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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:07 PM
Original message
What is it like to be black in America?
How much day-to-day racism do you experience?
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MrSoundAndVision Donating Member (879 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. It's not the day to day racism that's the problem
It's that racism is built into American society because of capitalism. They are disproportionately poor and will remain so until the capitalistic system is done away with for the most part. In the meantime, the glorification of black athletes are used as a tool to help keep this system in place, and it's pretty belittling when you think about it. But hey, that's the media's function over all of us.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. MLK didn't want to get rid of the capitalist system. He wanted to give
everyone a seat at the table. Same with Gandhi.

They didn't hate the game. They hated that they weren't allowed to play.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
148. MLK never had his dream realized.
Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a synthesis that combines the truth of both.
It means ultimately coming to see that the problem of racism, the problem of economic exploitation, and the problem of war are all tied together. These are the triple evils that are interralated.

- MLK, Jr.
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freespirit2003 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
161. MLK and Capitalism
Way to go. You get it.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. sorry, capitalism is here to stay
the democratic party platform is capitalist. This message board promotes the democratic party, right?

The American public is, was, and will always be against socialism. Probably for good reason.

They have and will encourage more regulation. They have and will accept increased progressiveness of the tax code.

But they will never accept anything other than a capitalistic market economy
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slackdude Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. The word socialism has been demonized in the USA
But in most countries with any sort of democracy, there is a healthy mixture of both capitalism and socialism. Unchecked and unregulated Capitalism is as much of a nightmare as a totalitarian socialist state, only instead of an abuse of government power you have an abuse of private power. We have several things right here in the USA that are socialist in nature. We have labor unions which go against the purest free market capitalism by helping workers use their collective bargaining power regardles of what the market dictates. We have Social Security and Medicare. This isn't the McCarthy era. capitalism and socialism can and do coexist together quite nicely. Many countries which have social democracies also enjoy a higher standard of living, better education, and better access to medicine than we do.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
67. Sorry, but you're wrong...
no matter what any political party supports, capitalism, in its current form at least, is doomed to failure. The theoretical basis of capitalism predicates continued economic growth; in an economy built on utilisation of resources which are LIMITED, this is not possible, no matter what anyone wants.


The American public is going to have to accept something else, because the end of the epoch of market-economy consumerism is in sight, with a horizon of no more than a century or so at the outside.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #67
111. And we all know that "unlimited growth"
is the "mentality" of a cancer cell. :think:
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
97. Well, I think his vision would've involved at least some aspects of...
socialism, even if he didn't come right out and say, "Capitalism sucks; we need a complete and total system overhaul." But he was about more than just the material aspects of oppression, which ultimately is where he parts ways with Marxists and related -ists.
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are_we_united_yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
105. Yes
you are wrong.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. I travel alot...every week in fact...
When I go to board with first class they always tell me that I have to wait until they board coach....they don't even look @ my ticket to see that is where I set.

Women always grab their purses when they see me. What they don't know is my Chanel is real and I paid over 1000 for it. They just assume I want to steal theirs.

When I go into a store with a bag people think I'm gonna steal I usually end up having to show them that my Chihuahua is in the bag and that I couldn't steal and put it in the bag cuz he would eat it.

When I go to the Chanel Store or Chanel section on Needles Markups I get the people who like to follow me. I always give the sales person who treats me with respect the sales commision. Not the ones who assume I'm automatically gonna steal cuz I'm Black.

Stuff like that all the time...every week for me.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You sound like Reese Witherspoon's character in Legally Blond.
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 05:17 PM by AP
Minus the race angle, of course.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yup, I take Onyx with me where ever I go...We're staying in the Omni
in Detroit....Right now I'm at work and he's sitting on my desk in his sweatsuit.

I bought him a ANYONE BUT BUSH baby bib that I'm making into a doggie T-SHIRT. We're gonna go campaignin for the Democratic Candidate after the Primaries!
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Sad isn't it?
Not much has changed in America. Hell it has only been since the 60's that Black people got their Civil Rights. This was semi-squashed though by militarizing the police and creating a phony drug war which dis-proportionally targets black people.

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. why do you shop at NM
what a piece of shit, overpriced snooty store.
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Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. Uggh...:(
I don't even want to know what "Ay-rabs" are going through in the U.S.A...Blacks are generally treated well enough here in Cornwall, but a lot of Pakistanis aren't treated particularly decently.
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Bok_Tukalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's like being white
... only you can spend more time in the sun.


Melanin politics is going to be the death of the Democratic Party if we are not careful.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. OY
Just...OY
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I don't understand that statement
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I think
he just exposed himself.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. I agree
It reminds me of that Tombstone Pizza commercial. "What do you want on your Tombstone?"
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Is it now?
And you would know this because...?
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. I really dislike the partisan exaggeration on both sides of race issues
liberals and blacks need to admit that racism has gone WAY down in the last decade and that blacks can in a very large part not care about poor white people as much as angry white males don't care about poor black people.

The more and more I learn about politics the more I hate the 2 party system. I'll probably never believe that the dem party isn't the much better party however it is far from perfect

I think race based affirmative action is wrong and so probably do alot of elected democrats who would never, ever admit it because the black vote is so critical to democratic victories.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. The post above is proof positive
that ingrained racism is alive and well in America. :eyes:
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
53. How ridiculous!
If Bombtrack opposes "Affirmative Action" (read: class-based preferences) he is a RACIST? That's typical far left crap that makes social leftists so galling to the VAST majority of the American people. Economic populism of the left has a future in America....far left wacky things like supporting racial preferences DO NOT. We need to get over it and support Affirmative Action if you want, but don't cry "racism" :eyes: every time someone who opposes it has the guts to admit it. MANY Democrats think it's time ALL minorities (and not just Asian-Americans) start working within the system as opposed to whining about it and expecting preferential treatment at every turn.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. No. You are the one doing the whining and crying.
Affirmative action is a drop in the fucking bucket and far from hurting whites, has benefited them more than anyone else.

Literally overnight, because white women were included, whites jumped the scale economically. Two professional income families now with huge houses, suvs, you name it, all as a result of affirmative action.

Quit crying and whining. Affirmative action has become an excuse for whites who can't cut it.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Right....how ridiculous
The suburbs are filing up with black people because some blacks refuse to accept the victim mentality and engage in the embarrassing kind of whining that YOUR posts show. Whites "can't cut it" and THAT'S why many of them oppose Affirmative Action? That is absurd. Could it be they see no reason (or moral virtue) in elevating someone to their "rightful place" based solely on RACE? Your post is typical of the black racism in this country that seems to be perfectly acceptable because nobody dare question it for fear of THEMSELVES being called racist. It gets tiring.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. Want some cheese to go with that whine?
:nopity:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #80
112. HI SOLOMON!!!!
:hi: :loveya: :hi:

Ever been "elevated" just for being black? ROTFLMAO!!!

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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. Are you serious
You said "Racism has gone WAY down in the last decade" by what standard? Nevermind it's not worth it. You have obviously made up your mind based on something that may not be centered in reality and hence any arguments would not really be worth the effort. I do appreciate your letting others know that there are these attitudes in the party still. Thanks, peace.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Er, eh
Unless your contention was with the word "WAY," which is subjective, I'd have to agree that racism has declined. Oh, wait. Nevermind. I just noteced the "in the last decade" part. That is questionable. I don't think there's any doubt that it has declined in the past several decades though.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. With the emergence of right wing radio
people now feel vindicated in being polite racist. In the last 10 years the number of black men incarcerated on drug charges has increased. This institutionalized racism is having a devastating impact on the black community! Now if you look at the sentences that are given for crack vs. powder cocaine, there is a vast difference. What's the difference? It's the same substance but one is done predominantly by whites and the other predominantly by blacks. The number of police stops in black communities without reason have increased thus the odds are that they will net more black men for the Prison Industrial Complex.

Just two weeks ago in Philadelphia a black man was found hung in a tree in an isolated area. This did not make the national news.

Do you recall the number of black churches in the south that mysteriously burned down to the ground. I think that happened in the last 10 years.

Blacks have the right to vote, but it's been proven that those votes can be thrown away and discounted as in Florida where Al Gore won. This was not happening 10 years ago.

Police are still killing unarmed black men. Here in Cincy there have been so many police shootings of unarmed men that it's enough to make me sick.

Bottom line we are regressing on some very important fronts. There is a politeness that some people have towards their neighbors and I don't deny that. Over the last 10 years there has not been enough progress. You can't convince me otherwise because I see the impact on the community directly so with all due respect I will disagree with the original premise.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. This is having a discussion about race
You're right. I agree with ever word you say. I want to give the other side, for the sake of that discussion.

It's frustrating for that 'poor white male' because he's having problems too. Serious problems. Some are close to what you mention. They go to prison because of a bar fight, drug crimes, lapsed insurance; a host of things that are important but wouldn't have given them a prison record a few years ago. After that, they are targeted in their home towns too and harrassed and often end up back in prison on trivial things. They don't get an education, but don't have the decent paying manufacturing and labor jobs that existed a few years ago. They think that college is only for women and minorities and that there's no help for them anyway. Women are mad because these guys don't have jobs so they leave them because there's more programs for single moms than women living with the dad or husband. These guys really are having problems and really do feel left out and frustrated.

So how do we open the discussion so both sides see the real problems the other side is having?
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. The discussion has to focus
on poverty and how all Americans can have a better life. Poverty of course affects black and white but there is always this resentment that occurs between the two. This resentment is used and exploited by Repugs in order to divide the democratic party's base. Some poor whites are led to believe that their enemies are blacks. This is such utter nonsense but it has worked very well in the South. Some poor white people will vote against their own self interest in order to vote for a candidate that seems to be anti-affirmative action. I think we have to talk about jobs, education, and the unfair drug laws. These are common topics that affect both. I honestly don't know how to get past the crap to the real issues as long as Rush and others are there to spread their message of hate on the airways. One thing is for sure when a man is working and can take care of his family the outside crap is not that big of a deal and evil forces can not divide us. The economy is possibly the biggest key in uniting both sides.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You just made the class based argument
Seems to me.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Neither side should deny either sides specific problems
we should look for common ground and fight. There will probably always be specific things that affect me as a black person but if we are trying to unite then we will need to discuss common issues.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Very well said
:)
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. Could you
discuss the "institutionalized racism" issue further. You mentioned the difference in sentencing for the different drugs and I understand that. Could you provide some more examples?

In my area, women are also a group whose prison or institutional population is growing rapidly and most of it is drug-related.

I have heard many references to the discrimination evident in prison populations (I'm not sure if I framed this exactly correct) and really would like to understand more about it.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Specifically when users
of powder cocaine are prosecuted the length of sentences is extremely light compared to the sentences of those found with crack or rock cocaine. We're talking 1 year vs. 10 years. Now both substances are the same but crack is a solid form of the powder and supposedly is more addictive. The verdict is still out on this. Women who are caught in the possession of crack cocaine that may not be using or selling can also be prosecuted for extremely harsh sentences as well. Clinton gave a pardon to one such young lady who was a student at Howard University who's boyfriend stashed the stuff in their apartment. She was serving 20 years.

When one uses the term institutionalized it means that discrimination has been incorporated into an accepted system. The entire judicial system is wrought with discrimination and when I say "institutional" I am specifically refering to this system. It starts from the bottom with the officer that decides which individual will be arrested even when the crimes are exactly the same. It then goes to the prosecuter who has to decide which people will be charged and with what. There have been several studies conducted here in Cincy that show police officers use profiling in order to cast a wide net in black neighborhoods. This assures that more blacks will be stopped and more will be arrested. Sentencing is the biggest problem on so many levels. Here's a website that you can check out if you want to see the results of the latest racial profiling study that has occured here in Cincy. It's drawing alot of attention and debate. You can view the actual data and decide for yourself. It's pretty interesting.

http://www.acluohio.org
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Thanks for your informative reply
and thanks for the link too.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. No problem at all.:)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
145. Here is a thread I posted in old DU on this issue
When race arises as an issue on DU I am often FLABBERGHASTED by the response of some that race is LESS of an issue today when one REALLY EXAMINES the facts. I posted this thread a year ago. Reading this conversation today, it is clear not much has altered in perceptions.

It IS sad. Reading the post of the woman above with the Chanel bag really irritates me. RACE IS a DEMOCRATIC party issue. RACISM is the Republican party's answer to this issue. Democrats who think we need to get away from this rather than UNDERSCORE it are part of the problem. Look at election results. The most STATISTICALLY reliable core of our base...more than women and more than other minorities, and even UNION members are BLACK AMERICANS.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...



nothingshocksmeanymore (18131 posts)
Nov-25-02, 04:52 PM (ET)
Half of the two million people in US prisons are African American

and on DU, we still talk about the ONE black guy who isn't.
What's up with that?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du...



Racism, Prisons, and the Future of Black America


There are today over two million Americans incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails throughout the United States. More than one-half, or one million, are black men and women. The devastating human costs of the mass incarceration of one out of every 35 individuals within black America are beyond imagination. While civil rights organizations like the NAACP and black institutions such as churches and mosques have begun to address this widespread crisis of black mass imprisonment, they have frankly not given it the centrality and importance it deserves.

snip
In 1974, the number of Americans incarcerated in all state prisons stood at 187,500. By 1991, the number had reached 711,700. Nearly two-thirds of all state prisoners in 1991 had less than a high school education. One third of all prisoners were unemployed at the time of their arrests. Incarceration rates by the end of the 1980s had soared to unprecedented rates, especially for black Americans. As of December 1989, the total US prison population, including federal institutions, exceeded one million for the first time in history, an incarceration rate of the general population of one out of every 250 citizens.

For African Americans, the rate was over 700 per 100,000, or about seven times more than for whites. About one half of all prisoners were black. Twenty-three percent of all black males in their twenties were either in jail or prison, on parole, probation, or awaiting trial. The rate of incarceration of black Americans in 1989 had even surpassed that experienced by blacks who still lived under the apartheid regime of South Africa.

snip

The pattern of racial bias in these statistics is confirmed by the research of the US Commission on Civil Rights, which found that while African Americans today constitute only 14% of all drug users nationally, they are 35% of all drug arrests, 55% of all drug convictions, and 75% of all prison admissions for drug offenses. Currently, the racial proportions of those under some type of correctional supervision, including parole and probation, are one-in-fifteen for young white males, one-in-ten for young Latino males, and one-in-three for young African-American males. Statistically today, more than eight out of every ten African-American males will be arrested at some point in their lifetime.


http://www.afsc.org/pwork/1200/122k05.htm


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #145
154. America has NEVER faced her racist demons
I'm actually delighted by this flurry of threads as a frank discussion of the issues is so long overdue. The bottom line is, in my view, that the ingrained racism in America has allowed a Pandora's Box of unmitigated horror to be opened and its death-dealing destruction unleashed upon our fragile planet. "Getting it" is no longer an academic pursuit, our collective SURVIVAL depends on it.

There's space for EVERYONE in the new prison "privatized" system. Another "oldie but goodie..." here:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0233/solomon.php

EXAMINE THE FACTS.

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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #145
158. Yes, the statistics tell the story.
This is, in my opinion the worst manifestation of racism today. It's almost as if there has been a legal form of slavery found with the Prison Industrial Complex. I fear that nothing is being done and nobody cares enough to stop it. The presidential candidates aren't talking about it that's for sure.

Thanks for the background information.
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Bombtrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. meant to be decadeS
like since the late 60's, early 70's

swear to Christ there was supposed to be an S at the end of it.

Of course now I'm an ignorant conservative in a few repliers minds. Oh well
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Don't fret... it's not the plurality of decade ...
that seals the deal. It's the absolutely illogical idea that affirmative action is unnecessary.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. How far does
affirmative action reach? If it doesn't already, do you think it should extend to Asian-Americans, Arab-Americans, etc.?
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. It does already. It applies to all who are not in the majority population.
e o m
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Please forgive me for being ignorant.
I really wasn't sure. Thanks for the reply.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. No forgiveness necessary! Really.
Nobody knows everything... I know that because I know I don't. (I pretend to sometimes, but don't tell anyone. *sssshhhhh*)
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
122. Oh, come on
I believe you. Your statement really wouldn't have been credible if you hadn't meant decadeS. Ignorant conservative? Nope. Even I'll give you that.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. This thread Shows VICTIM Mentality
This thread is disgusting and shows how DU gives lip service to leftist economic issues, but when push comes to shove it's the social issues that makes one "left" at DU. It seems like with all social issues DU is wacky left. This thread is a good example. Bombtrack, in a post above, opposes Affirmative Action and a reply says that his post shows that racism is alive and well. Well, yeah, ironically enough it shows that black racism is alive and well. The replies in this thread make it sound like it's just HELL living with those evil white people in America. Try living with some folks in black Africa, and THEN come here and talk about how awful it is in America. The fact is Affirmative Action (class-based preferences) are inherently RACIST and are opposed by millions of Democrats...though....nobody dare say it as they are labeled by the wacky left as "racist".....this is all so silly. Asian-Americans have proved you can come here with NOTHING and make it in this country. Black Americans must quit following the victim-makers and take control of their own destiny. I am a believer in CLASS politics and LEFT, populist economics - not social leftism that sickens most Americans and will guarantee that our party stays solidly in the fringe in so many states. Let's quit sounding like it's a disease to be black! Let's quit the "I'm a victim and people don't want to stand in line with me," kind of crap. I mean, it's hard to read that without laughing. :eyes: Let's GROW UP as liberals and quit exploiting racial differences. That's the REAL racism in this country in the 21st century!
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Asians don't have equality with whites
They are relatively successful due to high education rates. When you compare similarly educated whites and Asians, whites have a subtantial edge. Why do you think that is the case?
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Damn you really exposed yourself this time.
Damn. A classic.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
68. What's wrong?
Soloman: "Exposed yourself?" In other words, disagree with Soloman and you "expose" yourself as a political freethinker and as a Democrat who not only opposes affirmative action - but dares to admit it? More Democrats oppose racial preferences than you realize....I just happen to not have a problem admitting it, because I HATE hypocrisy!
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. You know you make an awful lot of assumptions when you talk.
The wrong ones.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
133. you're right about that
n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #59
71. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. As a matter of fact
I spent 7 months in Ethiopia in 1999. I think most black people, if given a choice, would rather live here with all of our problems than in Addis Ababa or Gonder (where I was).

RUSH????? What crap.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #75
124. most black people in america
are americans. do ya think most white americans would rather live here than in the russia? :wtf: what a racist argument...and it seems you are the one with the "victim" mentality.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #124
138. HI NOIRETBLU!!!!
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 01:46 PM by Karenina
:hi: :loveya: :hi:

What IS that "go back to Africa" thing? :freak: There are LOTS of Africans in my neighborhood who have relocated here in the last 3 years. Never once have I been assumed by them to be African. I'm immediately addressed in German or English or ASKED if I am able to speak French. Go figure! ;-)
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #138
151. karenina...you should be eternally grateful
doncha know that YET? things aren't as bad as they were...you should be grateful. some africans are in worse shape than you are...you should be grateful. stop your bitching and complaining about equality already...things are much better than they were: be grateful for the 'progress.' at least you had the good sense to get out of dodge...and stay out. :loveya: LMAO to keep from CMAO.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #59
74. Thanks for proving the point...
Try living with some folks in black Africa, and THEN
come here and talk about how awful it is in America.


What does the African standard of living have to do with the racism encountered in America by American citizens? Though being of African descent does connect me to the continent, so do the Irish roots of a female Bostonian, yet no one, especially not someone like you, would suggest that she try living in Ireland before complaining about the glass ceiling her head bumps into in corporate America.

I like these threads. They bring out the racists and the people who truly want to know what's going on that they may not recognize.

I have some great quotes from Joshua Solomons, that illustrate the problem:
What I did was cross that color line and in essence look back at my own people, look back at white folks myself. And I got a chance to see what 'white racism' was. Not what it was like to be black... I've lived my life twenty years as a white person (laughter) that's the only thing I know. ...I knew the way things would have been, I knew the type of... 'prima facia' respect that you received by the color of your skin or of by, you know, white folks received - automatically. And when I didn't get that, ...it was quite disturbing .... when I talk to my friend Robert now, and, you know, I ask him sometimes how do you go through the day, I mean, every day was a nightmare for me. But I think what, you know, what Robert wanted to explain is he knows life no other way. He's grown up twenty one years like that, ...

Even when there are few to point to, it helps to know that there are white people who won't engage in "deny deny deny", but actually find out. Joshua did, and he sure didn't like it.
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. What you said
Great post
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. YES!
I DO think the Irish, for example, for very much victimized at a point in American history, and yes, many DID hear how they could always go back to Ireland. It was a common thing to say. I think one should think of how they can MAKE IT in America, rather than bitch about past racism that simply doesn't exist past the kind they also feel for whites. It's ridiculous how people know these things, but are afraid to talk about them. I will NOT be an enabler for black Americans who want more protections, preferences, etc. rather than having to stand without crutches.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #77
125. what a victim you are
so put upon by black americans looking for "protections"...from you apparently :eyes: you sound a lot like rush...
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linazelle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #77
164. We don't need enabling, just equality
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 10:01 PM by linazelle
I think one should think of how they can MAKE IT in America, rather than bitch about past racism that simply doesn't exist past the kind they also feel for whites. It's ridiculous how people know these things, but are afraid to talk about them. I will NOT be an enabler for black Americans who want more protections, preferences, etc. rather than having to stand without crutches.


I applaud you for your honesty and I agree with you in some ways. For instance, I'm not in favor of the free handouts that I see going to way too many blacks, I believe they are crippling.

I also think Bill Clinton did a good thing by starting the welfare to work programs which are weaning these types from government payrolls. I know of too many able-bodied young, black people who should be working and are receiving handouts. I have an aunt in Philadelphia who phoned my mother last week. Her son has never worked. He's in his forties.

The trouble is, that when whites see most blacks, they think most of us are like my cousin and they react accordingly by dismissing us, being condescending and in other ways. You say racism simply doesn't exist past the kind they we feel for whites. While we all have prejudices, racism goes much further. It is about power--the power to hire and fire and jail and educate. When these powers are exercised, blacks frequently lose out. Simple prejudices become overt racism when whites, or other races, make decisions about blacks based on prejudices and they often do.

Racism is alive and well in America. I live in Chicago, the most racially segregated city in Northern America. You go to stores and neighborhoods and you see the difference. I was in Wal-Mart yesterday in a black suburb. The floors were dirty, the shelves disorganized. I go to a white suburb and it's the total opposite. Why should I have to become an activist and write to complaikn to management to buy carpet cleaner? This is not just a Wal-Mart issue. I see the same differences in many large chain stores. It's disturbing to me.

When I was looking for a new home seven years ago, I drove by a house in a "white" neighborhood with an open house banner with the hourse posted during the time I was there. I rang the bell and stood there for a long time. Nobody ever answered the door.

In the many asian owned shops in black neighborhoods throughout the city, we experience another kind of racism. These people open up stores, take the money of the predominantly poor shoppers and they shoo them out of the stores. I went to a wig shop, just on a whim one day. I was prepared to buy two or three wigs but, because I don't wear wigs hardly ever, I tried on several. When I asked the asian woman for another style after trying on three wigs, she put me out of the store pointing to a sign saying customers could only try on three wigs!

I meet several times a year for dinner with a group called the Chicago Human Relations Foundation. They hold dinner meetings about four times a year on a designated date at varied locations around the city to discuss the kinds of issues I mentioned and general race relations in Chicago. At the last dinner there were white, black and asian americans. It's a good start toward having a face to face dialogue but it's also like preaching to the choir. Again, I don't know that those like the lady in the wig shop or the people who didn't open their door to sell their home will ever come around. They are not interested because things are OK for them.

What's it like to be black in America? I think the situations I mentioned convey how demeaning it can be. I know that it is even more demeaning for others who are a lot worse off than me.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
108. I think Dean has a speech for you.
It has a flag in it.
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1songbird Donating Member (642 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. There are some days when it sucks.
I was stopped in my neighborhood one night by a cop for supposedly speeding. I asked him if I could see the radar and he said no. He asked me why was I in the neighborhood. After I told him that I lived in there he had the unmittigated gall to say oh really. The stop was bull crap because he did not even give me a ticket. I should have reported him. Driving while black.
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. I can only tell you what it's like to be a white person with black people.
One thing I'm sure of is the fact that this is not an experience that many white people have. I live and work in an area with quite a few black people; some are good friends.

Anyways, on a few occassions, I've been the only white person with a group of 3 or 4 black people at a restaurant or a bar mainly full of white customers. Let me tell you, there's something different. I can't put my finger on it and I don't know if I think it because I'm conscious of the fact that I'm the only white person in the group or if it's something else.

I do remember going into a restaurant and having the hostess try and seat us at some odd back table; we're talking all the way across a virtually empty restaurant. We didn't take it, but I remember talking about it with my friends afterwards who said that happens a lot.

I'd say that there's a real n awkwardness on the part of white people when dealing with black people; often subtle but definitely there.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. I can't put my finger on it ...
Most Black people can, it's only that non-blacks normally dismiss it as paranoia, whining, hyper-sensitivity, etc.
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Okay. I can put my finger on it.
And it's not paranoia, whining, or hyper-sensitivity.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. don't ya love it when white folks weigh in on what it's like to be black
in america? :wtf:

i'm sure they got some special perspective the black folks are just somehow missing. :eyes:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Now, (spit, sputter, BWHAHAHAHA!!!) YOU BE NICE!!! ;-)
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
92. Yeah, it seems beside the whole point of this topic...
I just wish more of us would *listen* to each other. I think the original poster was expressing a genuine interest in listening to other peoples' experiences/perspectives. I wish there were more of us like that.

I'm not a huge fan of identity politics, at least the way they've been 90's style, having been on various sides of various debates (as a queer white woman of upper-middle-class background). I do have issues with the "it's a ____ thing, you wouldn't understand" meme that was bigger then, but still lives (I just extracted myself from a heated discussion on a mixed gay board where we--gay men, "queer" SM people in het relationships, and bi women with children, were basically playing "my group's oppression is a more righteous cause than yours; therefore MY PAIN is more important than yours, therefore you have no right to complain when I throw epithets in your direction..." Blergh). Basically, I think when one says "you just don't understand," whether it's justified or not (usually this comes out of frustration at the other person not listening, it's true)--it's a conversation-stopper. It's the equivalent of "never mind."

That said, obviously it's important to discuss these issues; racism certainly hasn't gone away, or sexism, or (hello??) homophobia. And I hate the phrase "victim mentality." There *is* such a thing, yes, and we're *all* capable of it. As with the joke about paranoia, (just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you)--the reality of "my oppression is bigger than yours" doesn't mean that people aren't also genuinely oppressed. (Not to mention that the right-wingers have long since surpassed the rest of us in the "poor me" department; but then, preaching to the converted, here...)

I do think that the "identity politics" thing is/was an important phase for people to go through, both on a personal and collective level. Maybe it isn't fair or reasonable to go "okay, we should all be over that by now!" Personally, I just think we can't afford it. Not now. Not under this government.

Short term, we need to focus on the primary goal of getting these fuckers out of office, first and foremost. ("We must all hang together or we will assuredly all hang separately). Long term? I think we (as Democrats, "progressives," what have you) need to find a new frame for all these issues, one which includes the "bigger picture" (economics, obviously, and more). We need, in short, a philosophical overhaul, root and branch.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #92
102. That's the problem...
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:58 PM by Isome
This issue is a part of what put them into power in the first place. It's the idea that people of color, the color black in this case, are merely hyper-sensitive and use past racism as a crutch. It's real. It exists. It hasn't dissipated, it's gotten sophisticated.

Do poor white people have it easy? Definitely not! Yet, they presume that poor people of color have it easier, have more opportunity, are given preferential treatment at their expense. So what did they do as a group, overwhelmingly? They voted against their best interest because * (and his brother Jeb in my state) made it clear to them that he too thought Black people had opportunities they didn't, and that he wouldn't stand for it.

Though we're still told that now is not the time to address our concerns, what did we do as a group, overwhelmingly. We voted for the Democrat. Still, we're not supposed to publicly talk about our experiences for fear of scaring away the same group who doesn't know which side of their bread is buttered? How long should we wait?

The AMA puts out a report saying that adjusting for insurance coverage & employment, Blacks get UNEQUAL medical care. They're given less aggressive life saving measures, they're not told of alternative treatments, and they're not prescribed adequate medication to manage pain.

The American College of Physicians has this to say:
Researchers investigating medical practice itself are documenting blatantly differential treatment of minority patients with common conditions. Such disparities mean that African Americans, Hispanic Americans and other minority groups suffer and die disproportionately from, among other things, cardiovascular disease, diabetes and several types of cancer.

Sociologist Yehudi Webster, at California State University-Los Angeles in the American Sociological Association argues in a newsletter that "race classifications can trigger the very attitudes and awareness that may underlie differential care by doctors."

Is this an issue that can wait, too? Until when? When will white people, gay or straight, rich or poor, be willing to hear about this issue (or predatory lending, or stolen land), and how will we benefit to wait until you are ready? Who designated you the keeper of the time clock?

Though the post has gotten long, it's important the people are made aware that waiting isn't an option any longer, nor will we continue to be 'shushed' because the general public can hear us. There's no shame in being discriminated against, the shame lies in being the discriminator. And, though being told to wait isn't new, what may be new is that this time... we won't.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #102
113. Dr. Charles Richard Drew
http://www.albany.edu/~cdsc/CDSCDREW.HTM

His work has saved countless lives. His death was due to the fruits of his labor being denied to him.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #113
155. Can anyone comment?
Or even acknowledge the loss?
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sujan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. question should be:
what is it like to be a first generation immigrant in America? (especially if you're from central and south americas, africa and middle east and asia)

IMO, these groups face far more discrimination than those born here, black or white or brown or yellow.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. I am a second generation immigrant from South Asia
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 06:32 PM by _Jumper_
I already know what it is like being perceived as an "immigrant" in America, so that is why I haven't inquired about that.

I think we face less day-to-day racism (since there are less stereotypes about "us") but "our groups" are more disliked than blacks IMO. At least they are still considered to be Americans.
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sujan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. that stereotype is plastered everywhere from the simpsons
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 06:33 PM by sujan
to the next sizzling episode of Joe moronaire.

Civil rights movement still has more high strides to achieve.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. What is it like to NOT be black in America?
That's what black people want to know.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. That is why, my dear loudnclear
I got the hell outta Dodge. Enquiring mind. Wanted to know.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
131. now this is an excellent question
one best answered, as my dear friend karenina did, by getting the hell out of dodge. in fact...it seems the only way to answer this question. i found the answer in italy, some 25 years ago.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
29. I just came back from the gym ... and noticed this topic...
I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the Joshua Solomons interview link in the other thread. ... does it?

In the meantime here are some experiences from my past that shape my attitudes today:
  • As a young kid, 10 or 11 y/o, I was in a church group called AWANA. During some type of game involving physical agility, a girl named Patty made a move that was new to me. An older girl, who was acting as a referee, let it go. Thinking it must be allowed, I repeated the same thing when I took my turn, it made things easier. The older girl proceeded to call me out, and when she saw the look on my face she said, "Oh' don't go crying about it because you're Black!"

    That was the furthest thing from my mind, but after she said it, I realized that it should have been foremost on my mind. Being a military brat, I was accustomed to being the only ONE, and was blissfully unaware of the difficulties some of us faced outside the relatively comfortable confines of Air Force bases. That stuck with me all these years because it was the end of my innocence, and my first experience with the pre-emptive strike that too many white people use to deflect attention from their behavior.

  • Junior high school dance... I'm new in town. I met a girl I thought was the coolest, Heidi Kline. We meet at the door and she leans in all close & chummy and says, "All the n****** love me because I dance like them." Oooooof... right in the gut that one! What a welcome to the new south.

  • Miami1994... looking for an apartment. Turned down by the two I wanted the most, even though I'd jumped through all the hoops, met the criteria and had the moolah. Six months later I read in the paper that those same two apartment complexes were fined big bucks for discriminatory leasing. As it turns out, project Hope I believe, sent testers to the complexes, on separate ocassions and they always refused the non-white applicant, despite the equal credit histories, etc.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. yes
I posted this because of the link you posted in the other thread.

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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
57. Wow. I guess I should know these things happen.
I've had a couple of (ex) friends that I've gotten into dustups with over their, IMO, hugely racist language. Let me add that it wasn't in front of any Black person, just a group of White middle, and lower middle, class guys in their 20's.

I suppose if it got me that wound up it must really be damaging to someone that really has a stake in it.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Really damaging! And, guess what...
We have to go on. We replay the situation over in our heads, and sometimes change the outcome so that we come out on top, we laugh about it, scream about, and maybe even cry about it. Then, we get up the next morning and prepare to face it again in one form or another.

Now the next time you hear about hypertension running rampant in the Black community, you'll understand why. It's stressful.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #61
99. I can believe it.
Especially layered on top of the general level of stress Americans seem to have in general, which is not inconsiderable.

My best friend is Irish, and he's mentioned a couple of times now that there seems to be a kind of undercurrent of rage he's noticed here. He *says* he doesn't get that feeling in most of Europe; anyway, not like here. He's said that he noticed the anger from/in a number of Black people in particular, but he also sees it as a widespread, general thing. (He's been here since pre-Bush, BTW, and used to say the same dot of thing back then). It's useful to have the outsider's perspective. I wonder what it's about.

Sometimes I think that the worst aspect of being a minority in contemporary America--Black certainly, but also female, (which I can speak to from experience), gay (ditto), poor, for sure--is the weird schizy thing we have. There's such a huge gap between the messages we get (anyone can make it if they JUST WORK HARD ENOUGH! there *is no* discrimination anymore! freedom and equal opportunity for everybody! a chicken in every pot! a 401K plan in every pension! you, too, can have the life of a rich, thin, blonde supermodel if you just TRY HARDER, etc., ad nauseum) and the reality, which gets bleaker every day. Shit, who wouldn't be enraged? It's either that or suicidal depression. or some kind-of-reality-blocker (drugs, TV, whatever). or outright insanity. for a lot of people, anyway.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #99
114. Great posts, Belle!
:toast:
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
88. :-/
I met a girl I thought was the coolest, Heidi Kline. We meet at the door and she leans in all close & chummy and says, "All the n****** love me because I dance like them." Oooooof... right in the gut that one! What a welcome to the new south.

I think you are over-reacting to the word 'nigger.' It's just a word, after all, and just because people use it doesn't mean they are racist or insensitive. Politicians should use the word in talking to the South, because it will appeal to Southerners who also use the word, and who need health insurance and jobs just like the rest of us. As long as Democrats exclude people who use the word 'nigger,' they will lose in the South. The word is simply part of Southern heritage, and anyone who uses it is celebrating their past, not defaming a race of people. Get over it! </sarcasm>
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. I purposely didn't type it out... it's offensive to even read...
Why would you? Did you get a little thrill in doing it? I suspect you did, even if you say you didn't.

Anyone who would use it to describe my ethnicity, whether they are smiling or frowning, is wrong and probably a bigot, and not above engaging in racism.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #90
94. I type it out because I dislike things like
f$%^ and so on. Everyone knows what was meant anyway. I remember reading Huckleberry Finn as a kid, and in my copy, Jim became 'N----- Jim.' It looked stupid, and at the time I had no idea what N----- was supposed to be.

Thrill? It doesn't thrill me. Personally, it's one of the few 'fighting words' I will respond to, but seeing it in print doesn't arouse anything at all, unless it's being used in an inflammatory way, which I hope I didn't do.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. I know you were being sarcastic, Billy, and we don't hold it against you
Some of us have stopped writing it out as to be honest with you, some of us consider it worse than fuck, shit or damn or whatever.

Every now and then I type it out when you want to make a very strong point, but I still feel funny doing it. It's amazing when I think of it since growing up, we all called each other that in an affectionate way. Also a lot in a negative way too. It was the tone of voice and context of the conversation that told you which.

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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #98
103. I know you were being sarcastic, Billy
You knew... I didn't. I didn't read past the word. I was blinded by its glare.



Now, I owe Billy an apology. My sincerest apology to you!

I really didn't read the post. That word jumped out and I stopped there. That's just how bad it is. We never used it growing up. We weren't allowed to in our house. I'm glad.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #90
104. I hate the hypocrisy
I've typed it out once or twice myself, because as a white person, it just makes me nuts that white people say the "n" word in public company, all politically correct, and then go home and use the real word behind closed doors. Not all white people, but enough, and certainly when they're pissed or want to make some racist point. So when I really want to confront that bullshit, I type it out.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #88
132. You had me going there for a minute
Until I got that you were being sarcastic, I was really upset by what you were saying. But Of course I completely agree with you about the idiotic confederate flag statement of a certain candidate.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
33. Just one simple rule to remember: If you're black, brown, beige, female

If you do ten times as much, ten times better, while looking ten times as good, smiling ten times as big and making it look ten times as easy, then you will be considered by almost everyone to be fully adequate and damn near on a par with a white male.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. From the female perspective
I find this description to be hauntingly accurate. And I work for family!
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Kathy in Cambridge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. I think it was Dorothy Parker who said:
Whatever a woman does she has to do twcie as well as a man to be thought of as half as good. Fortunately, this is not difficult."

I don't agree with the last sentence but the first sentence pretty much sums up what you're saying!

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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
48. I have NO IDEA! Being a white male and all.
I do know that I've lived in some of the "whitest" areas in America and at times rarely come in contact (Outside of work) with Black people. This is probably not such a "good" thing either. I live in SW Florida now and while there is a Black population it's simply not that big and, yes, they're somewhat geographically isolated.

My HS graduating class, in N. Colorado had two, yes two, black kids in it.

As a much younger child, elementary school, I had a couple of very close black friends (Tony & James) but since then I really haven't, so all I could do is assume...

This is disturbing to me.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. The small things really piss us off too, like
how white people can't seem to stand in line behind a black person. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a line and a white person, instead of taking his/her place behind me, steps right the fuck up beside me. When the clerk turns around, he/she always looks at the white person and presumes that he/she is next. Drives me fucking bananas. I used to not say anything, now I go off.

Here's another one. White people speeding up in their cars to beat you walking across a crosswalk. It's funny whenever I walk with a white person. They have no fear of stepping into a crosswalk. Cars screech hitting breaks to stop for them. Blacks look both ways several times and don't even think of entering a crosswalk unless there are no cars near. Cars speed up to beat them.

Here's another one. I'm a fucking lawyer wearing a two thousand dollar suit. Can't catch a goddamn cab. If a white person comes out to hail a cab, while I'm already there, I have to go to another fucking corner.

I could point to a lot of other ones, being followed in stores, etc. The big things piss us off, but its the small things that drive you fucking nuts.

The thing is, I don't think people intentionally do these things. Its so fucking ingrained in american society that white skin means so much more that people don't even know they're doing it. Drives you fucking nuts.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Standing in line...
I thought it was just me, with my self-diagnosed germ phobia; I could never figure out why people stood so close to me in line and had no respect for the "personal space" rule.

My face cannot hide my feelings, so when I feel (or gawwd forbid SMELL) people breathing down my neck because they're so close, normally not directly behind, but to the side & behind I just start to scowl! *lol* Then I make it a point to look over, share the scowl, and dramatically move farther to the opposite side of them. *sigh*
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Oh no, it's definitely not you. This is an alltime one. A lot of white
people just refuse to stand in line behind a black person. They are more important you know. And don't let it be a long line. Jeeezuz. They walk right up front. Too fucking important to wait that long.

What really pisses me off are the ones who, when the clerk assumes they are next, go right ahead and take advantage of it. Then there's the polite ones who ask, "are you in line?" No, I'm just fucking standing here for my health cause I got nothing else to do. Arrrrrgh!! I gotta stop, don't get me started. My blood pressure goes up.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Sounds like
You are just angry at white people. If anyone posted here critical of BLACK people in such a general way they would (rightfully so) be called a racist. This kind of "poor me, I'm a victim" crap should stop. Welcome to the 21st century! I'm for a CLASS-BASED politics and opposed to any kind of RACE-BASED politics.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Funny
I didn't read a "poor me" attitude into either of their posts. I read anger and frustration.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Wait a minute. I'm angry at idiot conservatives, so what!
"Welcome to the 21st century! I'm for a CLASS-BASED politics and opposed to any kind of RACE-BASED politics."

So am I but, just a nit-pick, they are somewhat related :-)
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. I think a lot of white people are made very uncomfortable

When questions like this one are answered with honesty and thoughfulness.

Most of them probably don't realize that they really do think that their purchase, their laundry, are more important than that of the person of color, and so naturally if it is mentioned, the response will be something to the effect of "oh you are just angry at/don't like white people."

What white people want to hear is that racism is a thing of the past, and that all people of color are grateful for every crumb that they have been so generously given by the Race Bountiful.

The days of "Yessuh, Massa, thankee Massah" are not coming back, and while it is understandable that this is easier for whites to accept intellectually than internalize emotionally, it will be for their own benefit as much as for the Majority World's if they go ahead and flip that calendar!
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
95. self deleted
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:10 PM by WillyBrandt
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #60
119. You just sound "angry" to me. And like a racist.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
156. you can't just look at class in a race-based society
such as this one. i know...it's all in the past...but what a past!!! when black men, in particular, were hung in trees while people had picnics a scant 60 years ago, class alone does nothing to address that reality. and while i'm at it, how is it that the rw has so successfully exploited class issues...does that have something to do with race?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. One July 4th waiting for the fireworks
the kids decided they HAD to have snow cones. We stood in line at the vendor and AFTER I ordered a white man stepped in front of me and gave his. The woman ignored me and served him first. I wanted to walk away but the kids wanted snow cones. I'd been out of the states for several years then and it was a VIVID reminder to me of why I left.

That ONGOING SHIT can REALLY make you crazy, eh? Maybe we're "just too sensitive." ;-)
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #66
73. Could it have just been a rude PERSON?
Could it have just been a RUDE person who would have done that no matter what color you are? This thinking is ridiculous. White people experience this as well, blacks are not the only ones who have people cut in line. :eyes: It just gets sillier and sillier. YES, I would say you are "too sensitive" because when you LOOK for racism under every rock, you'll find it! Have you ever considered that you use "racism" as an excuse for things that happen all the time to white people, but just can't use race as a reason? You were most probably the victim of a rude person - not a victim because of your race.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. Hey listen up guy...
Could you just be our personal therapist and interpret our reality for us? You'd be a really big help. I mean really, we're adults and everything, but obviously we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground.

Until this evening, we had no idea that we were too sensitive. I don't know how we made it this far in life w/out your wisdom. Solomon being a practicing attorney is a fluke; but now that you've weighed in with your pearls of wisdom, he'll really be successful! Karenina has been a very good parent, but here you come so that now she can be a GREAT parent. As for me... oh' boy, my life is just going to be filled to the brim with abundance now that you've shown us the light and the way! Thank you ever so much.

While you're at it, could you tell Vernon Jordan that his police stop for DWB (driving while black) is all in his head. You know how sensitive we are. Thanks buddy... you're the greatest!




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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Sharpton has taught you well. <eom>
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #81
130. rush has taught you well eom
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #73
134. I have to say, speaking as a middle aged white suburban woman,
you are embarrasing me, shush. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are either listening to Rush or you are listening to someone who is listening to Rush.
Almost everything you have said is wrong and could easily be spoken by a member of a white identity group member. Doesn't that give you pause at all?
Lets assume for a moment that you are actually a democrat (or something besides a repug or libertarian)who is a member of a union. What would you say to the people who insist that unions are no longer nessesary? If you are a member of the democratic party you might want to think a bit about what solidarity means.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. Thanks Cheswick!
:hi: You know, I've never, ever, even once had to look under a rock to find racism. Mostly it seems to find me! Maybe I need to find some better hiding places! :silly:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #73
137. could be...if it didn't happen: ALL THE TIME!
or maybe we just run into that SAME rude person at different establishments all around the country :eyes:
it's the insidious little stuff that adds up.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
89. Ahhh. Karenina!
How you doing darlin'. :loveya:
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #49
93. Supposedly, it's the accumulation of small things...
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:07 PM by belle
that really gets you (one) down. I forget where I read this; some psych article, I think. But that the "drip, drip drip" of the sort of thing you and others mention (the cab business and the being followed in stores, etc.) ultimately has at least as much, if not more, of an impact than one big, but isolated, incident. Supposedly. Of course, if you have the constant small irritating shit *and* big traumatizing incidents, well...

When you "go off" at someone stepping up beside you in line, what do you say, BTW? Curious.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. Thanks for your post. You said it much better than I could.
The drip drip drip is very serious. It's worse than the in your face type because that's easier to deal with.

When I said I go off, I guess it sounded like I go nuts. What I do is, look at the other person and say "no you don't, not this time, I'm tired of this, you know I was here first, why would you do that"? To their credit, most of them apologize, but tell that little "white" lie, "I'm sorry I didn't see you". Of course for some it's not a little lie. I honestly believe that the shit is so ingrained, they really don't "see" us sometime.

When the line is long though, it's clear to me that a lie is being told.

And to economic justice who slinked away, believe me, we don't go looking for racism under every rock. We usually don't think of it until it's pushed in your face. Unfortunately it happens a lot.
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economic justice Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
79. For the record
I knew how I feel would stir up some feelings and I think it's sad and shows how much anger too many black Americans have toward white people. I don't believe in it. I used to, but haven't in over ten years. I have always fought alongside white people as an equal and can honestly say that when you're not always looking for racism, you'll rarely find it. Yes. I am an African-American. I am PROUD of my heritage and PROUD to be a Democrat. I am TIRED of the Al Sharpton types being the voice for our community. He is a professional race baiter and offers little else. He has backed off of that for his campaign, but anyone who has followed Reverend Al for any time at all knows he is the walking definition of RACIST.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. Hi buddy... here's some economic justice you could address...
You know, since you're so much smarter and more grounded in reality than us whiners.

In a 1998 study comparing black and white neighborhoods in New York with similar economic characteristics, 13 percent of the loans in the white neighborhood came from subprime lenders, compared with 51 percent of those in the black neighborhoods.


Listen there has been this HUGE brouhaha about predatory lending, if you could just get in there and tell this idiots that Black folks just want to be victims, it would help us tremendously. Thanks! If anyone can do it... you can! What a great person you are... just what this country needs more of... astute, realistic... mah-vah-lous!
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
84. Oh' wait ... here's more on predatory lending
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 10:05 PM by Isome
The drive to nail predatory lenders gained steam in October when Household International agreed to pay nearly $500 million to low income homeowners in 19 states and Washington D.C. to settle charges that it engaged in illicit lending and foreclosure practices. Housing activists won more victories when the Los Angeles City Council recently passed a tough ordinance that gives home buyers greater protection from lending home foreclosures by rip-off lenders. New York City, Oakland, and Philadelphia have also passed similar laws.

.::.Link to Alternet.::.

Don't forget, with a name like yours, I know you're interested in justice and these cities must be full of oversensitive Black people who WANT to be a victim. Help us... oh' please help us!


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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. LOL. You really make me laugh. You're the only one stirred up by what
you say. You're pretty funny. You make so many assumptions and read so much into everything. We are not angry at white people. We wake up everyday to this shit. We know a lot of white people don't know what they do. I said it was unintentional and we know that. We can deal with the intentional shit. That's easy. And by the way, in case you didn't notice, even intentional shit still goes on.

I wonder if you're one of the fools who think we're better off for having been dragged over here and subjected to this shit? Wake up. Don't you even realize that the war on terrorism is about white supremacy? Trouble over the war on terror is what brought you here to DU isn't it? Maybe you'll learn something here before you go.

And by the way, don't talk to me about victimhood. I went from the ghetto to Ivy League and beyond. Never played the vicim. But that hasn't blinded me to the way this system works.


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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #86
117. Hmmmm...
EJ has made so many sterling, assumption-riddled assertions, would I be off-base to question his/her self-ID? If THAT is honest, all I can say is, "MEINE FRESSE!"

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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #117
120. No Karenina, you're not off base. I noticed the same thing but I was
trying to be nice about it. I think a little "white" lie was told in one of EJ's posts and you know what I'm talking about.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. I think someone deserves a BUCKY award!
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 10:21 PM by Isome
Come on... who wants a Bucky? Don't be shy! *big cheesey smile* Come and get your Bucky... come onnnn!!!

While you're spinning and making dubious assertions, don't forget the predatory lending that followed those Black folks out to the suburbs. I have two stories of my own, but I'd just be whining and trying to be a victim.

Here's some more on economic justice, I hope you'll help them see the right way to think:
For generations, black families passed down the tales in uneasy whispers: "They stole our land."

These were family secrets shared after the children fell asleep, after neighbors turned down the lamps - old stories locked in fear and shame.

Some of those whispered bits of oral history, it turns out, are true.

In an 18-month investigation, The Associated Press documented a pattern in which black Americans were cheated out of their land or driven from it through intimidation, violence and even murder.

In some cases, government officials approved the land takings; in others, they took part in them. The earliest occurred before the Civil War; others are being litigated today.

Some of the land taken from black families has become a country club in Virginia, oil fields in Mississippi, a major-league baseball spring training facility in Florida.

The United States has a long history of bitter, often violent land disputes, from claim jumping in the gold fields to range wars in the old West to broken treaties with American Indians. Poor white landowners, too, were sometimes treated unfairly, pressured to sell out at rock-bottom prices by railroads and lumber and mining companies.

The fate of black landowners has been an overlooked part of
this story.

The AP - in an investigation that included interviews with more than 1,000 people and the examination of tens of thousands of public records in county courthouses and state and federal archives - documented 107 land takings in 13 Southern and border states.

In those cases alone, 406 black landowners lost more than 24,000 acres of farm and timber land plus 85 smaller properties, including stores and city lots. Today, virtually all of this property, valued at tens of millions of dollars, is owned by whites or by corporations.

Properties taken from blacks were often small - a 40-acre farm, a general store, a modest house. But the losses were devastating to families struggling to overcome the legacy of slavery. In the agrarian South, landownership was the ladder to respect and prosperity - the means to building economic security and passing wealth on to the next generation. When black families lost their land, they lost all of this.


.::.Link.::.

I'm sure you can let them know they're just whining!!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #79
126. what about YOUR anger?
damn...aren't you done projecting...YET? you really should take a look int he mirror.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
85. My elementary school gym class had one black kid in the class.
They gym teacher got a perverse pleasure out of telling all the kids to pair up and then watch nobody pick the one black kid. There was one white kid in the class who figured out what was going on very early and picked that black kid out that first time, and then picked him every time. It fucked up that gym teachers sadistic plan and for the rest of elementary school that gym teacher took out his race hatred on both the black kid and the white kid.

That was one of the most fucked up things I've witnessed in my life.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #85
118. Ahhh, school daze...
I was the only dark-skinned student in any of my classes from 2nd grade till my senior year in high school. Gives one a rather unique perspective. Music and mathematics were ALWAYS my idea of fun. I took a computer course along with Trigonometry. Trig was easy, so I made a challenge to myself to write a program that would solve a certain type of problem. Successful, I handed in the print-out to the teacher. She became furious, saying I didn't do the work. Being mouthy and uppity I replied that what I didn't do was the calculations. What I DID do was figure out a way to make a machine understand the problem. (She was well acquainted with my skills in handling numbers in my head). She was SO MAD there was FOAM in the corners of her mouth and she immediately called a pop quiz. I wasn't the very first one finished... she waited then whipped the paper from my desk. WHADDYA KNOW, 10 problems, 10 correct answers. She assigned the class extra homework...

Some of my classmates were angry at me, although the majority were outraged at what they'd just witnessed. I cannot descibe how I felt...
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. Here's one of my School Daze.
Of course it didn't start happening until I went to college and law school because as I said earlier, I grew up in a segregated public school system.

When I was in law school there were a number of things that happened. For example in evidence class, I would raise my hand, make a point, and the professor would totally overlook it. Another student would repeat what I said, and then all of a sudden, to the professor, it became a brilliant point. I let this happen about four or five times during the semester when one day, I interrupted the professor and asked him, "how come when I say it, it means nothing to you, but then when a white student says it, you recognize it as a good point?" He denied that he was doing it. To my utter shock and surprise, the entire class spoke and said yes he was doing it. They noticed it too. For the rest of the semester when he gave a lecture he would refer to certain points as "Solomon's" (not my real name) theory.

In tax class, the professor gave a question on the exam that asked us to examine the tax consequences of the slave Kunta Kinte having half of his foot chopped off after trying to escape. All of the blacks in the class (and there weren't many) walked out of that exam. When we went to the dean about it, it made some stupid remark about "affirmative action" people as though we were not real students. I pointed out to him that I had been a straight a student at Brown University and so was not an "affirmative action" person.

Now again I will say that none of these things were intentional on the part of the professors. (At least I believe so). But prejudice is so ingrained in american society that most people don't realize it. My favorite phrase in this regard is that fish don't see the water that they swim in. They think they flying through the air.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
91. Day to day?
One of my stories: visiting an ex-girlfriend, who rented out a cottage in the back of her house to a lowlife. During the visit, I get into a fight with the lowlife, and beat him up pretty badly -- but there were about 6 witnesses, who all confirmed that this guy started the fight, and insisted on continuing even when I refrained from hurting him too badly. I call the cops and an ambulance, the cops come and ... he goes to the hospital, I go to jail.

I get out, see the police report, and despite the witnesses, the cop made it look like I started the fight, said I "pursued the victim and continued assaulting him despite his submission,' blah blah blah. My friends, both white and black, felt certain my arrest was racially motivated; it wasn't until I saw that report that I agreed with them: it was a travesty. I was teaching as an associate prof at a university at the time, but it was summer and I wasn't teaching any classes, so the cop classified me in the police report as 'an unemployed laborer,' and some other code words and phrases that basically identified me as scum. Of course, I take it to court, and it turns out the other guy had a long criminal record including several convictions for violent crimes. The judge takes a look at his record, my record (not even a traffic ticket), sees the list of witnesses, and immediately asks the prosecutor if she wants to drop the case, which she does, with this shit-eating look on her face.

Haven't trusted a cop since. Lots of black people don't, for reasons just like mine. Want to know what it's like? Imagine not being able to trust the people who are charged with 'enforcing the law.' I see a cop, and I see someone who is a potential enemy, which means I have to be responsible for protecting myself and mine to a greater degree than other people -- yet if I 'cross the line' in protecting myself, I will be treated more harshly than other people would. Just one of the many Catch-22s.
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Solomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #91
100. Don't even get me started on the cop thing.
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:40 PM by Solomon
I grew up in a segregated area. No whites. I was amazed when I went to college with whites and learned that they had a totally different view and perspective on policemen. It truly blew my mind. Up until then, I had only looked at cops as the "enemy". They were always rousting us, threatening us, taking our beer, arresting us, etc., giving us a hard time. Just fucking with us in general.

When I saw how white people looked at cops it really blew my mind. 180 degree difference.

You know in the old days, they would plant a gun on a black guy if they shot him to justify it. Now a days they don't even bother to do that. All they have to say is "he had a cell phone", or "he had a wallet", and that's perfect justification for shooting the poor fucker.

Since I'm on it, let me get this off my chest. I've seen so many cases where the cops have shot black guys and gotten away with it. Nobody seems to have a problem with that. It's enerally "understood" that if the cop shot a black guy, the guy must have asked for it in some way. Even when he was naked from the waist up and handcuffed behind his back. (I shit you not - a guy was shot some 42 times this way, mostly in the back). There was even one case where a black cop came home and was shot to death by a white cop in his own house who thought the black cop was a burglar, even though the guy put up bis hands and identified himself as a cop. (Truly I shit you not)

Now, let's go over to the white criminals. It drives me nuts that in cases where the white guy is known to be armed and dangerous, the cops manage to arrest the guy without shooting him. I've seen cases where white criminals have actually used their guns, but during the chase, even though the cops KNOW THE GUY HAS A FUCKING GUN, not a wallet, not a cell phone, nonetheless, they manage to arrest the guy without shooting him. The only time the white criminal gets shot is if he's stupid enough to engage in a shootout with the police which is extremely rare, or fucking shoots himself. Otherwise, arrest with no incident. Now this wouldn't bother me at all and is the way things should be, BUT FOR THE FACT THAT THEY BLAST THE HELL OUT OF BLACK SUSPECTS WHO ARE NOT ARMED AT ALL. Perhaps the skin color is the deadly weapon, or more precisely, its the sperm that is the deadly weapon. At half a million black sperm every cum, killing a black guy gets rid of billions of the wrong kind of sperm.


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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #100
149. Lookee what was going on in Seattle...
This Green River killer, Mr. Ridgway, pleads guilty for killing 48 women, knowing that, some being prostitutes, figure no one would be looking for them.

I wondered if had Ridgway not been a white male, would the justice system had negotiated with him so leniently?
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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
101. I feel it more on the job....
Something simple like someone who does not know me or the person next to me, and has a technical question, 9 out of 10 times, they will ask my white colleague. Subtle things like that can get to you but I am mature enough now to understand the brainwashing in America and no longer allow it to bug me.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #101
110. If you're Black working in corporate America, you've seen this.
If you're not, it'll be new to you, but it will give you insight into a reality you may prefer not to acknowledge.

20 Ways to Know You are BLACK in the Corporate World

  1. A co-worker sees you and several black colleagues at a casual lunch. Back at the office he/she later asks, "What was that meeting all about?"

  2. You arrive at work on time, as usual. Your boss, making her rounds, peeks in and remarks with surprise, "Oh, you're here!"

  3. A colleague says with a broad smile, "You know, I really like you. When I see you, I don't see color. I don't think of you as black."

  4. After a staff meeting, your boss suggests, "you need to work at making others more comfortable with you . . . why don't you smile more often?"

  5. You tell your manager about a problem you are having and the response you get is "You've got to be exaggerating! I find that hard to believe."

  6. You are told you are "rough around the edges" despite your completion of many professional development programs and it is suggested you emulate the behavior of a white colleague.

  7. You continue to get more responsibility, but no authority.

  8. You are being recognized at a company banquet. As you approach the stage to receive your company's highest achievement award, your corporation's top executive exclaims, "Yo homeboy, congratulations!"

  9. You arrive at an offsite business retreat dressed in business casual attire. Your white co-workers approach and ask why you are always so dressed up.

  10. You are told you are decreasing your effectiveness with your aggressive style, while a non-black peer with the same style is lauded as "assertive" and a "go-getter".

  11. You are frequently asked why you change your hairstyle so often.

  12. Your first name is arbitrarily shortened to one or two syllables without your permission because they cannot pronounce it properly. (The worst: being asked the meaning of your name; We never ask them what "John" means!)

  13. You are asked every summer if black people tan.

  14. After a coworker returns from a weekend in the sun, they run to you on Monday morning and extend their arms to touch yours and say, "hey I'm darker than you."

  15. Walking through the hall with colleagues, you exchange greetings with two other blacks you pass along the way. Your colleague says in amazement, "My you know so many people."

  16. You are told your attitude is affecting others. You are asked to "lighten up, not be so serious about the work. Smile and laugh more often, to make others more comfortable working with you."

  17. At times you must "dumb down" to appear dependent, unable and unaware, so that your manager and peers can feel they are helping you, and therefore more comfortable.

  18. You have to perform at 250% just to stay even.

  19. You have to document everything. You've learned the hard way.

  20. When you were young you assumed that all that was required of you was to work hard and get the job done.


drip... drip... drip...
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #110
123. BINGO!!!
WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

That is definitely a "keeper." More often than not, you just have to laugh through the pain!!!

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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #110
129. "the gang's all here!"
what a co-worker used to say every time she passed by two or more black people talking together at work. one day, i asked her "what do you mean when you say "the gang's all here?" she got all flustered...and i said "no, really...what exactly are you saying?" i told her she seemed to only use that statement when two or more black employees were gathered, but never when other co-workers were talking. she said i was being sensitive, and i said "i just asked you a question...one you didn't answer, btw: it seems you are the one who is being too sensitive." she didn't say it again after that :shrug:
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #129
144. It's the unspoken, unwritten rule.
You're not allowed to be too friendly with those who look like you, or you'll be suspected of 1) plotting something, 2) practicing self-segregation, or 3) goofing off. Now you can laugh & talk up a storm with your other co-workers, but don't get too close to those of your own ethnicity.

Ain't it funny; sometimes we are aloof with each other to preclude any of the accusations above. When I notice it, I make it my damn job to get friendly and bring them out of their bag!!
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #144
150. oh brother...do i know what you mean
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 04:25 PM by noiretblu
in my graduate program, i took a creativity course. it was online, so we had these cyberrooms where each student could post his/her work. so...i posted a poem i was working on...a poem about my great-grandmother's struggle with her mixed racial hertitage. it was a poem from her perspective as a very white-looking woman who admonished her very black-looking great-granchildren to "never trust the white man." silly me...i thought graduate-level folk would grasp the irony, poignancy, and tragedy of the oft-repeated admonishment from this blonde-haired, blue-eyed "one drop" woman to "never trust the white man," as i did.
but the problem was...the other black person in the program responded in understanding...and then, IT WAS ON!!!!
the professor (bless him) felt the need to intervene after the discussion devolved to a war to say: YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO 'OBJECT' TO SOMEONE'S VERSION OF THEIR LIFE EXPERIENCE!!!!!
a simple concept...still, yet some continue to persist in the belief that even YOUR life, and all the experiences therein, are under THEIR CONTROL, and therefore, their interpretation of your life always trumps your intrepretation of your life.

as to self-segregation, it doesn't seem to be a problem when in reverse...it is considered "normal."
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Insider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
106. a tale of two briefings
short version:
first day of freshman registration at a prominent engineering school (in 1980), i listened to the dean go on and on about how those in attendance were the cream of the crop, ready for the world. found out later that i was supposed to be in the briefing for students attending the minority engineering 'prep' course (a summer program to help boost minority success in engineering school). i went because it was a free summer program, not because i was not prepared at the academy i graduated from.

anyway, he met that group in the afternoon. he barely stood and raised his hand when introduced. period. i couldn't believe he had nothing to say to us. as far as i know, i was the only person in both sessions. now i don't claim to know why he didn't say anything. i just know for a fact that he said nothing to us minority prep students (fully 10% of the total class).
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
107. Ass-u-me
It's the stupid-@$$ assumptions that if you are black, that you couldn't possibly be doing certain things, like what happened to me a few months back:

I am taking a graduate level engineering course in a distance program. One of my classes required a proctored exam at a local community college.

Arrived at the testing site 45 minutes early, paid my fee at the registrar's office, and announced my arrival at the exam center receptionist's desk to take the exam from ABC university.

There were a couple of my classmates already admitted and seated, but the receptionist said, but no you need an XYZ pass from the registrar. I looked at her and said, no I am here to take the ABC university test, but was still sent back to the registrar's office.

I walk back to the registrars office and tell them -- look I told the receptionist I was here to take an exam from ABC university but am told I need an XYZ pass.

The registrar's desk clerk said, no you didn't need the XYZ pass...and called back the receptionist telling her of the error, and I walked back to the exam center. Instead of the 45 minutes I had ahead, I got into the exam center 10 minutes late....barely finished the exam....

The XYZ pass was only for the community college students.

You are damned sure I gave that receptionist a look as I walked into the exam that said yes, lady, black people can study for a master's degree in engineering, how dare you assume otherwise.....

Now made it a point to get the school's ID, but ya know these people in authority might assume it was faked....Oh well!


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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. It's the drip... drip... drip... referred to earlier in the thread...
It makes you wanna' holler, throw up both your hands. *lol*
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #107
115. Assumptions
Well, some of that even applies here. I get bothered when people here expect all blacks to be Democrats or liberal or think this or do that.

I don't agree with conservative blacks, but I don't think they are race traitors either. I think they have made choices.

African-Americans are like any other group. We have smart ones, stupid ones, rich ones (not enough), poor ones (too high a percentage), liberal and conservative ones. To assume otherwise is to make a mistake.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #115
127. great post, muddleoftheroad
those ASSumptions are a pain in the ASS :D
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #127
160. Thanks
I wish more people here looked at us as individuals and not just a voting bloc.
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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
116. Basketball - This is a good one......
I arrived here from the Caribbean, never played basketball in my life, grew up playing soccer and cricket.

First year in an American high school, physical education or recreation, whatever you call it, class of 25, two teams are being selected for a basketball scrimmage, I am the only black guy there, guess who is picked first? That was my introduction to being black in America as I never thought of my skin color growing up in the Caribbean. Needless to say, I looked like a total idiot on the court, did not know where to run, what to do, just ran around in circles. :crazy:
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #116
136. hazarding a guess...
are you from trinidad? :hi:
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doubles Donating Member (357 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #136
142. Trini to de bone, how did you know?
:toast:
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
128. was talking two to 30ish black women yesterday
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 12:32 PM by noiretblu
who sounded just like members of the KKK. they were doing the standard "what's wrong with black people" speech, but when i asked them if ANY of what they said applied to them...or course it did not. it seems they were raised with "values" and so on, that the rest of us black folk (except of course a select few...i think they included me) don't have. when i asked them if some of the stuff they were talking about was more a function of CLASS than race, since both of them were from relatively privleged backgrounds, a light (albeit, a dim one) :think: seemed to sink through all their self-hatred. ahh yes...i call it self-hatred. it's akin to a white person telling me how different i am from "those other black people"...it's believing that you are so different, and so unique from "those others."
another friend, a 60ish black woman who is far too fond of the "n" word for my tastes, sent me a tasteless list of "dos and don'ts for black people" the other day. i found it offensive as hell...so i asked her if she would still think it was funny if it was written by david duke instead of a black person (that, of course, was the assumption). she wasn't as amused by it after i pointed out how stereotypical and offensive it was to me.
my annoyance of late: black people who sound like charter members of the KKK.
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SmokeyBlues Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #128
147. And SmokeyBlues makes two!
Like you, I fail to see 'humor' in many of those '20 Ways to Perpetuate the Myth of Black Non-Intelligence and Racial Inferiority' lists that find their way to my email from time to time. If I know the person, I will politely tell him or her to stop sending me email of that sort because I am offended by the content and do not wish to participate in the further debasement of people of African descent as a whole.

As a result, I've been called "uptight" and accused of lacking a "healthy sense of humor"; that is, the ability to laugh heartily at not-so-veiled insults aimed at myself and others who share my ethnicity. My typical reply to my detractors: come back after you've finished processing (it's oh so obvious that they are still largely unprocessed) and maybe we can have a mutually beneficial and instructive conversation.

I'm pleased to report that I have not received one of those lists in about a year now.



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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #147
159. amazingly...one of these women was talking about "passing"
because her mother "passed" as white. but, she didn't think that had anything to do with her mother's success...so i asked her WHY her mother "passed"...if it had nothing to do with her success. she said her mother passed to get into the best schools...again i asked her if that had anything to do with her mother's success. no...apparently, her mother's "passing" as white was not a factor at all. which still begs the question (at least in my mind): why did she "pass," if passing as white wasn't a benefit to her? well...it was, sort of, but of course, she had those "values" in addition to being able to pass for white, and those "values" were apparently more important. which again begs the question: why did she pass for white, if it was those "values" that really contributed to her success? :crazy: not that i discount the role of values...but obviously, if they were enough...she wouldn't have "passed" :eyes: it's kinda sad...the length some will go to to disassociate themselves from "those others."
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #128
163. Good Point
Societal racism certainly inspires self-hatred.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
135. I personally don't
experience much day-to-day racism, but then again I live an a county which is 70% black
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
140. LOL Just tippy-toed over to the white folks thread: Found this jewel

"As a white, I rarely see racism"

B-)
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. LMAO...eom
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #140
143. OMG...
You better stay outta' there before you cause trouble for everybody. *snicker*
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #143
146. I did worse than that

I tippy-toed on out and started a whole new thread of trouble

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #146
152. I know, you're a bad influence.
;-)
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #152
153. Dontcha just
LOVE IT???? GOOOO DF!!! :loveya:
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #153
162. oh, I am the rollicking and mischievous one, all right ;)

when they are rested, I will agitate them further

:evilgrin:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
157. Can't answer
because I'm white, but I do have a personal connection to the issue, and I can only say I hate racism when it is practiced by anyone no matter their color. Unfortunately, our country has a long way to go on this problem.

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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
165. kick
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:16 AM
Response to Reply #165
166. You actually kicked this...
I get the distinct impression race is a taboo discussion around here. Oh' it'll get initial interest alright, but it doesn't seem to inspire meaningful dialogue, just superfical observations and dismissals.

It's more like, "enough already with you whining people!" *lol*
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alphafemale Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #166
167. Yeah.kicked it for hubby. He's doing a talk on institutionalized racism.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 07:25 AM by alphafemale
Amazing that the shit exists even here.
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pdx_prog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
168. I have always believed strongly
That people are responsible for everything in their lives. The "Victim" mentality in this country is mind blowing. Everybody wants to blame something else for their failures so they do not have to take responsiblity for anything. In just about every bad situation in your life you can blame something or somebody and be the victim. On the other hand, you can be responsible and look at it as "what could I have done to change things", or "what did I do to contribute to the outcome". The only two areas I think you can argue this is with child abuse and racism. I am originally from the Memphis area, and hate is still very much alive and well in the south. I was listening to a rock radio station there via the internet and they were referring to their "black listener list". I wrote to their guestbook and ask them why they had a black listener list. They flamed me back, told me that they seen it as making fun of racism. I wrote them again, told them it was, in fact pure racism, then they deleted all of my messages and locked me out of the site!
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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
169. Re-creation of "Black Like Me"
Joshua Solomon wondered the same thing, so he re-created John Gribben's journey as a black man in Black Like Me in his updated version Black Like Me '94. You can read it at www.mdcbowen.org/p2/rm/white/solomon.html
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