Dean and the "anger thing"

[sweetheart]

I wholly respect how someone could be angry... but not in the eyes of a presidential candidate. When i see that sort of fire in the eyes of someone who aspires to mega-political power, it concerns me deeply, as it suggests immaturity.

If Mr. Dean himself ever takes recommendations, i would say to him to watch out about the anger... i won't vote for him because of that... it is inappropriate. Anger should never ever ever ever be in the eyes of a man who seeks that much political power. What gives.

Maybe i've misread his eyes, but it seems i'm not alone given the world press, so i have to ask why? Please be civil, i'm asking for an explanation, and perhaps an election-winning correction in image.

My father is a dean supporter... but he was an angry father. Why should a man who eschews the use of violence in war carry violence in his heart? Anger turns me off... which is why i'm a kucinich... but perhaps in this chat, you can change my views.

Kind regards,
-sweetheart

[slinkerwink]

1. Dean's not angry----he offers hope

go to http://blog.deanforamerica.com and look at DeanTV

[vi5]

3. One has nothing to do with the other...

Clinton was not angry in the least bit, especially in '92. And he offered hope.

[LoZoccolo]

12. He was running against someone more moderate.

Plus we didn't have to deal with this huge propaganda establishment like the conservatives do now. Someone's got to be able to take them on and confront the lies. They know they lie, and they're not likely to care unless someone humiliates them for it. It should be embarassing to lie like that over and over again, and it should be embarassing to be one of the people that wastes their time listening to that junk.

Part of what they do is just make it look like you're gonna have to face an onslaught of rhetorical brutality if you disagree with them - the conservatives are going to act like snobs, accuse you of treason, etc. If you were one of the people they were trying to indimidate, the audience, would you be more or less likely to just do what the bullies say if the only opposition put up against them was someone who could be easily ignored?

[Snellius]

58. I agree. Cheney is angry.

Dean is passionate but not out of control. Cheney is cold as ice and completely out of his mind.

[arewethereyet]

125. I kind of thought it was hemmeroids

but you could be right too

[vi5]

2. I agree to a point but why did you say..."violence in his heart"...

Not sure if you were referring to Dean, but I'd say that anger is a bit different than "violence" either in one's heart or otherwise.

I think Dean needs to lower the confrontation a notch, especially if he wins the nomination.

[sweetheart]

6. perhaps i'm sensitive

to anger, and i see it as potential violence. I used to see it in my father's eyes before he blew up and let loose a smack.

In martial arts, if i see that look in the eyes of someone i'm sparring with, i'll wind them up until they blow, and then pick them to pieces when they loose control. Methinks political candidacy a sort of martial arts sparring... anger, even repressed is a sure-fire loser.

[Woodstock]

15. Dean is not your father

I've seen angry people before, too, up close.

I've also seen Dean up close.

I don't see the anger you are seeing. I see a calm, decent guy who really cares about our country, and gets excited about rallying us to do something to save it. That's all.

[sweetheart]

27. ok i believe you

yet, i must say, that i'd rather be trusting my own eyes.

Maybe dean would have more supporters if whacky people like myself did not have this misinterpretation of the photographs he's put out in public.

I'm sure he believes its necessary... fine then i'm a fool, just HE BETTER FUKCING WIN if y'all are so sure.

[slinkerwink]

34. look at him on deanTV

the clips will show you that he's not angry and is a man with a great sense of humor.

[CTLawGuy]

110. Dean

is "angry" because the Dem party has acted dead in the water for two years. He is always the most fired up talking to the base. he is less angry when talked to mixed groups of voters. Ive seen him give many speeches. He knows that most dems on the ground want someone who can give the party a purpose again.


And come on, hasnt bush done a lot to make us angry?????

[virtualobserver]

4. Dean supporters don't see him as unjustifiably angry..........

He is just being forceful.

"violence in his heart"?

[cthrumatrix]

5. the only people angry...are the ones Dean will kick out of power and

control...stealing our rights...our social saftey systems and our future

[sweetheart]

11. I agree, and don't get me wrong

if he wins the candidacy, i'll support him against nader... but really... there is a way to be an opponent whilst being funny... and humour is a much more powerful manifestation of opposition than heat.

Tony blair never gets angry... sure he does, but not in his eyes... rather his cool intensity wins the fight.

[Cleita]

7. So, I worked for doctors.

They all have tempers. Patients only see the beside manner, they should hear what the staff hears. It's not an irrational anger, it's an anger addressed to incompetence, which if it isn't cut short could lead to medical disasters and lost lives. It cuts through the crap in a hurry. I couldn't care less if Dean weeds out incomptent staff this way. Clinton did as well. Clinton was known as having a temper. If pussy Bush had a temper in private, most of his incompetent staff would be gone.

It can also be deflected if it goes too far. I remember once a nurse telling one of the doctors I worked for to shut-up when he was on one of his tirades. It stopped him in his tracks. She walked away. He walked away and came over to me with a nice pleasant smile and handed me a patient's chart for billing.

This is another candidate attack that is a non-issue.

[sweetheart]

17. This is another candidate attack that is a non-issue

Why do you say that? It is not an attack. I'm honestly telling you why i'm not voting for him in the primary.

Anger and the potential for violence i read in his eyes and it intimidates me to concern. I'm sure he's a good man or so many of you would not love him so... just why is his image coming across 1000 miles of airwaves to leave me with that impression.

My critique is of marketing, not substance..... which is why i believe my question is constructive.

[Cleita]

32. You vote for anyone you like in the primary.

That's what primaries are for. The gut thing you have because of an abusive father should make you look at this more objectively. I am trying to give you a perspective, not a criticism.

I do believe the temper issue like the draft dodging issue (untrue) is something being exaggerated out of proportion by the right wing, because there is very little to fault the guy on.

Look what they did to Governor Davis in my state and they are using the same tactics. Don't let them win. If you have a candidate you prefer over Dean, all well and good, but don't spread right wing propaganda until you really look at the issue objectively.

I mean Clinton initially turned me off because he looked like someone I didn't like in the past. I didn't vote for him in the primaries, but I had to get past the irrational part of my dislike to look at him objectively as a candidate so that I could feel comfortable voting for him.

[October]

116. What's with the anger accusation?

I find Dean to be serious more than angry. Maybe that's because I'm from the NE, and I'm less likely to trust that calm, Texas "charm" thing.

Besides, all the candidates act angry in the debates -- I mean hell, Gephardt's eyebrows show up when his face reddens...

Kerry's walks around muttering "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean..." He's also the one using the "f-word" in interviews.

We need a little anger. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty ticked off with what's been going on since 2000.



On Edit: Sorry, I meant to respond to original post.

[bearfartinthewoods]

112. that's the arrogant doctor angle which i always thought was a myth

until i saw the arrogance develop in people. there is something about the profession that either attracts arrogant people or breeds it, imho.

i think it may be a self protection reflex to the whole power of life and death thing. how could one ever do the job? either one relies on religion, on faith in God or relies on one's faith in themseles.

what is arrogance if not an over developed faith in your own infalability?

[sleipnir]

8. I'll bet ya $1000 Kucinich is pretty pissed off underneath his skin

He's got anger too, we all do. It's a human emotion. Kucinich is just better at publically hiding his anger. I've seen speeches were he gets very worked up, some could even classify this as anger. I don't think we should be faulting candidates on basic human emotions ...We might as well say, "Don't Vote for Dean, he hasn't eaten today and boy is he hungry! I won't vote for hungry people."

Remember, Fear Leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering (not anger)

[ulysses]

9. anger doesn't equal violence

In the words of the bumper sticker, "if you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention". I have no beef with your support for DK - I suspect that Dennis is angry too.

[absyntheNsugar]

10. Anger and hate are two different things

Anger can lead to positive change
Hate can only lead to violence

Anger can spur one to justice
Hate can only lead to revenge

MLK was angry - but not hateful. He was angry that atrocities were committed against his people, but he didn't hate the White power structure that inflicted them.

Gandhi was agry at the Crown for opressing his people, but he had no hate for the Queen.

I'm angry, and most of us here are angry. But I would never say I hate Bush. I just dislike him ALOT!

[Woodstock]

13. Sorry, I've been following him all year & still don't see the anger thing

He says the same thing as the others about Bush's lies, etc. I just heard Edwards on CSPAN saying he's angry at Bush. And are you saying Kucinich isn't angry? He whips himself up like a banshee. More power to them all if they want to rally the troops against Bush. This Dean bashing is just repeating Rove propaganda.

[Eloriel]

14. I'm so very tired of this

Go take an extended up-close and personal look at this candidate and THEN come back and tell me he's an angry man.

Eloriel

[sweetheart]

18. i did, which is why i asked

i just went to the link and its in his eyes. Surely i'm just a fool, but then again, so are sooooooooooo many voters.

[maxanne]

22. then why bother

to come in and start YET ANOTHER Dean bashing thread?

It's in his eyes. Sweet bleeding jeezus - sounds like you've read too many Harlequin romances. "His feelings for her were there, in his eyes, for anyone to see." :puke:

Don't assume that the whole world is too silly to actually read position papers, and go listen to him speak.

[sweetheart]

28. your rude disregard is what i mean

it smells of the reflection of a misplaced anger.

I am saying so to be constructive, and did not read or participate in any dean bashing threads EVER. Go beat up your dog.

Bush made me sick from the evil in his eyes the very moment i first saw him... and my intutition proved not wrong. Words spoken are only lies... the eyes are the window to the soul.

I vote on eyes, not words... the latter always change.

[maxanne]

33. you tell me to go beat up my dog

and then call me rude?

Does being challenged equate with rudeness to you somehow?

And if you can't see my eyes, how can you tell if I'm angry???

[sweetheart]

40. your curt and dismissive tone

was uncalled for... and i suggested you put the energy elsewhere. I course i don't want your dog to be sore... :-)

The tone you put was flippant, and missing my point that you have the opportunity to be sympathetic and woo me to seeing "no anger" and instead you were dismissive and, given my tone of the original post, a tad rude.

So yes, too much anger.... its endemic.

[maxanne]

41. why is it my duty

to be sympathetic to irrationality being passed off as logic?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seaglass]

54. sweetheart just wanted to lend you some support

yes, the most dismissive, hateful and rude posters on this board all seem to support the same candidate. After a while it makes one wonder why all these personality types are attracted to that candidate, there must be some correlation. I would trust your intuition.

I would also suggest you make liberal use of the Ignore button.

[Hep]

57. Sorry, no they don't

Many candidates have similarly dismissive, hateful, and rude manners. Manners which I would classify as the worst. I've seen it all over. It's shameful. Let's not contribute to the spirit by singling out candidates. It almost puts us at their level, don't you think?

[sweetheart]

67. its not about candidates right here

Its about the people who are unnecessarily NASTY claiming to be democratic liberals towards others of us who raise an honest question... and like i said, if dean wins the primary, i'll support him in the runoff... so, you and max.. are just being foul.

It has no place in any discussion... you clearly can't handle yourselves and have lost decorum in this public chat. It indeed does not speak well for Mr. Dean, but certainly i don't hold your behaviour against him.

I started this discussion because dean is the frontrunner, and if he is to be someone i eventually HAVE to support, even though i don't agree with his politics yet see him as a lesser of 2 evils to bush, i raise my issue in public that it might be a constructive criticism... and some folks are simply very childish with any criticism.

This hopeful person, was supportive of me, not because i'm right, but because you guys are off and an embarassment. If you really want to be a supporting evangelist for Mr. Dean in public, i suggest learning the decorum of civility... and sorry hemp, but this is generally intended for all the rude folks who've flamed away on this thread like i've insulted their mother's fat ass.

[Hep]

71. You're wrong

my point is that no single candidates' supporters have a monopoly on rudeness.

I can handle myself just fine. I feel as though you are taking offense at any challenge of your views.

I'm open minded and fair for the most part. You don't know me at all. Very judgmental.

[sweetheart]

77. sorry hep

I've been back and forth reading what amounts to hatemail on this thread, and i "over" replied to yourself. Indeed, you have been mostly balanced in your support in this discussion.

Rudeness is uncalled for, period... by any candidates supporters... if i have been rude to you, i'm sorry.

regards,
-s

[Hep]

108. I appreciate it

And I will admit that some of my responses have been terse.

It isn't that I do'nt appreciate your views or the way you go about making your decisions, it's that sometimes it is hard to differentiate between those with legitimate feelings and those who spend their time trying to bring things down. I'm sorry as well.

[shanti]

62. sorry, but politeness doesn't win elections

especially in this upcoming election. fervor and conviction DO, and dean has it in spades. that's what i see in the doctor's eyes and i support him without reservation - and have from the start.

to quote bob marley: "who feels it, knows it"

[sweetheart]

70. indeed you are right

but this is hearts and minds on the home party website, not an election. I made a correctable criticism of style, not that he is a bad man or an unacceptable candidate. If i have to vote for him, sure as hell, i hope he wins.

[rucky]

75. Misplaced anger?

He's channeled this so-called anger into one of the most amazing campaigns anyone's seen in quite awhile.

If he were disorganized, I'd agree, but the Dean camp knows exactly what they're doing.

Don't confuse punching walls with screaming from the hilltops. You call it anger, I call it passion. I consider myself to be intuitative as well - who doesn't?

Maybe Dean reminds you of someone? My intuition tells me there's something personal that may be affecting your judgement this time. Doesn't make you right or wrong - but maybe broaden your criteria beyond the eyes & try to get into these guys' noggins.

[sweetheart]

79. thank you very much, rucky

That was the best reply to my concerns. If other dean supporters in this thread used your tactics when dealing with the wary non-dean voters come towards runoff time, its a proper approach.

You din't assault me, yet lead me to feel like i could potentially support him. Thank you honourable sir.

sincerely,
-sweetheart

[TLM]

88. Welcome to my ignore list...

You can bash Dean all you want... but your attacks are not facts, nor do they matter to the objective minded person.

Goob bye

[bearfartinthewoods]

114. you cast voters away so easily

i don't get it..

[retyred]

98. Go beat up your dog? Zing

Now that "IS" funny!!!!


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. a man can write whatever he wants...say whatever he chooses but

the eyes give a glimpse of his soul.

i'd like to name the author but i forget.

[Woodstock]

25. Did you just say it's in his eyes??????????

Yes, I imagine soooooooo many voters pick a guy by going to his link and looking in his eyes. I imagine the soooooooo many voters who have Dean as frontrunner have just never looked in his eyes yet. Although I've met him a couple of times, and I'd have sworn he just had nice, pleasant blue eyes and an expression of kindness and caring. My bad.

[sweetheart]

36. yes, his eyes

As a buddhist of many 1000's of hours of meditation, i look at people's eyes and do not listen to their words.

It makes me a very successful and refined marketing professional where i have helped some of the world's largest software companies achieve market dominance by spinning their products to win global market share. I can't explain "why" this intution is like it is... and that the world's newspapers talk about dean's anger and even a coupla folks on this thread have said they see my point... oh' i must be fantasizing.

The same eyes that see bush and feel grossly nauseous are wary of dean... i'm telling you not to be nasty or to get your kneejerk defense posturing... but to inform you that in a marketing sense, he might be able to tone it down just a tad.

[maxanne]

38. Ted Bundy

was reported to have had beautiful eyes.

[sweetheart]

42. i saw his photo

and not for me he din't. Clearly i'm just someone who is making this all up, and that is why every newspaper from the FT to the economist describes dean and his anger.

Perhaps i might REALLY trust my intution... and it has never let me down now in assessing public figures... and i'm sooo wrong about dean, that my seeing is simply just me, except for all the other people who see similarly.

In marketing, we often find that little things set a target segment off a product... and in listening sincerely to the thoughts/feelings of those people who are willing to speak up, given the nasty barrage of knee jerk defense on this thread, only an asbestos suited questioner gets unintimidated... yet the putoff is a genuine one for that target segment, and if it is taken as sincere feedback, often a product can be made to sell even better.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polpilot]

69. Dean just wants to get his hands on the nuclear button & blow us to hell!!

Have you noticed that when he gets mad he looks like Charlie Manson??

Demon Dean '04...

[sweetheart]

76. ha ha!

hey, please this is getting mistaken. Here is my formal remark, in case you misinterpret: "He is indulging in emotion that is below his standing and below that of what he hopes to achieve."

My concern in this, is that i do not feel included in "his" camp at all at all, even though i'm told i should unify the party and vote for him in a runoff were he to win a primary. I'm glad you're a happy spirit... we are allies in this opposition to *. :-)

[polpilot]

107. I ALWAYS try to 'mellow down' the frothy attitudes on this board.

Dean '04...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

130. Maybe it's just me but I can't tell the difference.

But hey, I scored a 5 on the "serial killer or computer programmer" quiz. So what do I know? :shrug:

[Hep]

59. Actually,

I think you mean through their eyes or into their eyes. At their eyes doesn't work for me. And I don't think the Buddhist tradition really means for you to look through their eyes when you're standing face to face, rather than looking at a picture. And I think it's more of a metaphor than a literal thing.

Many thousands of hours of meditation?

[sweetheart]

63. Psychic touch

Yes hep, i am really ordained in a buddhist monastic tradition, but that only suggests i've spent 20 years appreciating daily meditation... and things you only insult.

What's up hep? Your on the bully ad hominem chain too, eh? Don't speak too well for you either.

I am no enemy of you, maxine or dean... i merely make an observation, and the nasty treatment indicates you have poor style with your collegues and allies.

[Hep]

65. Things I insult?

Pleas show me where I insulted anything. Tolerance.

What's up hep? Your on the bully ad hominem chain too, eh? Don't speak too well for you either.

When's the last time you meditated?

I am no enemy of you, maxine or dean... i merely make an observation, and the nasty treatment indicates you have poor style with your collegues and allies.

No nasty treatment here. You're passing judgment all over the place. And frankly I feel as though you are being hostile. Seriously, I don't question how ordained you are, I just wonder what good it's doing you.

[maxanne]

101. don't question

sweetheart, Hep. If you do - you are hostile.

[sweetheart]

106. whatever

you guys are on a feeding frienzy.

I'm sorry if i've inappropriately been prickly... The thread has in it a lotta people who've been less than polite towards myself... and i've lost track of who and which post.

The browser is starting to crash now that the thread is over 100 posts and i will likely not be able to read it much longer.. or respond.

Best regards to both of you and your candidate.

Democrats 2004!!! we are united... and we fight like cats :-D

namaste,
-s

[Hep]

60. Hey Sweetheart!

Tell me how you do on this test!

http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/

[DemExpat]

72. lol..I got 10 out of 10 correct....

DemEx

[Hep]

74. Damn!

I only got 7.

[indigo32]

127. 9 out of 10

and Dean is NOT overly angry

[maxanne]

26. A question

Given the ammount of Dean bashing the other candidates are doing, why aren't they seen as angry??

Al Gore is a liar.

Liberal media.

Weapons of Mass Destruction.

:eyes:

[Woodstock]

19. That's just it - they haven't taken a good look at him

Just repeating what they've read in the corporate media. I thought it was up to Democrats to defend Democrats? I mean, when someone comes to me that voted for Bush last time and says he likes Kerry, I don't say Kerry sucks. I say, that's great to hear! I'll never in a million years understand why we are hell bent on defeating our own on this board.

[Selwynn]

16. I gotta agree - it concerns me greatly.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sweetheart]

123. if you please

Can you please explain your position further... i don't know why the moderator 86'd the post "name deleted" (sweetheart) as it was not in any way negative... rather it implored you to explain your views...

On one hand, i'm glad the moderator has gone and tossed the uglier parts of this thread, on the other... some parts weren't ugly and certainly this one was an aberration. Without being personal, i'm asking for an explanation to the conclustion your posted.

regards,
-s

[SPURGEMAN23]

20. We need a person that people see as genuine

I watched Gore, who I like very much to this day, sigh while Bush lied instead of pointing out the lies; I bet because he was told not to look angry or mean.

I saw him react to she SNL skit like they were his advisors and agree to most of what Bush said at the second debate instead of telling the American people that Shrubs team would wreak havoc in the world. I guess he was advised not to be angry or mean.

THEN, I watched him in the 3rd debate and he got in Bush's face. At that moment, America saw someone they could vote for. Ask anyone who watched the 2000 campaign and they will tell you that. He finally got angry and told people he would fight against bad policy.

So, you can have the first two and lose or put Bush on the defensive and win. I'll take the later, thank you.

[Woodstock]

21. Nicely said

The first speech I heard Dean give, I had no idea who he was. All I knew was, he was saying the things about Bush I had long wanted to hear a Democrat say.

[SPURGEMAN23]

23. Exactly

I first saw him speak after the '02 elections and he responded to the first question, which was how come Dem governors were winning Con seats, and the first thing I ever heard him say was a direct attack on Pubs as fiscally irresponsible-- he said something like "because we told voters that republicans should never be trusted with other people's money" Man how I was longing to hear something like that. I was for him instantly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I'm Not A Dean Supporter

but there is a place for "righteous anger"....

"I know there is a God and he hates injustice"


-Abraham Lincoln

[Cha]

29. First of all he's not "mr" Dean....Dean has earned

the title of Govenor and Doctor! Secondly, my father is a Dean
Supporter and he is the Sweetest thing. I'm so fortunate to have him as a father! Thirdly ..I am a Dean supporter and Dean's niceness really appeals to me. And, of course, his Passion and the Fire he has in his Belly to actually lead us out of this mess is very inspiring to me.

[sweetheart]

83. Dr. Dean is a passionate, sweet man...

and sometimes he can be very intense. That is a healthy and inclusive way of neutralizing the anger accusation... good. Thank you zidzi for helping me understand him.

I'm glad my 70+ father supports him, as surely he sees potential...

Peace,
-s

ps. My father, god love him, was a mcgovern voter.

[milkyway]

30. Anger can be a good thing.

Jesus Christ was angry. George Washington was angry. Thomas Jefferson was angry. FDR was angry. JFK was angry. Martin Luther King was angry. Almost all social change has begun with anger at the present conditions. What matters is how that anger is expressed and how it is used. It's bad when you use anger to fuel violent destruction, but it's good when it's used to fuel constructive change for the benefit of the common good.

I've liked Howard Dean for many months now, but it wasn't until this week that I decided that he was definitely my guy (I also like Clark a lot). I've never felt that Dean is full of bitter anger; instead, he gives off a lot of positive energy and hope. I see him not as an angry guy, but as a can-do fighter that thinks he can make things right again.

It's odd that you mention Kucinich. Of all the candidates, he is closest to my left wing politics but after watching him during the debates I have gradually started seeing him as a pissed off guy fighting the good fight, but without a real positive energy around him. Dean, on the other hand, is upbeat and exuberant. I think this is his main appeal to a lot of us. He expresses our anger with how things are, but also makes us believe that we have the power to fix it.

[DianeK]

31. dean is rightiously angry..

as anyone who has eyes in their head and a brain in their skull should be...a wonderful quote from St.Augustine describes wonderfully the hope that dean offers

"Hope has two beautiful daughters, anger at the way things are and courage to change them." - St.Augustine

[Cha]

35. And that is a beautiful quote!

[mzmolly]

37. You don't consider Kucinich angry?

The Dean anger thing is overblown garbage put out by 'wishy washy wimpy' Democrats who are ANGRY that Dean is in the lead.
End of story.

[sweetheart]

47. Ok, compare these 2 photos

Your nasty comment is unworthy of someone who supports your cause to return this country to democracy.... this anger thing seems pathological.

Pearls before swine. I think the anger will destroy all democratic chances to unite the country, and your tone towards my open question speaks to that. End of Dean Story.. 4 more years of bush story.

[Hep]

56. Kucinich looks nothing like a red X in a box

Are you really going to try to compare photos and screenshots? Like anyone can't freeze frame ANYONE else strategically?

[Hep]

39. From people of priveledge

anger seldom makes sense. For those constantly slighted by their leaders, anger comes more naturally.

[AP]

64. Yet, the candidate who grew up with the most privilege has

the most anger.

And the candidates who grew up with the least chose not to exploit anger for political gain.

Go figure.

[Hep]

66. The most privilege?

I didn't do background checks on all of the candidates.

And the most anger? I still believe that's just buying into a false perception.

"We don't need YOU to come down here and tell us what to do."

[Hep]

68. Furthermore,

I'd like to read the study in which it is concluded that socio-economic background has any direct relationship with conveyed anger.

[sweetheart]

82. Well if you had

you'd find that mr. Dean has an EXTREMELY similar WASP upbringing in a very priviledged evironment similar to mr. Bush... even overlapping in some school or another.

Who is "us" is in your latter remark, is it ALL of your personalities, or just your royal "we". :-) Don't be such a stiff neck... its a friendly playground. All of us will support dean if he is in the runoff... be kind.

[Hep]

109. The latter part of my post was a quote from Edwards

showing off his ability to get angry. I quoted it to point out that no single socio economic group has a monopoly on anger.

[madfloridian]

43. Me and the anger thingy.

Go well together. I think if a person is not angry, then they are not aware. I have an uncle who is not angry, but he thinks Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter are wonderful. He is quite at peace as they strip him of his Medicare, soon to start on Social Security.

He has 3 grandsons soon to be of draft age, and he is in total denial about the plans of this group.

Maybe your dad is right to be angry. I have never seen anything like what is happening now. I am very angry.

[sweetheart]

45. Respect

What you say is indeed the best defense of being angry. I think its an election loser in the long run, however.

By the very nature that people feel it respectable, clearly they disagree and that is their perogative. Just i hope the majority of americans is ready to agree with your statement, and not just those politically sensitive outspoken ones.

As your ally in this next runoff election.

Peace,
-s

[madfloridian]

46. I just don't like to see Dean and anger used by his own against him.

I expect the GOP to do so.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

52. I agree.

It's another basher all right with a right wing talking point.

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sweetheart]

92. absolutely right

You can see, given the vehement attacks on my integrity, person and viewpoints from a good many posters, i've managed to stay rather aloof except for a few bobbles... sorry for getting a bit peaved for having a squad of haters flame my ass.... the asbestos knickers only deflect sooo much and i'm writing first draft responses.

You would do no better... so spare me the spiritual advice.

[maxanne]

103. so much

for all those hours of meditation. So much for all that soulful contemplation. Glad to see it's paying off for you, sweetheart.

LOL

[sweetheart]

105. yes indeed :-)

It actually has... meditation don't mean you're not human... it means you know how to surrender to death.

This asswipe denied my ability to breach this debate by questioning my right to vote... and i defended myself. As an american buddhist, if i did not defend myself when attacked, i'd already be dead.

If you're on a mission to prove me fallible, i am. :-) I am also a lot more than a thread writer, and since the latter discussion has proven slightly less hostile than the earlier barrages, i'm going for a moonlit walk by the ocean with my dogs to dump the toxicity of the anger and frustration of the folks in this chat.

In truth, meditation does not care. It is silent. Buddhist monks seldomly participate in politics, you know the famous story of the zen monk and the illegitimate child... boils down to the word "whatever" in its Los Angeles meaning.

I only prodded you back for prodding me... i mean no ill will towards yourself. Please forgive any insult intended and otherwise.

Best regards LOL,
-s

[bearfartinthewoods]

115. well i don't meditate and i don't like DEAN

and unless and until he is our nominee, i will continue to point out what i see as his faults and weaknesses and if they happen to correspond to RW talking points then i'm right on the mark because i am talking about his faults and weaknesses.

sheeeesh...i have no problem with people offering other opinions or even trying to change my mind with facts but it bugs the shit outta me to see a bunch of people attack anyone on the smarmy personal level that this thread has demonsrated.

[JNelson6563]

53. the anger thing is way overplayed

but we should all be a little angry. I sure hope you can figure out why that is.

Julie

[Malva Zebrina]

55. Aren't most of us here, if not all of us angry at Bush and what he has

done from the time he couped the process , through all of the abuses and arrogance, for sending our children to fight a war that he lied about?

If anyone is not angry about that,I would question their psychological affect. I would also think there is no hope left for the human being that refuses to recognize that it takes anger to garner up enough strong support--people are rightfully angry-- they should be. Tell those people they are wrong to be angry? In favor of some "nice guy" enabling personna? Not the way I see it. The anger should be encouraged to be voiced and should be supported, not denied. It is the only thing left that will join the people into taking action--in the voting booth, hopefully.

[bitchkitty]

61. It's the office of President,

not your family dynamic. We need a fighter, and he's got plenty of fighting spirit. Dean's going to win!

[sweetheart]

78. as devils avocate on this one

As a once republican, who has just recently re-registered as a democrat, were you to give me advertizing control, i would EVISCERATE Dean in an election with 200 million dollars for commercials and an angry fool for an opponent... even though i loathe *, the anger is a disaster, and hence why the media has already fluffed it up to bludgeon dean's chances.

I too am angry at bush, and watching that video of "http://uprecedented.org" i was livid afterwards.

Perhaps i overstated my initial point for the dean people's sensibilities.... if perhaps he used some different photo's and stayed off the anger message, he'd double his already growing support following. I only support a winner, and if dean stays with the hostility, he's a mcgovern.

[DianeK]

84. you must be very young..

damn right i am angry, and i want a nominee that reflects that anger....60's are over my friend...we need our country back now...power is never given, it must be fought for and taken

[sweetheart]

91. i'm over 40

and the anger may win some hearts, and i agree with you... but ooh dear, it is a disaster in the public media... dean is already known as the anger candidate and they've not even really started with the tar and the feathers.

I admire your patriotism and respect its manifestation. May we win the next election in whatever guise.

[DianeK]

93. damn the media...

they are also the enemy..i don't give a damn about the media...our campaign is about attracting the independently minded voter..those who can and will seek out the truth on their own..if you are relying on cnn to give you perspective on any one of the candidates then i am afraid you are on the wrong track

[sweetheart]

99. as i'm voting from outside CONUS

i'm getting the BBC, the economist, the guardian and the Financial times as my primary sources along with god knows what on the internet.... and i have not seen Cnn in 9 months when i was last inside the us.

Even these sources speak of dean's anger, and the morally-pure but difficult position regarding the iraq war that most americans support. I am independently minded towards people who unite the big tent and who spare no effort to do so.... now having suffered with an asswipe * who can't unite his own bloody family except in crime.

The uniter factor is a big deal for me, and clinton, despite his foibles was an excellent uniter... likely though i have my misgivings with the man, were we to meet face to face, we'd end up in a political hug-and-makeup.

[madfloridian]

100. You know what? They will attack him on something.

Anger is a good thing to be attacked on. And if you paid attention to his interviews and speeches, you would find that is only a part of what he is about.

[sweetheart]

104. i have an american attention span

and as a kucinich voter, ive little knowledge of the others escept cursory glances at polls, platforms and DU chat... honestly, if Dr. Dean changed the photo's on the top of his website, perhaps with a different photographer, i might not even notice what i talk about... those photo's are not his best.

The outside world media has not exposed these candidates very well except to say pessimistically that dean is a macgovern and would only carry his northeast homeland. Hell. I want to win and i think Dr. Dean would be outstanding if he paired up with clark... understanding please that i really love mr. kucinich but on seeing his poll numbers and being somewhat realpolitik.

Mr clark is military and i don't see the anger. I like this about him, but his experience in civilian democracy is NIL and this i'm wary of... perhaps with dean, the dems have a security/liberal democracy play... and with some good marketing work to tune the message for all voting precincts and keep the nationwide message rather amorphous or we'll carry nothing south of PA.

[babzilla]

124. the photo on top of his website

the anger in his eyes is palpable eh?

and here is the current picture on the front page of his website.



"perhaps with a different photographer, i might not even notice what i talk about..."

LOL, how much does that excellent bit of marketing advice cost Sweetheart?

Damn the eyes, they burn, they burn. But then you say that Dean is outstanding when paired with Clark. So from whence does the evil anger arise? Is it the photographer? Is it the photographs released by the campaign? Understanding please that I don't know what the hell you are trying to say.

Sweetheart suggests: "Keeping the nationwide message rather amorphous"
that is a good campaign strategy ... for me to poop on.
I heart Triumph.

[sweetheart]

128. as you poop on me, please consider

that i too will be voting in our 2004 loss... and thank you very much for disregarding before considering my input. It seems the new american way, to deny before considering the evidence... teh WHOLE WORLD's FRIKING MEDIA are describing dean and his ANGER... clearly i'm just deluded, and you can deny until your knickers are grey with sweat, but come on.... be a tiny bit honest.

Its an issue... and denial is not a useful approch. Mr. Dean could adjust himself and his approach to win, or he can hack up all the democratic chances with the blessings of his fundamentalist faithful... sadly it appears the latter.

[babzilla]

133. I'm not pooping on you sweetheart

I'm pooping on the "Keeping the nationwide message rather amorphous" strategy.

I considered your input and then disregarded it, not the other way around. Your evidence moves me no more than your accusations of denial.

Why should Dean adjust himself when his approach is already winning?

What is your motivation to be Dean's special marketing/PR buddy? Is it your secret desire to be "voting in our 2004 loss" or do you just want to finally prove what a fool your angry father really is?

Someone's got issues alright.

Hey, here is Dean's header photo on the official blog. Frighteningly angry, no? If only he could get some friendlier photos, I know you would be more supportive.

[Patriot_Spear]

85. Victim or fighter: the choice is clear...

Anger is an honest emotion- and a reasonable reaction to this Bush* nightmare.

Besides internalizing anger is unhealthy- it's knowing how to channel this emotion into something positive that's the key.

And I think has channeled our and his anger into an incredible political movement.

[ScreamingMeemie]

86. At this point in time, I am an angry, Extremely angry mother. When

any one of the candidate's expresses outright rage towards the mishandling of this country by this administration I am overjoyed. This, in my book, is a positive and always will be...the people on the hill aren't listening to me, someone has to reflect that anger.

And no I am not an angry mother in the respect that I mistreat my children...I am angry that their future is being shot to Hell...by a group of men who could give a crap less...

[sweetheart]

94. I wholly respect what you say

Just my question is less to do with anger as a reality, and more of anger as an image for the democratic ideals opposing bush.

Understand my motive... WHATEVER WORKS... and i'm happy to be wrong... if dean wins in 04 with an anger campaign shame on me... i'll wear a hairshirt and apologize personally to any person i've slighted even the least bit in this discussion.

Righteous anger is a stunt, expecially from someone with the sophistocated background of Mr. Dean. I'm mad as hell and i'm not gonna take it anymore. That was the cinema film "network" and not a presidential campaign.

Hey, if it works don't fix it.

[DianeK]

96. funny that you should bring that film up..

i watched that movie today as i did when it first appeard in a theatre oh so many years ago...there is nothing wrong with that and you are right, it is reminiscent of the dean campaign and it is striking a chord..people are mad as hell and dean is expressing that anger eloquently...that all being said, and after all i have said here..i give you and anyone reading this my solemn oath that i will support with money and time anyone who gets the democratic nod..this if funtime right now..the hard time is yet to come and i promise i am in it for the long haul...the goal? get this moron out of gore's house!

[TLM]

87. More memes...

Anger and violence are not the same thing.

Anger at injustice is a perquisite for democracy.

[sweetheart]

95. indeed, you speak the truth

Then it need only be in a heated speech or 2, perhaps a debate.... and he should get new photographs taken for his website.

[kerryistheanswer]

89. Dean sees the world as black and white

The key difference between Dean and other candidates (Kerry, Edwards) is his 'my way or the highway' attitude. Reminds me a bit of dubya.

I'm really tired of people on this board ripping Kerry for wanting it both ways.

WHO doesn't want it both ways? We all see the world as gray - at least those of us who are fair minded. We need to work together.

A Dean win will lead to continued divisiveness - this time, the anger will be coming from the other side, worst than during the Clinton era.

Of course, that's assuming Dean could overcome the Rove attack machine.

[sweetheart]

97. Welcome to DU !!!

It is a pleasure to meet you sir/madame.

Mr. Kerry is a wise and good man who is indeed a uniter. He is my second choice beyond kucinich, understanding that i'm for kucinich that the democratic party grow some policy sense, not that its a sure presidency win... i'll accept the REAL choice of whomever wins the democratic nomination and support said person.

I don't actually believe Mr. Dean is a black and whiter... but there is a subtle bit of factionalism that is evident in the divisiveness of this thread... here we are, a family opposing bush, yet the montagues have divided from the capulets.

Perhaps you are REALLY right, and he is that much a black/whiter which does indeed explain the divisive insurgency. Nevertheless, unless he can carry the south and the west, what's the point.

I can't buy that a nation that has supported bush all this time will vote a majority to be angry at him... dean may rile up his party extreme fundamentalist supporters, but the question is of 60,000,000 voters (to win) most of whom, even today, say that the invastion of iraq was the right thing to do.

[Gloria]

102. #89, that's been my reaction....Dean's pugnacious apporach at first

attracted me because I was longing for someone to say something against Bush. But over time, I got a weird feeling that I was seeing the mirror of Bush. I don't want to continue at this level, I want to reach for a high level of discourse again. Kerry and Clark get angry, but maintain a demeanor that make Bush look even jerkier than he is. I always feel that Dean is half a loaf--the anger part...which he does very well. Whereas as Kerry and Clark not only have indignation, but express a wider vision.
They are both very presidential and would possibly wear a lot better over the long haul...

[CTLawGuy]

111. what do you think of

kerry using the "f" word in an interview??

[sweetheart]

120. ... do you mean "food"

I agree that starvation is a huge global problem, and that it should be a serious focus of people who claim to believe in the reduction of suffering in our world.

If he said "fick", what do i care? Kerry is not the discussion. Unfortunately for reasons beyond my knowing, he's not a frontrunner.

[October]

117. I don't get this accusation.

I find Dean to be serious more than angry. Maybe that's because I'm from the NE, and I'm less likely to trust that calm, Texas "charm" thing.

Besides, all the candidates act angry in the debates -- I mean hell, Gephardt's eyebrows show up when his face reddens...

Kerry's walks around muttering "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean..." He's also the one using the "f-word" in interviews.

We need a little anger. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty ticked off with what's been going on since 2000.



(Apologies for posting twice -- first post should've been to original message.)

[October]

118. This seems personal

I mean, all the candidates seem angry.

You like Kucinich, yet he seemed pretty pissed off at the last debate, holding up those newspapers and yelling at Tom Brokaw. That made me a little uncomfortable as a viewer. Yet, I haven't ruled him out.

Kerry was snippy during that same debate (a passive form of anger), and came off as rude and arrogant. And again, I haven't scratched his name off the list. Sharpton took Brokaw to task on the Tawana Brawley case thing. They all try to show their "passion" or "anger" at what's going on.

This just seems to me like maybe Dean reminds you of someone you don't like/trust. You seem to be ascribing immaturity to Dean without merit -- just a gut feeling or something.

I think with so much time left in the campaign, it's pretty much a guarantee each one of these candidates will slip and make us cringe at one point or another. They're all human, after all.

[sweetheart]

121. Here's the deal

Anger by the democratic frontrunner makes it the issue of campaign and all competitors will try to emulate what "appears" to be working... and all the while ROVE is sitting behind his video recorder laughing his ass off.

Mainstream america will not elect a president of anger. It is a childish emotion indulged in by people who are less actualized in thier lives than a "president" and it only hurts our chances and relegates alll democrats to the sidelines in the future runoff.

Dean's chocie to make this candidacy confrontational is unwise. You clearly disagree.... and my dad voted for mcgovern... and i remember back then thinking what a fool he was to vote for someone who obviously had no chance. As long as it works, who am i to argue.

BTW. As i'm off television and outside the US territory (a us citizens voting) i don't see the results of debates except still pictures of divisive glances and looks... 100% dean so far between the lot... he may be front runner... and by supporting his tactics as raved on by his extreme supporters... we could ALLLLLLL LOSE in 2004... that is the serious concern... and reason why a non dean supporter has the right to speak out.

[babzilla]

126. as a little marketing tyke

when you remember way back then, who did you recommend to your dad to vote for to stop him from being a fool?

Was your father angry because he had the wrong photographer or was it because his little sweetheart was harping on the prospect of us alllll losing? That is another serious concern.

[sweetheart]

132. ok my father....

He's out right now, but i rang him in seattle to ask so you'd get a direct marketing response.... My father has a tendency to be obsessively angry, and certainly i've observed this tendency... a lot.... and it is unhealthy, and destroyed my parents marriage... so i don't trust his anger-recommendations.

He is grown up in philadelphia, is over 70 and is on many 1000's of dollars of medication per year at his age but puts that all aside in favour of what he feels is right. He loathes shrub as I do... and we'll vote as a family in this next runoff despite the primary, so thank you for not being rude about this disfunctional american family. My dad once worked in the steel works in pensyllvania as a young man, and is a characteristic PA born and bred blue blooded amercian. He is angry as hell about bush, spent a decade fighting the repukes regarding the vietnam war, and is sick to death of another stupid repuke warmonger.... that he's really just lost sense of what is marketable, and indulges in his own personal concern.

I have not consulted him, but he reads this site anyways... "hi dad" :-) Perhaps if he reads this, he'll explain his loathing and reason for deanification.... but my dad never designed a winning nationwide or worldwide marketing approach... whereas i've been so involved... sybase is the world market leader in financial messaging. Dad is more focused on his life in the northwest having abandoned Los angeles to the immigrants in the 80's along with the rest of the family... except the sister who lives in the gated community.

Dad votes with his heart... and i respect that... but i want to win... and i know that with 200 million, the GOP will destroy a petty angry democratic party. Maybe its not the pictures, but the global press describing his anger, or his angry speaches... no matter.... its a marketing issue and i'm glad you respect that i really intend a constructive chat... and clearly i'm not the only one.

[babzilla]

134. so it is a branding issue is it?

so sad about your dad that "he's really just lost sense of what is marketable, and indulges in his own personal concern."

What a coincidence, I work at an advertising agency in Seattle, vote with my heart when I get the chance and want to win back the whitehouse more than anything right now.

Guess where that thinking has has lead me to sweetheart?

To Dean that's where.

Yes, even though I work in advertising/marketing I still support Dean and his angry speeches (not speaches). Want to talk direct marketing response? How about polling data? Check it sweetheart, Dean is leading, when you get ahold of your dad he'll probably tell you the same, even though he's never designed a winning nationwide or worldwide marketing approach.

As a native Californian who has moved to Washington I have to say I am intrigued by your notion of abandoning Los Angeles to the immigrants, perhaps those immigrants have as much of a right to reside in L.A. as the rest of your family, just ask Arnold. The current governer of California was also once an immigrant if I recall correctly, and he has designed a winning nationwide/wordwide marketing approach, much to the horror of many.

For some reason I don't find these pictures from Dean's website to be angry or offensive in the least, maybe it is the global press after all. Thanks for the constructive chat.







I must admit, I do love your phrase "anger-recommendations".

[Scott Lee]

119. Let's play "How many variations of a theme can we hum"

OK? The theme is - Dean is Angry.

Go!

[sweetheart]

122. too much DU

I've never ever read or commented on a dean thread for a year.

It is in the economist and the british newspapers describing the democratic contest, and "the anger". It is also indicated in similar press that the american midwest (ohio, michigan...etc) are the future middle of the democratic future.... no anger... reality.

Each of us is a unique individual. I am not CNN, and i don't select content based on marketability... rather i broached this highly unpopular topic to question the rationale of marginalizing the entire democratic candidacy because of the populist-extremist tactics of one man.

[ima_sinnic]

129. of all the cockamamie arguments . . .

you say Dean carries "violence in his heart"? if you are hoping to use this "gift" you have for supposedly looking into somebody's heart you better not quit your day job. Were you to spend even a little while actually listening to him and reading his speeches, you would see how FAR from reality you really are.

You say anger turns you off yet your number 1 candidate is so shrilly ANGRY I had to turn down the volume on the TV yesterday during his speech. Kucinich comes across as a crazed, spittle-spraying ANGRY lunatic when he gets wound up. In fact, it is that quality which makes him a truly UNelectable candidate.

I have listened to and watched several speeches by DOCTOR Dean (not MISTER as you so disrespectfully insist on calling him even after another poster pointed this out) and have yet to see or even hear this ANGER of which you claim to be oh so able to "see". He is plainspoken, he is truly compassionate, he has soul and passion, and he is giving all us disenfranchised and alienated "liberals" (ie, anybody that's not 100% for BushCo) a voice and a power.

And even after the photos from his web site are posted--both with magnanimous, generous, embracing smiles--you still go on in this most completely out-of-it way about how he "needs a new photographer" or something. sheesh.

Sounds like you have some personal issues to work out--why project them onto a presidential candidate and burden this board with them? all in all, I think you just like to hear yourself go on in this most negative way (quite UNbuddhist, by the way) and then to be able to get all offended and huffy when someone calls you on it.

[sendero]

131. I'll be glad...

... when this ridiculous "angry man" meme dies a slow painful death.

I saw Dean on Fox Sunday today. He did not come across as angry at all. He did not based his candidacy on anger, he based it on the hope that Americans would see that they have more in common than differences.

Unless something dramatic happens, Dean will be the nominee. I hope he convinces Clark to take the VP spot, and together there is almost no way Bush* can beat them.