need some Clinton info, please

[NewJeffCT]

Thank goodness for this site (and, a few others I have found) after searching for a news alternative to the mainstream. I was inspired by Bill O'Reilly's lawsuit against Al Franken to search out this site and others to find some sanity.

But, I need a few good responses for a debate against a moderate Republican friend of mine... first off - he was angry about the Clinton pardons of that Rich fellow (and others) and also exchanging missile technology with China in exchange for campaign $. What can I say to him that would defend those acts?

I've already got him angry about Haliburton and Bush not attending funerals of dead soldiers (he was in the military), and he likes Dean's pro-NRA stance.. so, I'm hoping to convert him if I can explain some of Clinton/Gore's acts.

Thanks

[CBHagman]

1. Ask him if he's angry for GHWB's pardons of Iran-contra figures and ..

...terrorist Orlando Bosch. Yes, I realize that wasn't what you asked, but Iran-contra involved -- surprise, surprise -- negotiating with terrorists (a real no-no, even back in the '80s) and sending literally hundreds of arms to the Iranians (another no-no) and funding an illegal war in Central America (another no-no, and Congress even passed a law to emphasize that). The Christmas Eve pardons of people under investigation were pretty rancid and a lovely way to cover the outgoing administration's hindquarters.

Then ask what he knows about Marc Rich and in how much danger Marc Rich places people's lives and limbs. I'll bet all he's heard is the huffing and puffing from columnists who were shocked, shocked! that Clinton pardoned someone whose ex-wife was a donor to the Democrats.

I think the technology-to-China matter was debunked, but I'll have to do my Google homework on that.

[La_Serpiente]

2. *Dig*Dig*

I don't know anything about the rich thing reall.

We exchanged missle technology with China? Tell him that is hogwash. If Clinton ever did that, he would be in jail right now. In fact, you tell him to come up with proof because I sure the hell didn't hear that before.

Hmm...We usually help each other on this site for small things. But finding out things about Clinton and Gore is not that hard. Just type some stuff in and you'll see.

Well, here is his bio from the Whtie House

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bc42.html

[realFedUp]

3. The EP-3 grounded in China

on Bush's watch...with the hostage taking.
That plane provided interesting info.

[redqueen]

16. I was going to mention that plane stunt.

This was met with relatively little outrage, despite the fact that this basically meant that we were handing them our latest technology in spy planes. :mad:

[Atman]

4. Tell your friend...

The Rich pardon, heinous as he may feel it was, was done on the way out the door, not in the beginning. You may consider it rationalizing, and I agree to an extent it is. The Rich pardon seemed stinky, but it followed eight years of peace and prosperity. Contrast that to Chimpy...right out of the gate, payola, corruption, secret deals, no bid contracts, and it is costing the country trillions in cash and damage to our brand equity.

Tell your friend Rich was a dick, and Bill shouldn't have pardoned him.

But what does that have to do with Bill's record of achievement as president, and how does it contrast with Bush's?

I think the "trading missile technology for campaign contributions" is a very Limbauvian way to describe the situation.

Have your friend rent this movie, then speculate as to what Clinton actually sold, and why. No one really knows, do we?

http://www.flipsidemovies.com/deterrence.html

[Atman]

7. Links...

I had this bookmarked from a while ago. These don't appear to have been updated recently, but we are talking about history, so it shouldn't matter much..

http://www.perkel.com/politics/clinton/accomp.htm

http://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/New/New_Markets_Nov/factsheets/famcom.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. I don't know how much

of this you can use but, a Clinton Historian gave it to me. I like to share it any time I can because I LOVE the man. Here ya go.

Clinton Policies

Tried to get Universal Health Care
National Health Care Costs rising at 10% per annum. Cut to 3%
Deficit Reduction Package
Crime Bill
100,000 cops on street—crime down down down
Welfare Reform-- Mend do not end. GOP helped bit time
80% increase in child welfare payments
Job Growth-Record 236,000 per month. (Reagan/Bush 167,000)
Largest percentage of Americans working in history
Largest Home Ownership in history
Record number of small business formations
Tax Cut for 15 million working families
Family and Medical Leave Act
Defense Reinvest and Conversion—Bush enjoying weapons created by Clinton
Direct loan programs for students
Guts to put promises in a book "Putting People First"-58 promises in book. Took action on 56 in first two years.
Second best record in history for getting legislation through Congress in first to years. LBJ number one.
Reinvented Government—cut payroll
Fewest number of civilians on federal payroll in 36 years
Attacked cop killing nasty rifle association.
Attacked the cancer inducing tobacco industry
Promoted a global effort to ban abusive forms of child labor
Loan 12.8 Billion to Mexico. Made 800 Million profit. Kept Mexico afloat.
Wash. Post kept list of campaign promises. 162. Took action on 96% in first two years.
Took on prejudice toward other Americans in military
Took on his own Southern Baptist Church
Hard smart work in Middle East and Bosnia-Kosovo
Honored with all of the following:
Dove of Peace Award
Rabin-Peres Peace Award
Gandhi Peace Award
Order of Good Hope Award
Nominated for Nobel Peace Award
Northern Ireland Peace Agreement
Lifeaholics of America Award for Quarter Century "Working for a Life Not Just A Living".
First President to visit Northern Ireland
Cleanup of Toxic sites. Record
Increasing weekly earnings
Shoo Shoo Saddam get away from Kuwait
Stopping Haitians from drowning enroute to freedom
First to visit South Africa
First to make a determined effort to help the African continent come together and grow together
Taxing top 1.2% of very wealthy to get Zoom Zoom Boom economy
Stopping Republicans in the House from raiding Medicare of 181 Billion
Stopping Republicans raid on Medicaid
Stopping Republicans raid on education
Stopping Republicans attack on environment
Largest increase in Education funding since GI Bill
Increased funding for Head Start
Nafta.. A success until the Peso went south
Submitting 8 budgets close to rate of inflation
Brady Bill
Gaat
Assault Weapons Ban
Telling Japan "You take our auto parts or we will apply tariffs on you
California Desert Protection
Forest Management Plan for Northwest
Restoration of Florida Everglades
Preservation of land in Utah
Major increase in funding for homeless
Motor Voter Act
Lobbying Reform Effort. Handshake with Newt who reneged
Pressure to get Campaign Finance Reform.
National Export Strategy. Unbelievable success.
Over 250 Trade pacts
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Pact
Summit of Americas
Super 301
Chemical Weapons Ban Treaty.
Bottom Up Review of Military
Agreement with Cuba to stop flow of immigrants to USA.
Ameri-Corps
Reduced Nuclear Threat Around the World
Community Banking Act
FEMA used as an active participant and a leader in disaster relief
Tax on well off social security beneficiaries
100,000 new teachers effort
5,000 new classroom effort
50% of classes thru K-12 on internet
Fourth Graders improvement on world tests
Lifetime Learning Opportunity Program
Controls on Spending and Borrowing
Pension Protection Act of 1994
Record high consumer confidence
Very, very, very low Misery Index
National Agenda on Racial Prejudices
First to get African-American unemployment under 10%
Balanced Budget
Record Corporate profits
Record Bank profits
Record Savings and Loan profits
Never whining despite non-sop smears and attacks
Not having a Mean Bone in his body per Historian David Maraniss
Not knowing how to hate
Classing others as "opponents" not "enemies"
Inviting your attackers to the White House functions
Inviting your defeated opponent Bob Dole to visit troops at Christmas
A national attack on hate crimes
Fighting to protect "legal" immigrants from Republicans in the House.
Fighting hard for Fast Track legislation
Kennedy and Kassenbaum Portability of Insurance
Lowest interest rates in 30 years
Allowing millions of homeowners to refinance home loans at lower (much) rates
Lowest unemployment in 25 years
Lowest inflation in 25 years
Lowest welfare rolls in 27 years
Lowest crime Rates in 25 years
First balanced budget sent to Congress in 29 years
Protecting worker pensions (repeat?)
Opposed ban on "Late Term Abortions"
A stock market which passed a 1,000 mark six times
Greatest growth in federal revenues in history
Played Saxophone and Smoked Peace Pipe, instead of beating War Drums like____.
One of History's all time workers for Peace
President in a year when Fortune Magazine classified it as "Greatest Economy in the History of the world"
Popularity jump in the midst of a scandal.
President with highest peacetime popularity in Asia, Africa, Russia and Europe.
Highest popularity of any president at end of fifth year in office
One of the most highly regarded First Lady in History.
One of the most highly regarded Vice-President in History

[Catherine Vincent]

6. Tell your friend that Clinton is old news!

And that he needs to be worried about that sorry bastard by the name of Bush* squatting in the white house now!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

8. for your friend

tell him the Rich pardon was inexcusable, and that you are arguing principles, not that Clinton is a saint.

Regarding the missile technology - that was Hughes corporation.
snip
"Amid these bitter exchanges, Hughes received Commerce Department approval to discuss its theory of the mishap with the Chinese -- but only vaguely, so as not to disclose rocketry data that could assist Beijing in developing military missiles. Hughes officials said their conversations with the Chinese were very general."
snip
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/hughes120998.htm


Remind your co-worker that Clinton was nearly 4 years ago and that "Well, look what Clinton did. . . " is just a distraction from the real argument. The real argument is whether or not our country is getting better or worse under George W. Bush, and perhaps more importantly, does Bush's action measure up to Bush's rhetoric. You didn't find Clinton or his supporters blaming Bush I for anything, Clinton "moved ahead" ("move ahead" is a favorite Bush term, despite the fact that it implies progressivism rather than conservatism).

On the Rich thing, remind your friend how good of friends Ken Lay and George W. Bush were and ARE. Remind your co-worker of the connections between Cheney and Halliburton - and the "co-incidence" of fighting a war in a country with a massive oil supply, and a decidedly anti-free-market no-bid contract. Remind your friend of the SAUDI attack on america on 9/11, and remind your friend that Bush is great old pals with the Saudis. If nothing more, inform your friend that having Bush root out the Saudi sources of terror is kind of like brushing your teeth with pure cane sugar.

[Individualist]

9. Ask your friend

if he's angry that Shrub's lies about Iraq resulted in the deaths of hundreds of our military men and women along with thousands of Iraqis.

[sangh0]

10. Links

The Bush dynasty and the Cuban criminals
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,851913,00.html

"The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests. ..."

2 Nations Report Anti-Castro Exiles Have Plotted Many Terrorist Acts
http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/americas/102076cuba-airliner.html

"Venezuelan and United States authorities reported today that a group of anti-Castro Cuban exiles had recently plotted a "vast" number of terrorist actions in the hemisphere, using connections with top-ranking Venezuelan Government figures to protect themselves.

The Venezuelan authorities said the "terrorist actions" planned by the Cuban exiles were aimed at diplomatic and commercial installations of the Government of Prime Minister Fidel Castro in seven countries and against countries and individuals friendly to Cuba....

The Venezuelan police subsequently arrested Mr. Posada and Orlando Bosch, 49 years old, a Cuban exile and the reputed leader of the exile groups opposed to the Castro Government"

Orlando Bosch was pardoned by GHW Bush. Google "Orlando Bosch"

The Bush dynasty and the Cuban criminals
New book reveals links of two presidents and the governor of Florida with exiled hardliners
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,851913,00.html

"The brother of President George Bush, the Florida governor, Jeb Bush, has been instrumental in securing the release from prison of militant Cuban exiles convicted of terrorist offences, according to a new book. The Bush family has also accommodated the demands of Cuban exile hardliners in exchange for electoral and financial support, the book suggests.
Last year, after September 11, while the justice department announced a sweep of terrorist suspects, Cubans convicted of terrorist offences were being released from US jails with the consent of the Bush administration, according to the book, Cuba Confidential: Love and Vengeance in Miami and Havana, by Ann Louise Bardach, the award-winning investigative journalist who has covered Cuban and Miami politics for the New York Times and Vanity Fair.

The Bush family connections go back to 1984 when Jeb Bush began a close association with Camilo Padreda, a former intelligence officer with the Batista dictatorship overthrown by Fidel Castro....

...Most controversially, at the request of Jeb, Mr Bush Sr intervened to release the convicted Cuban terrorist Orlando Bosch from prison and then granted him US residency.

According to the justice department in George Bush Sr's administration, Bosch had participated in more than 30 terrorist acts. He was convicted of firing a rocket into a Polish ship which was on passage to Cuba. He was also implicated in the 1976 blowing-up of a Cubana plane flying to Havana from Venezuela in which all 73 civilians on board were killed. ..."

"Politics" by Grover Norquist
The Natural Conservatives
Muslims deliver for the GOP
http://www.atr.org/opeds/tas/tas0601.html

"George W. Bush was elected President of the United States of America because of the Muslim vote.

The what?

That's right, the Muslim vote. There are roughly six million Muslim-Americans. Hard data on their voting habits is surprisingly hard to come by, because national polling groups do not yet include "Muslim" as a full-fledged religious category (Protestant, Catholic, Jew, and "other'). But according to surveys by national Muslim groups, Bush won more than 70 percent of Muslims who voted. In Florida, that totaled 55,000 people, who, according to an exit poll by the Tampa Bay Islamic Center, favored Bush over Gore by 20 to 1. According to this exit poll, Bush got 88 percent of the vote to Gore's four percent, with eight percent voting for Nadar. The margin of victory for Bush over Gore in the Muslim vote was 46,200, many times greater than his statewide margin of victory. The Muslim vote won Florida for Bush.... "

Arrested prof was guest of Bush at White House
Al-Arian had photo taken with president despite suspicion of links to terror groups
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31172

"A controversial professor who was arrested by federal agents in Tampa, Fla., yesterday had sufficient political connections to be invited to the White House in late May or early June 2001, three months before the al-Qaida attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and to have a photograph taken with President George W. Bush, Insight has learned...."

FBI raids pro-Republicans
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4380933,00.html

"The target of an anti-terrorist raid in the United States last week provided funds for an Islamic group with close ties to the Republican party and the White House.

The Safa trust, a Saudi-backed charity, has provided funds for a political group called the Islamic Institute, which was set up to mobilise support for the Republican party. It shares an office in Washington with the Republican activist Grover Norquist.

The institute, founded in 1999 to win influence in the Republican party, has helped to arrange meetings between senior Bush officials and Islamic leaders, according to the report in Newsweek magazine. Its s chairman, Khaled Saffuri, and Mr Norquist cooperated to arrange the meetings. ..."

[sangh0]

22. Don't defend Clinton

Attack Bush*

[Larry Gude]

11. NewJeff...

...I guess I must have missed the part where you were looking for Clinton Cheerleaders.

As to your question, responses to the pardons and missile technology:

The Rich business is tawdry, petty stuff. This is concession ground here.

The missile stuff is pretty ugly as well and a lot more worrisome. Do a search using 'Loral Aerospace", "Bernard Shwartz". There is plenty to read, so, go to it and make up your own mind.

Sounds like you are holding your own, so concede the bad stuff. Arguing Clintons acheivements as reason to dismiss the bad stuff is going to go over no better than him trying to argue to you that Shrub is without failings.

The Dean appeal is as the stright shooter and THAT will go further than making excuses. Hell, tell him Clinton and Dean don't like each other. That'll probably do it right there!

[NewJeffCT]

12. Sorry, I did not explain fully

When I asked him why he voted for Bush over Gore in 2000 after we had such a good economy, etc, and one of the reasons he gave me was he was upset over the selling of missile technology to China in exchange for campaign contributions (or whatever the story was... I'm not quoting him exactly)

[Larry Gude]

NewJeff...

...I was just being sarcastic about all the "yeah but what about this!!" posts you were getting.

Sounds like you are having meaningful conversation with a friend who is looking for good reasons to support somebody you support and it sounds like you are making a good argument save a few points that really concern your friend.

All of that success goes out the window, in my opinion, if you start arguing that X excuses y because he'll just do the same thing and you'll end up attacking each other and agreeing to disagree.

[bobbieinok]

14. Hailey Barbour, new rep gov of MS, as chairman of RNC

received millions of $ from mainland China to funnel to rep candidates.

Technology.... the same reps screaming about this AT ALMOST the SAME TIME wanted fed exemptions for companies in their states to trade with China; many of these were computer and tech companies.

.....If there had been any REAL evidence of this, it would have been in impeachment hearings and presentation.

Rich.... his lawyer (or some major aide) working for a Clinton pardon became part of Cheney's WH group. So ....Rich was such a bad guy??????????????????

[JHB]

17. That's a little more specific

In their neverending struggle to blame Bill Clinton personally for everything, the Republicans freely mixed three different matters in order to claim (or at least strongly imply, a la what W does with Saddam, 9/11, bin Laden, and WMDs) that the Clintons were selling secrets to China to fatten their campaign coffers:

1) nuclear secrets obtained by China in the 80's when Reagan & Bush were courting them, something that didn't come to light until Clinton's administration, but after the arrest of Wen Ho Lee the Right used it to accuse Clinton of being lax on security;

2) The release by sattelite-maker (and Clinton-contributor) Loral Corp. of sensitive technical data to China in the course of an investigation into the loss of a Loral-built sattelite launched (almost) by a Chinese rocket. This was a real issue and in 2002 Loral was fined $20 million for the release, but following their pattern in the Waco hearings, the Republicans distorted real matters worthy of investigation into another "Kill Bill" circus.

3) The fundraising scandal with Al Gore at the Buddhist Temple.

Right wingnuts (with the blessing of and repetition by the Republicans) have free-associated these into the charge that Clinton
sold secrets for funds. In every case, Republicans have distorted the matter, undercutting the actual resolution of problems or prosecution of individuals, in order to gain cheap anti-Clinton headlines and "buzz" (successfully too, since your friend there is an example of their handiwork).

If he wouldn't vote for Gore due to this allegation, point out to him that the Republicans made political hay of it to the point of obstructing justice.

Then ask him about which party he's going to vote for next time.

[NewJeffCT]

19. Gore/Temple

Now, what exactly happened with Gore at the Buddhist temple?

[nannygoat]

20. Check these out

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh111802.shtml
http://www.dailyhowler.com/h031700_1.shtml
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh022103.shtml

Here's a good one about the Internet...
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh120302.shtml

[NewJeffCT]

24. obstructing justice

Thanks to everybody for their responses - how did the Republicans obstruct justice?

[underpants]

13. The LAST person to talk to Clinton about the Rich pardon was.......

I.E. "Scooter" Libby Rich's lawyer.

Do you know what Libby does now?

He is Dick Cheney's chief of staff.

Rich was well rich and very well connected, on both sides but he gave more money to the Dems. Concede that and then ask you Enron gave 72% of their campaign money to. Oh and W flew ona Enron company jet before he got the Repube nomination, but his campaign paid Enron back for it...........according to Enron's books (audited by Arhtur Andersen).

[pansypoo53219]

15. at least inform him

that that Katrina leung(sp?)that chinese spy WAS A REPUBLICAN FUND RAISER. and not a democrat.

[Zero Gravitas]

18. The Rich Pardon was a huge mistake.

The missile tech for campaign money is pure bullshit made up by the right wing anti-Clinton scandal machine. Remind him that George herbert Walker Bush pardoned people who yest to be charged with any crime to cover up his own involvement in the Iran/Contra treason.

[DDiamond]

21. Rich bought justice, but it was justice.

The Rich pardon was not a mistake. Did you read what the legal scholars were saying about the actual deal while the right wing press was braying? I was told (and I may be wrong) that the evidence was that Rich was innocent to some of the charges, and those were the charges Clinton pardoned him for - as part of a deal where Rich faced penalies for what he was actually guilty for. If so, that's exactly what the pardon is *FOR*, and Clinton used it properly.

Now, in addition, Rich had donated money to Clinton's campaign. Yet the evidence was that the Rich pardon was correct on it's own merits. You're supposed to get justice wether you donate or not, but also having donated shouldn't mean justice should be denied you.

[nomatrix]

23. The Consortium News

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/021601a.html
by Robert Parry
This link is to his article on Clinton and China

Award-winning reporter Robert Parry broke the Iran/Contra scandal, the October Surprise and other major stories while at AP and Newsweek. Today he works as an independent and publishes The Consortium, an investigative newsletter.

It will take days to read through all of his articles but worth it. You will actually rethink everything you ever knew about history and wonder how anyone could believe what is going on now is good for us.

Greg Palast
http://www.gregpalast.com/
"The Best Democracy Money can Buy" Greg Palast.

Investigative journalist. When you are debating anyone who starts off with "Clinton did....." ask them what there sources are.

One more link to China
http://www.fas.org/news/china/1998/980518-loral.htm