Why isn't Dean electable?

[Darth_Ole]

People have been particularly rough on Dean tonight. Mainly, a lot of the Dean bashers are insecure with him and think he'll get clobbered by Chimpy.

But why? Because he's from a small state? (Clinton was from a small state.) Because he's a liberal? (He actually has some conservative leanings. e.g. the budget and gun rights.) Is it because he has no foreign policy experience? (Neither did Clinton, Reagan, or Jimmy Carter.)

Dean is the front runner now. Period. Kerry, Gephardt, Clark, and the rest are just desperate. They're pulling out all the golden oldies like "He'll take us back to the days of McGovern and Mondale."

Dean is leading the way in the fight against Bush. He IS electable, folks.

[tinrobot]

1. The real question...

...is why do we keep going down this road?

Calling the other candidates 'desperate' is just trolling for another flamewar. This election should be about ousting chimpy, not bashing each other. Jeeez...

[dsc]

7. and calling Dean unelectable

is thoughtful discource?

[tinrobot]

14. Discourse...

The word is discourse...

...and no, it is not thoughtful discourse to call him unelectable, either.

[dsc]

45. Sorry I can't spell

and they don't have spell check. It was so nice of you to try and shame me over it. I am sure your candidate, whomever it is, is proud.

[joeybee12]

2. Against my better judgement, I will post to this, and agree with everythin

you said.

My better judgement tells me to stay out of the GD tongith--it's a no-win situation, as usual.

[xultar]

3. Cuz he aint got these...

General Wesley Clark was the most decorated soldier since Eisenhower.

Wesley Clark was Knighted by Great Britain for his work with NATO and the Balkans, one of only 11 foreign nationals so recognized.

Wesley Clark was Knighted by the Netherlands.

Wesley Clark received the French "Legion d'Honneur for his service.

Wesley Clark received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Clinton after Kosovo (this is the United States' highest civilian honor).

Purple Heart

Master's Degree in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from Oxford University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar.

[joeybee12]

4. Then according to your reasoning, no one is electable except Clark

Not one of the other nine?

[xultar]

12. I didn't say that I just posted the facts. My post had nothing to do with

the other 7 candidates(Clark not included).

[Eloriel]

15. According to Clark, he's the ONLY one who's even qualified

So -- who cares what you think? :evilgrin:


(See: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/30/le.00.html )

Eloriel

[Patriot_Spear]

6. You're right, Clark will make a hell of a VP for Dean...

:evilgrin:

Couldn't resist... (pppssstttt, by the way- Dean is also different from Clark in one very big way; Dean has actually WON an election before...)

[xultar]

18. So did GWB!!!! teee heee heee hahahahahaha!

[Patriot_Spear]

21. Not likely, pal- my President lives in Tennessee!

As John Kerry would say, "Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean...!"

[xultar]

26. WAKE UP! It's over...There is a new situation here? So if winning

a govenors race qualifies Dean then it goes to reason that it qualified GWB and lookie where we are today.

In a Shit hole. Enough with the Govenors already. I'd take a senator (not lieberman) over a Govenor.

[Zynx]

29. Senators are notoriously bad presidents for the most part.

Look at the lowest tier of presidents. It is filled with senators and congressmen. Governors rarely rank badly.

[Patriot_Spear]

32. It'll NEVER be over for me- Never. Never. Never. Never...

Bush* f*cking stole the White House-I WILL NEVER GET OVER IT!

[xultar]

49. I don't understand your respnse...Explain a lil more..n/t

[retyred]

43. Yeah! Vermont, the waffle topping state

How appropriate.


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[arewethereyet]

10. that would seem to qualify him for sec. defence

or perhaps expert commentator on cable when a war is going on. Unfortunately a general who got fired for his military descisions and who can't seem to avoid couching things in military terms is no Ike.

Clark is even less electable than Dean IMO.

[Patriot_Spear]

13. You're right too...

A lot of people on here are right- tonight.

[xultar]

23. He wanted to send troops to RAWANDA 100,000+ people Died

OH, I forgot no one cares about AFRICANS! Only Cubans, Albanians, Israel, and Arab oil.

He wanted to send Troops to RAWANDA that was the conflict between him SHELTON,COHEN not to mention the bombing campaign that saved THOUSANDS.

So don't give me that CRAP about got fired.

:nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr: :nuke: :grr:

It takes a lot to get me PISSED and you have CONGRATULATIONS!

[frustrated_lefty]

40. Wow.

A whole post where you don't convey your thoughts with a summary "tee hee."

[xultar]

53. tee hee hee n/t

[dajabr]

5. You need a good dose of FEAR in you Darth...

Then you'll know only a millitary man can be our savior.

[joeybee12]

8. I'm sorry, but if you;re serious, that comment is downright frightening

[dajabr]

31. Dead serious, joeybee...

Fortunately for me, Fear does not drive my decision making process. I'm more angry than fearful (kinda like my candidate).

edit to indicate that I'm not talking to myself :-)

[HoosierClarkie]

9. Honestly...

he doesn't appeal to the range of voters that Clark does. With him not meeting with students before Hardball, I wonder if that will affect his 1/4 voters under 30!

[Eloriel]

25. Let's see, who was it he later revealed he was talking to

during that 4-1/2 hours? That questioner, btw, looked positively sheepish after Dean's response to him, including, "But I'll be glad to come back."

Dean told him 1/4 of his contributors are people under 30. An awful lot of them are brand new voters. I don't think Dean is going to have ANY problem continuing to connect with young voters and old voters and voters in between, not to mention Republicans, Independents, Greens, etc. Clark most certainly doesn't have Dean beat on the "range" of voters that he attracts. Just the type: which I'll edit out and leave unspoken for now.

Eloriel

[HoosierClarkie]

30. "which I'll edit out and leave unspoken for now." Go ahead. Speak.

I do not see any independents or republicans flocking to him. I am a brand new voter! I am also 26. hmm hmm

[xultar]

33. And most are RETHUGLICANS who gave $$$ to Dean

Here ya go

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_6309.shtml

Take a look at KKKARL @ the Dean parade this summer!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A10541-2003Jul4¬Found=true

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I10712-2003Jul04L

http://paleblue.us/archives/000392.html

Dean Anti War...not quite
http://www.antiwar.com/gancarski/gan071103.html

[arewethereyet]

11. its not his ideas, its him

the guy is not presidential IMO

[Bombtrack]

16. Dean's been effectivly unelectable from the get-go

He's not just from a small state, he's from a state of 600,000 that is argaubly the most stereotypically left-wing in the country.
He's like Dukakis in that respect, a typical New England lib-democrat governor strongly associated with an unpopular social issue(Duk-death penalty, Dean-civil unions)

Like Mondale he's would raise middle class taxes, and like McGovern, the electorate disagrees with his anti-war forign policy(60/40 after the bloodiest month since the war began)

The issue he throws out for him being electable is his NRA cred, which relies on gun-nuts coming out for doctor dean, and conflicts with the fact that gun-control is an issue the dem party has majority support for, like abortion.

[Zynx]

28. And John Edwards is? LOL.

That's a good one.

[Bombtrack]

38. very electable

.

[arewethereyet]

54. based on that logic I'd have to roll my eyes too

but there is nothin much wrong with his ideas its the man himself. He's just a ego-driven hothead who in any other context we would not care for.

Edwards has charisma, a well thought out platform with national level experience.

Face it, you can't afford to have Dean mouthing objections when some head of state speaking next to him says something he doesn't like.

He's not presidential. Not at all. Edwards on the other hand, is.

[gulliver]

17. If this were 2000, Dean would be electable.

But this election is going to be about national security and confronting a brazen, belligerent asshole. This time we need someone who can deliver the national security issue to Democrats or Bush is just going to continue to push our faces into the mud and laugh about it.

[Bombtrack]

20. and middle class taxes

.

[xultar]

24. YUP I'd vote for Dean over Gore! So I'm not UNFAIR just realistic

about what our country needs. Maybe he and Hillary can run in 2012.

[MIMStigator]

27. Bingo. This election will be about 9/11

our nominee has to have foreign policy experience

[Forkboy]

41. No it wont

no one I know ever even talks about it,be they liberal or conservative.What they do talk about,and often,is their empty wallets and purses.

It will be an issue,but not the main one.

[TopesJunkie]

19. He is.

It's just that we've allowed our inner party debate to be thrust down a road that the Bushies want it to be thrust down, rather than having us simply discuss and figure out who is the best among our best. We are defeating ourselves with this kind of junk. You know full well that GHWB is wishing he had pulled this line out on Clinton in the fall of 1991. That's how goofy it is that we are actually discussing this.

[HuckleB]

65. You said it.

We've got to stop playing into the hands of the real opposition.

[Khephra]

22. Because some people think history repeats

and they're convinced they see Dean in the past.

Which amazes me as they never explain the basis for a Bush winning a second term with that same eye to the past, if history is repeating.

[pinto]

34. a Dem is electable

You get, what 270 electoral votes?, you get elected. It is doable. After the primaries, if we pull together behind the candidate, it is doable. Eyes on the prize.

[Zomby Woof]

35. no bullshit analogies here

I just think he is a vote for the status quo, and that his cult sees him as a messiah. The truth probably lies closer to status quo I think.

But no, I am not a "basher" (which is a juvenile term for dismissing those who don't kiss his ass), and I don't see him as a Goldwater/McGovern/Mondale/Dukakis. He is Dean, and that is damning enough.

I don't like his economic conservatism, his position on healthcare, his NRA kowtowing, his proposals for education reform, or his lack of a vision for Iraq/ME post-Bush. Generalities about "treating them with respect" are just fluff and bullshit. He will inherit the terror fallout from this misadventure, a GOP congress again, and all sorts of economic misfortune at home. He will not be effective in dealing with job bleeding overseas or the complexities of immigration reform.

A Dean administration would be such a dismal failure, that the Repubs will win the WH for the next 20 years.

No insecurity here. I know how I feel about that prevaricating waffling sonofabitch. No Dean in '04.

[ochazuke]

36. He doesn't appeal to voters loosely tied to Bush

He doesn't appeal to rural voters in any area of the country outside of New England. Al Gore lost his rural appeal while being Vice President, and Dean wouldn't have the advantages Gore had.

If Iraq isn't a total mess in Summer '04, Dean's main message is worthless -- a liability even.

[DrFunkenstein]

37. Tax Hikes, No FP Experience, VT Pop., Gay Marriage, Anger, Flip Flops...

I could go on and on, but I'll leave you with a visual. Just keep in ming that the GOP has TONS of footage showing Dean acting like a nutball. Watch this video for a fairly toothless, but illuminating preview of the general election:

http://www.gop.org/Newsroom/RNCResearch/TLvideo2.htm

<>

<>

<>

Ok, the last one's just plain freaky!

[Scott Lee]

55. Welcome to the MEME-STREAM!

Never fails. *chuckle*.

[xultar]

39. MAKE UP YOUR OWN MINDS...FOLLOW THE LINKS!

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/article_6309.shtml

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A10541-2003Jul4¬Found=true

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I10712-2003Jul04L

http://paleblue.us/archives/000392.html

http://www.antiwar.com/gancarski/gan071103.html

[Carolina]

46. OMG

I knew my Dean aversion was due more to Bush fear, as in fear of four more frigging years. But those links are the nails in the coffin. The GOP is gunning for Dean, they want him to be the nominee and they are setting us up for the kill!

Clark-Edwards 2004

[Design8edGrouch]

42. There is only one real reason

He was governor of a state that allows legal same sex unions. The so-called Christian right will crucify him.

[xultar]

48. Now This I LOVE about DEAN! He is President Material but not now

when this shit is cleared up that bush had his paws in with Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, North Korea, etc. Then Dean can have it and I'm sure he'll do a great job as President one day. I'll even vote for him. But, now, the world is to jacked up and our relations internationally call for someone with a lot more experience in that area.

Clark.

[Romberry]

44. He is the only one who is electable

People that think otherwise need to take a gander at the Iowa Electronic Markets. In Bush vs. Dem scenarios, Dean is trading at more than 30 cents. None of the so-called "electable" candidates is bringing more than a dime.

DU has become a destructive place. Skinner should shut it down.

[Egnever]

51. Agreed

We are eating our own at an icredible rate here

[mmonk]

47. The country hasn't been normal

since 9/11. Normally I would say yes. Under today's circumstances, I don't know.

[Silverhair]

50. Can you say 9-11?

It really happened. It wasn't a Hollywood production. America, (Spelled with a c, not a k)was really attacked by some foreign guys. Joe & Jane Average are very angry and scared too. More angry than scared. That is their primary concern.

The war. Most DUers don't understand Joe & Jane when it comes to the war in Iraq. Most of us view it throught the lens of Vietnam, but there is one HUGE difference. We were not attacked in Vietnam. Here we were attacked. Granted, Saddam, was not caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but to Joe & Jane, that really doesn't matter. He is one of the usual suspects and they view it as time to clean up the town.

Joe & Jane see it in more black and white terms. They especially don't like the way many of us have started using terms like, "Heroic iraqi resistance", and seem to be hoping for an American military defeat. The language of Dean's supporters will be used against him.

Secondary issues. Dean is associated with gay civil unions, and a lot of middle America still doesn't feel comfortable with it.

He has promised to repeal the tax cuts. That means that taxes will go up. Mondale - 84.

Gun control - Doesn't help him at all. The Reps own this issue, but it may hurt him with some Democrats.

Dean does indeed have the base very excited, just the way McGovern did, (I remember it well.) but he doesn't understand Joe & Jane. He is combining the worst of McGovern (Weak internationaly) & of Mondale (Tax hikes).

There is only one candidate who could possibly beat Bush in 04 and that is Clark.

[rumguy]

57. I agree that some of these Deanites

are out of touch with electoral reality...not saying that Dean can't win...it's just that some of the arguments that the Deanites are making are NOT winning arguments...I guarantee you that if Dean wins the nom he'll be a different candidate then....

[xultar]

59. That's what I've been saying all along...

Dean will win the nomination and then move to the right closer to center (where he's always been) and piss off his core supporters

Dean will win the nomination and stay left (where his supporters think he is) and lose to shrub.

Either way it is a lose/lose situation...or win/win...depends on where you stand.

I will change my siggy line to I TOLD YOU SO! Oh Deanies u really have to wake up!

[Silverhair]

70. The problem with moving to the right is he then leaves himself

wide open to charges that he has no real positions, and will say/do whatever it takes to be elected. The reps will run ads asking who the real Dean is.

[FrenchieCat]

52. I find your statement incorrect...

I find that Deanies have gotten even more aggressive and more arrogant than ever, especially tonight...

DEAN WILL BE NOMINATED, GET USED TO IT THREAD...

WHY I AM UNEASY ABOUT CLARK

WHY DEAN IS ELECTABLE

CLARK IS A SCARY BOOGEYMAN....ABOUT 6 OR 7 OF THOSE....

Dean supporters are having to assert his manhood in order to gain confidence.

They are starting to see a grey cloud.....it's called panic.

[quaker bill]

56. From all the anti-Dean venom here

I must assume he did well on Hardball. I guess I will go tune it in.

[slinkerwink]

61. lol, the trolls were really out there on the dean blog

it really shows their insecurities, doesn't it? ;-)

[quinnox]

58. Dean is the Titanic

It started out with great promise and fanfare, but ended up a disaster of epic scope.

Despite the "Dean is inevitable" propaganda being circulated, the race is in fact wide open.

Any of the top six candidates has a shot at winning, and let's hope for the sake of defeating Bush next year that Dean isn't the nominee.

[Forkboy]

63. definately time for some new material

[FrenchieCat]

60. Because,

not enough people will vote for him to win.....Duh!

[slinkerwink]

62. *whine* *whine*

My, my, my, this glass of cotes du rhone is great tonight. Have any more *whine* coming? ;-)

[Forkboy]

64. why Frenchie?

how do you know this,and how do you know that enough will vote for Clark?

[slinkerwink]

66. the truth is that frenchie doesn't really know

but I can say with more certainty that Dean will be getting a lot of votes during the primaries than I can say for Clark in IA. Ooops, he withrew from that, didn't he?

[dfong63]

67. he has too many supporters

he's raised too much money. his campaign manager is too good. he's too high in the polls.

yep, COMPLETELY unelectable. :eyes:

[AP]

68. Speaking for myself

People have been particularly rough on Dean tonight. Mainly, a lot ... think he'll get clobbered by Chimpy.

Exactly right.

But why? Because he's from a small state? (Clinton was from a small state.)

He's from a very small state that's very heterogenous in terms of race and class, and it's not exactly a crucible where a lot of the important issues are played out. Arkansas is, like, 6 times bigger, and it is a state in which race and class, and lots of interesting political debates (including issues relating to finance, thanks to Stephens Inc, WalMart, Tyson, and the Rockefellers) have played out. It's a way better crucible than VT, I think, and I'm more confident that a president who came out of Ark a good liberal has a sense of what America needs. There's also this notion that Dean carpetbagged off to VT because he wanted to be a big fish in a small pond. Clinton was from Arkansas and had Arkansas in his blood.

Because he's a liberal? (He actually has some conservative leanings. e.g. the budget and gun rights.)

He's the worst of all possibilities. He's a fiscal conservative who comes off as a liberal thanks to a few policies that will seriously antagonize the religious right into getting out the vote. So, either he's going to get slaughtered by Bush after being portrayed as too liberal, or he's going to win and he'll be a disaster. Incidentally, if you compare Dean to, say, Clinton on the budget, Clinton is way more liberal. Dean basically wants to balance the budget on the backs of the middle class, and he's not so interested in a progressive tax code.

Is it because he has no foreign policy experience? (Neither did Clinton, Reagan, or Jimmy Carter.)

If foreign policy experience were so important, than the only person qualified to be president would be a former secretary of state, and I don't know when the last time that happened was. What matters is that the person has a good set of policies guided by an overarching political philosopy which is liberal and makes sense. I don't see that in Dean.

Dean is the front runner now. Period. Kerry, Gephardt, Clark, and the rest are just desperate. They're pulling out all the golden oldies like "He'll take us back to the days of McGovern and Mondale."

He isn't leading in SC. And it'll be interesting to see if he holds his lead in IA and NH, and where he'll go after that. And just because they're calling Dean a McGovern when they're behind doesn't mean Dean isn't a McGovern. McGovern won the primaries too.

Dean is leading the way in the fight against Bush. He IS electable, folks.

He may be leading the way in the fight against Bush. However, God forbid Dean gets nominated and then Bush drops out to be baseball commissioner. What matters right now is who puts up the best vision of America that can beat all comers. I don't think it's Dean. Or if it is, he hasn't proved that part of his message yet.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

69. Two Simple Yet Undeniable Facts

1) He is not from the South (and worse yet, the next corollary is the fact that he's from a stereotypically liberal New England state).

2) He has no foreign policy experience.

These are the pink elephants in the room, IMO.

Yes, it SHOULDN'T matter that Dean isn't from the South. But the unfair reality is that it makes him less electable, and it makes the electoral math much more difficult.

Yes, in other times, it WOULDN'T matter that Dean has no foreign policy experience. Unfortunately, we are still involved in a fight against terrorism, and Bush got us into a mess in Iraq that some Democrat will have to fix. And all of that requires foreign policy experience. Which the Republicans will definitely be telling us Dean doesn't have if he's the nominee. They'll tell us that for the entire election, using all of the blare and glare that $200 MM can buy.

You asked the question; I answered by giving my honest opinion. I've given this opinion before on a few occasions, yet I've never seen one single rebuttal that I've found even remotely persuasive.

I am NOT saying Dean is unelectable. I am just saying he is less electable than Clark and Edwards (and Edwards has some issues on point number 2 above as well, IMO). Dean can win, conceivably. The electoral math is just much harder to accomplish.

DTH

[killbotfactory]

71. Because the repubs will try to smear him

But they'll leave everyone else alone.

Or something.

Democrats aren't supposed to fight back. It's uncouth. We should be in a perpetual state of fear at all times and always try to minimize risk by running boring and predictable candidates.

The american public is too stupid to examine the issues and vote on substance.