who to trust to make those decisions. Imagine that!!
The assumption here is that there will be a massive number of county officials who are either so incompetent or negligent that they will not go to the trouble to make sure the programmer is a professional. The truth is that county clerks have a job to do and they are professionals. They have more power to mediate the voting process than some people seem to believe.
BTW: I didn't answer the question about having something against a paper trail, because I thought it was ridiculous. I don't have anything against one. I can however, respect the argument that it's not as necessary as some people here believe. There are a few ways to look at this thing and I'm just more flexible because I don't have this massive fear of catastrophe.

[BevHarris]

50. Loyalsister: You aren't understanding what programming is

Your county people program the BALLOT.

We are talking about the people who write the source code.

In other words, if a voting program was a Word processor, your county people might be creating the newsletter, they aren't creating the source code for Microsoft Word.

I've always figured the county people are honest. If you really aren't pulling my leg, and you really don't know how this works:

You are connected to a computer. You can get a virus, right? You can get a worm. If you don't have a firewall, people can come in and snoop around in your computer. Right?

These voting machines are computers. Forget about programmers, forget about your county officials: What's to prevent a hacker from sending in a little "packet" that makes the program misbehave? What's to prevent a hacker from getting into the computer and manipulating the vote totals?

The article by computer scientists in the New York Times is talking about exactly that kind of risk, because the manufacturer who created the program did not follow even the most basic security procedures.

Now, as to programming, at the level of actually creating the voting program itself (not just entering an election or creating a ballot), what makes you think no one can bribe a programmer? In the days of lever machines, people bribed the lever machine technicians all the time. Would people become less bribe-able just because the machines are electronic?

You haven't really thought this issue through. At DU, we'll be happy to refer you to sources where you can learn, or even take time educating you, as I have just done.

But if, after we know you have the information, you keep posting uninformed things, we'll know you have an agenda and you know perfectly well what the score is.

Can someone refer loyalsister to a beginner's site, to learn about this?

Bev

[shance]

29. Hi Bev*** Is computerized voting inevitable or are there other options?

And, if we have to face the reality of computerized machines, are Avante and Accupoll's the machines and the companies we need to promote? Is there any possibility of remaining with paper ballot machines?

And perhaps I have missed it, but what is some alternatives or solutions we can be informing others of? When people ask me what is the solution, I dont have an answer for them at this point.

It would be great to have a one page marketing synopsis dealing with Problem/Risks/Solution. I know that is remarkably simplistic, especially after all the work you have put in. But being that time is such a critical factor here, we need a basic three paragraph summary that reveals to mainstream Americans the crisis, and then to show them a solution, that will at the least get us a safe election for 2004, hopefully for the California (bulls**T) recall.

Another question, has anyone contacted Moveon and Truemajority on this? Im singing to the Choir master here*** and I know that this is your concern that we need to come up with ideas and ways to shortcut the process and get this issue promoted to the number one priority in America. If you could post a thread on some solutions that we can inform others about, that would be fantastic.

[SharonAnn]

39. Hmm, where to start with what she said. Some of it is correct, but

lots of it is not.

Ballot design IS extremely important. It's the "Human Interface" and its design can "lead" a voter down a certain path. There is a lot of information available on this in the Computer Science field and other enineering field(s). A fun book on this, explaining basic human interface concepts was published about 10-15 years ago "The Psychology of Everyday Things". A good read, not too heavy, and full of good information about designing things that humans use.

Overvotes shouldn't be a problem with a correctly designed DRE. Don't quite understand where she's going with that.

Bad party directions (vote on EVERY page) are the fault of the party GOTV people. Again, a correctly designed DRE shouldn't permit that kind of overvote where a person votes for more than one candidate for a single race.

Where she's wrong is that our "paranoia over electronic voting systems" is NOT a little excessive. We're not nearly paranoid enough. And what good does it do if the blind can vote using these systems if their vote won't be counted correctly either? It will just allow more fraud.

Sigh, we have long way to go with people like her. To paraphrase Rumsfield "they don't know what they don't know". That's truly a dangerous situation because they're not trying to find out anything.

[Bushfire]

28. Another link...

Company Defends Electronic Voting System - Milw Journal Sentinel

By BRIAN WITTE
Associated Press Writer

Jul 25, 9:28 PM EDT

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/ELECTRONIC_VOTING_FLAWS?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=BUSINESS&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

:bounce:

[Gordon25]

58. Another link

Just found this link on the story:
<http://www.takebackthemedia.com/radio.shtml>
Also have a link on their site to the NYT's story.

Also, have not seen it on the list, but the Arizona Daily Star in Tucson ran the NYT article the same day it ran in the times. Here is the link:
<http://cgi.azstarnet.com/last7-cgi/webglimpse/data1/httpd/starnet/webglimpse/last7?query=Diebold>

This is my first post here though I have been following the bbv discussion here for about two weeks, and the issue for nearly two years. Been working on my own with the local county Democratic party, and though it is sometimes frustratingly slow we have finally reached the point of linking up with other efforts to take back our vote. My congratulations and gratitude to Bev and all the others here for all their hard work and persistence. I believe it was Thomas Paine who said that the right to vote for your representative is the right upon which all other rights depend.

We are finally starting to make some waves. Now the fun part = trying to surf the waves we've created.

Though I've been on the net for what seems like ages, this is my first foray into a discussion forum, so please forgive me if I don't get everything correct the first couple posts. I'll try to be a fast learner.
Gordon25
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

[nolabels]

59. Great post and thanks for the links to Arizona Daily Star in Tucson

Nice to have a another set of eyes with focus around. Wellcome DU and happy posting :toast:

[althecat]

32. Paranoiod Pat.. this is beautiful....

THANKYOU!!!! Will post a scoop link shortly of it is ok.

I would like to run this on Scoop..

alastair
Scoop

[ianbruce]

34. Excellent idea!

Please post a link when you do. Looking for to seeing it, and sending it.

[althecat]

41. Scoop's Great Big List of E-Voting Story Links 1.0

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00219.htm
Scoop's Great Big List of E-Voting Story Links 1.0

and
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00220.htm
THE REAL SCOOP ON DIEBOLD, 25th July, 2003 by Fintan Dunne, Editor

Gulufuture kindly gave Scoop permission to republish. Thanks Fintan.

[ConsAreLiars]

43. Sorting the story list

by source name would make it easier for readers to find out if their local or preferred media have covered this yet. If so, it is a good thing to know and cite when talking to friends or local gov't reps or for letter-writing. If not included, then that is an invitation for readers to do a search, and then add a new link or tell their media to get on the story. Not sure if this can be done easily, but if it's not too difficult to accomplish and simple to maintain with new additions, then it might be worth doing.

[ParanoidPat]

36. By all means.....

....Post away! :evilgrin:

[althecat]

37. Four links and an apology

gulufuture -gulufuture - the NZ Listener - HARD NEWS


... finally some people get the story right….

The Register also does a passable job. Reuters Washington reported the same as others, I.E. wrongly that Hopkins Heros came across and downloaded the code in January. The thing is… that is not what the Awesome Foursome said… they say they downloaded it from a NZ website.

gulufuture

The gulufuture link is great because they have picked up some fantastic scoops in the past – and they have a great distribution system don't know how it works – organic perhaps.... and I think they get blogged like crazy. That said they are Indymedia – people like us.

the NZ Listener

The second link is to a story from last Monday in the Listener NZ's leading weekly current affairs magazine. I took them into the Loop before we published the first story and that is why they managed to get such a jump on everybody else. This story is structured as a story about Scoop saying these outragreous things… and that is how it gets. The US media presumably could easily, and safely, use this technique to report a large chunk of what we are saying now - on the same basis. The Listener is a probably what you would call a "liberal mainstream" publication.

HARD NEWS

The final link is to a story by another NZ Journalist colleague, whose column we promote. Russell is the editor of Radio New Zealand's Media Watch program, so I expect he will be intensely interested in all of this and will post a more thorough analysis on it shortly. He too will like your list Pat.

And pat's magnificent list. That is not just Indymedia. That is everybody!

I am terribly sorry about yesterday. So loose. Eloriel and DUReader saved me from getting bumped by the hair of my teeth I bet. This morning I feel especially sorry to the limeys. I am technically a limey too, if it means British born persons, I don't even know what it means! Someone very dear to me accused me of acting like a neo-colonialist. Lack of sleep can do that. Plus a fairly large dose of excitement and, to my disgrace probably a bit of hubris. Thank god slashdot rejected my last story submission!

Related question: can I delete old threads? If so how?

I feel much better now. I went to church last night. And cried. I felt so thankful for what has been happening. Pat you have made my day with your list. Until I found this thread I wondered if you had all disappeared. Not in a bad way… more that you had all decided to go shopping or started talking about something else. I had a good sleep and Scoop is underway for the week.

The USACOUP page is possibly finally!!! in the sort of shape it should be in, when the masses finally get directed by the major media to check it out. Which I hasten to say, they haven't yet, so I can still save my reputation I hope. We have had around 10,000 through the feature page - which is good... but I was expecting someone big to publish a link. So make suggestions now. I have added links to several campaigns. There must be others?

For what it's worth I now reckon that … while everybody is continuing to call it a fluke we may have a few days yet till we get swamped. I have published a press release at - Here and on Scoop from VotersChoice's Hugh Esco (Georgia)… and need to edit together a piece from what he has sent me for my next piece.

I have posed a couple of questions Here.. But please post answers here or send me email privately.

The most important question I had is should I remove the links to the UBERPOST and Bev's report back from the page. For now I have delinked UBERPOST... I think Bev's thread is presentable. You can see it if you visit.

http://scoop.co.nz/mason/features/?s=usacoup

Finally… Thank god you are all still here. I was starting to think for a second it was all a dream… which it is. Just a real one. :)

And BTW Michael at WRH is looking for cartoons.

All the best
Alastair

[althecat]

38. Hard News: Calling in the experts - Rebecca Gets A Big Plug

http://publicaddress.net/default,hardnews.sm#post562

Calling in the experts | Jul 28, 2003 13:34
Hi folks. It's a day for key information from informed third parties. That is, more on the issues around Scoop's developing story on the flaws in electronic voting machines, and what actually happened in the rugby on Saturday.

Duane Griffin has been in touch with more information on Scoop's voting machine scoop. He says:

More...here...
http://publicaddress.net/default,hardnews.sm#post562

[alaine]

42. It would be interesting, if the media co's who ran the

story under the same headline, were all owned by the same corp. and if so, to find out who owns the corps., which might be why some co's spun it as "Company defends it's pieces of crap" as opposed to the others that said "experts say machines are pieces of crap".

I'm too lazy to do all that research, of course, I just thought it would be interesting.

[RedEagle]

45. Jumping Back to Disinformation Here....

I attended a demonstration of a DRE last week. The vendor was not Diebold. We had a blind person and a visually impaired person. This representative implied the following about Avante:

That they might not be fully certified nationally.

That their printing unit may not be certified.


Both are false. This is the kind of garbage local officials are hearing. The big four companies have all kinds of bucks, apparently, to send these people out to demo and deceive. The usual "talking points" all come up.

It was kind of strange that they would say one company's printing unit may not be certified, when they use the same kind, in a much more primitive way, IF they have to produce a voter-verified ballot. The same people who complain about vote selling with paper ballots, (You can't even touch the ballot with Avante's system), and identifying voters because of sequentially printed ballots on rolls of thermal tape, (Avante cuts the ballot off after it is cast, anyway) defend their printing system which IS sequential and just say that you can't identify a voter that way. Hogwash. If info is written down in a book, sequentially, and you don't randomize machines, ....

The good old Election Center, what a job they've done. Tell me, is the Center funded by ES&S, Sequoia, Diebold, and HartIntercivic?

And your local election officials may have taken training in election administration, etc., courtesy of- The Election Center. So when they spew garbage and tell you they are the be all and end all of election knowledge, it's sometimes because they have taken the courses, ya know?

By the way, with this system, conservatively, the blind person took 20 minutes to vote. This system used a box with up/down type buttons. If the voter wanted to enter a write in candidate, they would have to go up and down the entire alphabet until they got the name spelled. Yikes! At least some systems for the blind allow the use of a keyboard.

And from what I saw, yes, the blind can vote secretly, AFTER they get a lot of help from poll workers on how to use the system. About that secrecy, unless you can shut off the screen, a blind person can't block the view of the screen that well and those little wings don't cover much. If someone is in a wheelchair, either the screen gets tipped way down or shut off- or the world reads your vote.

What really makes me mad is someone is taking the disabled and USING them to further their own agenda.

I could really see a blind person throwing up their hands after too much time trying to use this system, and just getting an absentee ballot and going back to voting the way they were.

:grr:

[Eloriel]

47. Interesting report, thanks.

Some of the Election Center's funding comes from Secretary of States' memberships, IIRC. That's not saying they don't get money from the vendors too, but I don't know there's any record of that. There may be, I'm just saying I don't know.

Eloriel

[althecat]

46. For a list of referrers to the Scoop USA coup page see here...

Here

[althecat]

48. Google News treating Scoop as authoritative source

Hi. DU is so useful. This release is now also -->HERE<--.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0307/S00330.htm

This is a better link for people to post as it has a link to the proper context.

http://scoop.co.nz/mason/features/?s=usacoup

Also... you will see my link is now No.2 on Google "Diebold + Voting". Can I encourage people to send links to any media releases - reports they see on this to [email protected]. I can post in our World News wire and Google will pick them up immediately. And it seems give them a good run :)


****

At present Google is not indexing the Scoop Headlines (aka Scoops) Wire.. which contains all the Scoop stories on this. You can ask them to start doing so by emailing.

[email protected]

Tell them you want them to start indexing this page.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/news/scoops.html

Cheers
Alastair

[sybylla]

51. Ka-Ching...Add the CBC radio program "As It Happens"

Hubby woke up at 5:30 this morning and turned off the alarm. On the radio, tuned into Wisconsin public radio, was As It Happens from Canada, as it is every morning before 6 am.

This morning, we woke up in time to hear their "Future Tense" segment in which they spent about three to four minutes discussing problems with Diebold voting systems with someone from Rice University.

I have to say that I am so thrilled that this story has legs. Now that it has appeared on WPR, I'm going to send all the links for BBV and these stories to one of the better talk show hosts and see if we can't get Bev on the radio here.

Kudos to Bev, Demactivist, and all who worked on this issue. The first step in solving a problem is convincing people there is one in the first place. You have done a marvelous job! :toast:

[RedEagle]

52. CBC Radio

Yes, CBC is great. Don't they broadcast As It Happens on weekdays too, around 6PM?

You could get more than a couple minues on that show.

CBC also has the equivalent of NPR-type programming on weekends.

Ah, the advantages of living near the Canadian border and receiving something not so corporate controlled over the airwaves...


Kick!

[ParanoidPat]

53. Great news! Do you have any idea how big their audience is?

Sounds like a major coup! :evilgrin:
Later on this evening I'll be posting the Black Box Voting "Take Back the Vote" 'Tool Kit' so everyone can get involved! Stay tuned, the second front in the war to take our electoral process back is about to open! :)

[BevHarris]

56. Great name, Pat! BBV Take Back The Vote Toolkit -- love it!

Thanks!

Bev

[nolabels]

54. Thanks Pat

Sent my local paper which I have been a subcriber to for year a link to this this thread and told them I thought it was curious they are missing it. :kick:

[althecat]

55. Yeah.. thanks Pat...

[BevHarris]

57. althecat - check your email ASAP

sorry, typo in your email address last night.

Bev