This is what DU used to be like

[Eloriel]

Once upon a time, what feels like a very long time ago.

Someone posted these links in another forum, and I was delighted to get them back (after my hard disk crash some time back and my inability to access any saved bookmarks from DU1 like we'd been told we would be able to do, or maybe I just don't know the secret code -??)

Anyway, most of these links were my threads, which is not why I'm posting them. I'm posting them because they remind me of so many truly fabulous threads which used to be the rule here at DU instead of the exception -- threads where an incredible amount of research and insightful analysis went on, the kind of threads you see only rarely nowadays, if at all.

Pity, too. And no, I don't think DU will ever be the same again. For one thing, I think some of the really heavy hitters have long since gone, or don't much come here to post anymore, and there's hardly "the audience" for this kind of thread these days anyway.

Maybe one or two of you will find these of value.

I sure as hell wish I had all my old DU1 bookmarks. :-(

Eloriel

Reality 501: A DU Course Syllabus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6920&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


REALITY 501: Course Syllabus Special Addendum - The 60s
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=14030&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


Reality 501: Syllabus UPDATE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


The US, the Saudis, and oil (a piece of Eloriel's Big Picture)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8558&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


One more time: LEO STRAUSS AND THE NEO-CONS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7200&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


Conspiracies: Self-interest, fear, inertia, values
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5535&forum=DCForumID70&archive=yes


This one's active and alive in the Bush and Conservatives Forum:
Stephanie's PNAC Links Archive (Redux)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=110&topic_id=80

Its original version: PNAC - The Links Archive
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=3021&forum=DCForumID12&archive=

[Booberdawg]

1. Thanks! I bookmarked to read later.

[Shakespeare]

2. There's a lot of raw data from the earliest days of DU...

...that predates these links, and which is also worth meandering through the archives to read.

Check the old dirt forum, especially (now moved into the Bush & Conservatives forum, I think).

There is information that has direct relevance on the 2004 race, if one looks closely.

[sleipnir]

3. Nothing is like the good ole' days, huh...

Wish I had a dollar (not a nickel, due to inflation) for each time I heard this argument.

BUT...I must say that I did appreciate reading those threads. You're right Eloriel, it will never be the same...there's too much hatred in the air now on DU and no one wants to post more than two paragraphs it seems (like this post)...Thanks for the timewarp back! :)

[Eloriel]

7. It's more than the acrimony

tho I'm sure that plays a part.

Eloriel

[cliss]

4. Thanks, Eloriel

Looks like there's lots of reading here. It'll take me a while to get through them.

I'm glad it was posted here in the Meeting Room because articles move much slower here, and you can go back to them for a few days before they vanish into the data warehouse.

[ultrafoil]

5. cool.

Old OG'er here, I miss those days, too.

You're welcome to play on the politics and war forum www.overgrow.com long as it lasts.

[Eloriel]

9. Thanks, I'll take a look n./t

[ultrafoil]

17. one of my favs from back in the day.

http://www.overgrow.com/edge/showthread.php?s=95182f2972d15f4fd96e6ef88df25d16&threadid=87564

Been a while.

"Sigh".

[Catch22Dem]

6. Eloriel

It's one of those things. Shortly after the selection, we came here to share in our disgust of Bush and look for ways to deal with everyday freeper types. Now the race is on and we all have candidates we're supporting and we're trying to advance the cause of said candidates. It's a different type of board. Since I don't see DU going anywhere, I think it's safe to say we're going to see this for many years to come. Election time brings out all kinds of attitudes and opinions.

I think a lot of the heavy hitters are still around, but we're over 35K now, so it doesn't take long for threads to get buried or hijacked. I expect it to be a different board once the primaries are over. I also expect it to be different again once the general election is held.

[Shakespeare]

10. Exactly. DU is not static.

As much as some of us would like it to maintain a certain personality all the time, it simply won't. It has a life of its own, and will go in directions that one person or one group of people simply can't control.

If I could make DU be the way it was in May 2001, I'd do it. But I can't, and it won't ever be that way again, and you just have to accept that.

Where I may miss certain things about "the way it used to be," there are just as many things about the way it is now that I like, too.

[VolcanoJen]

19. Excellent post, Catch22.

DU has definitely evolved from those early days (and I'm one of the earliest DUers out there, FWIW)... but I think the change is exciting, and good, and will serve our shared causes well.

The more, the merrier... at least DU remains a place for thoughtful debate among Liberals, Democrats and Progressives of all stripes, exclusively.

It's our first primary season together, and we've got some kinks to work out. I think that the spirit of intelligent debate is alive and well at DU, and I think it grows exponentially each time a liberal-leaning newbie joins our thoughtful discussion, personally.

on edit: clarity, and typos, and stuff.

[realFedUp]

69. It is a good thing that some forums move slowly

and threads remain in place a lot longer...
GD just isn't going to be a place to post
really serious research longterm.

Maybe a forum just marked Research would
be good...

I don't like the candidate bashing in here...
hard to tell real Dems from disrupters anymore
but it's something we have to live with for
the most part through the election. I'm willing
to live with it to have the voice.

[WilliamPitt]

8. sigh

[Selwynn]

11. So what happened?

[Karmadillo]

15. Gresham's Law

[Jim Sagle]

12. Posts ain't what they used to be.

In fact, most of 'em ain't nuthin' but shit. ;)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Actually, those great conversations have been polarized by

people talking PAST one another in candidate flame wars.

But to be fair, this is ALSO what DU used to look like and there are still many thoughtful conversations on the board...one has to pull themselves away from the more tempting fare.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=5&forum=DCForumID35&archive=yes

[Eloriel]

21. The only difference is that now they're more stealthful

as a rule, tho not always.

Hell, NOW we've got a whole passel of 'em that ought to have been weeded out from the get-go. Some now have post numbers in the thousands.

Eloriel

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

24. I hear ya E

;-)

[Pastiche423]

27. The passel

is why I feel more like a stranger everyday.

The primary has a little to do w/it, but not much.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

45. Yeah but part of that is that there has been a wedge driven through us

in the primaries.

Heck you and I used to exchange friendly notes but now I feel if I am not firmly in the Dean camp (which I am not although I will support him if he gets the nod and will work my ass off) then some of my old time DU buddies can't be bothered with me.

[blm]

67. Yes...and I recall those who stated they would vote Green party

if their candidate wasn't the nominee. I think that exacerbated alot of the acrimony.

[LittleApple81]

14. I have been here only since July and I have noticed a change too.

and I miss the heavy hitters.

[Zomby Woof]

16. it wasn't all peaches and cream

Nostalgia has a way of washing away the ugliness. Those Green/Dem flame wars were barnburners. Then the ideological correctness ones - are you centrist/liberal/socialist/DLC lackey, etc. There was lots more (I lurked from the very early days, so I remember), but also fewer people, so the metabolism was different.

But no, there were no "glory days". That's just gauzy nostalgia coming from long-time membership and an unwarranted sense of "ownership" of the nature of DU. Time is elastic, and after all, this too shall pass.

[Le Taz Hot]

20. I'm sure you're right to some extent, Zomby,

but I seem to recall many more well thought-out and researched threads. Those now constitute maybe 1% with 99% being utter idiocy. The ratio was much better in the "good ole days."

[Zomby Woof]

23. hey...

I have done my share of complaining about the idiocy (when not contributing my obligatory bit of it), and GD has always been home to a fairly large slice of lunacy and shoutfests.

Almost everyone who has posted in this thread, no matter whether they agree with the premise of the original post or not, has contributed heavy, deep, well-researched posts, and their fair share of time-wasting hoo-ha. Speaking of wastes of time, wringing our hands about how things aren't what they used to be falls in that category.

If a person wants to elevate discourse, they need to lead by example. Stop with the tiresome hand-wringing and navel-gazing and do something about it.

Otherwise, the inverse proportion of a thread's worth with its longevity and reply count is a constant in here. :-)

Exceptions abound, of course.

[wtmusic]

25. 'the inverse proportion of a thread's worth with its longevity and

reply count'--good observation, except maybe the thread length factors in there somewhere too.

[Zomby Woof]

29. I thought reply count was length

I mean, if it has 347 posts, and it is about whether Dean hasn't taken his suit to the cleaners since the Carter administration, then that is what I meant. :-)

FWIW, not even a non-Dean person like me gives a goddamn about his clothes. Criminy, I have some integrity. (Some)

[Le Taz Hot]

34. My Dear Mr. Woof

I've led by example countless times, only to watch it die within 10 minutes. I suppose it reflects the general stupidity so prevalent in these here United States. I'd like to blame it on the effects of a dumbed-down education system but too many of these people are my age, received an excellent education and have no excuse.

I may bitch about it every now and then but I'm far too busy running for office, running our local Dem. Party Office, organizing fundraisers, trying to find a suitable Democratic candidate for the 19th CD and registering enough Democrats before the March primaries to make a difference to spend much time with hand wringing.

Now, you know the drill. B-) ;-)

[Zomby Woof]

36. the difference is...

I quit caring about my threads that die quick deaths. I have fun with the 4 or 5 people who reply. I was happy that 2 threads of mine did well last night, almost 40 apiece, lol, but half of the replies were mine in the discussion.

So I am happy when they do well, and indifferent when they don't. If I put a lot of work into it, I shamelessly bump it just to annoy the Clean (Clark/Dean) Spammers.

One was about must-win states on the electoral map, and the other on the Dept of Peace.

Be sure to secure the cow vote there in Fresno. Cows are people too!

[Le Taz Hot]

41. My Dear Mr. Woof

It's not chickens. It's cows. And a few sheep. And lots of raisins but they're overwhelmingly Republican so the Democrats have moved to the stone fruit where we should see a better turnout on election day. B-)

[Zomby Woof]

42. I said cows!

Chickens? What's all this talk about chickens? I had an uncle who thought he was a chicken once. My aunt would have divorced him, but she needed the eggs. :evilgrin:

[sistersofmercy]

109. Hey

what amazingly fair logic you possess. When I first started posting here you had left for some reason and a group Duers would post threads about you, how much they missed you, now that you are back I understand perfectly the reason for their sentiment. I like all your threads by the way, I read more than I respond to because sometimes I feel I have nothing constructive to offer to the discourse. Anyway, I'm glad you are back, eventhough I did not know you before.

[Le Taz Hot]

18. Compare and contrast

the threads you list and this pablum which has become the norm at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=805311

Nothing is so disheartening as spending days researching a topic, carefully crafting a position, posting the results, then watching it die within 5 minutes due to the onlaught of threads such as the above. I gave up trying a long time ago.

I find my ignore list has over 60 people in it where there was never a need before -- not that I agreed with each and every DUer, quite the contrary, but we could debate an issue, in depth, for days, in the truest sense of the word and never once read "your candidate is a poo-poo ca-ca head."

I suppose it was inevitable as DU has grown tremendously in the last couple of years. The Administrators have tightened the rules, posted many threads pleading for self policing, all to no avail. Still, it makes me sad to see what DU was and still could be if we could all just act like grown-ups. However, it appears that the inmates have, indeed, taken over the assylum.

[Eloriel]

22. Yeah, that thread

was particularly, um, illustrative, wasn't it?

Eloriel

[Lorien]

28. The same has happened at Smirking Chimp

people seem to be reacting to threads and posts with one liners, rather than reading them and then answering with a thoughtful reply. It could be caused by the primaries, the increase in membership, an increase in trolls, or perhaps the general tone of dialog throughout America today. Just look at the evening news; dumbed down for generation W*, topics are never discussed in depth outside of "Bill Moyers NOW" (watched by far too few progressives). The media really has been parroting dubyaspeak, which is then passed on to the rest of our complacent population. I think the change in tone reflects society at large and not just DU. :shrug:

[Old and In the Way]

62. Seems like that's a function of popularity.

I came here when there were maybe 11,000 or so members. That gross numbers have tripled, so we have at least 3X more post volume that drives. Nature of the beast I guess.

One way to counteract this trend would be for the mods to have a "Best of DU" forum where well developed threads could be added. Maybe even a "Hall of Fame" for extremely well developed posts/threads that could showcase the talents of many of the posters here.

[FrenchieCat]

31. Everything must change....

nothing stays the same.......

dadada dada dadada dada....

Even some grow old....
Even some grow cold....

it's just the way it, is....

don't rearrange...but everything must change.

[JNelson6563]

65. a fitting tribute

to your DU career. ;-)

Julie

[CatWoman]

75. what I don't understand

is the "My-Candidate-Is-Better-Than-Your-Candidate" threads, and their variations.

Boggles the mind.

Who(whom?)ever gets the nomination, I plan to back 200%.

Bush must be removed -- by any means necessary.

[Mike Niendorff]

26. <nostalgic sigh>

Yep.

But at least now, if I want to find out the latest talking points for/against Primary Candidate X, I know that I can find any of them in the blink of an eye just by checking out, well, pretty much any thread posted in the past 5 minutes or so. :eyes:


MDN

[Forkboy]

30. The biggest difference I see on DU

is the extent that right-wing views are allowed in some forums.And not just posting from right-wing sources but actual praising of right-wing sources.

[Zomby Woof]

32. there ya go

When I see the idea of PEACE being ridiculed as 'kooky' by 'liberals', I may just sign on to Eloriel's thesis yet, or yours.

[Forkboy]

35. go visit I/P

where you can see people happy about peace protestors getting shot,people who think Danial Pipes is a renowned scholar and people who think Arabs have their own smell.It makes one all warm and fuzzy inside!

[Zomby Woof]

38. you just reminded me

...why I stay the hell out of there. People complain about GD a lot (even me), but we're a fun fuzzy playground of balloons and mirth in here, lol.

[Forkboy]

39. exactly

GD is just like Romper Room....I/P is more like the movie Romper Stomper :)

[edzontar]

87. Forkboy is correct..I/P is now a right vs. left forum

With many, many posters who have over 1000 posts but always support conservative positions and attack liberals and Democrats.

Their latest targets have been Jimmy Carter and the Geneva Accords, and their latest champions....I kid you not...are the Italian neofascist leaders, Giancarlo Fini and Alessandra Mussolini.

If you think it used to be bad before, stop by sometime---but brace yourself for a visit to the Twilight Zone (wingut division).

[Pastiche423]

37. It is that very thing

that upsets me the most.

I don't know where I belong. It truly hurts to hear the view of many issues I've always held dear, ridiculed.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rumguy]

44. Ah..bitter sarcasm, but it is funny

cheers my friend

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. Uh Huh

Anyway, most of these links were my threads, which is not why I'm posting them.

No, not at all.

:eyes:

I've been here for as long as most old-timers. The vitriol has always been here. The good threads have always been here, and still are; David Zephyr and Will posted two great ones just last week, about Clark and Dean, respectively.

They're just mixed in with a bunch of more prominent crap now, so that you have to hunt to find them. The candidate wars are a large part of it. No camp is innocent, and few old-timers are innocent, certainly not the great majority of people posting in this thread.

People feel strongly about their candidates. I'm sure things will calm down once we've decided upon a candidate. Some people will stay, some people will go, but things will probably continue chugging along exactly as they have been: vitriolic, good and bad.

From my perspective, most old-timers who hector and lecture people about the "good old days" are just complaining about the perceived loss of status, privilege and entitlement that they felt from when DU was just a small community. They feel threatened, and they aren't shy about saying so, or worse, inventing other ostensible reasons for why the influx of newcomers is a bad thing.

It's just like the music purists who whine when the general public starts to enjoy "their" special, little-known band. Inevitably, the music purists soon begin complaining that the band has "sold out" to the mainstream. And I see many parallels to that behavior here, too.

DTH

[Forkboy]

46. arrrrrggggghhhh

It's just like the music purists who whine when the general public starts to enjoy "their" special, little-known band. Inevitably, the music purists soon begin complaining that the band has "sold out" to the mainstream. And I see many parallels to that behavior here, too.

but Metallica's Black album WAS a sellout :evilgrin:

[Zomby Woof]

48. and everything after that

REALLY blew chunks!

[Forkboy]

49. I'd like the new one

if there was no vocals :shrug: As much of a prick as Sars Ulrich can be the man is a phenomenal drummer.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

50. Damn Hijackers!

You two newbies are ALL OF WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE NEW DU!!1!11!!!!

DTH

[Forkboy]

51. oooops.....sorry

:D

[DoveTurnedHawk]

55. But Seriously, Let's Get Back to Metallica

Have you ever seen them live? I wanted to a long time ago, but never got around to it. Not so sure I want to, now.

;-)

DTH

[Forkboy]

57. I saw them in '84

at a club opening for (take this ZW) Slayer.At the time they were freaking amazing.

I wouldn't go see them now.$75 too stand half a mile away? No thanks :)

[Zomby Woof]

60. damn you

Damn thing is, I was 17 back then, so it was CONCEIVABLE I could have seen that.

Although I lived in Freeperland back then, and "Satanic" music never came to where we were. :evilgrin:

[Zomby Woof]

53. it's my job dammit!!!

I am part of the Unholy Triad of threadjackers known as M.A.T.C.O.M.! :D

Forkboy is an honorary M.A.T.C.O.M.'er tonight! :thumbsup:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. DAMN, You Guys'll Take ANYONE!

:evilgrin:

DTH

[Forkboy]

58. Hey,I resemble that remark!!!

:)

[Zomby Woof]

59. only the lowest standards!

We won't be undersold!

[Zomby Woof]

52. I've stuck by Slayer myself

Never sold out, been around just as long, and an even better drummer (although Lars is good, no doubt).

[Forkboy]

54. I have read that Lombardo will be on the new one

I have no idea if it's out already or not,but that is the news.

[JNelson6563]

64. I disagree DTH

I've never had status here and I see a amssive difference. GD didn't use to be monopolized by flame wars. It is now. Lot of taunting and smearing.

I was once impressed on a regular basis. Now I am reminded of FR more often than not. I still recommend LBN forum to folks but rarely because want them to wander into GD and become disgusted. Civil and mature dialogue are good things. To see them become so rare here at DU is a thing worth mourning IMO.

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

80. My Point Is That It's a Natural Outgrowth of the Primary Season

No camp is innocent. It's not just new posters, it's old-timers too, and so IMO it's completely unseemly to blame the vitriol on either new posters or the growth of DU.

I will be honest. I despise threads like these, not only for their tone, but also for the wrong-headed message they send. The solution to adopting a more civil tone is a broad-based, community-wide effort to do so, not self-congratulatory lectures by old-timers.

DTH

[nyrnyr1994]

47. I have a thought

Maybe it's irrelevant, but maybe it's time to re-organize the forums?

Here is the current format:
LBN
GD Forum
DU Lounge
Editorials
Activism/Events
Politics/Campaigns
Media
Bush & Conserv.
Meeting Room

Issues (I/P, etc.)

Site Info (Ask The Admin.)

Now I don't know about anyone else, but I don't always see the difference btw DU Lounge & GD at times. How about adding another forum for well crafted serious debates? Call it the "Think Tank", propose an idea/thought/theory/argument and let it grow from there. I'd love to see the input and brainstorming from everyone on DU from some ideas i have. (Not that posts like this don't exist, but to have one designated area for them would be interesting).

But then again, it is 3 am and I could be just rambling...

[John Paul]

61. Gee, I admire you..

You were there back in those CRAZY days, huh? You used to set the pace?

[Ksec]

63. Well Im glad to be part of the dumbing down at DU

All those egghead posts...Jeebus.

I think those are still here. I could point out lots of smart posts. I believe that stuff was always better back in the old day. Ask anyone.

[Jacobin]

66. GD has been invaded by

astroturfers doing the bidding of Rove. Spreading idiotic and silly repuke talking points under the guise of "discussing" dem candidates.

There is really no other explanation for the mass disruption and sillines that now pervades this board.

It's sad and its run off some of the best discussions and participants.

[Zomby Woof]

76. do you have evidence?

That itself is a silly assertion. One of my favorite paranoid theories are the Rove Boogeymen! :D "Rove pays people to come here and disrupt!" :eyes: and :D

Please, provide evidence that goes beyond your emotions or mere suspicions.

[bpilgrim]

81. even rush talks about DU

but you don't need direct evidence to come to that conclusion - it is done in science all the time - but i would say THEY - not necessarily one person ie rove - would be fools not to not only read DU but to interact here for a variety of reasons... test out their args, influence opinion, etc.

never before has gov had the ability to not only MANUFACTURE CONSENT but read peoples thoughts.

it is certainly within the realm of reason and not deserving of ridicule at all, imho, maybe some see agents everywhere, but when you think about it who can blame them and they may be right especially when you consider the fact that they CAN and DO employ computers to record data from the unsuspecting, shoot i do it at work all the time, recording, organizing, and serving up data...

shoot, the more you think about it the more you realize KR or any other communications man would be a FOOL to ignore another valuable dataStream feeding into his existing data wharehouse :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

[Zomby Woof]

90. just the kind of paranoia

That will earn more ridicule from those hosers in talk radio. All I can say is, Rove isn't getting his money's worth, because thr trolls are illiterate and one-dimensional. Truly, if there were paid disruptors, they should be better than wwhat we get.

No evidence, and you offered "realms" and supposition. Bleh.

[bpilgrim]

99. i know your mind is made up

but you asked for proof that the opposition is here and i gave it to you.

look at it from a marketing perspective... they are here, common sense should tell you that.

anyways...

the real point is to how to get a better signal-to-noise ratio - and less debate on the way we were or whos to blame - and i believe the best way to do that is to have EVERYBODY rate any post they read.

simple, practicle, fair and better than what we got today.

:hi:

peace

[9215]

77. EXACTAMENTE

I was just going to say this. They have flooded this website with BS topics to clutter things up.

[Logansquare]

68. The Dem primary is the primary culprit

I've seen *long-time* posters who always seemed to be rational and kind turn into raving paranoics over their candidates. As of last week, I decided to not read any postings either for or against any of the Democratic candidates. The added bonus being that I spend less time on the internet.

[youngred]

70. to get to the old DU

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=lobby

try that link, and log in that should get you access to your old bookmarks

[Terwilliger]

71. DU has always been this way

now we're more people and more stressed

Don't worry. I'm sure it will get better before the election :freak:

[Zomby Woof]

78. woofie!!!

:D

[bpilgrim]

91. i agree

and you know what they say about opinions ;->

now yall know why i been suggesting the mod-filter - everyone rates a post (like yahoo/slash) - since day 1 ;->
(well, day 1 for me)

peace

[Kanary]

72. Those at the top

Obviously, the originators of this forum think that all the discord and lack of intelligent debate is just fine, or it wouldn't continue. The powers that be have allowed all those reasoned threads to be shouted down, so there is every reason to believe that they must enjoy it, also.

There are clearly a large number of long-time posters who are still around, and still have the ability for eeasoned discourse. Has there been any attempt to bring these people together, and chat with the admins, and try to reclaim the forums? Has there been any move to come together and form an intelligent alternative? From all the threads I've seen on this, there are obviously a lot of people who strongly desire something different. Is there any interest in developing that desire?

However, I doubt that what I have asked will receive a response, even though I've not seen these questions asked before, or any real conversation about alternatives. I'll either be ignored, or get flamed. That's part of the problem, too.

In the meantime, people leave, and the real work the Dems needs to do gets hobbled.

Kanary

[Le Taz Hot]

74. I can understand the

Administrators trying to keep DU open to all points of view -- even the idiotic ones. But that's just it, isn't it? What seems idiotic to me may be high discourse to someone else.

I've posted this same diatrab until I'm blue but I'm going to do it one more time. The level of discourse on DU (orlack thereof) is up to us. I think most of us can recognize flamebait when we see it. I think most of us can recognize threads/posts that have been given little thought and are basically knee jerk commentary.

WE have some options here. There is the ignore feature for those notorious DUers who fit into one or both of the above categories. If you're uncomfortable with "ignore," just don't respond. Responding keeps the inane posts kicked up ad nauseum while the well thought-out ones sink to page 3 in 15 minutes or less. Conversely, when you see a thread in which the author has obviously spent a great deal of time and effort writing, give it a kick. Even if you don't have anything to add, just kick it.

Truly, the Mods and Admins shouldn't HAVE to police us. I would hope that we are adult enough to be able to do that for ourselves.

[Kanary]

83. Excuse me?

Since you seem to be directing this to me...

*I* haven't responded to flames.

*I* haven't started flames.

*I* *have* supported others, and tried to help keep more interesting posts up front. Do you see that happening?

I stand by what I said.

Kanary

[KoKo]

82. To be fair to the Admins, they have responded by revising rules several

times. The most recent was in response to folks complaining about the "language and flame bait" in Subject lines in GD Forum.

Sometimes it's a battle between those of us who want more "order" and those who like "freestyle, combativeness." Rules or No Rules. What is the balance?

There may be other ways like giving awards for posts of merit that might help ratchet up the level of posts somewhat. However, many people like the combative style in GD where there is "instant" reaction to one's post even if the reaction is a "sarcastic one-liner." That's why the Forum, imho, still has so many posts. You get "maximum coverage" for your thoughts, as trivial, trashy or as pithy and intelligent as they might be. Instant gratification, if you will.

I like the idea of Awards thought. Maybe Skinner, et al would think about it sometime in the future.

[Kanary]

86. Actually, it would be quite simple

There is already a forum, as I see it, for "Politics and Candidates". Why aren't those wrangling "my candidate can beat up your candidate" posts moved over there?

It would be quite easy for there to be a safe, sane place to actually converse. Apparently, that is not what is wanted, at both the top levels and those who are speaking here.

So, some will stay and either watch or participate in the degradation, and others will leave.

It's kinda the same as our current issue with the Dems.... we get what we are willing to settle for.

Kanary

[fishnfla]

73. So your point is that DU really sucks now?

gee I wish I would've known that before I signed on, wasted all this time and sent money. My bad.

I think what you are really saying is the opinions of the old-timers are the only ones that matter. I've seen this prejudicial sentiment in so many degrees around here. I think it sucks.

Maybe, just maybe, the old-timers are part of the problem. I mean the big guns ran away for a reason, right? Most of 'em left before the way DU is today, I presume. So just who ran 'em off?

[Stephanie]

79. The difference now is that our focus USED to be on BUSH

GD used to be where we educated each other and gathered info to fight back against the BFEE. Now we are using GD to bash each other's candidates.

I wish we could add a new folder called "The Primaries" and move all the Dean/Kerry/Clark threads over there. Candidate bashing doesn't look good on DU, hurts our cause, and leaves little room for the real work that needs to be done, educating each other about the criminal BFEE and getting the word out. Our coverage of certain issues here at DU has led, in some cases, to the mainstream press being forced to cover the issues we care about. We can actually make a difference here through careful research, thoughtful posting, and sheer repetition.

Thanks for posting my threads, Elorial. But those are just recaps of the originals. The original PNAC threads, posted by many different posters such as grasswire and Will Pitt, were fascinating, lively discussions with many contributors.

[T Roosevelt]

84. You're most welcome

I went looking for your thread on conspiracies, and came across so many others that I would love to see revised/renewed that I brought them over.

It's amazing reading through this thread and realizing that my original posting of these was a microcosm of the problem. I posted twice in GD, and BOTH dropped like a rock. Finally I posted the links in the Meeting Room just so they would stick around a little while.

Would love to see a Research forum, and a Primaries forum (both mentioned here) to have 1) a good place for informative threads, and 2) to filter out the candidate-bashing crap that pollutes GD.

[Terran]

85. Your post insults those of good will who have recently joined.

Eloriel, you basically just stated that nobody who hasn't been here a long time has two neurons to rub together--that's there's no "audience" for serious discussion here. That's both mean-spiritied and completely inaccurate. I see plenty of old-timers engaging in the candidate backstabbing and pointless arguing, while there are lots of thoughtful newcomers. Things haven't changed, in other words; we're just not the small and cohesive group we once were.

To me, you sound like the aging revolutionary who longs for the days of skulking in the woods with like-minded comrades, when now that revolutionary is forced to deal with the 'masses' of people who basically offer support but don't see everything your way. Yeah, that's not as romantic as the 'old days,' but it's what you've got now. If things aren't to your liking, it's unseemly to blame the newcomers. Blame your own anecdotal perception of things.

[Avalux]

88. Eloriel -

Most of the time I don't post responses to your threads, but I am tired of your whining. This is yet another topic you've started clearly meant to cause a rift among DUers. Your intentions are apparent whether it's a post to bash another candidate other than your own or discredit "newbies".

If this place doesn't live up to your standards anymore go somewhere else.

[edzontar]

89. He has a point....

nt

[HoosierClarkie]

92. Why not contribute to doing things the "way things were" instead of this..

http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=805805&mesg_id=805988&page=

I do not forget attitudes. Especially when they are discriminatory.
I say practice what you preach Eloriel!

[Kanary]

93. "If this place doesn't live up to your standards anymore go somewhere else

You're right, and that's what a lot of us did/will do.

So, the next time you're "whining" about people not voting, and people not getting invovled in elections, and people not thinking and talking about the "big issues", remember what you said here. Because, that's a big part of WHY people just aren't participating much anymore.... they get shouted down, ignored, and criticised.

You've certainly taken the wind out of *my* sails, and my enthusiasm for support for the Dems along with it.

Kanary

[KoKo]

94. Tired of whining? Then put posters on "ignore." One person's whining is

another person's point of view about their honest observations. I think
your use of whining to describe the orginal poster is way out of line.

[Avalux]

95. Hi KoKo01

Just the sort of comment I'd expect from you. Yeah, I'm way out of line. :eyes:

[Malva Zebrina]

97. I also lurked for a while,

, and I remember reading horrible fights over Nader and the green party. Raw, brutal attacks and it went on and on and on. Stopped for a while, then resumed and on and on ad nauseum. I also remember the brutal sparring over the Israel-Palestine question, and as a result,causing a special slot to be assigned for the discussion of ONLY IP just to try to control the raging vitriol. Much of this from old timers who were initiates on DU and who now still convey a sense of "ownership"

There was also quite a bit of base, gutter mouthed profanity coming, not solely from the new uninitiated, plain speaking, friendly , relatively, politically unastute and unaware disdained members, but from the old, established, gentry who seemed to wallow in it. It hurt my eyes, at times. That was just after Bush couped the process-already almost three years ago-not much different than what goes on here today, as far as I can tell. The language does seem to have gotten better though.

Some people have more ability to access information and have a wide networking and can post speedily here with new information--some have more time than others--some are just observers, readers not writers, and some are just plain folk wanting innocently to share something of themself on that day. :shrug: The diversity of all different types of people and their different views is at times is fascinating to me. Why should anything else be demanded ?

I will agree that some of the older members, older in membership, not in age, do convey, and deliberately it seems, a sense of "ownership" because they have been here since DU was started. imo, that fact should not give anyone a sense of priviledge or of entitlement in any way. A pecking order established on length of membership, feels and looks a little unhealthy at times . It leads to clickish,, adolescent , prejudicial sensibilities and behavior, imo. It is also hurtful to others when in full motion and on a roll. That is one area where newbies to the threads own the high ground, imo.

[HoosierClarkie]

100. Thank you for your insight and encouragement. n/t

[Cocoa]

96. muich less dogmatic now

It seems now when people post their opinion, it's their opinion, in the past there used to be a DU party line articulated by the heavy hitters. Sometimes a heavy hitter would weigh in on a heated topic, and that decided the mattter.

Much more healthy now, imo. Except that the discussions of the primary campaign has way too much trash talking.

[BevHarris]

98. All I know is I haven't gone a day without visiting DU since March

Old behaviorists' point of view: Watch what we do, not what we talk about. Observing my own behavior, it didn't matter what the rules, or who's on the board, or what the discussion topics, or whether I was welcome at the moment or not.

I seem compelled to visit every day. I appreciate this place, and it provided me with company during some very solitary and scary times.

So whatever.

Bev Harris
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[sistersofmercy]

105. Thank you, Bev!

For a welcoming voice of reason absent of elitism. All on this board contribute with differing opinions, no matter how big or small the effort.

[blm]

106. What took you so long?

I posted your site here in early fall 2002.

;))))

[DemExpat]

101. I find DU's evolution very exciting.

And learned a long time ago that embracing change is the major key to peace of mind and some happiness in this crazy world.

DemEx

[FlaGranny]

102. A little story

I once lived in the country where some new homes were being built. One family built their nice new home next to a family pig farm. Then the family decided they did not like the pig farm being next door. They started a crusade against the pig farm family to make them give up their farm. Old members of the small country community were not amused by the new family, not at all. New family lost - due to zoning and also the prior domain of the pig family. True story. What it has to do with this thread, I have no idea, but the thread reminded me of the story so I thought I'd share.

Second true story. Another new family, fresh from the city, moved to their new house. They decided they wanted a pet horse. They knew nothing about horses, but they got one anyway. They fed the horse table scraps. The horse became very thin and sick. This story probably has more to do with this thread than the first one.

The fact is, though, many more of these "new" people moved to that small country community. The close, tight-knit country community no longer exists. It has become a "suburb." The people who helped build that community and their families - well, they are now in the minority and have very little voice in it. The community their parents and grandparents built no longer exists. Sad.

[HoosierClarkie]

103. Here's a true "big" story...

I usually tell this to my republican friends that ask me why I am a democrat...never thought I would be telling it here.

I live in Indiana and I have 15 year old boy neighbor and he never knew his father. He likes to come over to my house and play with my husband and my three children. He is a great kid, but doensn't have friends his age to play with. Except one. He is new and is from the "city". I asked Jared, my neighbor, why he did not play with him. Jared said,"Well he just does bad stuff". I said what kind of "stuff"
"Well he's from...and he and his brother have different fathers and I do not know anyone like that", Jared said. The moral of this story:
Jared is missing an opportunity to get to know someone because he is different than what he knows. Jared would not be so lonely if he accepted people for who they are. I learned something from the new kid. We are a party of inclusion not exclusion. I can't believe I have to remind people of that.

[sistersofmercy]

104. And this thread has "an incredible amount of research and analysis" to

support your assertion? Ever so slightly hypocritical with the elitist condescension?

[fishnfla]

107. The irony is more than palpable

Just how much thought and research goes into a topic that complains about forum content? Never heard that one before! Dressed up an old saw and called it macaroni, she did.

I wonder: if I started a thread like this, it would be locked before 10 replies and shuttled to ask the admin.

Even further wonder: what is the purpose? Thought control? Self-aggrandizement? Fomentation of internicine conflict?

[EarlG]

108. You just won't let this rest will you, Eloriel

Couple things folks. What Eloriel is referring to as the good old days of DU is an illusion.

I guess most of you don't remember the "Counter-Productive Infighting Forum" that we had for a couple of weeks back in 2001. For those of you who don't know, we got so sick of the Green/Dem threads, of which there were many - yes, almost as many as there are candidate threads today - that we created the Counter-Productive Infighting Forum, in which we dumped all the lame-ass Green/Dem threads. The point was to try and shame those who were posting flamewar threads by relegating their threads to a dungeon and slapping the label "Counter-Productive" on it.

Did it work? Ha ha! No, on the contrary, the flame-warriors and Green/Dem partisans merely look it as a signal that we were legitimizing their threads by giving them a special forum to fight in! And before long the level of discourse was at an all-time low. Oh yes, and bear in mind that this was before we had personal attack rules. I'm sure you can imagine what it was like...

So that was the Green/Dem infighting. Then there was, of course, the I/P infighting - which we did manage to succesfully place within its own forum, but only under an EXTREMELY tight set of rules, and only because it's an issue that a minority of people on DU care passionately about. More recently we've had the Gore/Not Gore infighting - remember that? Before Gore announced that he wasn't running? It wasn't that long ago. The board was full of flamewar threads about whether he should run or not, and the partisanship was just as bad as it is now with the candidate infighting.

Then you've got to bear in mind that on the old DU message board there was no record of deleted posts. If a mod pulled a post - poof! - it simply disappeared without trace. So when you look back at the old archives and find all these threads with no sign of trouble, bear in mind that those threads could have had fifty posts pulled from them and you'd never know. Incidentally, I don't believe that proportionally we delete any more posts now that we did two years ago.

Also, let's not forget Skinner's recent survey of deleted posts which conclusively proved that the majority of deleted messages on this board are posted by members with more than 1000 posts. Many of whom have been around since the old days.

As for the "heavy hitters" who have "long gone" - believe it or not, a lot of them are still here. And do you REALLY expect everybody who registers at this site to stick with it forever? I mean, come on, are you honestly surprised that over a two and a half year period, people haven't just drifted away of their own accord, for whatever reason?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there was never a "golden age" on this message board, merely fewer people. When there are fewer people, there are fewer people to post messages that you don't agree with, and you have more time to read everything. When there are more people, threads move quickly, great numbers of posts are generated, and you will see a LOT more that you disagree with.

But I think it's pretty insulting to the members who have joined up since Eloriel's golden age of DU to moan that DU used to be a beacon of intelligent thought and enlightened progressive discourse, and now it's full of riff-raff Rove operatives (here's a clue: it's not).

The problem with DU has always been, and always will be, that people simply don't treat each other with enough respect. We can create more and more and more rules until you have to say please and thankyou sir every time you post, but I have a feeling that most people would object to that. In fact, some people already think that there are way too many rules. Ta da! Difference of opinion. You can't beat it.

Anyway, my final point is this: if someone tells you that DU used to be this wonderful, enlightened, thought-provoking place before it got all filled up with horrible people, that's their opinion. Feel free to respect their opinion, but my advice would be to take it with a grain of salt. Because this place is as combative, raw, and downright nasty as it always has been.

I mean, come on people. This is primary season. We can't just bury our heads in the sand here. You think if we hide all the candidate infighting threads in a dungeon forum then the candidates themselves will stop attacking one another?

The only way we're going to get through this without a few bloody noses is if everyone stops looking at respect as somebody else's problem and starts spreading it around a little. Unfortunately the chances of that happening are slim to none, but it doesn't mean we can't try. Because I hate to say it, but chances are that this is going to get worse before it gets better.