The "anger poll" got me thinking, opinions please...

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

I will first offer by way of a disclaimer that, as my avatar states, I'm a Deanie. Now that that's out of the way...

Like a lot of people, I've been simmering in a cesspool of bitter rage since the 2000 election, and disillusionment with a Democratic party that, in large part, was rolling over and playing dead. So Dean's passionate style was very appealing to me. It also didn't hurt that I agreed with him on about 90% of his positions, but that's not what we're talking about here.

Much has been made of the level of emotion that exists both in the candidate and in his supporters. I feel, personally, that it's an asset that will actually help him to get elected. However, there are many people who make very cogent arguments that he will simply come off like a psychopath who will simply scare off voters.

Here's my question: Am I letting my emotions get the better of me and influence my decision-making process, or am I actually seeing something in this candidate that I genuinely believe will be an asset to his campaign? Am I not thinking straight, or am I seeing something genuine?

Your thoughts on this matter ARE appreciated, whatever they may be.

[last1standing]

1. I was talking to a repub friend the other day about the election...

and after I had "won" every part of our debate, he said, "You know, you're probably right, but really, I think this country's going down and if it's going to go down I want to go down kicking and screaming like a republican, not like some pussy democrat." (sorry, but he said it not me).

Of course, I blew up and probably hurt the frienship, not that I care at this point. But what he said made sense. Democrats have been too cold and aloof for too long. The average American doesn't think they have any passion. For so many, it's better to be strong than right, and the repubs act strong. If they lose an arguement, they just come out swinging with their might makes right attitude. That's why bush* got such a bump in the polls after invading Iraq.

So are you right or wrong? You have to answer that for yourself, but I'll support the person with the passion, energy, and charisma to take the debate to bush*, beat the hell out of him with it, and then smile at the camera and say "Now let's talk about healthcare". I think that's Dean.

[LeahMira]

21. Of mice and cheese...

he said, "You know, you're probably right, but really, I think this country's going down and if it's going to go down I want to go down kicking and screaming like a republican, not like some pussy democrat."

Golly, even a dumb little mouse who's eventually learned to go through a maze to get some cheese at the end knows enough to figure that if they change the maze and the old way doesn't lead to the cheese any more he's going to have to try to figure a new way to get to that cheese. And so he starts exploring, and sometimes he bumps his little mouse head up against a wall, but eventually he really does get to his cheese again.

If your Republican friend thinks the country's going down, why on earth does he want to keep doing the same things that don't seem to be working any more?

Acting strong, or in a lot of cases acting manipulative and/or outright lying, maybe worked in the past, but "kicking and screaming like a Republican"... or how about pre-emptive wars and tax cuts and corporate welfare programs and bribing other nations to help us or keep out of the way... aren't getting us where we want to go now.

So, hmmm...

Is your Republican friend smarter than a dumb mouse... or not?

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

23. Well

I hate to say it, but the phenomenon described about the republican friend not wanting to vote for a "pussy" is one I see over and over again. I keep hearing things like "the president just needs to grow a pair and (insert insanely simplistic right-wing view here)" It's real and it's not going away.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I think the focus of Dean's campaign

by which I mean individuals taking back America from corporate interests, is vital not only for Dean's campaign but for the Democratic candidate, whoever he/she may be. Too many people stopped voting because they felt that the government had been bought by special interests. This is a way to get them back in the voting booth. We must show passion for our country and our way of life, and show others that we are a viable choice to the Repugs and the only choice if one wants to keep our country free.

[xultar]

3. It is a little bit of both...and we're all doing it...

I think all of us were fuming after 2000, hell we still are fuming. That is one thing that is great about the Democratic party...we have emotions and we aren't mindless robots! YEA for us! Something about Dean moved you! That is great! Why is it Great...because for a while there I'm sure you just like I did and felt as though there was no hope for the Democratic party.

Everyone has a story about why a certain candidate moved them. Don't worry about your decision making process. Just be happy that you are active, informed and that you have a goal in mind...to get chimpy face out of the white house.

Whatever it is that Braun, Clark, Dean, Edwards, Gephardt, Kuchinich, Lieberman(eu), and Sharpton have that makes us wanna get up and beat the hell out of the rethuglicans is awesome and I appreciate every single one for it.

PS...
Even though we have chimpy face as a president and we are @ war and our economy is tanking I have good news...I saved money on my car insurance from GEICO!

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

9. Ha ha

I would give my left arm to see at the debates next year, the Dem listing Bush's many failures and then saying, "But there's good news, I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by switching to Geico."

[rock]

20. Hey! That was funny.

LOL

[xultar]

28. Me too! We gotta make sure the Dems nom campaign has that line nt

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

29. Just make sure it's after Lieberman drops out

He seems to believe he has marvelous comic timing and we must NOT allow him to use/ruin it before the nominee gets his or her hands on it.

[jpgray]

4. I'm not angry, and Dean still looks good to me

He's one of only three candidates I sent $250 to, the others being Kucinich and Kerry. In fact, like Kerry, I'm probably too much of a cold fish when it comes to politics--I don't get riled, but I sure as hell want to make things right. Dean's policies are about as good as any other major candidate, his team has a genius for campaigning, and he himself comes across as genuinely concerned about a wide range of issues, many of which he has a good stance on.

The only time I get actually ANGRY at Bush etc. is when I watch them speak on TV. It fades pretty quickly after that. I am outraged at what they have done to our country, but yet I don't feel "angry" all the time, if that makes any sense at all. :P

[SheilaT]

5. For what my opinion

as a Dean supporter is worth, I don't think he comes across as an angry psychopath. Most of the time he's quite low key and coherent. I've now met him in person three times and he's not angry all the time. He's capable of showing an angry persona.

We should all be angry all the time about the theft of the 2000 election, the rolling over and playing dead on the part of most House and Senate Democrats, the further loss of Democratic seats in 2002. What's been done to this country in the past almost three years is completely appalling.

Dean's supporters are energized (as should all supporters of all the candidates be). We're working together in numbers at a grassroots level that I think is completely unprecidented in American politics. All too often I'm seeing that energy interpreted as smugness or as bashing the other candidates. Well, for the most part that energy is simple enthusiasm for our guy Howard Dean.

What worries me the most right now are the people who support other candidates who say that if Dean's the nominee they won't vote for him. Okay, so four more years of Bush is preferable?

[Jack_Dawson]

6. Little Danny

If you were seething since the election (I was pissed too, but had to let it go in order to move on with my life), I can see how Dean appealed to you. He was the first democrat to not fall in line with the Bush ass-kissing that was everywhere. And people loved it, and he became a media firestorm.

Loyalty is a great thing, and obviously if you've already sent the guy money and told all your friends about him, you have a vested interest in him getting the nomination.

That said, I believe, as do a lot of folks, that in terms of getting the most electoral votes, Clark appeals to a greater percentage of the electorate. He polls well among men, blacks, southerners, active military, veterans and of course the "Hollywood elite."

I know in my heart of hearts that Bush doesn't stand a chance going toe-to-toe with Clark. I absolutely know this and would place serious money on it. But Dean has a rabid following and by all accounts, has the nomination locked up. I hope it's not the case, because I believe it WILL be a Dukakis-esque ass whupping for our party, but I'm still holding out for a Clark candidacy.

[last1standing]

7. Dean supporters do not have rabies as you just implied.

And apparently, more voters think that Clark is more likely to take that "Dukakis-esque ass whupping" than Dean.

Clark is a good candidate and I hope him the best, but you're post has really disgusted me. We were talking about anger, passion and hope. All you can do is try to spread your festering hatred of other Democrats.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

8. Whoa!

Calm down buddy! I don't think that's what he's saying at all. He's just pointing out that Dean has a very loyal following (which is true) and that he doesn't believe Dean can win. That's all.

[Jack_Dawson]

11. Seriously

Thanks Danny, that was my point exactly. Dude needs to take a Xanax.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

12. No problem

We Deanies should certainly be used to hearing those points by now!

[last1standing]

13. Sorry, I did go too far.

I had just read a post trying to convice people that Dean was in cahoots with big energy without any proof and it set me off. Yours was the next post I read and I took it out on you.

But if Dean gets trounced in the general election, it'll be because any of our candidates would. Dean, Clark, Kerry, and Edwards are all grade one contenders and deserve to be treated as such.

But anyway, sorry again. I'll count to 10 before my next post.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

15. These are trying times for Dems

We're all angry or worried or manifesting anxiety in some form, and it's natural, however unfortunate, that we're going to take it out on each other. I personally will be very happy when we just have our fucking nominee already and can all just focus on that.

[LeahMira]

16. Elaborate, please.

I know in my heart of hearts that Bush doesn't stand a chance going toe-to-toe with Clark.

OK, so exactly why? What is Clark going to be able to say that Dean (or any of the other candidates) can't or won't? Is it his experience in the military that gives him an edge... maybe more credibility-wise than message-wise? Does he seem to think better on his feet than Dean or the others? If you could put your finger on exactly what Clark has that Bush can't answer, it would help.

Also, do you think it's possible that another candidate can learn from Clark (assuming he cares to teach it)? Or do you think it's a matter of personality, presentation, style, etc.?

Recall that Clark pretty much was drafted so there must be some enthusiasm and passion there.

Could we get Dean's passion, anger, enthusiasm with Clark's Bush-beating ability? All rolled up into one? Or is it the anger and passion that puts you off?

PS... I'm not fond of Clark at all, and I really don't "get it" about his appeal, so you may have a tough row to hoe here.

[Jack_Dawson]

22. Well...

Not sure how open-minded you are to this, but you have to consider the repugs' first ad they've run in Iowa. They are, VERY predictably, painting the democrats as soft on terror as opposed to Bush who has been at the "war on terror" helm now for over two years. Whether it's complete bullshit or not is beside the point. The republicans have shown their hand, and are going to make the "War on Terror" their central campaign theme.

Now if you're a republican, you're licking your chops to face Dean, because he will be PAINTED as the "draft-dodging anti-war soft-on-terror, inexperienced in foreign affairs" candidate. Again, whether or not that's bullshit (and it is) is beside the point. Bush's $200 million will buy ENDLESS and repetitive advertising boiling the election down to "Bush: Strong on Terror" vs. "Dean: A soft and inexperienced draft-dodging gay marriage endorsing unfit-for president lefty." Now you and I may be smart enough to see that for what it is - smearing. But there are a whole lotta people out there who will actually buy into that load of crap!!!

Now the LAST guy they want to match up with is Clark! How are you going to call a four-star general soft? You can't. How are you going to question his patriotism? You can't. How will you question his heart, his courage? Again, no dice. OK well maybe he's stupid. Oops wrong again. He's a Rhodes Scholar, four language-speaking intellectual with masters degrees in economics and philosophy.

There isn't anything Bush does that Clark doesn't do better. That is not a guy you want to run against if you're Karl Rove.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

24. They'll do it anyway

Now the LAST guy they want to match up with is Clark! How are you going to call a four-star general soft? You can't. How are you going to question his patriotism? You can't. How will you question his heart, his courage? Again, no dice. OK well maybe he's stupid. Oops wrong again. He's a Rhodes Scholar, four language-speaking intellectual with masters degrees in economics and philosophy.
There isn't anything Bush does that Clark doesn't do better. That is not a guy you want to run against if you're Karl Rove.

The republicans will use those same talking points against WHOEVER the candidate is. This is the party that was able to characterize Max Cleland as a soft-on-defense terrorist-coddler.

Clark is my number 2 choice and I would be very proud to call him president, but I'm just not sold on the idea that he is a shoe-in, despite his obvious strengths, which you listed. In a logical world you would be absolutely correct that his advantages would be plenty to put him over the top. But this is an irrational, easily frightened electorate and a party who has no compunction about repeating the most outrageous lies until they stick.

The Bush administration are first and foremost a bunch of thugs, in my opinion, and the only way to deal with thugs is to hit back twice as hard, twice as often, and Dean seems to me like the candidate to do that. This isn't to say that Clark hasn't taken it right to them time and again --- it's just that Dean seems more, shall we say, eager to get these guys.

[Jack_Dawson]

26. Dean has a lot of fire...

I'm just saying he makes a bigger target, that's all. I'll fully support whoever the nominee turns out to be.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

27. A bigger target indeed

I can certainly see how he would look like he has a gigantic bull's eye painted squarely on his ass.

[asjr]

10. anger

The "anger" I have had has been simmering since 2000. Frankly, it gives me hope. And anger may not be the right word. Passion is closer to it. Dean has passion, some may see it as anger but I believe it is his passionate speech that moves people. Naturally the Repubs will home in on this because they will do anything to discredit any Dem candidate. As many do I have my up days and down days, but thankfully there are more up days. This is the first election I have ever given money to a candidate and I feel it is money well spent.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

14. I pretty much agree with you

But as the primaries near I think I may be experiencing some doubts, which is probably a sensible thing. I just want to know that I'm amking the right choice, for the right reasons, and not appealing simply to rage, fear, and so forth.

I agree also, that I view Dean's demeanor as passionate as opposed to angry, and it was certainly that which I found moving and resonant about him initially.

[asjr]

17. Go with

your inner feelings. Go with your heart. All of us can be doubting Thomases at times and although I think any of our candidates could win, my heart belongs to Dean.

[sweetheart]

18. Anger is the issue for the WHOLE party

As Dr. Dean is the frontrunner, then whether we are agreeing that expressed hostility from a future president is appropriate. The frontrunner (likely nominee) then speaks even now for all those who will be his constituents.

Anger is the device of a child who can't actually do something about a situation. A mature adult simply adjusts their behaviour (like winning the presidency) and channels the energy that could be vented as anger in to a progressive approach.

I think Dr. Dean has risked branding the entire party with his divisive tactic, and that the risk will lose us all an election. It is not whether he is really angry in his soul, rather that in seeing right to express it, he relegates us all, even not-dean supporters to the childish extreme. Though it might win support amongst the party faithful, this tactic is a SURE LOSER IN A GENERAL ELECTION.

That Mr. Dean has seen right to use this divisive tactic to speak for us all is the question i raise... and i think he is wrong to do so. Mr. Dean is already facing severe media branding over the anger he has expressed thus far, and you can keep the 2004 "great anger" campaign buttons in your dresser until we have a chance to win in 2008. The republicans will kick our ass with that stupid approach.

[LeahMira]

25. Anger comes from hurt also...

Anger is the device of a child who can't actually do something about a situation. A mature adult simply adjusts their behaviour (like winning the presidency) and channels the energy that could be vented as anger in to a progressive approach.

And you are right... sooner or later you get to the point where you are tired of being angry all the time and ready to make sure that no one else ever has to face what you had to face.

Democrats had to face a good (not perfect, but good) man being dragged through the mud of an impeachment. They had to face the election being taken from a good (but not perfect) man by a man who is beneath pond scum. And they have had to watch all their progress and hard work for over fifty years being dismantled and called every name in the book. Guys, that hurts. For a lot of us, it means that what we have struggled for over many years is now being totally devalued and tossed aside like yesterday's dirty underwear.

Don't let them get away with it. Let's make sure that kind of thing can never happen to our children either... down to the seventh generation. Let's take back our pride and our achievements.

[tnlefty]

19. Dean's angry.....Kerry cusses....who/what next?

I will never get over the selection, but I know that for me Smirk's arrogance under the circumstances has merely added fuel to that anger. Dean gets fired up when speaking about Smirk's* f*^#ups. That's okay with me because I don't see him looking like an angry nutcase. However, anytime that I can stomach looking at Smirk* he has the cocky cowboy routine going complete with those narrow, dark, angry eyes and that stupid smile/grin/smirk expression.

When I watched the General on c-span the other day I noticed that he seems a little miffed, also. All I can say is good. If people would get their heads out of their asses they might see a little more to be pissed about.