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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 08:58 PM
Original message
Left-Wing vs Right-Wing "Science"
Recently a colleague gave me a bunch of hand-outs to hand to my clients, regarding how to care for an uncircumcized male infant. My first thought was "Great! Medicaid no longer pays for routine circumcisions. This is what my clients need to know!" I'd read about half the pamphlet, before I got that familiar sinking feeling in my gut, the one that says "Eeep, eeep, eeep BAD SCIENCE alert!"

Okay, there are compelling arguments both for and against routine cirmcision of baby boys. It's probably unnecessary in most cases, and it's painful when done without anesthetic. It also could result in some loss of sensivity during sex, although the jury is still out on the last argument (Masters and Johnson found no difference, but I'm of Jewish descent, so I'll admit I'm biased).

But absolutely NO ONE with a lick of sense claims that being uncircumcized *protects* males from infection! In fact, recent medical studies have shown that uncircumcized males are eight times as likely to catch an STD - including AIDS - as those who've been cut.

I'll be the first to stand up and say to these folks that "Your position may be ethically right, but the evidence you claim is dead wrong. Go back and do your homework".

Male circumsion may or may not be a bad thing.

Masturbation and condom use have been shown to be beneficial beyond any doubt. Jocelyn Elders was hounded out her job for telling the truth, and the CDC still can't publish it on their web-site.

What's wrong with this picture?
































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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. WTF does this have to do with RW/LW?
*is baffled.*
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camero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. The RW pushed to keep condom use
Edited on Mon Dec-08-03 09:23 PM by camero
and masturbation off the agend of the CDC. Even though it has been shown that both can save lives. Same with circumcision.
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annak110 Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. The Catholic Bishops banned condoms
throughout the world just in time to endanger the lives of thousands of people, especially of women. Ah well, I guess people can't be burned at the stake or gassed to death right now.
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FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Both the left and the right wing embrace "bad science"
But only the right wing has the political muscle to enforce its views.
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Blue_Chill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. That would be the Christian Coalition at work
They have been called the most powerful enemy of science in the world, and that's including the guys in big hats over at vatican city.
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-08-03 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
4. A tricky issue scientifically. But a little research might help you
sort it out, if answers are really what you are looking for rather than assumptions.

Here is one relatively neutral website which offers basic information on circumcision http://www.cirp.org where you can find the following on rates of HIV invections, as an example (from http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ )

<snip>

Studies from developed countries

According to Laumann et al., data from the National Health and Social Life Survey in the United States indicate that, in 1992, of 1511 men surveyed who were between 18 and 59 years of age, 77 percent of U.S. born men were circumcised; this high percentage is unique among the industrialized nations.24

World Heath Organization data24 from 1995 show the following AIDS rates for that year:

Nation AIDS cases per 100,000 population

USA 16.0
Australia 4.5
Canada 3.8
France 3.5
Netherlands 3.1
United Kingdom 2.4
Germany 2.2
Sweden 2.0
Norway 1.6
New Zealand 1.2
Finland 0.9
Japan 0.2

The United States HIV incidence rate is 3.5 times higher than that of the closest advanced industrialized nation. Storms 28 and Nicoll 32 noted that the high incidence of male circumcision in the US did nothing to prevent the spread of this infection. Nicoll, in fact, states that "the US is the industrialized country most burdened with HIV."32

These observations should not necessarily lead us to conclude that circumcision increases HIV risk. However, it does suggest that attempts to control HIV by imposing mass circumcision on populations are unlikely to be successful.

Sociocultural confounding factors. Poland makes it clear that circumcision is not performed at random. Circumcision is a socio-cultural marker that may indicate wide differences in social and cultural practices among different groups and tribes. For example, circumcision incidence in the U.S. is lower among poor and Hispanic people.6 Circumcision (and, conversely, intactness) are socioeconomic indicators that may relate to differences in sexual behavior, hygienic behavior, and access to medical care. Failure to control for these confounding factors is a frequent source of error in such studies.

Circumcision changes sexual behavior. Circumcised men have a greater tendency to engage in riskier, "more highly elaborated" sexual practices.31 Such behavior includes unsafe sex (less frequent use of condoms, which deaden sensation even more for circumcised men; anal sex, or sex with multiple partners). This may contribute to the high rate of HIV infection in the United States, where circumcision rates are still of epidemic proportions.

Other factors. Hooykaas reported more STDs amongst circumcised men in the Netherlands.8 Pépin has identified pre-existing lesions from STDs as entry points for HIV.10
The protective effect of the natural anatomy

In 1982, Prakash and colleagues reported finding lytic material (lysozyme) in the sub-preputial wetness beneath the prepuce.1 Lysozyme is an enzyme secreted in human bodily fluids that acts to destroy bacteria, fungi, and other infectious agents. Bacteria are capable of producing lesions through which the HIV virus can enter the body. Lysozyme has long been known to destroy the cell walls of bacteria. Fleiss et al. have elaborated the natural protective properties of the prepuce. Compellingly, Lee-Huang and colleagues reported in 1999 that lysozyme is an effective agent for killing HIV directly in vitro.41 Hill has prepared a summary of the evidence for the hypothesis that the intact prepuce may offer a protective effect against HIV infection.

The effectiveness of lysozyme at destroying HIV in or on the body has not been tested. More research is needed to establish what direct protection, if any, is afforded by the lysozyme found in the subpreputial wetness of the anatomically complete penis as designed by nature.

Fleiss, Hodges and Van Howe describe the immunological protections that the foreskin provides against infection.29 In another review, Van Howe found that men with circumcised penises were at statistically greater risk of acquiring HIV than a man with a non-circumcised penis.32 This is consistent with the results of Dezzutti, who discovered that intact epithelium (skin and mucosa) is resistant to penetration by HIV.28 The possible role of circumcision in the high rate of HIV infection in the US needs further study.
Meta-analyses

de Vincenzi and Mertens found that the existing evidence did not control sufficiently for confounding factors concerning the relationship between circumcision and HIV infection.17 They warned that caution was necessary: Implementing surgery as a strategy for controlling the spread of AIDS was not recommended based on the existing evidence.

Van Howe also concluded that circumcision could not be recommended to prevent HIV infection.44 This conclusion was based on a statistical analysis of all of the data from multiple published studies. In fact, the analysis indicated that circumcised men had a slightly greater chance of contracting HIV.

Angus Nicoll of the British Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre recommended that circumcision should not be used to control HIV infection.32

<snip>

More information is available at sites like these which obviously have a particular view.
http://www.noharmm.org/
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/
http://www.nocirc.org/


Male Circumsion is, to my mind, a terrible practice. We are born the way we are because generations of evolution have given our form an advantage. To hack parts off without due cause, without anesthesia, and to do so without the consent of the person on whom the hacking is performed is barbaric. Of course this is my humble opinion.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. I didn't have my son circumcized for two reasons
1. God made him the way he is and God usually does a pretty good job and

2. He's not Jewish
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