Hinkley release attempt a quid-pro-quo?

[9215]

The man who tried to assassinate President Reagan is trying to persuade a federal judge to allow him to visit his parents without being accompanied by staff from the psychiatric hospital where he has lived for more than two decades.

John Hinckley Jr. has asked U.S. District Judge Paul L. Friedman to let him leave unescorted from St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington and travel three hours away to the Williamsburg, Va., area to see his parents 10 times. Five of the trips would be overnight visits.

Friedman scheduled a hearing for Monday.

Hinckley, 48, has been a patient at St. Elizabeths since his acquittal by reason of insanity in the shooting of Reagan and three others outside a Washington hotel in March 1981. Hinckley said he shot the president to impress actress Jodie Foster.

<http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/27/national/main570411.shtml>



Hinkley family closely associated with Bushies



http://www.geocities.com/prohibition_us/dui.html
.......The two families lived close to each other. They knew each other socially and financially. When the Hinkley oil company started to fail in the sixties, Bush's Zapata Oil financially bailed out Hinkley's company. It went from being Vanderbilt Oil to Vanderbilt Energy or Vanderbilt Resources in the 60s after Bush intervened. The Hinkleys had been running an operation with six dead wells but then they were making several million dollars a year after the Bush bailout. .....


Was the Reagan hit a quid-pro-quo for past favors?




Hinkley linked to Oswald, Poppy Hinkley contributed to Bush's campaign


Hinkley and Bushies: http://www.spitfirelist.com/f244.html

FTR-244 Trouble on Oiled Waters, Part V - Line of Succession (Restoring Dignity to the Office of the Presidency) (Two 30-minute segments) (Sources are noted in parentheses)
1. Throughout the campaigning of 2000, the Republicans have stated that they (George W. Bush) should be elected, in order to “restore dignity to the office of the Presidency.” (This, presumably, in reference to the scandals of the Clinton Administration. The role of the George H.W. Bush faction of the intelligence community in the creation of these scandals is discussed in numerous broadcasts, including FTR #'s 174, 182, 186 , as well as L-8.)
2. This broadcast underscores the role of the elder Bush, people associated with his administration, and other key Republican politicians (past and present) in the murder (or attempted murder) of past Presidents. In particular, the program focuses on what might be called ‘“vice” Presidents’”--Republicans who either held, or ran for, the office of Vice-President and participated in what might be viewed as the ultimate “vice” of someone in that position. These “vice” Presidents either murdered, or attempted to murder, the chief executive of the United States.
3. The broadcast begins with discussion of the predominance of Bush administration figures serving as principal advisors to George W. (The New York Times, 7/21/2000, p. A19.)
4. In that context, it is not unfair to assess “Dubya” in the context of his father's actions, particularly since the Republicans have attempted to tar Al Gore with Clinton's indiscretions. The first half of the program consists largely of a long excerpt from Miscellaneous Archive Show M-20 (George Bush and the Shooting of Ronald Reagan.) Recorded on 7/10/88, M-20 sets forth analysis of a strong body of circumstantial evidence linking the elder Bush to the shooting of Ronald Reagan. (M-20 was recorded during the course of “Campaign '88.” At the time Reagan was shot, former Director of Central Intelligence Bush was Vice-President.)
5. John Hinckley was a former member of the National Socialist Party of America. (San Francisco Examiner, 3/31/81.)
6. He was expelled for being so violent that his fellow Nazis suspected him of being a government agent. (Idem.)
7. In October of 1980, Hinckley had been arrested at the Nashville (Tennessee) airport as then President Jimmy Carter was due to arrive. (Idem.)
8. At the time, he had a .38 caliber pistol and two .22 caliber handguns in his possession, along with 50 rounds of ammunition. (Idem.)
9. Interestingly, this former resident of Dallas, Texas, had purchased the weapons at Rocky's Pawn Shop, on the very street on which President Kennedy had been assassinated. (Idem.) One wonders to what extent some of these “coincidences” were intended to send a message. The Nazi party to which Hinckley belonged had been founded by George Lincoln Rockwell, whose Arlington (Virginia) name and address were in Lee Harvey Oswald's address book at the time of his (Oswald’s) arrest. (For more on the Oswald - Rockwell-JFK assassination connection, see also: G-4, RFA-13, Miscellaneous Archive Show M-20, Lecture L-3, and FTR-188.)
10. Hinckley had attended a memorial march to commemorate Rockwell. (San Francisco Chronicle, 4/1/81.)
11. The broadcast sets forth evidence that Hinckley's father, John Hinckley Sr., had been a significant contributor to George Bush's primary campaign (when Bush Sr. was challenging Ronald Reagan for the nomination.) (Idem.)
12. The night after the shooting, John Jr.'s brother, Scott Hinckley, was scheduled to have dinner with Neil Bush (George W.'s brother and, like “Dubya” and George Sr, a petroleum industry professional.) (San Francisco Chronicle, 4/1/81.)
13. Scott was, at the time, an executive with the Hinckley family's independent oil company, Vanderbilt Energy. (San Jose Mercury, 4/1/81, p. 24A, San Francisco Chronicle, 4/1/81.)........more........

[Minstrel Boy]

1. interesting details here on the Reagan attempt:

From an interview with John Judge:

In watching the footage, you can see a Secret Service agent at the outer edge of the crew. There's a group that have sort of tackled Hinkley and they're taking him in and you can see the gun is on the ground. Hinkley's 38 is on the ground at the edge of the that crowd near the retaining wall. The Secret Service agent kind of sidles over to the wall, takes a handkerchief out of his pocket, kneels down, like crouches, and lifts the gun up and puts it in his pocket.

...

This cop comes over, off of his motorcycle, spreads his arms and kind of moves back and forth in front of -- at the edge of the crowd. He's not serving any purpose but he's there and after a moment the camera pans back and you can see at his feet, this 22, as if he's dropped it. One of his hands goes in towards the center of his coat and then comes out and right after that, as the camera is panning all around, it pans right between his feet, and you can see this 22 that becomes the official weapon.

...

Reagan's wound is so minimal that it doesn't match either a 22 or a 38. It is described as a little thin razor line when they finally get his clothes off. They think he's having a heart attack -- actually his lung had collapsed because of the thing penetrating him. Then finally a nurse sees a little line of blood underneath his left arm pit. She determines that something has gone in but it's a little razor cut. They know what a bullet hole looks there in the emergency room at G.W.U.. They get them all the time.

They do poke around until they finally find this thing in the x-ray. They try three times to get it out and finally pull it out and it is a little disc, a flattened disc, that was described as `thin as a dime' and `razor-edged.' This fits the profile of these aerodynamic discs that are used by the intelligence agencies in weapons that the Church Committee showed during the time that they did their testimony. They are fired with a CO2 (carbon dioxide) cartridge, so they are relatively silent. They just make a little puff. They have an accuracy up to a great length. They can be fired out of a regular gun or even out of these little tubes with the CO2 cartridge at the back. They also can be loaded with toxins.

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/112600.html

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JackRiddler]

3. Dude, if you were at least funny...

Can you answer one question?

Why do you call yourself mobuto? A reference to the dictator, or something else entirely?

[Old and In the Way]

4. Our resident cynic got himself an early release.

Odd that he only seemed to show up to debunk/insult legitimate questions about all of the "coincidences" that plague the Bush family.

[mobuto]

5. I'm not a cynic

Actually, quite the opposite.

I'd say the real cynics are those people who think that everything is a lie, a grand conspiracy, that people are out to get them and are hiding behind the scenes to control the world. Not only are they cynics, not only are they typically mentally unsound, but they're also egomaniacs. The truth is that people of power and influence don't give a flying fish about what they think or what they think.

I really have no clue why my post was removed - how is it any different than any of these other crackpot theories. And for some reason, the good moderator neglected to extend me the courtesy of explaining his or her reasoning.

And as for me always sticking up for the Bushes, I think that reflects more on the direction of the conspiracy theories generated on this forum. If Clinton-is-a-serial-killer crap were allowed here, you can bet your pants I'd be just as contemptuous of that.

[Old and In the Way]

27. Hey, you were raised from the dead!

I checked your profile and saw a tombstone, so I assumed that you were Baxterized.

Difference between Bush and Clinton, of course, is pretty straightforward. The Republicans spent 8 years and $70MM of taxpayer money trying to bring down the last popularly elected President. If there had been any murders or other nefarious deeds done by Clinton, I'm pretty sure that those guardians of public sensibilities would have tried Bill and built the gallows in front of the Capitol for a proper public hanging. But, gee, we've yet to get either Bush under oath....so neither you nor I can really know for sure just what deeds either may be accountable for.

But I'm all for electing Democrat majorities in the House and Senate and conducting real investigations into everything that has gone on in this country since, say, 1963 (heck, I'll even scrutinize that evil rabbit wacker, Jimmy Carter, and take another look at Bill). I think that's the only way we are ever going to get this past us so we can get on with the nation's business (rather than the exclusive interests of corporate oil).

[mobuto]

30. Yeah.

I don't know what the mods are doing. Moderator deleted my post for some reason. I've asked why (I didn't violate any rules far as I can tell) and I have yet to receive a response. Bizarre.

Difference between Bush and Clinton, of course, is pretty straightforward.

You know that wasn't my point. If you're comparing the Clinton and Bush presidencies, well there is no comparison. The only things I'm comparing are the bizarre - and in many ways analagous - conspiracy theories disseminated by each side's respective lunatic fringe. You go up to any liberal Democrat in the House or Senate and you start spewing these theories - and I've seen people do this on more than a few occaisions - and the poor Member of Congress will cringe in visible pain. Not because they're any less liberal than you or me, but because they recognize that this kind of thing is pure poppy-cock.

[Old and In the Way]

32. That's not why they cringe.

"because they recognize that this kind of thing is pure poppy-cock."

That's not the reason at all. It's because they are powerless to do an investigation because they don't have committee control (Republicans do). And Republicans are not going to invesigate the Bush family becasue they are all, to a greater or lesser degree, co-conspirators to the crimes. Or maybe they aren't too keen in receiving Anthrax in the mail.....look at the Democratic leadership that's been lost from bullets and unfortunate plane accidents...if nothing else, it's served to mute the Democrat's zeal into asking too many questions, cuz they also know they are all mortal too.

You can choose to dismiss this as poppycock....and you will help to maintain the criminals in their positions of power. But in the past few years, I've become a lot more skeptical about our recent American history and how it's been to the distinct benefit of one American family, in particular.

Sadly, by not questioning this family and the Party leadership that has sold it's soul to keep it's power, we may never have a truly free election again.....we'll see if the masses can vote in enough numbers to offset the BBV and disenfranchisment of hugh numbers of Americans.

[9215]

36. Bingo! Investigations

are not commenced because those interested in justice are powerless to do anything. The loss of so many powerful Democrats has also had absolute effect on the power of the Democratic Party. I'm sure Ted Kennedy thinks about the danger he is in, simply for being a Kennedy, every day and his family as well. Can you imagine watching your brothers getting killed then your brothers boy. Horrendous.

[mobuto]

37. Oh Bullshit

It's because they are powerless to do an investigation because they don't have committee control

Democrats controlled the committees from Mr. Hinckley's assasination attempt in April of 1981 to January of 1995. That's nearly 14 years by my math.

If there were any reason at all for anybody to suspect the Vice President had attempted to kill the President, every Tom, Dick and Harry in Washington would have gone berserk - it would have been the single greatest political scandal in the history of the United States.

No, Democrats of all shapes and sizes groan when they hear this bullshit for the simple fact that it is so obviously bullshit.

look at the Democratic leadership that's been lost from bullets and unfortunate plane accidents

Yeah, like John Tower, John Heinz and George Mickelson? How is this crap any different than the list of "coincidentally" dead people who were supposedly associated with Bill Clinton that somehow "proved" that he killed them.

Sadly, by not questioning this family and the Party leadership that has sold it's soul to keep it's power, we may never have a truly free election again.....

Well damnit, why don't you go and hide under your bed and whimper. The rest of us actually do believe in the Democratic Party and in the candidates it represents, and we intend to send a message next year. To adopt a familiar turn, you're either with us or you're against us.

[Sterling]

40. Rocking the boat is not popular

in DC. To assume otherwise shows a serious lack of intelligence. That is assuming anything you submit as personal experience is true, which I will not stipulate to.

[mobuto]

44. Rocking the boat is one thing

Ignoring the attempted murder of the President of the United States by his Vice President is a whole other friggin ball game.

Don't be ridiculous. If there were even the slightest indication that Bush was responsible, there would have been hell to pay. But there isn't.

[stickdog]

46. Reality intrudes on your tidy cognitive consonance.

If there were any reason at all for anybody to suspect the Vice President had attempted to kill the President, every Tom, Dick and Harry in Washington would have gone berserk - it would have been the single greatest political scandal in the history of the United States.

But there are PLENTY or reasons to suspect Bush -- starting with the first rule of crime solving: who benefits? Add in the Bush/Hinckley family connections, the threatened 2 million dollar DOE fine against Vanderbilt Energy, the pro-Bush donations made by the Hinckley family, the fact that the relatively sane Hinckley got off on an almost-never successful insanity plea, the fact that all Bush/Hinckley connections were hushed up in popular media (even though these connections -- in and of themselves -- make for a GREAT story) and the fact that no crime investigation ever lifted a finger to explore these connections -- and you've got a pretty damn suspicious series of "coincidences", regardless of whether or not this event was actually a conspiracy.

Please feel free to direct me to the investigation that concluded that the Bush family's connections to the Hinckley family were no more than disinformaton combined with bizarre coincidences -- because I don't seem to recall any of this stuff even being widely reported, much less investigated.

[Old and In the Way]

50. In "81, I had never heard of the BFEE....why would I expect

Democrats to consider this? It's not like this is an isolated instance here Mobuto....if you look at all the crappy things that have gone on in this society since 63, I see the fingerprints of Bush connected to just about everything. So I supposed this could be one long 41 year string of coincidences or, more likely, an organization so powerful that it has successfully managed to subvert justice. Hey, when you can stuff a public investigation on why 3000 people died 9/11/01, how hard is it to intimadate a few Democrats?

Sorry, the fact that the Bush family continues to avoid justice does not, in itself, presume innocence. All I ask for is the same $70MM, a partisan independent prosecutor, a compliant media, and 8 years....then we can compare notes and see if there was anything there to warrent the investment.

[mobuto]

51. So you want another Ken Starr?

Well, I'm sorry, I don't buy into stupid fishing expeditions, regardless of which Party is sponsoring it.

Democrats found plenty of evidence in the 1980s that Bush was behind Iran-Contra and yet they did screw that mess up.

But this is different. This and all the other conspiracy theories are non-scandals that you're hoping will turn into scandals if you only let enough money go after them. Well, that dog don't hunt. And if I'm going to have any principles at all, I have to say so. Because it was wrong when the Republicans did it to Bill Clinton, and it'd be wrong if Democrats ever did that to anybody.

[Old and In the Way]

52. "Don't you?"

"Democrats found plenty of evidence in the 1980s that Bush was behind Iran-Contra and yet they did screw that mess up." So you agree he belongs in jail for subverting the law of the US Government...that's a start. I'll settle for jail time on these crimes.

You don't get it...if a Democrat is elected, the agenda will be sabotauged and deraiiled by the Republicans...unless we can get control of Congress, investigate, and get the truth out about the roal screwing we've had under Republican mismanagement since 1980.

Of course your dog won't hunt....you feed him that rich Republican dogfood.

[mobuto]

53. Context is everything

So you agree he belongs in jail for subverting the law of the US Government...that's a start. I'll settle for jail time on these crimes.


Yes, I think Bush broke federal law in Iran Contra, and Lawrence Walsh's investigation was a complete travesty. But I see a sharp difference in the way we're approaching this.

You seem to be coming at it from the angle that George H. W. Bush is a man of evil who deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, and you seem to be looking for a crime, no matter how absurd the charge, for which you can justify the sentence.

I think that's a bit silly.

George H. W. Bush is one of the most cynical human beings on the planet. I despise him on the issues, I despise the way he operates politically, and I even despise him personally. But that doesn't mean I believe in witchhunts. And that's what you seem to want.

Sorry.

You don't get it...if a Democrat is elected, the agenda will be sabotauged and deraiiled by the Republicans...unless we can get control of Congress, investigate, and get the truth out about the roal screwing we've had under Republican mismanagement since 1980.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The only way to beat Republicans is to become Republicans ourselves? You can be Linda Tripp, I'll be Richard Mellon Scaife.

Of course your dog won't hunt....you feed him that rich Republican dogfood.


I'm just not following the metaphor.

[CityZen-X]

7. Did It To Impress....

Some would say he did it to impress Bu$h*t Daddy!!!

[mobuto]

6. Yes, a reference to the dictator

I hold in high esteem all mass-murdering, US-backed, kleptomaniacal African dictators.

[JackRiddler]

10. Okay.

I hadn't assumed, but if you say so...

I've actually seen the Belgian agent who led the team that killed Lumumba confessing, in a documentary. The Belgians apologized sometime last year.

Eisenhower had approved an assassination, but the U.S. alibi is still that they did not approve or collaborate in this action by their friends (in this case) the Belgians, but that the Belgians were just quicker.

At the time, Frank Carlucci was the top or #2 CIA man at the U.S. embassy in Kinshasa (sorry, they didn't give me their organizational chart for this little essay).

Carlucci has been accused in a recent film of Lumumba's life of involvement in the Lumumba assassination, but in a documentary interview I saw he claimed that he wouldn't have known about a plot to kill Lumumba, that this would have come from a higher level.

Yeah, right.

Then Frank Carlucci moved on to Brazil and Chile, in both cases being their for coups d'etat.

Then he became like, #3 in the CIA... left during the Carter term to join the Reagan campaign. I saw him interviewed in another documentary about the CIA (French-German production). All the other former CIA guys (the likes of 1980s Afghan jihad chief Milt Bearden) were saying outright or guessing that there had been an October Surprise team on Reagan's side, cutting a deal to keep the hostages in Iran and prevent any late-inning comebacks by Carter.

Only Carlucci called that a "conspiracy theory."

He moved back into a high position at CIA and later replaced Poindexter as Nat. Sec. Adv. when the latter had to go because of Iran-Contra. Interestingly, he had some arms deals to cover up at the time too, but did a better job, and did a great job spinning Iran-Contra back out of view.

So he got the Pentagon job (Secy Def.) for the last year's worth of the Reagan admin. There, his primary achievement was to "reorganize the procurements system," i.e. he got to know everyone who was in charge of buying things there.

Then he moved to the recently founded Carlyle Group, which he served until a couple of months ago. His arrival brought about the big breakthroughs for Carlyle, which you may know is now the 12th or 11th largest defense contractor and has at times hired Papa Bush and invested in the businesses of Sonny Boy. Also in many other fine ventures like the Vinnell Corp., which trains the Saudi national guard and guards the oil wells. Key Saudi royals in turn, among them the Bin Laden family, put a lot of money into Carlyle. And into Junior's businesses, too.

Fascinating. That's just one little strand of our history.

I don't think anyone's out to get me in particular.

I just notice the stink of mafia and state-sponsored gangsterism that pervades the ruling classes of most countries, and is all the worse in those that fancy themselves superpowers entitled to rule the world.

You want to call it conspiracism? To me, it's little more than the art of recognizing crooks when you see them.

[mobuto]

12. Frank Carlucci is a pretty shady guy

as is the elder George Bush. We are in agreement that far.

But George Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

[9215]

14. Again you state opinion as fact:

But George Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

You do not know this, yet you state it as an unequivocal fact.



Now let me venture a take on how you weasel out of this unequivocal statement.

Time for a little theatre.....

The hypothetical followup:

Mobuto: "Well, actually he didn't pull the trigger...."

Me: "But then who ever claimed here that he actually pulled the trigger."

Mobuto: Well that's what you ((seem)) to be saying.

Me: "I've been saying that Bush actually pulled the trigger?

Mobuto: "That he was behind the Reagan hit."



............then you ramble on confusing the original point of the exchange-- your unequivocal statement as fact that Bush did not try to assasinate Reagan-- with verbal gobbledy gook until you tire people out who aren't familiar with your surreptitious tactics. Then on to the next topic or reply. :eyes:

Your entire purpose seems to be to sidetrack rational discussion.

What branch of the Intelligence Community do you work for?

[JackRiddler]

don't ask silly questions

I've met lots of guys like mobuto who weren't working for any branch... just fancying they were smart, because they don't allow the darker possibilities to spoil their day. Some thoughts are just unthinkable.

People adopt their general positions and attitudes and then try to live up to those, even when they're on weak argumentative ground.

And 9215, don't tell me the established Hinckley-Bush family connection constitutes a conclusive proof of conspiracy in the attempt on Reagan's life. Yes, it's a very suspicious marker. It fits in with a certian M.O. of the Bush family. Rational people will realize it's possible that Bush Co. was behind it. They will wonder and try to see if they can confirm it (rather than dismiss it out of hand in advance of inquiry, like mobuto does)... But conclusive it's not. We don't have the smoking gun in this case. It's one gut feeling against another, and since this is politics (the realm of conscious deception), there is no "simpler" explanation.

[9215]

16. You misread my post entirely. I never said anything of the

kind that this Hinkley link is definitive.

Suggestion: let mobuto answer.

[mobuto]

35. Weaseling is what separates us from the animals.

Except the weasel.


No really, I think you're the one who's engaging in creative logic.

The principle of being innocent until proven guilty is not limited to our court rooms - it is fundamental to the process of logical deduction. You have a inferred an argument - that George Bush was somehow responsible for the attempted assasination of Ronald Reagan, and have failed to prove your case. Until you can venture past "not proven," Mr. Bush will remain "not guilty." My statement was entirely justified by the absurdity of your evidence.

That Mr. Bush and Mr. Hinckley's parents lived near one another and may even have had business dealings may be remarkable in a "Six-degrees-of-separation" way, but it in no way negates the fact that Mr. Hickley is a schizophrenic who had a prior history of acutely psychotic behavior and who has maintained a record of such long after he was acquitted of shooting the President. The man has attempted suicide at least three times in St. Elizabeths, etc.

What branch of the Intelligence Community do you work for?


How long has the ward had internet access? WAIT- don't answer that right away. Instead go to your nearest dictionary of logic and look up "False Dilemma."

[Sterling]

41. I think most gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Until supporting that position became an embarrassment, as it was untenable. Some however sadly insist on going down with the ship in an pathetic attempt to deal with realities that are frightening and present a great challenge to the naive worldview that those in power are incapable of evil plans and deeds.

[9215]

43. Wrong! YOU are the one who has I clearly and

unequivocally stated that Bush did not assasinate Reagan. YOU are the one who has made the claim that Bush is innocent without one shred of evidence to support your claim. But then hear I go repeating myself because you are to stupid, lazy or decietful to grasp the meaning.

I never said I had proof of a goddamn thing nor made any claims of proof. YOUR inability to understand what was written has led you to this misunderstanding.

Did you see the ALL IMPORTANT question mark at the opening post?

Do you know the differance between asking a question and stating a fact? Or stating an opinion vs. stating a fact. NO you do not. :eyes:

mobuto, you are either deliberately misstating what I have said, or you are not up to the task, reading comprehensionwise, to understand the most basic communication on this topic. In either event I am not interested in potty training you on how to communicate in writing.

[mobuto]

45. What part of my post didn't you understand?

If you reread, say, the first half, I think I explain rather well why I don't need to prove Bush was innocent. That's not my job - the burden of proof rests with you. To pretend otherwise is intellectually dishonest and lies contrary to the laws of logical disputation.

You put forth evidence which you heavily implied (but didn't have the testicular fortitude to say outright) implicated the then Vice President in the attempted assasination of the President. And your evidence sucks. Given your inability to prove your case, the case remains unproved and Mr. Bush is therefore innocent until evidence to the contrary surfaces.

QED.

I never said I had proof of a goddamn thing nor made any claims of proof

Oh no, you merely insinuated such, what with this thread and all. Because if anybody present on this discussion is weaseling, it is you. You provide links and arguments and whatnot, yet you don't have the courage to identify outright with the case you so obviously support. You clearly think Bush had Reagan shot - so why not say so? As our current President says so eloquently, "You can't take the high horse and then claim the low road."

In either event I am not interested in potty training you on how to communicate in writing.


Dommage.

[9215]

47. Whew!!

It is my reply to post # 12 where you said:

But George Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

You state this as fact. You are stating that you know that Bush did not try to assasinate Reagan, but you do not "KNOW" this. You have never given one goddamn bit of supporting sources for any of you shit you call discourse. You often state your opinion as fact.



You really do not understand the differance between fact and opinion?

[mobuto]

49. I have explained this twice

Now I will explain this to you a third time. There will be no fourth time.


It is my reply to post # 12 where you said: But George Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

I know that's what you're replying to. You alleged, although you are now shying away from admitting it, that Bush had Reagan shot. You presented crap evidence to that effect. Therefore there is no evidence that Bush had Reagan shot. Absent any evidence, there is no case. Absent any case, the claim is unproven. Absent a proven claim, Bush is innocent. Therefore, as I have been laboring to explain over this long and protracted series of posts, until you can dig up even the most miniscule piece of evidence suggesting the contrary, I am totally justified in asserting that Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

Ok?

You have never given one goddamn bit of supporting sources for any of you shit you call discourse.

Again I have twice explained why I don't need to; you are the one accusing Bush of something. If you can't prove your allegations, that's it. No opposing evidence is needed. I don't need to prove a case; you need to prove yours. And you just haven't come even remotely close to doing that. And you can't turn this around by suddenly asking me to prove Bush innocent.

Well, can you prove that George Washington wasn't a British spy or that the Queen of England didn't have prior knowledge of Martin Luther King's assasination? Of course not. But that's not the way the game is played; one is innocent until proven guilty.

[9215]

55. Bullshit! You haven't explained anything.

You are stating opinion as fact.

You said: But George Bush did not try to assasinate Ronald Reagan.

You do not know this as I have pointed out and yet you state it as fact. You are wrong mobuto. You fucked up and will not admit it.



I never stated that Bush had Reagan shot. Prove it! Bring up the quote.

Suspecting something is one thing, but stating it as fact when you do not have proof is a lie.

[mobuto]

58. I know you never said it

You just argued for it and posted links that argued for it.

I'd never accuse you of having the courage to publicly identify with opinions you support and promote.

[9215]

59. WELL????

are you going to acknowledge your full of sh*t on "knowing" Poppy was not behind the Reagan assasination attempt or not?

Since you cannot supply the info to support what you "know" then that means you are full of sh*t.

Now all you have to do is acknowledge that you are full of sh*t and move along.

But since you probably have never taken responsibility for a goddamn thing you've done or said in your life I don't suppose you'll start now.

[mobuto]

61. No.

I explained my reasoning three times. A fourth seems entirely superfluous. If you still don't understand, then ask a friend for help, because there really is no way I explain my statement any more clearly.

Cheers.

But since you probably have never taken responsibility for a goddamn thing you've done or said in your life I don't suppose you'll start now.

I love you too.

[JackRiddler]

63. Not really true...

You write:

The principle of being innocent until proven guilty is not limited to our court rooms - it is fundamental to the process of logical deduction.

Logical deduction does not deal in moral categories of guilt or innocence. We're not making a formal accusation here; it's legitimate to speculate either way. In fact, if you *don't* speculate either way, you predetermine the outcome.

Testing a historical hypothesis ("historical," meaning of an event that cannot be repeated under experimental conditions) requires you to first play as though it was true, and find evidence to support it; then to try to knock that evidence down.

You won't get too far with most hypotheses, which makes history a very frustrating and inexact discipline. You can establish facts, but you can almost never reach a definitive interpretation, or even determine which of the facts are pertinent.

Anyway, even in a courtroom the presumption of innocence applies to judges and juries - not prosecutors. Think of us as unemployed prosecutors. We're examining a very shady crime complex, a mafia family, and trying to figure out what the hell we could actually pin on them to make it stick.

You have a inferred an argument - that George Bush was somehow responsible for the attempted assasination of Ronald Reagan, and have failed to prove your case. Until you can venture past "not proven," Mr. Bush will remain "not guilty."

Sure, Bush remains "not guilty." But a good prosecutor would sure want to question him!

[AntiCoup2K4]

18. Why is it that the "friends of the Bush family" always turn out to be....

..the enemies of America??

Adolf Hitler. The Hinkleys. The Bin Ladens. Noriega. Hussein.

If you think this is all a bizzare string of coincidences then you need to turn off the FAUX News and get some fucking oxygen to the brain :crazy:

[Octafish]

8. Bush Organized Crime Family S.O.P. — Use a Patsy

Call me a conspiracy nut or a moron, I don't care which. Here's a free...

BFEE History Lesson

Strange how history repeats itself when it comes to the Bush Organized Crime Family. This can be seen in their typical modus operandi. Whenever they need something REALLY important to happen — like a big promotion at work, say — something REALLY coincidental and violent seems to happen to just the right person (or country) at the right time. What’s ironic, the right person often seems to be a former business partner or their close relative.

First case in point, John Hinckley, A/K/A “Jody,” short for “JF: Wherever You Are Staring at Me.” A confused young man decides to win the heart of Hollywood star Jody Foster by assassinating Old Pruneface himself, Ronald Reagan just a few months after taking the oath of office in 1981. Turns out that the lone gunman du jour also was the son of a longtime family friend of the Bushes. In fact, Neil Bush had been invited to dinner at the home of Scott Hinckley, brother John Hinckley. The dinner engagement was scheduled to take place the day after John Hinckley attempted to take out Geritol Monkeyskull. Synchronistic isn’t the word when describing how the Bushes seem to do business and then turn on people who once were their friends. Describing their anguish, the Hinckley brothers’ parents later told CNN's Larry King they were casual business partners, longtime social acquaintances, and political supporters of the guy who came within an inch of going straight into the Oval Office — Vice President George Herbert Walker Bush.

Second case in point, Saddam Hussein, A/K/A “The Butcher of Union Bank of Switzerland.” For years, Iraq sided with the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. And since the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, Iraq was considered a terrorist state. Then, in the early 1980s, the country’s leader, longtime CIA stooge, Saddam Hussein, launched an invasion on neighboring Iran. All was happy in the Reagan-BUSH White House as the war between two of America’s enemies claimed more than a million lives. But, again, there was money to be made, so the White House arranged for the American taxpayers to guarantee $5 billion in loan guarantees to Saddam, using agricultural credits greased out of the country through an obscure Atlanta bank branch of an Italian national bank, the Banco Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL). The loans ostensibly were for food, but in reality were used to trade for arms, like the war chemicals Rumsfeld helped deliver. Of course, at the same time, Ollie North and the US were sending spare F-4 and Hawk missile parts to Iran in trade for hostages. Besides the millions of dead and wounded, the war ended in stalemate, but the US arms manufacturers and their salesmen in the Middle-East did all right. A few years later, a business opportunity presented itself when Kuwait started ripping off Iraqi oil by slant-drilling and Saddam went through the palace roof. Not to be calmed down, Saddam (whose name means “He Who Pushes to Oppose” in Arabic) was encouraged in 1991 by US Ambassador April Glaspie (“The US takes no position on Arab-Arab border disputes.”) to go over the line and into Kuwait. This was followed by Gulf War One to liberate the fascist Kuwaiti Oiligarchy and the rest is history leading to the mess of today. Ambassador Glaspie later testified she was ordered to say so by the State Department, which of course, operated under the direction of President George Herbert Walker Bush.

Third case in point, Manuel Noriega, A/K/A “Pineapple Face.” For years, as second banana, Manny collected payola from the CIA to watch over his boss, Trujillo. The US was worried they would steal the Panama Canal, publicly, but wanted to know where all the drug money was going, secretly. So, like any good capitalist, Manny took advantage of his situation and put some sand in Trujillo’s aviation fuel and became the new supreme leader. Of course, he also played all sides against the others and got very rich in the process, using the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) to handle the proceeds from the CIA and the drug runners. Interesting bank of great importance to the Bush Organized Crime Family and all its connections the late Danny Casolaro called “The Octopus.” BCCI was the bank that tied Middle East oil money investors, the Bush Organized Crime Family Trifecta of Trifectas, international drug running and money laundering, international terrorism from Abu Nidhal to Ollie North, the KGB and the CIA, and of course Manuel Noriega. All was well and good until Manny opened his yap and said that he’d never be indicted by the US, because he had the goods on his good friend and business partner, US Vice President George Herbert Walker Bush.

Fourth case in point, Osama bin Laden, A/K/A “The Black Sheep.” For years, the Bush Family was close business partners with the House of bin Laden. It was a natural fit — all that oil money to burn, all those American weapons to buy. Klayman of Judicial Watch claims the Bushes stay over at the bin Ladens’ house when in the Kingdom. As they own the largest construction company in the whole Middle East, it’s a good bet the place has good central A/C. All was well until the Soviets decided to liberate Afghanistan. So throughout the 1980s, son Osama bin Laden, recruited by the CIA, took the lead of a faction fighting the Soviet occupation. Of course, no one knew what to do when they won and suddenly there were all these trained well-armed and fanatically angry religious militants after peace broke out, but hey, someone will figure out something. First, there was money to be made in West Texas and George W Bush needed some seed money and nose candy allowance. James R Bath, Bush TANG buddy became the official business rep for the bin Laden family in the entire US. He invested bin Laden cash in Arbusto Oil and HARKEN Energy and wherever else W needed some grease. Things went well, all in all. And then came 9-11 and Osama became Public Enemy Number One, at the behest of now (p)Resident George Walker Bush.

Now, is the pattern clear? For the denser DU trolls, allow me: The Bush Organized Crime Family — the very axis of American history embodying NAZIs, the Mafia, the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, pro-Shah Iranians, anti-Communists the world over — makes friends with someone of use and then uses them for their nefarious purposes. After they’re done using up whatever talents, skills, or cash their chums once presented, they dispose of, er, liquidate their former friends and business partners and that’s that. I hope this makes DUers wonder about what the future holds for them under the leadership of current Bush front-man, the Little Turd from Crawford. Remember, to the Bushes, dead men tell no tales.

BTW: This little essay doesn’t even consider all the other scandals, rip-offs, strange and convenient deaths and political intrigues that the brave call Treason. Those are the subjects of another post.

Oh yeah. There’s another important historical precedent to consider when it comes to Funny Things Bush. Somebody went to great lengths at great expense to make Lee Harvey Oswald out as the patsy on November 22, 1963. Covering it up for years wasn’t cheap or easy, either. The former Marine was family, too. CIA and FBI. His name and contact info were in the late George de Mohrenschildt’s address book, along with that of George Herbert Walker Bush “Poppy.”



The Supreme Leader at play.

SOURCES:


John Hinckley, Taxi Driver

http://www.geocities.com/northstarzone/HINCKLEY.html

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/6-19-03/discussion.cgi.66.html

http://www.nathanielblumberg.com/neil.htm


Saddam Hussein Love Story


http://www.fair.org/extra/9505/iraqgate.html


http://www.gulfweb.org/doc_show.cfm?ID=527


http://www.cjr.org/year/93/2/iraqgate.asp


http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1992/h920519l.htm

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/kissingeriraq.htm

http://www.paranormalnews.com/textfiles/conspiracies/BNL_IraqGate_Scandal.txt


Manuel Noriega Had a Coke Smile

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lormand/poli/soa/panama.htm


http://law.about.com/library/911/blnational.htm


http://www.conspire.com/drugscia2.html

http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/dictators/manuel-noriega/


Osama bin Laden Been Missing


http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/carlyle-bush-osb.html

http://www.mail-archive.com/[e-mail]/msg27013.html

http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm

[9215]

9. This needs to be repeated:

You said: "The Bush Organized Crime Family — the very axis of American history embodying NAZIs, the Mafia, the CIA, anti-Castro Cubans, pro-Shah Iranians, anti-Communists the world over — makes friends with someone of use and then uses them for their nefarious purposes. After they’re done using up whatever talents, skills, or cash their chums once presented, they dispose of, er, liquidate their former friends and business partners and that’s that. I hope this makes DUers wonder about what the future holds for them under the leadership of current Bush front-man, the Little Turd from Crawford. Remember, to the Bushes, dead men tell no tales."

Those poor suckers in the GTMO prison built by Cheney's company Halliburton are the latest victims. I wonder who they really are. Somebody on an earlier thread said they were bought by Pakistan's ISI for 50.00 bucks a head.

[oasis]

54. good research

[KFC]

11. Also, Bush (his whole family) is a shape-shifting reptilian being

http://www.davidicke.com/icke/index1c.html

"Let me interject that these reptilian bloodlines overwhelmingly come out of Europe from France and Britain. Alsace- Lorraine is a particularly important area for them...The same goes with the banking families in America. George Bush and Barbara Bush are from the same bloodline"

Unfortunately, Clinton is in the mix too:

"At a very early age, Clinton became governor of what everyone seemed to accept as the Rockefeller State of Arkansas. Then, of course, he became the President of the United States. These people are brought through because of their bloodlines, and the bloodlines relate to the fact that it has a genetic and, therefore, a vibrational compatibility with these fourth-dimensional reptilian beings, who can operate through these physical bloodlines, much like someone donning a space suit. They can work into the third dimension through these particular lines."

[stickdog]

13. See: Disinformation Theory (NT)

[9215]

15. Yes, specifically trying to blur the distinction between

constructive criticism and whacko conspiracy talk.

Anatoly Golitzin's (spelling)?

Good seeing you again.

:toast:

[jeter]

17. Can I ask you guys a question?

Is every assassination attempt part of a huge conspiracy?

Just curious.

[9215]

20. " In politics nothing happens by accident.

If it happened, you can bet it was planned that way."
Franklin Delano Roosevelt http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/f/franklind136346.html

[Sterling]

21. A smart person would

look at them on a case by case basis, I am sure you can agree.

[DUreader]

22. small conspiracies succeed, 'wheels within wheels'

dig it

[stickdog]

24. A conspiracy requires just two people conspiring.

I'd say the vast majority of assassinations involve at least two planners.

Wouldn't you?

[9215]

26. Case study: Dascle and Leahy anthrax poisioning

Case Study on Leahy Daschle anthrax cases:

http://www.fourwinds10.com/news/05-government/C-fraud/04-US-gov/2003/05C4-06-07-03-Anthrax-coverup-by-FBI.html
snip
WHY WAS SENATOR LEAHY THE PRIMARY TARGET OF THE ANTHRAX LETTERS?
Certain assumptions related to the anthrax case appear to be evidence or fact. It is likely that some of those are distractions or disinformation, which was designed to lead you away from the real criminal or motive.
According to BBC News on August 18, 2002, "But while investigators searched for links between the anthrax attacks and al-Qaeda, Prof. Don Foster immediately suspected that dating the letters 11 September was merely a ruse to throw the authorities off the scent. Prof. Foster also says the killer seems to have tried implicating two former USAMRIID scientists who had left the laboratory in unhappy circumstances by posting the letters from near their homes in New Jersey."
It was also easy to determine that two phrases in the anthrax letters were distractions. "Death to Israel" and "Death to America" were meant to lead you to believe that the criminal was a foreigner.
Following the same line of reasoning, the letters that were sent to the newspaper organizations were meant to mislead you about the motive.
It would appear that the two leaders of the Senate and House of Representatives were targets. If there are enough distractions that seem to be relevant, the investigation will focus on something other than the real issue. Using the "distraction or disinformation theory," throw out the possibility that Senator Tom Daschle and Representative Dennis Hastert were the primary targets of the anthrax letters......more

[shanti]

38. oh shyt

my grandmother's family was from alsace loraine. does that make me part reptilian?

lol

[hippiechick]

19. I thought Chapman shot Lennon to impress Jodie Foster ?

:shrug: Am I getting my crazed shooters mixed up ?


:hippie:

[DUreader]

23. Stephen King shot Lennon

lol

[JackRiddler]

25. Important question

Is it true that Hinckley was carrying a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" - just like Mark David Chapman (the killer of John Lennon) was?

[Minstrel Boy]

28. I've read that he did

Now, did you know that JD Salinger served in the US Army Counter-Intelligence Corp with Henry Kissinger?

[JackRiddler]

62. Yes, but...

there's no real substantiation on either. I'd like to know what he DID in the CIC, if it was significant, and whether both assassins really did carry Catcher in the Rye, and what the possible relation might be. (Off here in mind control land, but wtf).

[Old and In the Way]

29. Do you ever think Hinckly will be allowed out of his prison?

I doubt it. I'd sure be interested in his side of the events leading up to the assassination attempt. Was the Jody Foster infatuation ral, planted in the Press, or implanted in his brain. Were suggestions made to him to attempt the assassination? It would be most interesting, in light of waht we know today, to revisit this guy's story.

Was there any testimony in his trial? Has anyone had any interviews with him since his incarceration?

[9215]

39. Moussaoui and Hinkley have/had the same psychiatrist

What he (Raymond Patterson) knows, who he has talked too, his contacts with the CIA (for national security reasons of course) has given the puppetmasters an edge on covering up any involvement they may have had. I'm sure he has told all he knows about his patients to the BFEE with updates regularly.


http://newsblaster.cs.columbia.edu/archives/2002-05-01-08-00-56/web/summaries/05_01_02_17.html

[Unknown Known]

31. Thanks 9215 for this thread

Humans will exist in a state of denial if it runs contrary to their beliefs.

Where was GHWB on the day Reagan was shot?

Also, for all the LOVE RW loons lob onto Ronald Reagan, why do they protest the stem-cell research which could possibly salvage their great leader?

[9215]

34. Please delete

the last sentence of your post. God No, we don't need a resurrected Ronnie about now. :scared: :evilgrin:

Thanks, my pleasure.

Those simple questions where was George on 11/22/63 or GW when Raygun was shot, or Marvin or Neil Bush on 9/11 if asked in a court of law could shake something loose. I like the Sam Spade style of detective work, he would get in and shake things up with questions that threw people off guard. He knew how the criminal world operated and used his knowledge to get them to spill the beans. The use of the "fall guy" in The Maltese Falcon has to be one of the greatest scenes in movie history. William Shakespeare would have roared in approval. Like a Shakespearean play you can watch it over and over and see something new every time. I loved it as a kid and as an adult.

It is difficult to cover up where you were on a given date, and very suspicious when you don't remember where you were, as Poppy doesn't, on Nov. 22, 1963 because everybody over ten years old knew where they

where on the hour. You could get ten thousand people lined up and they would all be able to tell you in vivid detail.

[9215]

48. BTW Dashiell Hammett, the author of numerous

detective novels was a real life detective.

[Unknown Known]

56. Totally understand what you mean

Just another example of wingers hypocricy. Nancy Reagan begged * to support stem cell research.

Nancy hated GHW* and Ronnie didn't want him as VP. IIRC, it was Dole that Reagan wanted. This is all in Kitty Kelly's book.

2 1/2 months after Reagan's inauguration, he was shot. Ronnie was never the same after that. It's my opinion, GHW* , along with Baker/Meese and the rest of the gang, was pretty much runny the show after April 1981.

[9215]

60. I wonder if they let Reagan know they didn't "like" him?

Extortion?

You are right about Nancy not liking Bush. I wonder if she will ever come clean on what she knew, or Ronnie knew?

[TruthIsAll]

42. Where was GHWB on the day JFK was shot? n/t

[stickdog]

33. Just check the encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_family_conspiracy_theory

More background:

http://www.tarpley.net/bush17.htm

Info worth examining from:

http://www.nathanielblumberg.com/bush.htm

Neil Bush, a landman for Amoco Oil, told Denver reporters he had met Scott Hinckley at a surprise party at the Bush home January 23, 1981, which was approximately three weeks after the U.S. Department of Energy had begun what was termed a "routine audit" of the books of the Vanderbilt Energy Corporation, the Hinckley oil company. In an incredible coincidence, on the morning of March 30, three representatives of the U.S. Department of Energy told Scott Hinckley, Vanderbilt's vice president of operations, that auditors had uncovered evidence of pricing violations on crude oil sold by the company from 1977 through 1980. The auditors announced that the federal government was considering a penalty of two million dollars. Scott Hinckley reportedly requested "several hours to come up with an explanation" of the serious overcharges. The meeting ended a little more than an hour before John Hinckly Jr. shot President Reagan.

More Blumberg. (Good info mixed with some disinfo, so read critically):

http://www.nathanielblumberg.com/neil.htm

[Yupster]

57. Most interesting thing to me is the

"six alleged or confessed girlfriends..." of George Bush

I had only ever heard of one name, and she denied it till the day she died.

Anyone know who these six girlfriends were?

Has Bush confessed to having girlfriends?

Or is it the girlfriends confessing and he denying? In that case I would term it "woman charges, Bush denies," rather than woman confesses.

I certainly would see it as odd if a newspaper said Browning, Broaddrick, Flowers, Gracen all confess to having affairs with Clinton. I think "women claim they had affair with Clinton" would be more reasonable.

Anyone know who these six women are, and how many of the affairs Bush has confessed to?

[JackRiddler]

64. kickerooo