Are we better off if we pull out and leave Iraq today?

[Phatfish]

Did Bush go into war prematurely? Were the initial reasons for war misleading and arguably false? Are our brave men and women dying almost every day in a foreign land? These questions have been debated here in DU but I want to ask another question; should we pull out and leave Iraq right now?

I know there are quite a few of you guys out there that would answer that question with a "Hell Yes!" However, I don't think it is that simple. Our military is in a bad situation and we need to do the best to protect them yet if we leave the mess the way it is, who will clean it up? This is not for me to babble about. I just want to hear what some of you guys think during this late night.

[MrSoundAndVision]

1. Well

You just sit there and wonder about the complexities of this invasion while the children of the nations poor die for your indecision! Not that simple, well you're not god fellow, you don't define simplicity... These people deserve real freedom, not ABCNews version of it, real Jeffersonian freedom. I don't know how the supporters of the Nazi's felt after their government was disassembled in the international community, but I'm sure it is similar to how those of you who feel that we can make this war legal and principled will feel once the US war is internationally and domestically condemned. Hopefully that will be before we enter Iran and not after. There is no compromising with these imperialists.

[MrSoundAndVision]

2. What is the mess...

is it self-governance in such a way that Alla is involved, in such a way that we will not understand at all as a Western nation.

I don't understand Democrats that say there is some good way to deal with this invasion other than to denounce it as imperialistic. What kind of party do these people want? A party which does whatever is necessary to justify going to war, including the power vacuum argument? Well the power vacuum argument is bunk. People rule themselves, whether government admits so or not. People die because of American indecision everyday.

[Phatfish]

5. well

someone sounds a bit snippy tonight. I apologize for not being around to debate with you and your views. Yes, you can denounce the war as imperialistic and spout ideals until your body can give no more. I am not arguing your views about the war itself, I just wanted to focus on the here and now. The blood being shed, the lives being lost, the caskets coming home. This is a horrible position for the soldiers over there and the family back here. Yet, if we leave, are we not saying to the world, "Yes, we made created a debacle, but is the cost of fixing it is too high for us. We will pack up camp and let the chips fall where they may." People may rule themselves but those same people can also be very fragile and be tempted and coerced into a path malicious for themselves and their neighbors.

[MrSoundAndVision]

3. Good night

and thanks for the forum, join US at http://www.kucinich.us and we can do more than just request conversation, we can work together.

[xJlM]

4. And leave all that oil?

Not to mention all the money to be made for our campaign contributors. Iraq can also be the base for our next military conquest with the oil-rich nations of the world.

Bush will not possibly be out of office for over a year, so I think the chances of American forces leaving Iraq anytime soon is in the slim-to-none category.

[TexasMexican]

6. Probably not.

I think it would definately confirm to those that hate us that we are indeed pussies who cant stand casualties.

That being said we definately need to do something different.

If we were to pull out now Iraq would probably end up like Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out.

Having the Taliban and other misc terrorist in some out of the way place like Afghanistan wasnt all that bad for us until they finally decided to attack us. However having all those fundamentalists and terrorists in a centrally located (for the middle east) place like Iraq would be quite a problem for thier neighbors.

Maybe we should just give the kurds thier own nation and let the neighboring nations carve up Iraq. Didnt the brits artficially make it up back in the begining of this century anyways.

[dreissig]

7. It's the Right Thing To Do

We don't belong in Iraq. It's a sovereign nation that we should not have invaded in the first place, and we have no legitimate interest in staying there. The invasion and its aftermath cannot be separated.

We didn't belong in Vietnam either. Nixon had the chance to blame the failure on the Democrats but refused to do it. Instead he fought on for another 4 years at a cost of 26,000 additional American lives, and some uncertain but very high number of Vietnamese lives.

We will leave Iraq eventually. There is nothing good to be accomplished by continuing our illegitimate occupation of that country.

[Phatfish]

8. see I have a problem there...

It is difficult to charge that a nation's sovereignty can "cover up" such horrendous acts against its own people. Should we have just stood by and done nothing but scorn and eliminate trade against the Nazis if they decided not to invade Eastern Europe and just eliminate the Jews that resided in Germany. I don't have an answer but I feel it is hasty to quickly answer one way or the other.

I do disagree about the fact that nothing good can possibly come out of this mess. I feel, with luck and the right approach (though definitely not the approach of our current administration), we can help Iraq become a fertile democratic state of some sort.

[bobbyboucher]

10. We rushed to war

for political reasons. The whole Iraq War Resolution thing was just a Rove distraction for the 2002 elections. Without it, there might have been some reasonable discourse about our nation before the election, not just a "national security" debate with everyone trying to prove how tough they were. It was all part of the plan.

Now we are paying the price. There are too many places in the world where Democracy should be imposed to claim that we are on some sort of high road. It is all a farce and we are no better off. Probably much worse.

[dreissig]

12. You Supported The Invasion

Based on Bush propaganda, you think the invasion was justified. I remember hearing the same stuff about the Viet Cong. We were morally obligated to defeat the Communists because of the terrible things they were doing to their own people, etc., etc.

I don't think the invasion was justified. I don't think the ongoing occupation is justified either. The sooner we leave, the better. Let's not drag this thing out for years like Nixon did.

[rman]

19. but these "horrendous acts" are not the real reason for this war

nor were the WMD's or the alledged (and now denied) 9/11-Saddam connection. So none of these lies can be good enough reason to stay.

I figured this is common knowledge on DU.

I think i'd be wise for the US to retreat from Iraq asap. There is plenty repairing to be done but i don't think the Iraqies would appriciate it if the US does these repairs. If only because it'd be impossible to explain to the Iraqies that the former occupier is now the truly real rebuilder.

[bobbyboucher]

9. I think we are screwed regardless.

If we leave too soon, the whole place could become more fundamental than Iran or anywhere. Or Saddam could crawl out from under a rock and it could all be for naught.

I just don't see any good coming from it. We might have to be there forever and that ain't good.

Does anyone have any positive closure to this mess? I'd sure like to hear it, and hope for it.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Americans, the Iraqis, and the entire world would be better off if we left

Fraction of Iraq costs could feed world poor-WFP

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L19676871.htm

BRUSSELS, Nov 19 (Reuters) - A fraction of the cost of the Iraq war would be enough to feed the world's poor and help boost peace and security, the head of the United Nations food agency said on Wednesday.

"We look at tens of billions being spent today in Iraq, the conflict... (With) even a small percentage of the commitment that the world has made to Iraq, you could feed every hungry child in the world," James Morris, executive director of the World Food Programme (WFP), told a news conference.

He said people who were hungry and "at their wit's end" were more susceptible to the message of people wishing to harm the world.

"The message of those who would do the world harm does not resonate as well with people who are not hungry as it does with those at their wits' end," he said.

more

[screembloodymurder]

13. No, first I think we need to apologize

and then we need to send our war criminals over there to be held for trial.

[radfringe]

14. can't pull out now

Invading was wrong - especially since the justification was based on lies

Unfortunately, Saddam is still out there, and if Baghdad-Bush goes after Saddam the way he went after Bin-Laden - then Saddam has nothing to fear

Baghdad-Bush is supposedly going to speed things up in Iraq...just in time for the 2004 sElections. As far as I can tell from news sources - there still is no REAL plan on how to do it, it's being dealt with via "crisis management" and slapping duct tape on problems

You only have to look at Afghanistan to see what will happen. karzai is essentially just the mayor of Kabul - the rest of the country is controlled by warlords, factions or growing pockets of the taliban and al-qaeda

In Iraq - a pre-mature withdrawal could result in civil war between the ethnic/religious groups and a very real possibility that Saddam will return to power. It will make a bad situation worse not for the Iraqi people but also it will be seen as a victory by terrorists - i.e. they kicked our butt out of Iraq

Everything that went on and is going on in Iraq is politically motivated to get Baghdad-Bush re-Selected.

[soothsayer]

15. Yes, pull out and let NATO troops do the nation building

They won't be attacked because they are not the evil force that bombed and killed everyone and then occupied the joint. They'll be seen as helpers.

We would do this, except the greedy BFEE is trying to rape Iraq and get all their blood money, so we can't leave yet.

[dbt]

16. We can pull out now or we can pull out later.

Our troops will be just as dead either way. And, just like the First Viet Nam, they will have died for NOTHING.

Fuck bu$h! Deeply, severely and several times.

x(
dbt

[wildwww2]

17. Yes. But it will not happen soon enough if at all. We will never win peace

I could type for hours on the reasons that they will never stabalize anything in Bahgdad except for Bu$h Inc. propaganda. But that would be a waste of time. There is no doubt in my military mind that Iraq is a losing of military lives situation. (And civilian too). That cannot be won and has been built on huge piles of lies. Thank goodness Clinton did not do such stupid stuff as his court appointed replacement has done. And he did do some stupid stuff. Look at all the power the FCC has for one example.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[TexasPatriot]

18. well, there's a cynical answer

which is, of course we'd be better off - because there'd be a massive civil war, lots of people all blowing each other up - focusing their hatreds on each other rather than the US... and tiny little citystate countries emerging that we can control with big money oil contracts.

I'm going to just follow Juan Cole's lead on this one. Without the logistical underpinnings to support the government of occupation, anything we do there is pretty screwed.